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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Jack2023a on Thursday 19 March 09 11:35 GMT (UK)
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John Ward (m) Judith Reece Parramatta in November 1845.
They had 4 children
1. John ----Penrith NSW
2. Alfred William-----Wellington NSW
3. Frances Sarah----Wellinton NSW
4. James Davidson (Joseph)---Wellington NSW
Sometime after the birth of the last children 1852 and January 1856. . . Their father John Ward went missing, died but there is no death record for him. His wife remarried in January 1856.
I have searched death records for John Ward but no record can be found.
It beleived that John Ward (Snr) was licencee of a hotel in Wellington area 1844.
Just wondering if anyone can help with any other anvenue to look for John Ward. . .
There are still Wards in Wellington area - but none of us can find out where or what happened to the JOHN WARD husband of Judith Reece.
A Mystery. . . . .
Jack
Australia
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There are a number of deaths in Victoria in that time frame for John Ward.
Do you have where and when he was born, and his parents names?
Jenn
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Hi
That is also a mystery. . . the name of his parents. No one in the family knows if he was born in Australia or England.
However - another link to the family suggests that he was born in England 1821 - parents William & Ann
But this has not been proven yet. . .
The birth certificates of his children - he was an inn-keeper,
On the marriage certificates of his sons, his occupation was recorded as a teamster . . . .
Their youngest son was taken as a child by a relative, taken from Wellington area to Hunter Valley, while his brothers grew up in the Wellington area.
Its all a mystery. . . . . .
Jack
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I believe the John Ward you are looking for is the brother of William Ward, the son of William Ward and Ann Douglas who lived in Long Lawford. William arrived in Sydney on the "China" on the 7th September 1841, The next I can find of William is marrying Ann Stevens at Montefiores (Wellington) on 30 August 1852. John Ward (Born 1921) arrived here sometime in that period. John and Williams sister, Charlotte, arrived here on the Simonds on the 14th April 1855.She married a James Rogerson from Dubbo in the same year. John Ward was an Inn Keeper at Montefiores (Wellington NSW). The Inn was known as Wards Inn. William Ward gathered up quite a bit of property. My sticking point is that I cannot find John Ward, arriving in Australia, but I believe it must have been around the same time as his brother, William. As a bit of interest the Inn still stands and is now a private home. (http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/_Zoomify/2011/D13950/a2824837.html) The Inn is the building at the end of the street in the center.
Jim
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Welcome to Rootschat, Jim. Great photo!
It doesn't add anything to your knowledge and you probably have this marriage notice, January 1856 for Judith WARD, widow and William McKENNA, by Special License, both of Montefiores.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62052358
I cannot see the birth index entry for the first child you mention:
John ----Penrith NSW
From NSW BMD
Frances F WARD 2311/1848 V18482311 34A
Parents: John , Judith
And FamilySearch has this information forFrances:
Frances Sarah WARD, b 8 Dec, 1848 (FamilySearch), baptised Bathurst 21/1/1849
NSW BMD Index:
William A WARD 2446/1850 V18502446 37A
Parents John, Judith
NSW BMD Index
4. James Davidson (Joseph)---Wellington NSW
James D WARD, 2274/1852 V18522274 38A
Parents: John, Judith
Again - you probably have all of this.
As John is listed as a 'teamster' he may well have died far from Wellington without anyone knowing his name, or he may have changed his name. However the minister must have been convinced that John was dead to have signed off that Judith was a widow, especially as it was not a large community, and you would think that the circumstances would be known in the district.
Judith
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A possible sighting of John WARD in 1854 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article62047813
Five Pounds Reward,
LOST from Fredericks Valley in April 1853, a iron grey horse, branded JM on near shoul-
der ; any person delivering the same to Mr. Carr, Inkeeper, Frederick's Valley shall receive
a reward of £3, or £5 if delivered to John Ward, Montefiores, Wellington.
Ros
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Thank you for the above information. I don't have a lot of information on John Ward as I am a maternal descendant of his brother William. I have all the background information on the Wards back to John and Elizabeth Ward in Warwickshire in 1735. Most of the information I have is from the Parish records, but from the mid 1800's, certificates mainly in Australia. My interest in John was revived by a query from a descendant of John Ward and Sarah Kearns. I will keep searching for his arrival here to substantiate the information I have.
Jim
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The area is plagued by floods and as a teamster he could have been carried away. No death listed but possibly a Coronial Inquiry? You would need to check Trove Newspapers for notices.
Neil
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Hi Jim,
Welcome !
Yes, the floods, the flooding rains, the droughts .... the contrasts.... Neil's right .... a teamster basing his family in Wellington could have be lost in the 1850s just about anywhere even into Queensland, or down across the Murray in Victoria or over in South Australia .... or he may have been killed in a mining accident on the gold fields, or succumbed to measles.
May I ask if anyone has checked the actual parish registers for a marriage of John WARD to see if there's any 'clues' recorded by the reverend about John. Sometimes a 'ship of arrival' may be mentioned there. Also, if John Ward's wife was a regular churchgoer in Wellington, perhaps the clergyman kept a 'family sheet', or prepared a new one for Judith Ward's next marriage ..... These came in very handy for those clergy on 'circuit' in the sparseness of western and far western NSW.
By way of explanation .... C of E clergy were often keepers of 'family sheets' of information on their 'flock'. And, at RChat's NSW Resources Board there's live links to the ones for up around Newcastle NSW .... now obviously Wellington's C of E 'family sheets' would not be held by the Newcastle Diocese, but perhaps the Bathurst diocese office may know of their location? :)
Here's the link to the NSW Resources Board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
and here's one of the links to the Christ Church Cathedral's digitised registers:
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
JM
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Hi All,
I have someone checking the parish records in Bathurst, their second child was baptised and listed as Bathurst but, the pastor from Bathurst did the rounds before a church was built in Wellington, so I would assume they would not have travelled to Bathurst but he (the pastor) came to them.
I also have a book on the Taylor /Ward family, written by Geoff Taylor and published in 2000. Upon talking to the authors wife , I was informed most of the information was obtained 1983 on a trip to England and later that year in NSW. The book is called Lathe, Anvil, Pick and Plough and I have found a lot of the information on the Ward family from the early years (1800's) is incorrect. I am on another tangent now so we will see what comes of that.
Jim
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Marriages solemnized in the Parish of St John Parramatta in the County of Cumberland in the year 1845
John WARD of this parish, Bachelor and Judith REECE of this parish, Spinster, were married in this Church by Banns with consent of Parent this 24th day of November in the year 1845 by me H. H. BOBART
John and Judith both signed, the witnesses made their mark - Samuel WARD and Sarah KERNS both of Parramatta.
My interest in John was revived by a query from a descendant of John Ward and Sarah Kearns.
What's the story there?
Debra :)
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Yes, I have the marriage certificates. My problem and others who have researched this line, is we can't find him arriving here. His brother (if it is him) William, apparently sent him out here after having troubles at home, with the police. There are many J W's who came out as convicts but none seem to be the right age or if they are didn't come from Warwickshire or nearby. I am led to believe he came free but once again, no sign of him.
Debra, once I have confirmation on a few points i will reveal.
Jim
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I am not a relative but I found this story interesting. Now that we have newspapers online it's a whole new ball game. On 4th October 1853 the body of John Ward was found dead at the house of George Young, Clarence Street, Sydney, near the Crispin Arms hotel. The coroner found he died of intemperance. The newspaper article is easy to find on Trove. His friend said he had a wife and had left her. If he was a drinker she may have thrown him out, which would explain why she didn't send the police to look for him. She must have had independent means of support. As John Ward was also using the name John Maxwell the coroner had to decide which name to register the death under. John Maxwell was the one, and you can find the certificate on NSW BD&M. The John Ward mentioned below who lost a horse or something, was not the same one, but probably a relative, as the John Ward we're talking about was long dead. On 21st October 1853 a Supreme Court notice was placed in the newspaper, asking for any relatives, or a wife, of John Ward, to come forward, as he possessed some assets to be distributed. By then it had somehow been established that the correct name was John Ward, not John Maxwell. If any relatives decide to purchase the death certificate of "John Maxwell" (John Ward) I would love to see a copy. Louise
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I don’t understand why, if you have found the Trove articles and a death registration on NSWBDM, you couldn’t have posted the links to them.
I can’t find anything on Trove, or NSWBDM, even using other years, pertaining to that which you have stated. :-\
How do you link the article to the correct missing John?
Do note that Rootschat does not permit the posting of email addresses.
Jamjar
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https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search/result?12
I don't know if that will even work, I think you have to do your own search on NSW BD&M.
John Maxwell aged 36. 910/1853 V1853910 119
Trove
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114835997?searchTerm=maxwell%20AND%20%22john%20ward%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=john+ward+|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1853-01-01|||dateTo=1853-12-31|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||sortby
Best to do your own search for John Ward, 1853. He was mistakenly registered as John Maxwell.
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To search old newspapers, go here.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y
Put in phrase John Ward
Year 1853.
You will find all the newspaper articles including the fact he was using the alias Maxwell and had left his wife.
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To search old newspapers, go here.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y
Put in phrase John Ward
Year 1853.
You will find all the newspaper articles including the fact he was using the alias Maxwell and had left his wife.
I know how to search Trove, and nothing came up. I believe it was because I was putting in 1953. ;)
Jamjar
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I still can’t see how you link this man to the correct missing John?
Jamjar
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James Ward b. 1852 was the last of the children of John Ward and Judith Reece. In 1856, Judith remarried William McKenna. The marriage certificate says Judith was a WIDOW. The marriage celebrant would have to be absolutely sure that she was, and in a small town like Wellington, everyone would have known if she wasn't telling the truth.
So, between 1852 and 1856, a period of 4 years, JOHN WARD DIED. He didn't disappear.
A person who is missing in N.S.W. cannot be presumed dead and a death certificate issued after only 3 or 4 years. It takes many more years than that. So, it makes sense that Judith was in possession of a death certificate.
The newspaper article regarding the death of John Ward states that he was John Ward ALIAS MAXWELL. (Men who left their wives usually used another name because desertion was a criminal offence).
So, firstly, he has the SAME NAME as John Ward. John Ward your ancestor - John Ward who died in Sydney in 1853.
His friend George Young stated that this man was 36 years old. So, a second fact that ties in, he was the RIGHT AGE. Same name, same age!
Another friend, Thomas Clewley, stated at the inquest that he had LEFT HIS WIFE. This fact fits. She had no more children to him after 1852.
John Ward died of intemperance and this FITS THE SITUATION whereby his wife did not complain to police of his desertion - there is nothing in police gazettes saying his wife, or police, were looking for him. She did not want him to come back, or she would have reported it to police.
The death certificate of this JOHN WARD we are speaking of above, appears on N.S.W. BD&M as JOHN MAXWELL, because that was one of the names John Ward was using, to avoid being found.
However in the legal notice published, seeking a wife or relatives, he is named as JOHN WARD, as it must have been decided that was his real name.
So, the reason none of John Ward's descendants have been able to find his death certificate, is that the name has been mistakenly recorded as John Maxwell.
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Good thinking Illawarian :) :)
Theres is a probate packet for John WARD who died 30 september 1853 at NSW State Archives
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
I can photograph this the next time I am there ... it could contain a death certificate and other useful info.
Ros
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I hope it's the younger John Ward then. There was an older one, aged 59 I think, who also died in that year in Sydney. The John Ward I'm talking about died on 4th October aged 36, and his death certificate is mistakenly listed under the surname Maxwell on BD&M. I'll include the article for those who don't know how to search Trove.
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Good thinking Illawarian :) :)
Theres is a probate packet for John WARD who died 30 september 1853 at NSW State Archives
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
I can photograph this the next time I am there ... it could contain a death certificate and other useful info.
Ros
It will NOT contain a death certificate. It may have a record of burial, but as it is for a death in 1853 in NSW ... no d.c.
Civil Registration of bdm events commenced in NSW 1 March 1856. If the NSW BDM index has the letter 'V' in the reference no. It is NOT a certificate. The 'V' series are the Early Church Records and are scant in respect of family history.
The Probate Packet should have good clues to help further.
JM
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James Ward b. 1852 was the last of the children of John Ward and Judith Reece. In 1856, Judith remarried William McKenna. The marriage certificate says Judith was a WIDOW. The marriage celebrant would have to be absolutely sure that she was, and in a small town like Wellington, everyone would have known if she wasn't telling the truth.
So, between 1852 and 1856, a period of 4 years, JOHN WARD DIED. He didn't disappear.
A person who is missing in N.S.W. cannot be presumed dead and a death certificate issued after only 3 or 4 years. It takes many more years than that. So, it makes sense that Judith was in possession of a death certificate.
The newspaper article regarding the death of John Ward states that he was John Ward ALIAS MAXWELL. (Men who left their wives usually used another name because desertion was a criminal offence).
So, firstly, he has the SAME NAME as John Ward. John Ward your ancestor - John Ward who died in Sydney in 1853.
His friend George Young stated that this man was 36 years old. So, a second fact that ties in, he was the RIGHT AGE. Same name, same age!
Another friend, Thomas Clewley, stated at the inquest that he had LEFT HIS WIFE. This fact fits. She had no more children to him after 1852.
John Ward died of intemperance and this FITS THE SITUATION whereby his wife did not complain to police of his desertion - there is nothing in police gazettes saying his wife, or police, were looking for him. She did not want him to come back, or she would have reported it to police.
The death certificate of this JOHN WARD we are speaking of above, appears on N.S.W. BD&M as JOHN MAXWELL, because that was one of the names John Ward was using, to avoid being found.
However in the legal notice published, seeking a wife or relatives, he is named as JOHN WARD, as it must have been decided that was his real name.
So, the reason none of John Ward's descendants have been able to find his death certificate, is that the name has been mistakenly recorded as John Maxwell.
We need to remember that 'widow' in that era in NSW had a broader meaning, so basically a woman without a partner, but with children to support ... it is also possible that the clergy did not require documentary proof that she was a 'widow'. NSW Marriage laws did not require documentary proof in that era. The clergy wrote the status (widow or spinster) on their own parish register.
Divorce did not come to NSW until 1873. You may find that in NSW that the usual community meaning of 'widow' contracted to become strictly a woman who could prove her husband had died, only after Queen Victoria became a widow. (ADD her Prince Albert died December 1861).
JM
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NSW BDM Burial Record INDEX
1853, John MAXWELL, age 36 Volume 119, Line 910,
Volume 119, Roman Catholic registers.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856
JM
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Judith kindly provided the following live link to Trove's digitised newspapers back earlier in this thread...
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62052358 for the Bathurst newspaper article dated 26 January 1856.
The Marriage is indexed at NSW BDM as William McKENNA and Judith WARD, in 1855, Volume 43B, line 463 and for marriage in the registers with code MM. Volume 43B is for C of E marriages. MM is C of E, Montefiores, Wellington and that marriage is part of the Early Church Records.
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Documents/early-church-codes.pdf
JM
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Cables clergy index info on Rev William WATSON has him at Wellington from 1831-45 with the CMS involved in the Aboriginal Missions in the Wellington Valley, and then from 1845-1857 as the Reverend in the Wellington Valley, he became one of the Reverends in William Bailey’s ‘Free Church of England in NSW’ in 1857. http://anglicanhistory.org/aus/cci/index.pdf
I suspect that that clerical connection to William Bailey would be pointing to Rev Watson at Wellington having a ‘broad’ interpretation to the word ‘widow’. Bailey’s marriage shops have been discussed a number of times on the Australia board here at RChat.
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/bailey-william-1731.
JM
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It doesn't matter how broad his interpretation of the word 'widow' was, if John Ward wasn't dead, Judith wasn't free to remarry, and all three involved could go to prison. The first prosecution for bigamy occurred in N.S.W. in 1818 and you'll find many cases on Trove. These three weren't dishonest people, and there's no way they would have broken the law that way.
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It doesn't matter how broad his interpretation of the word 'widow' was, if John Ward wasn't dead, Judith wasn't free to remarry, and all three involved could go to prison. The first prosecution for bigamy occurred in N.S.W. in 1818 and you'll find many cases on Trove. These three weren't dishonest people, and there's no way they would have broken the law that way.
There are many many instances of NSW marriages where it would seem to 21st century eyes that there ought to have been a civil prosecution for Bigamy, yet there was not. Further investigation usually brings the family history buffs to the various statute laws of NSW, and for the usual meaning of the word 'widow' and the NSW marriage Acts. Trove is an excellent resource, and I draw your attention to Lachlan Macquarie's general orders that were frequently published in the Sydney Gazette. In particular, one (of many) regarding marriages... It remained in effect until 1 March 1856 and the introduction of civil registration.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/627938 3 March 1810
Of course, the English statute laws had no effect on NSW from 19 July 1823, unless the particular statute expressly defined it to be effective in NSW, as per Sir Francis Forbes determination as Chief Justice of NSW.
I think you will find that one of the first prosecutions in NSW for the civil crime of Bigamy was earlier than 1818. I have info on a guilty verdict in 1816 for an offence dating from early 1815. I think the male got 3 years H.L. at a secondary penal settlement, and time in gaol. I have other examples where no charges were laid despite the newspapers noting the police had been notified of an apparent bigamy.
Perhaps there's some useful info at the following thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=648372.0
which mentions an update to Henry Finlay's paper
https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20050804235330/http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/34360/20050715-0000/www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html
May I please ask how you know with certainty that the John MAXWELL aka John WARD who died aged 36 in 1853 was the chap who married Judith REECE? And also who (oops, edit to ::) ) how do you know with certainty that the Judith WARD who married in 1855 with William McKENNA was the widow of that same John WARD?
By 1853 Wellington Valley was a popular transient locality ... afterall there had been the 1851 discovery of gold on the Turon which then joins up with the Crudine and then flows into the Macquarie, and Wellington is one of the towns along the Macquarie. Those western goldfields were overflowing with people from various places around the world. The population of NSW increased from less than 200,000 to more than 350,000 between 1851 and 1856.
JM
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I have seen entries from Trove where a woman has stated something to the effect that if their husband doesn’t contact them within 3 months, they intend to remarry.
They did do so and lived happily ever after, free from prosecution for bigamy.
Jamjar
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I explained in my previous post. Instead of explaining again, why don't you give me all the reasons why you think it isn't him. It can't be him because....??? A search of Trove newspapers from 1840 to 1860 shows that the word 'widow' in Australia in those days always meant a woman whose husband had died. I can't find a single article where 'widow' meant a woman separated from her husband and I stand by my statement that it would be illegal for Judith to remarry if John Ward were alive. I also do not believe she lied in order to remarry. It was only a little over 2 years between the birth of James Ward and the remarriage of his mother. What would Judith do if John Ward reappeared to visit his children after she told everyone he was dead! Imagine the scandal. She wouldn't do that. The marriage wasn't secret or shameful. There was a notice in the newspaper. Since John Ward died between 1851 and 1855, these are the choices you have in N.S.W.: John Ward died 1854 infant; John W. Ward died 1855 4 months; John Ward died 1853 age 59; or John Ward died 1853 aged 36. Which one do you think it is? Or, if this whole scenario is too disturbing, you can just believe whatever you like. No-one can make you change your mind. I'm not trying to force you to change your mind. You're free to believe whatever. If you prefer to think he disappeared into the sunset, no worries.
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I just had a look and I can't find any - maybe someone could find some of these notices for me?
I have seen entries from Trove where a woman has stated something to the effect that if their husband doesn’t contact them within 3 months, they intend to remarry.
They did do so and lived happily ever after, free from prosecution for bigamy.
Jamjar
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I explained in my previous post. Instead of explaining again, why don't you give me all the reasons why you think it isn't him. It can't be him because....??? A search of Trove newspapers from 1840 to 1860 shows that the word 'widow' in Australia in those days always meant a woman whose husband had died. I can't find a single article where 'widow' meant a woman separated from her husband and I stand by my statement that it would be illegal for Judith to remarry if John Ward were alive. I also do not believe she lied in order to remarry. It was only a little over 2 years between the birth of James Ward and the remarriage of his mother. What would Judith do if John Ward reappeared to visit his children after she told everyone he was dead! Imagine the scandal. She wouldn't do that. The marriage wasn't secret or shameful. There was a notice in the newspaper. Since John Ward died between 1851 and 1855, these are the choices you have in N.S.W.: John Ward died 1854 infant; John W. Ward died 1855 4 months; John Ward died 1853 age 59; or John Ward died 1853 aged 36. Which one do you think it is? Or, if this whole scenario is too disturbing, you can just believe whatever you like. No-one can make you change your mind. I'm not trying to force you to change your mind. You're free to believe whatever. If you prefer to think he disappeared into the sunset, no worries.
I am not related to the family. I am not drawing any conclusion as to the status of the couple who married in 1855. But you have not shown that the Judith Ward who married in 1855 to William McKenna had been the widow of the chap (John WARD) who died aged 36 in 1853.
I am absolutely sure that the NSW BDM does not have, nor has it ever claimed to have, every bdm record for every bdm event in NSW, particularly for the pre civil registration period.
How sure are you that the only choices anyone has in NSW would be those you have typed up?
JM
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I just had a look and I can't find any - maybe someone could find some of these notices for me?
I have seen entries from Trove where a woman has stated something to the effect that if their husband doesn’t contact them within 3 months, they intend to remarry.
They did do so and lived happily ever after, free from prosecution for bigamy.
Jamjar
Next time on the computer, I’ll see if I have saved a copy to file.
Jamjar
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I'm not related either so really, I don't much care either way. But someone said they were going to have a look at the probate packet and that will probably sort it out either way. I don't want to have any further discussion until the probate packet for John Ward died aged 36 has been checked. I'm not going to dig him up and do a DNA test.
I am not related to the family. I am not drawing any conclusion as to the status of the couple who married in 1855. But you have not shown that the Judith Ward who married in 1855 to William McKenna had been the widow of the chap (John WARD) who died aged 36 in 1853.
I am absolutely sure that the NSW BDM does not have, nor has it ever claimed to have, every bdm record for every bdm event in NSW, particularly for the pre civil registration period.
How sure are you that the only choices anyone has in NSW would be those you have typed up?
JM
[/quote]
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Likely you are referring to:
Good thinking Illawarian :) :)
Theres is a probate packet for John WARD who died 30 september 1853 at NSW State Archives
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
I can photograph this the next time I am there ... it could contain a death certificate and other useful info.
Ros
It will NOT contain a death certificate. It may have a record of burial, but as it is for a death in 1853 in NSW ... no d.c.
Civil Registration of bdm events commenced in NSW 1 March 1856. If the NSW BDM index has the letter 'V' in the reference no. It is NOT a certificate. The 'V' series are the Early Church Records and are scant in respect of family history.
The Probate Packet should have good clues to help further.
JM
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I just had a look and I can't find any - maybe someone could find some of these notices for me?
I have seen entries from Trove where a woman has stated something to the effect that if their husband doesn’t contact them within 3 months, they intend to remarry.
They did do so and lived happily ever after, free from prosecution for bigamy.
Jamjar
I am away from home at the moment, but my ancient living rellies know how to keep in touch, so I share the following advertisement from the Maitland Mercury. I should also add that those rellies include retired C of E clergy, retired senior NSW BDM officers, and a retired NSW State Archivist, and a retired National Library of Australia Archivist.... :D :D :D ... One of my parents had 16 siblings, and the other of my parents had 13 siblings who survived to adulthood. (Yes, back before TV, and in an era when it was wasteful to leave 'electric lights' on... ;D )
Whereas my husband, William Everingham, left me, his Wife and child, three years ago, and if he does not return to maintain me and his child, it is my intention to get married within one week from this date. Elza EVERINGHAM Singleton, Oct 19, 1860.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18678736 Maitland Merc 27 Oct 1860. (2nd column)
Likely that new marriage would be NSW BDM reference 2382/1860 with John SMIT/SMITH, registered in the Patricks Plain district. That marriage drills down to 29 October 1860.
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyhistory
:D :D :D
JM
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Well found, JM.
I was on the computer, today, and totally forgot to look for my one. :-\
Jamjar
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'Northern Argus (Rockhampton, Qld. : 1865 - 1874) Sat 9 Aug 1873 Page 3 Notice. IF THOMAS GRIFFIN does not return to me — who am his Wife — within Three Months from this date I intend to marry again. FLORA GRIFFIN. North Rockhampton, August 9th, 1873'
Jamjar
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It seems to me that some contributors to this thread have gone to extraordinary lengths to
challenge a new RC member, where was the RC welcome? ???
As Aristotle once wrote "One swallow does not a summer make"
i.e. one instance of an event does not necessarily indicate a trend.
The two Trove references of a woman intending to remarry while her husband was still alive
do not prove that this was the norm. One of them was from Queensland and separated from NSW
in 1859.
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‘...a new RC member, where was the RC welcome’
If they were a new member I would have welcomed them, but they have been a member since April 2010.
The QLD article was one I had to hand, but there are others. It was purely an example of what went on in Australia, re: remarriage.
I was not ‘challenging’ the idea that the deceased John may be the missing man, I am simply ‘suggesting’ that there is no evidence whatsoever that it is him. He could have changed his name, gone elsewhere in Australia, or overseas. However, it would be excellent for those seeking the correct John if it was the NSW deceased.
Jamjar
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I was not referring to the 'deceased John'. I was referring to the time and energy expended to
'prove' women who were not widows could remarry without prosecution for bigamy. The quoted
instances are statistically insignificant and do not prove that it was the norm. 'Challenge' also
refers to attitude beginning with reply #13. :)
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I see, then I accept that you used the incorrect word for my #13 post. I admit that it is one of my pet peeves, when folk look things up and don’t provide the information found. Why waste other folks time when you have already spent time doing it yourself. I apologise if my tone offended. People person I’m not.
I do consider my next post, where I pointed out my own stupidity, with a wink, was cheery. ;)
I didn’t expend time and energy on proving anything. I simply recalled what I had seen on Trove and what I had on file in my own family tree. I have no doubt that it wasn’t a much used practice, but it did happen and was obviously an accepted practice. Would be great if one could still do it. ;D
In relation to JMs posts, I find them informative and educational. I learn so much from them and don’t see them as challenging the beliefs of others, but rather as offering alternatives to what they are relating to.
Hopefully, the probate file will provide something useful. Dare I say, I have my doubts though. ;) As experienced researchers know, some family history dilemmas are never solved.
Jamjar
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Not the incorrect word Jamjar 'beginning with' means starting there and following on from, that was
what was implied in my 'challenge' statement. You mention your 'pet peeve', we all have those :D
but maybe the Rchatter with only 12 posts up her sleeve didn't realize that :D I did appreciate
her answer to that one ;D
I agree with you regarding JM's posts - I have great respect for her knowledge especially with
regard to NSW, I have told her many times she is second to none. ;D
Regards,
Jen.
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:)
I have had several phone calls from my elderly rellies who have followed this thread over the past couple of days.
Some observations:
The original poster commenced the enquiry over ten years ago, and the last time that RChatter posted on this thread was 19 March 2009, but that RChatter has been posting on other threads this year, and was most recently online just last month. Perhaps this is indicating that they are no longer interested in that John WARD, Wellington NSW.
In September 2016 a new RChatter posted on the thread, made four posts, confirming they have marriage certificates etc, and has not been on RChat since June 2017.
Until Illawarrian posted at reply #12, nothing had been added since Sept 2016. Ros had posted (at reply #5) on 14 Sept 2016 from her search of Trove from a newspaper cutting of 1 July 1854 from the Bathurst Free Press. I mention this post because it seems to me that it is indicating that the elusive John WARD was still alive and at Montefiores, Wellington in July 1854 and was ready to pay £5 reward for the return of an Iron Grey Horse BRANDED JM ... .
A possible sighting of John WARD in 1854 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article62047813
Five Pounds Reward,
LOST from Fredericks Valley in April 1853, a iron grey horse, branded JM on near shoul-
der ; any person delivering the same to Mr. Carr, Inkeeper, Frederick's Valley shall receive
a reward of £3, or £5 if delivered to John Ward, Montefiores, Wellington.
Ros
Branded JM ... could that be J for John and M for Maxwell ? perhaps for the chap who died back in September 1853?
I reiterate, 'widow' had been used throughout much of NSW during the penal era, and into the early civil registration period by the clergy when marrying couples, where the prospective bride already had children with her, but she was not accompanied by her husband. We need to remember that until 1873, clergy had but two choices to write on their parish registers ... Widow or Spinster as there was no such process as Divorce in NSW until 1873. The decision as to what to write was up to the clergy. I have regularly posted about that broad meaning 19th century use of the word 'widow' prior to the 1861 death of Queen Victoria's husband. We need to remember that marriages end by the death of one party but also in the colonies in the early to mid 1800s by other methods ... for example separation of couples could be forced or could be inadvertent or could be contrived or could be by consent.
We also need to remember that the NSW practices I highlighted at a live link in reply #27 did not require any newspaper advertisements for women who were seeking to remarry despite perhaps having an absent husband who was no longer providing maintenance for the family. Trove digitised newspapers is an absolutely magnificant resource, but it is not a definitive family history legal text book on NSW marriage practices pre NSW divorce.
On two significant points both of which I think are worthy of reiteration:
:) Judith REECE's two NSW marriages predate civil registration, and thus whatever documents about those marriages are obtained from NSW BDM will have scant information about her origins, her husband's origins and are NOT marriage certificates, but they are Church of England marriages.
:) John MAXWELL's death in 1853 predates civil registration, and is a Roman Catholic burial. (ADD ... and thus NO d.c. - any burial record will not provide any family history information - no cause of death, no details of any marriage, no parents details - it will note the cemetery :) )
I cannot see that there is any need to request Ros to go to the Archives to obtain copy of the Probate file, just to satisfy the curiosity of RChatters who already know they are not descendants.
JM
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::) ::) ::) Well now I have had a further phone call ... I forgot to mention, sorry :-[ :
At the opening post ... Judith's fourth child was named as James Davidson (Joseph) and born Wellington NSW, in 1852. Davidson - is that pointing to a surname for that lad's dad?
JM
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Aussie Jack is still receiving email notifications to this topic and others but they although they have logged in recently they have not made any replies since May, Maybe they have been poorly ?
Regards
Sarah
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John Ward who married Judith Reece in Parramatta - is still a mystery.
While I do not believe he walked out on Judith and remarried - I do believe he walked out on her (or maybe she turfed him out), which may have been best for both parties involved. A death certificate has never been found, which beyond doubt, connects him with Judith or his family. The John Ward (alias Maxwell) who died in 1853, sounds promising, but is there a connection leading him back to Judith or the Wellington area? The newspaper article: the chap who knew him for 12yrs or so, did state he was married, but he doesn't state if he had children, nor did he state where this John was from. Maybe he only know him when he was in the Parramatta area around the time of his marriage to Judith.
I don't think we can rule him out completely, but I doubt if a connection can be made back to Judith.
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Good to hear from you :)
Earlier in the thread there is a discussion about that John MAXWELL 1853 death, and that there's no mention in NSW police gazettes re any enquiries by Judith re being deserted by John WARD. I gently mention that the NSW police gazettes available online do NOT commence until .... 1854.
The 1850s is a critical decade in NSW history ... it lost much of its territory, it gained huge populations due to gold fever, and it gained parliamentary democracy with a written constitution, ... and all the legislative instruments that give the foundations to governing NSW in this 21st century are developing back then.
JM
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Thanks, it's been too long.
There was no mention in the newspapers either, which is odd, as there were
four children under the age of 7. It's just a mystery.
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Yes,
Trove continues to digitise many newspapers and I notice their digitised version of the Wellington newspapers is 'sparse' err ... 1899 - 1954 for the Wellington Times.
Have you contacted NSW state library to ask what newspapers they may have in their archives that may cover the Wellington district in the 1850 - 1854 years?
Do you have an image of the parish register for Judith's second marriage?
JM
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I haven't looked through the entire newspapers of that area. I do have her second marriage - where she was written down as widow - when she re-married in January 1856. I don't have an actual parish register image.
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Have you checked for the background for the witnesses to 2nd marriage ... were they long term locals ...
JM
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Not really - although one was Joseph Haywood - who's family had property - in the
area and he was licensee of a hotel in Montefiores from 1855 where the Wards/McKenna were from. the other is listed only as R. Evans - didn't look for him/her as of yet.
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Re Joseph HAYWOOD
He was the licencee of the Wellington Inn, Montefiores, at least as early as April 1853, to at least April 1860. As yet, I have not confirmed who was the licencee from June 1849 to April 1853, BUT I think I have figured the connection with the horse branded 'JM' and John WARD :) in 1854.
Joseph MATTHEWS is listed as the publican of the Wellington Inn, Montefiores from 1 November 1847 (or perhaps from June 1847) until at least June 1849. His initials are 'JM' and it is likely a transfer of licence could include handing over the pub's cart and the horse that goes with the cart.
Re R. EVANS
I have not made much headway as yet, BUT ... a Joseph Samuel EVANS back in 1841 was the publican of the Wellington Inn, on the then 'Wellington Road' in the then 'District of Bathurst' ... which from my own recollections of earlier researches was in the 1840s basically 'anywhere' west of the Blue Mountains... :) along the Macquarie and the rivers/creeks/catchments feeding into the Macquarie. :)
Here is the live link to the NSW archives guide and index etc for the Publicans' Licences:
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/publicans-licenses-guide
JM
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Yes, Evans seems to have disappeared, for now.
Re: the JM to Joseph Mathews this maybe so, but the John Ward in the notice in regards to the horse may not be 'the John Ward' - as there were other Wards in the area before the arrival of John and Judith. . . .. whether there is another John Ward, other than their son, who would have been still only a kid. . . is unknown at the moment
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I know, and I have been unable to isolate that 1854 John Ward sighting... but I will keep chipping away... :)
JM