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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: zak on Wednesday 18 March 09 20:30 GMT (UK)
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My grandfather served in the West Riding Regiment during the First World War. In June 1919 he had transferred to the labour corps, where he was a private (number 615172), and was serving in Cologne. I know this because I have a postcard from him. By mid-1920 he was a patient in the Royal Derby mental hospital and was later transferred to a local mental hospital where he remained for the rest of his life as a 'service' patient. Please could someone help me to find out what he was doing during 1919 until early 1920 that had such a devastating effect on his life. many thanks
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Hi Zak,
What was your grandfather's name?
If it begins with A - N, I'll have a look on the WWI Service Records.
I expect you know that not all of them survived....
I'll also search the WWI Pension Records.
Yorkslass
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Hi Zak
Ernest didnt deploy overseas til after 1916.
Where was he from? There are a number of Service records to his name on Ancestry.Its tying it to number and address.
Lots of things could have had an effect on him.Maybe he was Graves Registration on the battlefield clearances?
His Labour Corps number may prove the answer.
Ady
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Thanks for your reply. My grandfather's name was Ernest Broadbent and he came from Halifax. After the war he was in a mental hospital near Huddersfield. I've found his medal card but have been unable to find his service record. I haven't looked for a pensions record as at the time I didn't know that he received one. His army number in the West Riding Regiment was 300164.
Zak
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Thanks for your reply Ady. Now you've got me intrigued! How do you know he probably didn't go overseas until after 1916? His labour corps number was 615172. Do you know how I can find anything else about my grandfather from this number? Whom can I contact? Can I find out anything from Kew? Do I need more information first? And just out of interest, how did you know my grandfather's name was Ernest? Questions, questions! And any help very much appreciated.
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Zak
He wasnt awarded a 1915 Star according to his medal index card.If had deployed overseas before Jan 1916 he would have got that.
I did a search on his Labour Corps number on the NA online site which gave me his WRR number as well as Labour Corps one.That gave me his name ;)
If his record survived it will be on ancestry.You say he was an Halifax lad If you get in touch with the library there they have the West Riding Regiment Great War Enlistment books there so he may have an entry in it.
***ALSO I WAS SLIGHTLY OUT IN BATTALIONS He was possibly 6th Batt as his 300*** Number fall into that category.*********
Was he at Storthes Hall Hospital?
Ady :)
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Hello again Zak,
I've had a look on Ancestry but no joy I'm afraid - I've searched under his name and both of his regimental numbers, but nothing on either the Service Records or the Pensions Records.
If he was at Storthes Hall Hospital, as Ady mentions, there may be some records at the West Yorkshire Archive Service at Wakefield.
Here's a link to a Collections Guide on Health Records, and it mentions Admission/Discharge registers and case files for Storthes Hall - starting from 1904 to the 1990's. http://www.archives.wyjs.org.uk/downloads/Collections%20Guide%207.pdf
Good luck,
Yorkslass
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Zak
what area of Halifax was he living in 1914-18? Its a post 1917 Service number for the West Ridings .
Ady
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Thanks for getting back to me Ady. I'll try the Halifax library - sounds a good idea. He lived at Salterhebble, Halifax before the war.
Yes he was in Storthes Hall.
I've got all the information from his time there from Wakefield archives - they have been brilliant. I'm now trying to complete the picture by finding out what work he was involved in between 1919 and 1920. What I cannot understand is that if he was suffering from mental health then why did he continue in the army after the war ended and why did he transfer to the labour corps? His records are not at the national archives but those of his 2 brothers are, which suggests to me that they have not been destroyed. Is there a possibility that his army record went with him to the Royal Derby hospital if he was admitted there as a service patient? I think my next step may be to try there.
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Thanks Yorkshirelass. I've been in touch with Wakefield archives and they have sent me copies of my grandfather's medical records. They have been brilliant. Thanks for looking on ancestry for me - much appreciated even if the records aren't there, at least it rules that avenue of search out.
Zak
by the way, where abouts in Yorkshire are you from?
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what area of Halifax was he living in 1914-18? Its a post 1917 Service number for the West Ridings .
Ady
Thanks again Ady. Please could you let me know how you found this information! He was born in Sowerby and was living at Salterhebble, Halifax.
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The book you need toread is "Forgotten Lunatics of The Great War" It explains all about "Service Patients"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Forgotten-Lunatics-Great-Peter-Barham/dp/0300103794
A rather excellent book...
"Shell Shock" "Neurasthenia" or more commonly these days PTSD has many causes and many presentations, not all psychotic.
It can be an accumulation of things and the last thing, perhaps something minor would be "the straw that broke the camels back" type of scenario.
Here is a picture of the British Army in Cologne
No it isn't...I'll put it up later... ;D
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http://www.1914-1918.net/TF_renumbering_infantry.htm
This should explain renumbering in 1917 when TF lads got 6 digit instead of 4 digit numbers.
He may have enlisted before this but didnt go overseas.
Ive just been researching a soldier from Sowerby that was a POW captured at Mons 1914.I was lucky his record survived.
It is luck of the draw with records as only 30% survived the 1940 bombing.
Theres a possibility that he went overseas to an Infantry Base Depot as a West Riding Reg soldier but was immediately drafted to the Labour Corps .Do you have any photos
Ady
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http://www.1914-1918.net/TF_renumbering_infantry.htm
Do you have any photos
Ady
This is a postcard that he sent home to his wife saying 'This is a good view of the camp.' And I've just noticed it is dated 1916. He was born in 1884 which makes him quite old to have joined up.
Thanks again for all your help. Who are you researching from Sowerby? I have a lot of relatives that were born there!
Zak
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Many thanks Scrimnet - I'll look out for the book you suggest. I'd also love to see the photo...
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Hi Zak
Scrimnet is right about the awful things these poor chaps went through,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRv56gsqkzs -
Pete
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Hi Zak
Lad im researching was Ernest Brayshaw lived Washer? Lane Sowerby Bridge he was a 1901 enlistee left 1913 and rejoined for Great War and spent 4 yrs POW picked up his Victory Medal in Hebden Bridge couple of weeks ago.
The phot looks like a basic training camp in UK.
Do you have his medals? If so have a look on the Rims and see what is impressed into them.
Ady
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Here we go....
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If you look closely, the signs are in English, and there are British Soldiers everywhere...
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Thanks Scrimnet, an interesting photo. Do you know the year it was taken?
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Thanks pete for the link to Utube. I find video clips like this very distressing, but it is reality and should be shown.
I have all the medical records on my grandfather that I got from Wakefield archives and I'm relieved that none of these symptoms are recorded in his notes.
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Hi Ady
I have both my grandfather's medals and they recod his name, number and regiment on the rim.
I know Washer Lane in Halifax, so if you are querying the spelling you have got it correct.
Now that you have said it's a basic training camp in England it seems obvious. But I always thought it was somewhere in France as he was in the army during the war. Sometimes the obvious staring us in the face just passes us by, so many thanks for that.
Zak
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Hello again Zak,
The book Scrimnet mentioned is previewed on Google Books - http://www.rootschat.com/links/05w8/
It is a "preview", but there are a lot of pages still to read. I just searched it for Storthes Hall, of which there are quite a few mentions, but I found myself reading a lot of it. It makes very sad reading.
I know it doesn't really help you with your search, but it gives a good background as to why so many soldiers suffered in the way your grandfather did.
(I'm originally from Hull, by the way, but the last twenty years, I've lived "down South"!)
Yorkslass
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I also was amazed at how much of this book was up on the web - and it is searchable. And I agree, it is depressing reading. What I'm trying to find out is exactly what his role was in the war that had this effect on him. I'd really like to know what he was doing in Germany - so I need to know which part of the labour corps he was in and then perhaps I could visit the National Archives to find out more. It all takes time, and is so difficult to find information.
Zak
Born in halifax, and also am now a southerner - have been for the last 9 years.
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Zak
The Medal Roll at Kew may give you which unit he was in in the Labour Corps.Do his medals say West Riding Regiment on?
There is an expert on the Great War Forum called Ivor whos specialises in Labour Corps.He may be able to help.
http://www.geocities.com/labour_corps/
Heres his site :)
Ady
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Yes, his medals say West Riding Regiment. Thanks for the link - I have emailed Ivor. I'll let you know if I hear anything more. Thanks once again Ady for your time and help.
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He was part of the British Army of Occupation which crossed the Rhine after the war and occupied parts of Germany.
This might be useful...
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/war-diaries.asp
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E0CE2DE1338EE32A25751C1A9639C946896D6CF
And this is where we had a look at this previously...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,304986.0.html
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Many thanks for the links Scrim, they make fascinating reading and I enjoyed the discussion of the pictures.
You have now got me thinking that if he was part of the British Army of Occupation then this may not be the part of his service record that triggered the mental health problems. I am now wondering if his troubles started when he was in the West Riding Regiment.
Before the war he was a hospital porter, so maybe he was something to do with the field hospitals, or even worse a stretcher bearer, and it was what he encountered that started the mental illness. But if this was the case then why didn't they send him home once the war finished?
There are so many unanswered questions and it is so difficult to find out information about ordinary soldiers.
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Many thanks for the links Scrim, they make fascinating reading and I enjoyed the discussion of the pictures.
You have now got me thinking that if he was part of the British Army of Occupation then this may not be the part of his service record that triggered the mental health problems. I am now wondering if his troubles started when he was in the West Riding Regiment.
Before the war he was a hospital porter, so maybe he was something to do with the field hospitals, or even worse a stretcher bearer, and it was what he encountered that started the mental illness. But if this was the case then why didn't they send him home once the war finished?
There are so many unanswered questions and it is so difficult to find out information about ordinary soldiers.
In my experience in this, it may have been something quite small that set him off...
A letter, a telling off for dirty boots...Or just seeing the state of desperation that the Hun were in at the end of the war...Literally starving...
It is indeed the accumulation of experiences that cause a "blue funk"
Actually group therapy was started by the British Army during WW2...Lessons had been learned by then...
The Service Patient after the war was quite well looked after - considering - and he always had the company of others who had been through the same...A sort of early group therapy and even TRiM!