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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: emmsthheight on Tuesday 17 March 09 23:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I'm hoping some wise Rootschatters may be able to help us.
We have Richard Carruthers artist and merchant, and brothers William, Isaac and possibly John, went out to Portugal and Brazil early 19C.
They founded a company Carruthers & Co. with various partners includig de Souza and del Castro.
There is a company started in Lancashire in Manchester and Liverpool - Carruthers with various partners.
I'd really appreciate it if anyone can help with precisely what they were doing, who was runnig it, where they were living, any family information etc.
It looks like exporting, they had an address in King Street and one in Spring Gardens Manchester.
There may be a death for William in Lisbon. There is a Widow Carruthers born Portugal with children born Brazil on the census 1861 and a couple more odd entries but nothing conclusive or complete. I've odd snippets from Google books too, but nothing in the areas I've given.
Best wishes
Emms
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The London Gazette has various mentions of business dealings (free online).
A quick search there shows a liquidation in 1878 of "Carruthers Brothers", wine merchants, metioning William, Isaac & James Carruthers, and an announcement in 1850 of the dissolution of a Partnership mentioning de Castro & de Souza on the retirement of Richard Carruthers.
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A Google for "carruthers de castro" as mentioned in the partnership brings up an entry in Google Books which says the firm were into banking.
The same book seems to mention nearly all the people in the partnership. It is probably worth a deeper read.
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Thank you Andrew. That's interesting. Be;ieve it or not I've done one heck of a lot of Googling. I had seen bits on Google about the banking, but I'm trying to get where they fit in.
I've not got the bit about wine, though, and didn't have any real connection to Isaac. there seems to be a bit of luck with Googling. I know they add all the time. I've got two boxes of odd snippets with no substantial facts!
This is a real move on though, mentioning all three. We know they were into all sortds but much seems to be blown up in stories about the de Souza character who is evidently a legend over there and they conflict. The main one being cotton etc.
This entry on wine is especially interesting as it involves all three, it's a hard business fact, and the opossible death for William mentions him as a wine merchant. Rootschat does it again! Thank you!
The Gazette is evidently one way to go. I have some from Google and from 19C Newspapers, but I guess they wont all be on there if I'd thought!
Thank you again!
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi
Just a little note to say Thank You! again Andrew. I had a good root on the Gazette archives :
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk
earlier on and got a load of stuff that hadn't come up on Google books or 19C newspapers.
There's a full report on the split of the partnership and I've also talen about twenty other incidents off.
If anyone hasn't used this resource you can search all 19th and 20thC issues of London Gazette and some other local versions.
Main uses are Bankrupts and army reports from the wars but there are all sorts including creditors to deceased - which could give a clue to a death, some Tythe applotments -some for Cumbria came up, and you name it!
So if you are at a brick wall you've nothing to lose, and it's free including scans of the original!
By the way, if you've not used it for while like me, givew it a go because there's loads more stuff on and it's infinitely faster.
Best wishes to all.
Emms
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Although I am still exploring one or other other lines, here's what I have on the Brazilian connection - there is certainly some "unconventional behaviour" here!
Starting with from the 1871/1881 census there seem to be two family groups with children born in Brazil:
1) The Portuguese-born Maria A de A Carruthers, widow of Richard (who must have died before 1871) living in Chorlton, Lancs in 1871 with three Brazilian-born children, Adelaide (1847), Isaac (1852) and James (1853); of these, the two youngest are still living with their mother a decade later in Fulham (perhaps she moved to provide a base as they developed their careers in London as artist and shipping clerk respectively; I suppose that Adelaide had married by then. There was also a Brazilian-born mechanical engineer Richard Carruthers (1848) in Chorlton in 1871 who was living in the same street, but as a lodger with retired wine merchant William Payant - whose son was he?
2) In Liverpool was a Mary N Carruthers "widow of chandler" and with her were Brazilian-born Conrad J (1855, brass finisher), William A (1857, cabinet maker) and Charles J (1859, scholar). For the reasons below, it may well be that Mary Carruthers was not their mother - or perhaps only of Conrad.
I have failed to find any records at all of the births of the children of Richard and Maria - none of them were registered with consuls in Brazil and they do not appear in the baptismal registers of Christ Church, the English church in Rio de Janeiro. I do know, however from consular correspondence in the National Archives that there was a merchant Richard Carruthers in Rio de Janeiro at least between 1825 and 1834, but he may have moved to another city after that.
William Carruthers however certainly raised a family in Rio de Janeiro. Christ Church baptismal registers records three:
7/12/1856 William Augustus Carruthers, born 27/10/1856
parents William Carruthers (clerk) and Margaret Zimmer
30/10/1858 Charles John Carruthers, born 5/10/1858
parents William (mercantile clerk) and Anna Margaret Carruthers
21/2/1861 Mary Margaret, born 16/1/1861
parents William (mercantile clerk) and Anna Margaret Carruthers
Interesting that first two were born out of wedlock. And this is confirmed by a marriage on 30/10/1858 (the very day of the baptism of Charles):
William Carruthers of Carlisle, bachelor
Anna Margaret Zimmer of Niderbeisen[?], Germany, spinster [in her signature looks like "Margaretkes" (witnesses were non-family)]
It seems unlikely that Anna Margaret Zimmer would have been transformed into the Cumberland-born Mary N Carruthers by the 1871 census. I suspect that the boys were in England learning trades/at school and living with an aunt while 10-year-old Mary stayed in Brazil with her mother.
On 8/7/1881 Charles John Carruthers married another German, Anna Seidemann (born about 1857) at Christ Church, Rio de Janeiro.
However six years earlier, the youngest, Mary Ann Margaret, married 35-year-old Swedish engineer Axel Rudolf Frick on 18/1/1875 just two days after her 14th birthday. And the reason is clear - just three months later on 23/4/1875 they had a daughter Anna Amy Nancy Frick, also baptised at Christ Church.
Both of these marriages were registered with the British Consul in Rio de Janeiro.
Whether Conrad was a product of the same Carruthers/Zimmer union is not known, indeed he may not have been born in Rio de Janeiro.
I have brief records of a couple of strays that may not be connected to the same family. In 1825 there was a resident in Pernambuco (Recife) named George A Carruthers (this may be the George Agnew Carruthers, attorney, referenced in the London Gazette 27 June 1815, p1253). And in the same city the marriage of Margaret Carruthers and José Maria da Conceição was registered at the British consulate in the early 1860s.
There do not seem to be any Carruthers deaths registered by British consuls in Brazil. Unfortunately I do not yet have copies of the Christ Church, Rio de Janeiro burial registers after 1861.
Well, that's it for now - I'll add any further tidbits that emerge.
David
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David, you are an absolute amazing star!
Without you we would have absolutely none of this apart from a couple of titbits. I'm limited really to what I can find on the web.
I also really appreciate you using your background knowledge into use. Even the history professionals I know have very limited knowledge in this area. I am realising certain patterns are arising, but I don't have the knowledge even when the odd Brazilian born arises to put it to any use at all as I'm so wary of drawing spurious conclusions fropm the odd coincidence. Your wealth of knowledge has made such a difference.
We did have the two Lancashire censuses but that's all.
There are a couple of other bits too, but I'll get my notes and put it in another post, as this is getting quite long.
Thank you so much.
Best wishes
Emms, Cumbria.
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David
The other major bits I have are these:
I had the census for Maria A A de? Carruthers.
At first I attributed her to William. Now you give me the sons, that looks right again. A have Marria Augustus A de Carruthers on onee censuis.
Then I thought Isaac from a comment in Brazil Portuguese? which Icouldn't get the internet to translate from a book, (Google), I now realise it's split and there may be more prose in between.
Richard is a strange case to follow. He did come back to this country and married eventually and died about 1876 with one son.
We hve his will. He already had a son in this country though and we always felt there was more to the story. I can give you anything we have.
The other prize clue I just received., since I wrote to you. Also more clues from The Gazette, including re a wine merchants with family.
My main hard fact until your wonderful excerpts from Rio de Janeiro, was an email kinbdly sent by the Chaplain in The English Church in Lisbon. I knew William had been there, and Richard was there before Rio de Janeiro.
I had a death for a William buried there frrom the Gale, copied from a Lisbon paper.
He found burials and quotes from a stone to the effect:
1. William Carruthers died Cabo Ruiva near Lisbon May 6th 1857 aged 84
2. Isaac Carruthers died Oct 19 1858 aged 46 years. (Burial reg says 1853, so it will be.)
I had nothing on Isaac until now.
William's death fits with the birth we have near Carlisle and also his Brother Richard and other siblings near Carlisle. Baptised Kirklinton.
I have no conclusive birth for Isaac but there are a couple close by that give only one parent, that seem to fit this date.
I also found a death for Maria Auguste A de, v. late 19C in the last couple of days. Not in here, but I'll dig it out.
Do you have a definite link between William and Maria Augusta?
Thank you again and best wishes
Emms.
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hello, Mary Ann Margaret and Axel Rudolf Frick are my great-grandmother/great-grandfather. They married in Rio de Janeiro on the beach in Russell, as stated on the marriage certificate. She was 14-year-old and He 35-year-old. My grandmother Carlota Elizabeth and my mother Amélia. Amelia died in 1995 but his sister Aurea still lives. I hope I have helped.
However six years earlier, the youngest, Mary Ann Margaret, married 35-year-old Swedish engineer Axel Rudolf Frick on 18/1/1875 just two days after her 14th birthday. And the reason is clear - just three months later on 23/4/1875 they had a daughter Anna Amy Nancy Frick, also baptised at Christ Church.
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Hi Rocio
Welcome to Rootschat!
Thank you for your exciting reply, and thank you for sending it on your first post.
I'm sorry I'm just getting back to you. I've been very tied up the last few weeks. This is exciting for us as progress has been quite slow recently.
I'll look out what I have and get back to you. If you have any more details or ideas where we can look I'd love to know. We're trying to link in the sightings we have in England with the correct individuals in Btrazil and find out more about the time in Brazil.
I'd love to swap more details.
Thank you again.
Best wishes
Emms
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PS
By the way, how did you find my post?
Are you researching the interests in Brazil too?
Also, I'm fascinating by the marriage on the beach - especially in those days and it appearing on a marriage certificate. ::)
By the way, did you have the certificate or did you find it on the web or in an archive?
Hop[e you don't mind me asking.
Thank you again. ;)
Emms :) :) :)
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Hello Emms, it is a pleasure for me to talk with you. I found you because this wonderful tool called Google exists. :) I just wrote Axel Rudolf Frick and your post appeared. :) As I told you he is my greatgrandfather. He was an engineer and vice consul of Sweden. He came to work for the British Company ''São Paulo Railway Company".
Ok, so, see what interesting thing...On the marriage certificate that listed the ceremony took place on the Praia do Russel...it means that belongs to Russel. Colonel John Frederick Russel, joint owner of The City of Santos Improvements Company Limited. The City, as it was called, received the concession from Brazilian Emperor to deploy gas lighting, water ans sewerage, railways and others etc etc. I believe that they all were friends...Carruthers, Russel, Frick. By the way, you understand portuguese? There is an immense source of information about these companies. If you need some help tell me.
By the way, what is your real interest in this history? Are you from UK? Are you from Carruthers family? I am from São Paulo - Brazil.
About the certificate of marriage it is original.
In this link you can see a picture of Praia do Russel http://www.jblog.com.br/rioantigo.php?itemid=12525
In this other link you can see a transcription of permission The City http://zrak7.ifrance.com/santos-bonde-1881.pdf
Best regards Emms
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Hi Rocio
Thank you :) Thank you :) !
This is all fascinating to me.
I will get back to you tomorrow as it's very late here, but all the help is really appreciated
Best wishes
Emms ;D
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Hi Rocio
I'm sorry it's got late again so I'll leave a longer reply until tomorrow.
Juist for the record though, yes I am in the UK in fact not far from where Richard and William Carruthers came from - though Isaacv remains a mystert.
In fact that is my real interest. I am researching local artists with a friend and Richard Carruthers was an artist as well as a merchant, though we've had difficulty pinning down any Brazil paimntings - we know they existed though.
I will write more tomorrow - I hope! ::)
Best wishes
Emms :)
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Hoi Rocio
I'm finally getting round to replying properly to your post!
I have to say again, it's really exciting to hear from someone who not only knows about the Carruthers family but also who is in Brazil!
As I said, my friend and I started researching local artists including Richard Carruthers. Then we were amazed to discover his other activities in South America! I was already interested in South America and the links with Africa from my own family - including the Patmores, especially George Morgan - though this was further south, also Jamaica and Mozambique.
I'm fascinated by anything you can tell me about Brazil at the time, or the Carruthers / Fricke connections.
The information we have about Richard Carruthers and William is concerning Rio de Janeiro. Do you think he was in Sao Paolo and other places as well? I'm interested you mention the Gas Lightoing companies. We have evidence that Richard Carruthers and his associates and Carruthers and Co took over the gas lighting in Rio de Janeiro. Richard was back oin England by then, but he had a position in the company.
Thank you for the links. I will have another look at this.
No I'm not proficient in Portuguese by any means, but I have managed to get by so far with help from what I know of other languages and a translator! So I may well take you up on yoour offer.
Where did ypou discover about the Carruthers friends and relationships if you don't mind me asking?
So far our information has come from lucky breaks in online books, British information and a couple of bits from contacts. We haven't managed to pin down most of the events we know must have occured.
I will lookj up some details for my next reply.
thank you for all your efforts.
from a cool autumny, north of England.
Emms :)
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PS
If you would like any of our information about Carruthers origins you will be very welcome, though I'm away from home at the moment.
:) :) :)
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Richard Carruthers I have some information about. He played a major role in the industrial revolution in Brazil. While a merchant in Rio de Janeiro he took on an orphan apprentice, if I remember correctly: Evangelista de Sousa from Porto Alegre. The orphan had great aptitude for business and Carruthers backed him financially. Evangelista was later made Baron de Maua. He built Brazil's first railway, its first naval dockyard forge. I think the first Brazilian streamship. Teh very first Brazilian steam engine (built in Manchester) was named Baron de Maua. All this is from memory but you can corroborate it on line. I was a correspondent in Brazil for 14 years and read extensively on the Maua. I wondered what happened to Richard Carruthers. Biographers of Maua mention Carruthers retired to Carlisle. Any info on his end ?
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Hi
Great to hear from you.
Welcome to Rootschat!
I've not had chance to do too much recently, but I'm getting back into things I hope.
I'll have to write more later, as I'm away from home. I'll give you a précis from memory. the full story would fill the board but I'll give you an outline. I'd love to know any more from your end. We have stuff about Maua from online but I'd love to know more about finding original records in Brazil. If you were a correspondent did you use these or know the best libraries?
To swap more detail than will fit on a board or to exchange emails if you wanted to exchange attachments,we can also use the pm - personal messaging - system by the button on the left.
We've done loads on this and I'm sure my friend who started me off on it would be happy to send more detail.
For the moment, yes, Richard returned to the UK. he still seems to have had links to business in Brazil though this is mostly from internet business reports.
He built a large house near Carlisle. He married a lady who had been documented as his housekeeper having had a child to her. He collected art. Reports here say that he had a child in Brazil as well. Would you know of any reports of that on original documents?
I've recently tied in his family with some records from the other side of the border involving another brother James and also William.
Richard died in the Carlisle area and is buried here and left a will.
I'd love to hear more detail and I'll share anything of interest. I have a lot more detail.
Best wishes
Emms
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PS
One of the biggest mysteries is the relationship to Isaac. I'm wondering if he is a nephew rather than a brother. Richard is almost a generation younger than his eldest brother.
We also have a few Carruthers family members in the UK on censuses but born in Brazil and Portugal and I'd love to know about them or where to look.
For instance, Maria Almeida Carruthers. I think she must be a widow one of them. She left a will but I don't have it so far.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi,
How are you? I am a brazilian researcher and I'm trying to find informations about Richard Carruthers (who was a partner of the Carruthers & Co.). One of the things that call my attention is that sometimes I found mentions about he being scottish. You mentioned that he was buried in Carslile, he was born there? Do you know if he had any connection with Scotland?
Any information that you could provide would help me. Please send an e-mail to correandre@gmail.com. And If you need any help to translate brazilian documents feel free to contact me in the same e-mail.
All the best,
André Corrêa
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Hi
Welcome to Rootschat!
Two replies in one night!
Yes, that's our Richard Carruthers.
The English Scottish border leads to some errors in writing over here, never name over there.
Add to that the fact that the border has been much disputed and has moved over the centuries and also, some people on one side of the border will have family on either side and use churches on both sides!
The fact is, Carlisle is really close to the border - ten minutes drive? Richard was born close to Carlisle at Pedderhill and baptised at Kirklinton close by, both in the country very close to the border but in England. He built his house, Eden Grove, in Crosby on Eden, close by and was buried in Kirklinton.
In fact he had family over the border but it is really common to see reports as Scottish for people in the Border area, and nowadays they could well have had a Scottish accent.
Andre, I might well take you up on the offer to translate. I will keep a short version on here but send more detail.
I'll copy your email address but the moderators will probably take it off for privacy reasons. If you post three - two? times you can use private messages - button left, to give email info etc privately.
Thank you again.
Best wishes
Emms :)
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feel free to email me directly: jkbrazuk@yahoo.co.uk My books are in store at the moment but have a couple of books on Maua in Portuguese. I'm now living in Cumbria and would love to know exactly where Richard lived so I could drive by and maybe see his gravestone. The street and building where he worked in downtown Rio is still well preserved. cheers John Kolodziejski
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Hi John
Great to hear back. Books sound exciting! You're a good few years ahead of me. Only a dream at the moment for me. Are they Brazil or local?
I haven't actually been up to the houses. I was in Carlisle and I'll have to come back soon but at the moment I'm down in West Cumbria. I always meant to go. They're all quite rural and you may have to employ some charm to get right up to them.
All out in the wilds. the one he built is Eden Grove - quite grand. I've seen a picture and there's a bit on the web. Formal columns at the door and galleries etc. His son was also Richard and there are reports of loads of paintings etc coming out when it was sold. In it's own grounds though I think, possibly secure.
Before that he had a smaller house close by - The Grove?
He was born at Pedderhill - I think there was a group of farmhouses/cottages there. I'm not sure what still stands.
You can definitely look at the grave stone - more a monument - my friend's seen it - huge, apparently you can't miss it. His father aged 100 is mentioned on the other side I think or close by.
I have some inscriptions for these.
I'll get some stuff together.
By the way, did you photograph any addresses in Rio? I would love to see that a would my friend who I started this with.
Listed Buildings report for Eden Grove here.
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-77670-eden-grove-stanwix-rural-cumbria (http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-77670-eden-grove-stanwix-rural-cumbria)
http://www.stevebulman.f9.co.uk/cumbria/1901/crosby_f.html (http://www.stevebulman.f9.co.uk/cumbria/1901/crosby_f.html)
By the way, my mistake, the baptism is at Arthuret, not far away at Longtown.
I'm afraid it's a bit of rural mooching around in the car but fascinating. All the churches are still there though maybe locked. Many gravestones have disappeared but the one for Richard is still there.
I'll look at my notes and catch up by email.
Have fun.
Emms
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I haven't looked carefully at all your posts on this subject. Are you a descendent of the wise Richard Carruthers ? What got my attention yesterday was we were (unusually) watching ITV and there was a mention of Carrutherstown. So that reminded me about my curiosity about your Carruthers. And behold, I did a web search and found your posts. The chap in Brazil must have picked up my mention of Maua in the same way. I lived in Rio for 4 of my 14 years in Brazil. As economic correspondent I was always interested in seeing how industry developed and nobody figures larger than Maua. We'll certainly have a spin up to Eden Grove and the church.
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Hi Again
I hope you find all these places.
No, I'm not a descendant of Richard's. My friend and I are just interested in local characters especially artists.
We just started with Richard's art. He was renowned for doing his portrait of Wordsworth but when we looked into it we realised it would be Portugal and Brazil as well.
I hope you enjoy your trip. Not sure how far you have to come . I should think the graves and house would take a good chunk of a day,
Best wishes
Emms
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By the way, have either you good people ever found any details about the Carruthers & Co activities in Lancashire or where they lived or any addresses?
I've looked quite a bit with no success. I did find a shipping company who they used - Stott & Co? Also, possibly Lyons? Just names mentioned in common with them in some references.
Thank you for all your input.
Best wishes with the trip up to Crosby on Eden and Kirklinton.
Emms
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Was Carruthers any good at painting ? I hadn't seen any mention of his prowess in this area in Brazil. Just that he was a steady, probably a bit dour, merchant. If he produced anything in Brazil it's not well-known as I've seen most collections of that period there. We live in Arnside, so a quick trip up the M6 no probs.
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Was the artist Richard the younger then ?
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What a fascinating thread, have you looked at Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1853, hopefully not to late! Previoulsy Historicaldirectories
http://leicester.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p16445coll4/id/218268/rec/26
According to the profile of Richard CARRUTHERS against Wordsworth's paiting, b 1792 Kirllinton
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Hi
My email didn't come about these two posts.
Yes, we started with Richard's prowess as an artist from various art sources on the area. the main interest was more details on local artists. I expected it to lead to more artistic finds, but we ended up going half way round the world - osms and r he did!
Yes, the main well known picture is the Wordsworth portrait which figures in many books. Apparently he visited Wordsworth over here.
He was associated with Carlisle Academy and exhibited at the Royal Academy but the evidence we have is as a merchant.
We have loads of family baptism and marriage entries and between us have quite detailed family information.
The main holes are in the foreign research. Most information has come form comments in books on Maua and also literary figures over here and their letters.
I think that's why he doesn't seem such a character in business. I think he actually was, but the records aren't there.
Yes, he was much younger than his older brothers - twenty years? from memory. They appear to have had a large hand in bringing him up. William, and older brother was in Portugal as a wine merchant and Richard went there first. William died there, also Isaac, though I think he may have been a cousin or uncle. We've not found births and marriages in Portugal or Brazil though we have burial records for William and Isaac.
Thank you for the reference.
I have looked before with no results but I can't get it to let me view the reference at the moment.
Best wishes
Emms
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We did a quick trip up to Crosby-on-Eden yesterday and saw (bits of) Eden Grove from a drive past. Also got access to church there, which has just one plaque inside: and yes, it's to Richard Carruthers ! Didn't stick around long enough to go thru the cemetery to find his grave.
Thanks for all your info - I did know that portrait of Wordsworth.
I have a good collection of fine art prints in books on Brazil (in store) which I will eventually go through with the mission of finding anything by RC.
Good luck with the research- it's an interesting project.
cheers John K
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Hi John
Wow, you've been already! Yes, I thought I remembered I plaque but couldn't remember the details without checking.
We have quote from the memorial though and I think a photo, so you can have those to put you on when I find them.
Yes. I'd love anything on paintings when you get chance.
I'll get together what I've got but I'm between packing and unpacking family struff and between moves and visits so it's a bit hitty missy!
You love in a lovely place at Arnside. I went through last week in the pollution and I never thought I'd see it looking so murky and airless.
Take care. Glad you found "him"
Emms
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Hi
Sorry, I should say, we do have two addresses for the firm in the 19C, Springfield Gardens including33 and from memory, possible King Street - 84? might not be exactly right.
When I had it in front of me I did some searches and decided that the Springfield Gardens address had gone but the King Street one was a boutique. Not sure though due to street numbering changes and this is only from memory.
Main thing is I've never found records of what they got up to. I know Richard was a partner for various places such as the gas company in Brazil and elsewhere but no details here or family details in Manchester.
Best wishes
Emms