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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: lozzab on Sunday 15 March 09 03:12 GMT (UK)

Title: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Sunday 15 March 09 03:12 GMT (UK): Hi all,
My grandfather (I knew him as Jack Ernest Cameron) was born in 1905 in Wellington, New Zealand.
He had a twin sister Iris Daphne (b:1905),
sister Phyliis Raoni b:1907)
brother Stewart Couldrey (b: 1909)

I have his parents as Adela LEVY and Ernest (poss Hugh) CAMERON.

Ernest, Adela and the 4 kids emigrated to Australia (prob. NSW) in about 1909/1910.

Adela LEVY (b:1976 - NZ) was child of Leah MARKS and Henry LEVY(married NZ in 1868)

Problems- there was a family rumour that Adela and Ernest were never married. I have just checked the new NZ BMD Indexes on line and this appears to be the case.

All four of the children are registered under the mother's maiden name of LEVY. The mother's name has been put down as Amelia (her middle name according to her birth index) My grandfathers name has been registered as Jack Ernest Cameron LEVY - so it appears that Ernest was the father. Why would they have not got married?? Her family was Jewish - would this have been the reason??
It appears she and the children have just adopted the Cameron name when they have arrived in Australia.

I have not been able to trace Ernest (Hugh) Cameron back any further. He died in Frankston, Victori in 1958 at aged 82yrs (so born about 1876) and the certificate states he was born NZ and was married to Adela since 1902. His parents were put down as unknown.

Is anyone out there connected to this family?
How do I get past Ernest Cameron?
How do I find the ship passenger details of the family coming to Australia?

Would appreciate any help/suggestions!!!!

thanks,
Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 15 March 09 22:46 GMT (UK): Hello Loz

Hmmm ... yes, you do perhaps have a wee problem with finding further information for Ernest (Hugh) CAMERON. :)

Looking at the NZ Historical birth index (online), I couldn't really see "an Ernest" who was a "possible" ... (there are however a number of "Hugh CAMERON" births).

But I think your very best chance of tracing Ernest's ancestors, may well come from the "Couldrey" name, he gave to his younger son ? (I'll see what I can find for this surname).

As you've discovered, there was no marriage registered in NZ for Adela and Ernest. Have you checked Australian indexes though, to see if they perhaps wed at a later date ?
(I would agree that Adela's Jewish faith would have played a part in preventing the couple from being married).

Do you have any other information (from Australian sources) that show that Ernest was (a) commonly known as "Hugh" ? ... or (b) does the name "Hugh" appear on Ernest's death certificate ?

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 15 March 09 23:01 GMT (UK): --- I did mean to ask also, if there were further children born to the couple in Australia ? (If so, might there be any further "clues" amongst the christian names, they were given)?

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 16 March 09 00:24 GMT (UK): ... thought these surnames were familiar. :D

Previous search at >>

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,295570.0.html
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 16 March 09 00:39 GMT (UK): Hi Loz

I've added your earlier search here, because it seems there was some work done previously in trying to trace "Ernest (Hugh / Howard) CAMERON" ... and also some info relating to Adela, which may be beneficial to others assisting in this current search.

* Do you have the birth record (printout) for your grandfather (Jack - b. 1905) ? (It would be interesting to know exactly where (at what address), the birth of Jack and his twin sibling, took place).

I see that Adela was at Porewa Rangitikei school (aged 11 - 1887) but her father (guardian) was still resident in Welllington ? I'm wondering if Adela returned to Wellington after her schooling ? (This could help in possibly tracing where Ernest CAMERON came from or where he lived prior to 1905).

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Monday 16 March 09 00:53 GMT (UK): Hi Lucy - thanks for your interest.
I have checked both NSW and Vic indexes and there is no marriage for Adela and Ernest in australia. I know they settled in Nsw and then moved to Victoria 1930/31. I have seen a passenger list that might be Adela and the children arriving in Melbourne June 1909 on "Moana" - a Mrs Cameron 36yrs with 3 children and one infant - which fits. Wondering if they continued straight up to NSW and if Ernest came out earlier to set up - as my other g-grandfather did with his family??

Ernest's middle is "Hugh" on his wife's death cert (she died a number of years before him - and I figure this shoudl be correct as he would have provided the info for the death certificate??)
His middle name is "Howard" on his death cert. and is "Hyde" on his daughter's (Iris) marriage certificate.

Do you think my g-grandmother Adela was away at boarding school?? Is it far from Wellington?

I have ordered my grandfather's birth certificate - I am hoping it turns up this week and has some useful info on it. On the index it says the father is N/R - I hope that this is not the case.

Thanks again,
Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 16 March 09 01:32 GMT (UK): Hi Loz

Yes, the info from the passenger list ("Moana - 1909), sounds like an excellent match.

I would be inclined to go with "Hugh" as being Ernest's second christian name, too.

I'm not sure about the "Porewa" school - nor whether Adela may have been a boarder, there ? (Perhaps someone else on this board can give further info ... and also whether any of Adela's siblings, were also enrolled there ?).
(The Rangitikei area includes ~~places like Palmerston North).~~
Edit: See further info in a following post.

CAMERON, I'm sure you'll appreciate, can be bothersome to search (apologies to all Cameron's :)) ... when we just have the two christian names for your Ernest. Really, he could "belong" to any number of parents who are listed on the historical birth index. My thinking is to narrow down the search ... perhaps find Ernest on an electoral roll and where he might be living. (Likewise with Adela ... she also may appear on an e/roll) ? If she was estranged from her parents (as seems likely), was she living with Ernest's family?

Hopefully the birth record for Jack (LEVY), will give some clues - (sorry, I don't think Ernest will have his name recorded on that as father - I may be wrong?). He might though be recorded as the informant to the birth(s) of Jack and his sister.

(Back to my earlier question) ... were there any other children born to Adela and Ernest in Australia ?

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Monday 16 March 09 01:59 GMT (UK): Lu,
No - no more children born in Australia.

How do I check Electoral Rolls in New Zealand? Are they on-line?

thanks so much for your help

Loz :)
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 16 March 09 02:12 GMT (UK): Hi Loz

Oh ... OK ... no more children (was half hoping there might have been, as OZ certificates give much better info than our NZ ones). ;)

Sorry, no e/rolls available online (the 1893 one which for the first time, includes women, is available on CD ... but your people Adela and Ernest, won't be included as they were under 21 - the voting age). I can check (later) rolls at library for you.

[Henry LEVY (father of Adela) ... was he the tailor ... or in the "rag" trade" (clothing business) ? I'm just going to check where he was also at the time Adela was having her babies ].

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 16 March 09 02:18 GMT (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Sunday 15 March 09 03:12 GMT (UK)

My grandfather (I knew him as Jack Ernest Cameron) was born in 1905 in Wellington, New Zealand.
He had a twin sister Iris Daphne (b:1905),
sister Phyliis Raoni b:1907)

brother Stewart Couldrey (b: 1909)

Loz ... do you have any Australian records for the brother Stewart ?

Just need to check that the spelling of his second name "COULDREY" (which could provide a link to CAMERON) ... is correct ?

Is Stewart's name recorded on any OZ indexes ?

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Monday 16 March 09 02:47 GMT (UK): I;m not sure ofHenry's trade. I know he was born in London about 1837 to Lipman Levy and Hannah Jones (Jonas). I believe that Leah Marks and her family lived nearby. It appears that Henry and Leah have emigrated to New Zealand (don't know if together or not) and they got married 25th March, 1868 in Hokitika New Zealand (I found their marriage Papers Past). Just last week I discovered Adela's siblings from the NZ bmd (gosh - I'm glad they finally went on line!!)
Henry and Leah had 5 children in all;-
Adela Amellia (b:1876)
Herbert Frederick (b:1879)
May Lilian (b:1880)
Marcus Alfred (b:1881) and
Ethel Evelyn (b:1885)

Stewart's name is on his parents death certificates and is also spelt that way on the NZ birth index. My mother tells me that he was a bit odd and disappeared and no-one knew where he was or what happened to him. I've been unable to find Stewart's death.

I really appreciate your help!
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 17 March 09 12:13 GMT (UK): Edit : from reply # 6

Hi Loz

I came across this map, which better demonstrates the Rangitikei area and shows its relationship to Wellington.

http://www.rangitikei.govt.nz/default.asp?menu=da

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 17 March 09 12:37 GMT (UK): Hi again

I've viewed a few Electoral rolls (and directories) essentially looking for Ernest Hugh CAMERON (and possibly Adela) in the Wellington area prior to them leaving for AUS.

Hmm ... I found two Ernest's in Wellington, but unfortunately, later rolls give these chaps, second christian names ... so can rule them out.

I also checked on LEVY ... there were TWO "Henry's" in Wellington from 1881, both were storekeepers. (One though seemed to have a link with Benjamin LEVY (probably Henry was his son - there is a newspaper article about their fancy goods shop, being robbed). The other which I think is "your Henry", is shown as a storekeeper in Cuba Street, Wellington. (Henry LEVY d. 1918 is listed on Cemetery record at Karori as " a Grocer").

Leah LEVY doesn't appear on the 1893 roll of First Women Voters and the first time I find her with Henry, is in 1911 when they are at 25 Walter Street in Wellington. (Henry is described as a "commission agent".)

I'll do some more checking for CAMERON though.
-----------------------------

Question: Loz, do you know what Ernest's occupation was ?

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Wednesday 18 March 09 05:19 GMT (UK): HI Lu,
I am pretty sure that the Henry that died in 1918 is mine. I'll have to get his death certificate.

Ernest Cameron was listed as a Real Estate Agent on my grandfather's (Jack Ernest) marriage certificate in Sydney in 1929 but again I don't know anything about his life in NZ. He's proving to be an elusive bugger!!It's frustrating - I have a photo of him (prob. aged in his 50-60's). I can see what he looks like but can't find anything about him!

Thanks again for your help, :D

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Wednesday 18 March 09 08:07 GMT (UK): There are a lot of Camerons in the Rangitikei area. They all originated from about five families that came out to Wellington in 1840 or thereabouts. Can't see an Ernest apart from one, but he is still in NZ in a WW1 uniform. There are a number of Hughs though.

Same Camerons that Fiona belongs to in the other post. Some of the different lines were related to each other, as well as some of the other families that came on the Blenheim in 1840, which most of them did. They were all from the Fort William area in Scotland.

Porewa is not really a town or village, but just an area nowadays. There was something there back when the place was first settled. There is still a school there though I think, and a church and graveyard.

So can't be sure if Ernest Hugh/Howard is one of the Rangitikei ones or not. Some of them did stay in Wellington, around Kaiwharawhara.

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 18 March 09 13:19 GMT (UK): Hi Loz ... and Ian

Hmmm ... all the checks I've done to date, keep drawing me back to the Rangitikei area ... and one, (possibly two), "Hugh CAMERON's". ???

Have just been able to eliminate "a Hugh" from Turakina - son of a Mr. A. CAMERON ... and the Ernest CAMERON's found in Wellington, have now all been ruled out.

That's interesting information Ian, about these CAMERON's who originated from the Fort William area (SCO).
I wonder if there might be a "COULDREY" surname in that area ? (I'm only guessing that "Couldrey" is a Scottish surname - and as Ernest and Adela gave their younger son this name, it seems probable it links back to the CAMERON family - rather than Adela's, Jewish family ?)

Loz ... I think another thing you could try, is a post on the AUS board, for the birth of Ernest Hugh CAMERON, somewhere in Australia. It's always possible he came to NZ as a child with his family ... or the other, that he came here, by himself, as a young man ?
[You said the Adela died some years before Ernest. Perhaps it is, that the informant to Ernest's death, simply made the assumption that he too, was NZ-born ?]

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 19 March 09 01:40 GMT (UK): Hi Lu and Ian,
Yes - I have been dubious that Ernest was born in NZ. His death certificate says he was born in Wellington BUT his son Jack didn't even know his parents weren't married until a while after his death. (My aunt recently told me that she remembers her father being very angry when he found out his parents had never been married - but she doesn't remember how he found out - she was only about 13 yrs old at the time.) Ernest died in his sleep in 1958 - he was living wiht his son, Jack's family and my mother was still living there at the time. I've asked my mother if she remembers him having an accent (thinking the Scottish accent hangs around for a while!) but she doesn't remember him having an accent at all.

I have tried a Victoria and Nsw search for his birth. The closest is a Ernest Howes Cameron (father William, mother Fanny) in 1870 in Sydney, NSW. I can't find a marriage or death for that Ernest Howes in NSW. Looks like Fanny died in 1876 - aged 36yrs. ???? so maybe William re-married as he had two young children.

I have also searched the name "Couldrey" as a first name and a surname both in Nsw and Vic BMD but nothing comes up at all.

Is there any way to check passenger lists coming into NZ from Australia or England/Scotland?

Thanks guys, I appreciate your time,
Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 21 March 09 01:33 GMT (UK): Hi again Loz

That's all helpful information, thanks.

I still think it's worthwhile casting a wider net for Ernest's birth in Australia ... trying the other States, as well.
(I'm a bit undecided about the Ernest Howes CAMERON b. NSW 1870 ... but you never know ... anybody's a possibility at this stage. :D)

COULDREY ... there were a few people in NZ with this surname (that's only though looking at those who married here ... the earliest being a "Sarah" in 1886).
Perhaps you could try and find out where this surname comes from ? I still think it's Scottish ... might be helpful to find out in which area it is most prevalent. (Post some queries on other boards ?)

I'm still doing some "digging" for you in NZ - mainly to see if the LEVY's offer any clues.

Passenger lists ... look in the Reources section of this board.
(There's nothing much for trans-Tasman voyages - except out of VIC to NZ ports).

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: suzyvan on Tuesday 24 March 09 22:13 GMT (UK): Hi Lozzab,
Could this be your family?

Australian Electoral Rolls, 1901-1936 > Victoria > 1931 > Batman > Northcote
Ernest Cameron 43 Ballantyne St [job Sales]
Adela Cameron 43 Ballantyne St [home duties]

Australian Electoral Rolls, 1901-1936 > Victoria > 1936 > Batman > Northcote
Ernest Cameron 43 Ballantyne St [job Sales]
Adela Cameron 43 Ballantyne St [home duties]

Lu will crack this one she is a very generous and diligent researcher!

Cheers Suzy
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 24 March 09 23:02 GMT (UK): Hi Suzy :)

Great work !

[ :-[ Trying my best ... but this one has got me well and truly stumped ! ]

The best chance of finding Ernest's roots, is (I believe), through a connection to the name "COULDREY". I did a bit more searching, seems now this name might be English (rather than Scottish) ? Ernest obviously had some attachment to, or some pride in this name, to have passed it on to his son ?

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Wednesday 25 March 09 22:06 GMT (UK): Hi Lu and Suzy,
Yes that is them in Ballantyne st on the Electoral Roll. I found them at Ancestry. I have their death certificates and it appears they went from NZ and settled in Sydney and then Ernest and Adela came to Victoria in about 1923. Their son Jack married Lorna Marion Wheeler in 1929 and they can be found on the NSW Electoral roll in 1930 but then have come to Victoria and are found on the Victorian Electoral Roll in 1931.

I have just received the "Birth" Certicate of Jack Ernest from NZ - not happy !!
It came with a letter saying they are "unable to issue the printout in the original jhandwritten format as legislation has been passed since the time of the record being registered, which prohibits certain information being stated"

The only thing on the printout that I didn't know is that the birth took place at Vogeltown, Melrose. (which explains his twin Iris Daphne Vogel Levy ?)

What information are they witholding from me? I wish they would tell you that they can't give any more information than was on the index BEFORE you go and pay the money for nothing!

Jack's mother was listed as Adela Amelia on her birth. Why would just Amelia appear on her children's birth records? All the records I have found in Australia just list her as 'Adela' whith no mention of the Amelia. She had four children to Ernest Cameron - I assaume that they would have been living together. I feel like Ernest was trying to hide something (his past?)

Aarrggg, this is frustrating!!

Thanks all of you for your help!

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 25 March 09 23:18 GMT (UK): Hi Loz :)

Yep, I share the ARRRGGGHH !! ... with you !
(Along with the disgust I have for NZ BDM in the way they withhold info from these (historical) records) !

I actually can't believe that they (BMD), have now displayed all these historical records online "giving Mother's name and showing Father as N/R (not recorded)". That is usually a dead giveaway, that these births were "out of wedlock". SO, yes, what are BMD trying to hide ??
NZ BMD certainly need to get their act together ... (1) by offering this meagre info at a reduced cost ... and (2) making it known, that if you apply for a printout such as this ("Father's name N/R"), then you can expect very limited info, as a result !

Quote from: lozzab on Wednesday 25 March 09 22:06 GMT (UK)

What information are they witholding from me?

Honestly can't answer that question ... sorry. :( [A while ago I applied for a similar-type printout - it came in the format of what BMD call a "white copy" ... i.e. limited information (for the mother and child) transcribed by BMD onto a piece of white computer paper (the variety with the holes punched in it) ! But ... I didn't get the covering letter of explanation - BMD have only recently started doing that.]

Ah ... so Iris Daphne has an additional name (Vogel) ?
Vogeltown and Melrose are actually two different suburbs of Wellington ... and they are quite a distance apart ! (Separated by the suburbs of Island Bay to the South, or Berhampore to the North .... and I always thought that Mornington (suburb) was the earlier name for what is now Vogeltown ?) So that is jolly interesting !

* Was there an actual street address given (for Vogeltown / Melrose) ?

* Is the informant's name given ?

continued .... next post ...

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 25 March 09 23:40 GMT (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Wednesday 25 March 09 22:06 GMT (UK)

Jack's mother was listed as Adela Amelia on her birth. Why would just Amelia appear on her children's birth records?
All the records I have found in Australia just list her as 'Adela' whith no mention of the Amelia. She had four children to Ernest Cameron - I assaume that they would have been living together. I feel like Ernest was trying to hide something (his past?)

Hi Loz

Yes, have to agree now, that Ernest really does seem to have had "a past", that he was endeavouring to keep hidden. ::)

And perhaps having Adela appear as "Amelia" on her children's birth records, may have been part of "a scheme" ?? (Note: Adela's own birth is registered as "Adela Amelia" in the historical online index).

I've checked Wellington electoral rolls / directories ... and a few "Ernest CAMERONs" have surfaced ... but have managed to eliminate them (because later rolls show them at same address with a wife, or ... they include (later) a second christian name.)

There is one "Ernest CAMERON" though, I haven't totally discounted - he is recorded as a "foreman" living at Hanson Street (which now I think about it, is close to the border of the Vogeltown suburb) ??? So will have another look at that.

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 26 March 09 03:35 GMT (UK): Hi Lu,
Yes - this is a "white copy" - it a computer generated page.
States - first names - Jack Ernest Cameron
Surname - Levy
dob - 07/09/1905
Birhplace - Vogeltown Melrose

and then mother - Amelia Levy age 26, born Wellington.
No home address or any other details.
No details at all for father or parents relationship.

First Informant - Description Authorised Agent - E Heide, Vogeltown.

That's it!!! :-[ (Interesting that Vogeltown and Melrose are not same place!)

I have got Iris' marriage certificate and it states on that her full name is"Iris Daphne Vogel Cameron". How did they get married/died as 'Cameron" when their birth certificates had the surname LEVY on them???

I sent a letter to Phyllis' daughter last week, asking if she had any info. She rang and left a message on my machine that she was going away for a week and she would ring again when she got back. Also said that she didn't know much. I'm hoping she may have some documents or something that may help!?

My mother said that she never imagined that they had never been married. She knew her grandparents - but in those days people didn't talk about their pasts.

Thansk so much for your help LU :)
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 26 March 09 04:37 GMT (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Monday 16 March 09 00:53 GMT (UK)

Ernest's middle is "Hugh" on his wife's death cert (she died a number of years before him - and I figure this shoudl be correct as he would have provided the info for the death certificate??)
His middle name is "Howard" on his death cert. and is "Hyde" on his daughter's (Iris) marriage certificate.

Quote from: lozzab on Thursday 26 March 09 03:35 GMT (UK)

First Informant - Description Authorised Agent - E Heide, Vogeltown.

Hi Loz :)

Now I'm excited !! :D

Can you see a "possible" connection with the "HYDE" (on Iris's marriage cert.) ... and "E. HEIDE" (the "authorised agent" on Jack's birth record) ?

[HYDE ... and ... HEIDE (which I would pronounce as "hide"].

"E. HEIDE" ... is very possibly "Ernest" ?

[So was that the surname he was "hiding" (HYDE-ing -HEIDE-ing) under ? ] Sorry, couldn't resist that. ::)

OK ... when I've got five minutes, will check those Wellington rolls again.

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 26 March 09 04:45 GMT (UK): Lu,

I hadn't even thought to connect that! You are good!!!!! Mmmmm - what the hell was he "heiding"??
So - do you think Cameron was his correct name and poss. just used Heide? I don't know if it is worth my while ordering the other children's birth certificates - if they will only release as little as Jack's?

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 26 March 09 05:07 GMT (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Thursday 26 March 09 04:45 GMT (UK)

Mmmmm - what the hell was he "heiding"??

:D :D :D Yeah, good question ! ;)

I've also been sitting on this > >

Submitted entry from familysearch.org (LDS) :

~~Sarah COULDREY - born: abt. 1834 - of Clevedon, Auckland, NZ~~

~~Marriage to: Thomas HYDE - 1870 - Clevedon, Auckland~~

~~[On same LDS film is a birth for Thomas HYDE - born : 5 November 1832 .... died : 20 May 1911 :~~ ]

Edit: New info suggests above couple had only one son b. 1870 - Sarah appears to have died 1871.

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 26 March 09 05:29 GMT (UK): Hi Loz

Sorry ... the excitement was getting to me - I didn't answer your previous posts.

Quote from: lozzab on Thursday 26 March 09 03:35 GMT (UK)

I have got Iris' marriage certificate and it states on that her full name is"Iris Daphne Vogel Cameron".

How did they get married/died as 'Cameron" when their birth certificates had the surname LEVY on them???

I think quite probably that if you'd "adopted" a new name / or had proof that that was the name you were commonly known as, then "proof by way of an actual birth cert." was possibly not required. It may be though that a statutory declaration of proof of name/identity, was required ? (But maybe, you didn't have to go to that trouble, at all ?).

Yes, that "Melrose" and "Vogeltown" business is indeed odd.
(I've lived in both those suburbs, so have a handle on where they are. ;))

Just a couple of things, if you could check please ?

* Iris's marriage cert. ... is her father Ernest, a witness to that marriage, by chance ?

* Voyage - Wellington to Melbourne, June 1909 "Moana" ... is there a "Mr. HEIDE / HYDE" aboard ?

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 26 March 09 05:42 GMT (UK): Lu,
No Ernest wasn't a witness on Iris' marriage cert. Her sister Phyllis was.
There was no Mr Hyde/Heide on the Moana.

I'm hoping that Phyllis's daughter will have a copy of Phyllis' birth, marriage and death certificates and they that may have a clue.
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Friday 27 March 09 05:59 GMT (UK): I went to the Springvale Botanical Garden today (Cemtery) Adela and Ernest are under a rose tree and Jack and his wife Lorna are in a wall niche. Adela and Ernest's plaques are very simple with just their name (no middle names) age and date of death. This is the first time I have seen them.

I also asked at Admin if there was any further information known about them. The girl was very nice and took my details saying she would have a look at the original records. She rang me some hours later and said there was nothing further to add.

Adela's parents, Henry and Leah (nee Marks) LEVY, were married in Hokitika (which is on the south Island??) but were buried at Karori Cemetery, which suggests they moved to Wellington at some stage.
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 28 March 09 09:30 GMT (UK): Hi Loz :)

What a pity there was no further info available from the cemetery ... still nice though, that you got to visit and see their final resting place.

I've now satisfied myself, that "your particular Ernest CAMERON" was not known by that name, whilst living in Wellington. I've re-checked all the rolls and directories.
However, there is somebody else I've gathered a lot of info for, whom I think pretty much fits the bill. (I just don't want to post the name on here yet, in case I have it wrong. ;) )
There were no entries on E/rolls at all for Adela.

What is needed now, is any further info Phyllis's daughter might be able to supply from BDM certs (especially concerning this "Heide" - or similar name). If perhaps there is nothing on those, then I think getting the birth record for the last-born, Stewart, would be a good idea. (Sorry, I know it's more $$ - but knowing where he was born (suburb/ street) and the name of the informant, will help solve this puzzle).

All the children were Wellington-born (except that Phyllis's birth was registerd at Petone - which is on the northern reaches of Wellington harbour, but is essentially still Wellington.)

Quote from: lozzab on Friday 27 March 09 05:59 GMT (UK)

Adela's parents, Henry and Leah (nee Marks) LEVY, were married in Hokitika (which is on the south Island??) but were buried at Karori Cemetery, which suggests they moved to Wellington at some stage.

Yes, looks like they arrived in Wellington before Adela's birth in 1876 ? As they married in 1868, I think there are possibly some older children ? But for these earlier births, the names of parents are not shown on the online index. ::) If you have another look at "PapersPast" (search on "West Coast Times"), you'll see a birth of a daughter to a Mrs Henry LEVY. (There were two Henry LEVY's in Hokitika at the time - the other a "Henry Z. LEVY" ) but I think the birth before 1876, was probably a child of Henry and Leah ? When you get their death certs. you may be able to tell from that, provided the child was still living when the parents died.

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 02 April 09 23:45 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Thursday 26 March 09 03:35 GMT (UK)

Yes - this is a "white copy" - it a computer generated page.
States - first names - Jack Ernest Cameron
Surname - Levy
dob - 07/09/1905
Birthplace - Vogeltown Melrose

First Informant - Description Authorised Agent - E Heide, Vogeltown.

That's it!!! :-[ (Interesting that Vogeltown and Melrose are not same place!)

Hi Loz

Just a correction here. ;)

It is true that Vogeltown and Melrose were indeed separate suburbs of Wellington (and that they are quite some distance apart). However, when I was looking at some old Wellington directories, (c. 1902 & 1905) I found that there had been a "Melrose District" (apparently used by the then Wellington City authorities, for "rating" purposes) ... and this "district" included many other suburbs which were even further in distance, than Vogeltown and the Melrose suburb !

So yes, Jack's place of birth was Vogeltown, Melrose District, Wellington .

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Saturday 25 April 09 10:16 BST (UK): Ok - with the wonderful help from Lu - it is now thought that Ernest Cameron was NOT his real name and he was actually Edgar HYDE (b: 1876 Auckland) and changed his name when he stepped on the boat to australia.

I got Edgar's first marriage certificate (before he set up with my g-grandmother) and his parents are Charles HYDE and Eliza DORKES (? - looks like). Edgar married a Isabel EARLEY, father Robert EARLEY and mother Esther MOYLE)

I can't find a marriage in New Zealand for Charles and Eliza and have no idea what country they may have come from. Does anyone have any ideas?

I have got the birth certificates now for Jack Ernest Cameron LEVY (an E. HEIDE was the informant) and the younger brother Stewart Couldrey LEVY (Informant was a "Te Koroneko)

.....Lu - over to you :)
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 25 April 09 14:39 BST (UK): Hi again Loz

As there's been that very long wait from BDM (NZ) for Stewart's birth record (which ultimately didn't provide the extra clue, hoped for), and a good deal of "nutting this out" has been done via PM in the meantime, I'll now attempt to summarise where we are "at". :D

Summary

Death Certificate - Ernest CAMERON - born New Zealand - died Victoria, Australia, 1958 - 82 years - (bc 1876 ) :
Wife: Adela CAMERON (nee LEVY)
Married: 1902 Wellington (No NZ marriage found.)

Children: Jack Ernest Cameron and Iris Daphne Vogel (b. 1905), Phyllis Raoni (b. 1906) and Stewart Couldrey (b. 1908).
All registered at Wellington NZ under the surname of LEVY - Mother shown as "Amelia LEVY" - father's name not recorded. * "Amelia LEVY" is known to be Adela Amelia LEVY born 1876 at Wellington.)
Ernest CAMERON - occcupation:
(Land Agent - as per his son Jack's marriage cert. 1929)

* 1909 - A "Mrs CAMERON and 3 children, plus an infant" found on passenger list - NZ to Victoria - "Moana" - June 1909, are a good match for Adela and her children.

* An extensive search had been made for an "Ernest CAMERON" - born in NZ - and living in Wellington at the time his children are born there. (Nothing found).

* All persons named "Ernest CAMERON" who feature on directories/electoral rolls in Wellington between 1897 and 1922, have been accounted for, and none are "Ernest CAMERON", the subject of this search.

Ernest CAMERON ... possibly "Ernest HEIDE" or "HYDE" ??

* Two clues, prompted this search. ( Post # 24 )

(1) Ernest CAMERON's daughter (Iris), states on her marriage certificate, that her father is "Ernest Hyde CAMERON".

(2) The birth cert. for Jack Ernest Cameron LEVY (1905) shows the informant to be, "E. HEIDE".
("HEIDE" used instead of "HYDE" ?? )
(Note: Also, Mother's name is stated as "Amelia" yet on NZ school records she appears to be "Adela" and on moving to Australia, uses that name.)

* Searches of Wellington directories and e/rolls (1897 - 1922), reveal an "Edgar HYDE" ... but nobody by the name of "Ernest HYDE" - nor was the name "HEIDE" found at all, in NZ).

continued ... next post
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 25 April 09 15:21 BST (UK): Ernest CAMERON - "Edgar HYDE"

Summary .... continued

* There is a birth registered at Auckland - 1876 - for an Edgar HYDE. (Note: 1876 also matches the birth year given for Ernest CAMERON.)

* A marriage has been found for this Edgar HYDE (to Isabel EARLEY - 1899) and a son (Edgar Ivon) born in 1900.
Later edit: No "divorce" noted on the marriage cert which "Loz" now has.

* Isabel HYDE (the wife), disappears from electoral roll in Wellington in 1903.

* School records for their child (E. Ivon) have him in Taranaki in 1906 (Parent/guardian - Mrs Hyde) .. and in 1908 in Wellington (P/guardian - Edgar Hyde).

* Edgar HYDE appears in directories (NZPO, Stones and Wises) and electoral rolls at Wellington - listed as a "commission agent" (mainly) and in 1908 as a "land agent".

* Articles and advertisements (in the "Evening Post" at PapersPast) 1901 to 1908, give much info regarding his business dealings (as a commission and land agent).
------------------------------------

A further "clue" that Ernest CAMERON could be Edgar HYDE, is found in the (1985) will of Ernest CAMERON's daughter (Iris) where she makes a bequest to "Sue BOYD - my 3rd cousin". (Sue BOYD is known to have come from NZ).
In 1901, Edgar HYDE is in a business partnership with a "Charles BOYD" at Wellington.
This Charles BOYD appears to be the same person who married an Eliza Elizabeth HYDE (b. 1878 NZ) - though Eliza has different parents to Edgar HYDE - she may be his cousin ?
(Still searching for a "Sue BOYD" (Susan, Susannah etc. ) possibly born after 1909 ?) .

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: DotBrennan on Sunday 26 April 09 05:29 BST (UK): Hi Lu/Loz

The historical deaths show 3 Susan BOYD deaths, but they are all born pre1900, BUT there is a Catherine Susan Mary BOYD death in 1988 with a DoB of 1907 which may be worth following……
…and a Probate @ Ch’ch.

(over to “super sleuth” Lu)

Bren
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Sunday 26 April 09 10:46 BST (UK): Hi LU,
yesterday I trawled through Papers Past for the name "Couldrey" (Stewart's middle name)
There are several references to Messrs HYDE and COULDREY. They hosted several gatherings/games days for children in Wairoa between Christmas and New Years - for several years. It appears that Thomas HYDE and George COULDREY ran business (a store) together. In another newspaper article a Martha HYDE married a Henry POYNTER and the bridesmaids were 2 Misses HYDES and 2 Misses COULDREY. The article goes on to say the bridesmaids were "all of differnet families though related".

Another article says George COULDREY arrived NZ 1863 aboard the "Annie WILSON"

More evidence of the HYDEand COULDREY being connected and Ernest being Edgar HYDE??

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 26 April 09 20:30 BST (UK): Hi Bren

Many thanks. :) Will certainly check out each of those.

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 26 April 09 21:24 BST (UK): Hi Loz :)

Yes, those are the articles I found earlier and I'm pretty sure that Edgar HYDE is part of this particular HYDE/COULDREY clan who were in the Wairoa South/Clevedon area. (And that school record for Edgar shows that in the 1880's, he was at Clevedon school).

Thomas HYDE and George COULDREY also ran a boat/ferry service (before they had the store - or it may have been part of that business ?).

The Thomas HYDE referred to, is listed on the IGI with a (first wife) named Sarah COULDREY ?? (They had one son -William ? from memory - and he was not the father of Edgar - so there has to be some other Hyde/Couldrey connection?)
And somewhere I read also, that this Thomas had previously been in Adelaide, which makes me wonder if that might be where the COULDREY link comes from ?
Gawd ... sorting out these other "related" families though, is a bit complicated ! :D

I think it might be a good idea, to get Edgar HYDE's 1876 birth cert. ? Especially to confirm his mother's maiden name.

I'll take another look at these articles.

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 26 April 09 23:09 BST (UK): Hi again Loz

A "wee" breakthrough ! :D :D

Passenger List

"Excelsior" - London to Auckland - arrived 3 August 1870

HYDE - Charles and Eliza

... and children

Frederick / James / Thomas / Lizzie / Anne / Martha and Harriet.

(No ages listed for any of them). :(

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 26 April 09 23:17 BST (UK): AND ....

This marriage ! FREE BMD (UK)

Marriage - Dec - 1857

Charles HYDE (also indexed as "HIDE")
Eliza DOR[HK] ES

Reg'd at. St. Neots. (Boundary of Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire & Huntingdonshire)

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 26 April 09 23:34 BST (UK): --- BIRTHS (reg'd at St. Neots)

Sept - 1858
HYDE - Frederick

March - 1860
HYDE - James

Dec - 1866
HYDE - Elizabeth (Lizzie ??)

Sept - 1868
HYDE - Annie (Anne ??)

(Will need to take a closer look for the other children).

Hmmm ... so (with the marriage above and these other children also reg'd. at "St. Neots" ), looking like very much like Edgar's family !!

(?? Seems like Edgar (1876) might have been the last of the line ?)

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: DotBrennan on Monday 27 April 09 00:19 BST (UK): Hi Lu

Quote from: Lucy2 on Sunday 26 April 09 23:09 BST (UK)
... and children
Frederick / James / Thomas / Lizzie / Anne / Martha and Harriet.[/b]
(No ages listed for any of them). :(

according to here:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/Excelsior1870.htm
Harriet was Born at sea 17/07/1870

(every little helps.....)

Bren
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 27 April 09 01:49 BST (UK): Quote from: KiwiBrennan on Monday 27 April 09 00:19 BST (UK)

(every little helps.....)

It sure does ! :) And many thanks Bren .... ( :-[ gawd .... that was the list I looked at too ... can't believe I missed the bit about Harriet).

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Monday 27 April 09 02:29 BST (UK): Wow guys,
thanks for all the info! I'd tried to look for Charles and Eliza's marriage on Free BMD but couldn't find It - thanks Lu! This is so exciting - I wish I didn't ahve to go to work this arvo!

Lu - do you think George was possible Sarah COULDREY'S brother? - and that's how the Couldrey line continued in NZ?

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: DotBrennan on Monday 27 April 09 06:03 BST (UK): Hi Lu

Glad to help.
Thought you may have used the Auck City Library site which doesn’t have that extra info.

I found the marriage for that Catherine Susan Mary BOYD.
As it is less that 80 years ago, I will PM you the details.
Also it appears that this was her 2nd marriage as there are 2 names, neither of which show up on a search, so the first marriage must have been overseas.
Therefore still don’t know what her maiden name was…..

Bren
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 27 April 09 21:58 BST (UK): Quote from: KiwiBrennan on Monday 27 April 09 06:03 BST (UK)

Thought you may have used the Auck City Library site which doesn’t have that extra info.

Ah yes, Auck. Library site ... that's where I'd spotted it ... (so I don't need new specs, after all ? ) :D

Many thanks Bren ... (and I think I've now managed also to sort out this "Susan BOYD").

Cheers
Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 27 April 09 23:12 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Monday 27 April 09 02:29 BST (UK)

Lu - do you think George was possible Sarah COULDREY'S brother? - and that's how the Couldrey line continued in NZ?

Hi Loz

Mmmm ... I'm just racking my brain ever so hard over these COULDREY's ... and there's nothing "jumping out" at the moment. :D

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Tuesday 28 April 09 11:37 BST (UK): Hi Lu,
I'm pretty sure now that Sarah and George Couldrey were brother and sister and another brother, Robert also came to New Zealand with his wife Emily Sophia (nee Thomas) and their daughter, also Sarah.

I found the family indexed under "Cowarey" in the 1841 Census
William Couldrey -Head b: about 1801 Abingdon, Berkshire, England - Porter
Sarah - wife b: 1803, Radley, Berkshire
Children

Emma - b: 1829
William - B: 1831
Edwin- b:1833
Ellen- b: 1834
George- b: 1835
Sarah- b:1836
Robert - b:1838
Elizabeth - b: 1840

so looks like George arrived in NZ in 1863 and set up business with Thomas HYDE and then sent for sister, Sarah who came out and married his good mate and business partner, Thomas HYDE, had one child to him (William John HYDE) and then died.

Brother , Robert, wife Emily Sophia and daughter Sarah, have also come out at some stage.

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Tuesday 28 April 09 11:47 BST (UK): I have also had a look at the HYDE families.

Thomas Hyde (1832)- (who married Sarah COULDREY) and Charles HYDE (1831)- (who was Edgar's father) were brothers from Buckdon, Huntingdonshire!

There were about 12 children in that family - their father being John HYDE (b:1800) and mother Mary ARBON. (They married 13/07/1829) - Buckdon. (I found them on the IGI)

In the NZ indexes - there is a marriage for a Herbert Arbon COULDREY marrying a Rose TRUST in 1907. I can't work out yet who his parents are - but the ARBON name has come from the HYDE family and been used by the COULDREY family! (Now - I'm getting confused!)

AS well as Thomas and Charles coming to NZ - two of their sisters, Martha and Harriet also went to NZ and married there.

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Tuesday 28 April 09 12:23 BST (UK): 1851
Thames St, St Nicholas, Abingdon
William COULDREY, head mar 50, Wine cellar man, born St Helen Abingdon
Sarah COULDREY, wife mar 48, born Radley
William COULDREY jnr, son unm 20, Carpenter, born St Helen, Abingdon
George COULDREY, son 16, Drapers Porter, born ditto
Sarah COULDREY, dau 15, Errand girl, born ditto
Robert COULDREY, son 13, Shoemaker, born St Nicholas, Abingdon
Elizabeth COULDREY, dau 10, Scholar, born ditto
HO107 1688 328 32

1861
Thames St, St Nicholas, Abingdon
William COULDREY, head mar 61, Miller, born Abingdon, Berks
Sarah COULDREY, wife mar 56, born Radley, Berks
Sarah COULDREY, dau unm 24, Needlewoman, born Abingdon, Berks
Robert COULDREY, son unm 23, Shoemaker, born ditto
Elizabeth COULDREY, dau unm 20, House work, born ditto
RG9 732 18 29

William snr is still around in 1871 and 1881 living in an Almshouse in Abingdon. He was a widower so Sarah died between 1861 and 1871.

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Tuesday 28 April 09 12:39 BST (UK): 1851
High St, Buckden, Huntingdonshire
John HYDE, head mar 51, Ag lab, born Hunts, Buckden
Mary HYDE, wife mar 41, born Cambs, Gravely
Charles HYDE, son unm 19, Ag lab, born Hunts, Buckden
Tom HYDE, son unm 18, Ag lab, born ditto
Benjamin HYDE, son 11, Ag lab, born ditto
Mary A HYDE, dau 10, born ditto
Susan HYDE, dau 7, born ditto
Harriot HYDE, dau 3, born ditto
Martha HYDE, dau 10mo, born ditto
Henry HYDE, brother unm 40, Ag lab, born ditto
HO107 1750 91 22

1861
High St, Buckden
John HYDE, head mar 61, Shepherd, born Hunts, Buckden
Mary HYDE, wife mar 51, born Hunts, Hemingford
Benjamin HYDE, son unm 21, Ag lab, born Hunts, Buckden
Harriet HYDE, dau unm 13, born ditto
Martha HYDE, dau 10, born ditto
Emma HYDE, dau 8, born ditto
RG9 981 145 15

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 29 April 09 09:25 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Tuesday 28 April 09 11:37 BST (UK)

I found the family indexed under "Cowarey" in the 1841 Census

Hi Loz

Excellent work !! Well done ! :)

(Was just about to suggest census look-ups ... so, you're really "on the ball" ! Sorry, have been flat out with other stuff so haven't had time to do look-ups ... but right back into now).

Well done too, to Ian ... great census info. :)

Just going to read all this new info again ... so I know where I'm at !

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 30 April 09 01:12 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Tuesday 28 April 09 11:47 BST (UK)

AS well as Thomas and Charles coming to NZ - two of their sisters, Martha and Harriet also went to NZ and married there.

Hi Loz

Martha HYDE (sister of Thomas and Charles), appears to be the lady whose marriage features in the PapersPast article (1891) - and where it is mentioned that "her bridesmaids were the two Misses HYDE and two Misses COULDREY - all of different families, but related".
["Observer" - 7 March 1891 - "Clevedon" ]

Marriage

Martha HYDE - Henry Umpton POYNTER - 1891

[He appears to have been a widower (m. Eliza PARKER - 1868 - reg'd. Berkshire) - a number of children born in NZ. ]

Deaths

Martha POYNTER - not showing up on Hist. online index ? - but buried with husband at Waikaraka Cem. - she died 27 September 1914 aged 64 (bc 1850).
Henry Umpton POYNTER d. 11 Feb 1918 - 72 yrs. (cem. record
states "d.o.d. - 1928" which is obviously an error).
[Both of Onehunga, Auck. - Probate records at Archives, Auckland.]

Can't find Martha or Harriet on passenger lists to NZ ?
EDIT : New information July 2009 from will of Eliza HYDE (d. 1931) which names her children, confirms that she didn't in fact have daughters named "Martha and Harriet". The Martha and Harriet HYDE who appear on the passenger list of the "Excelsior" (arr. Auckland 3/8/1870) along with Charles, Eliza, and children, now appear to be the sisters of Charles HYDE. (No ages are given on the passenger list to verify this.)

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 30 April 09 06:11 BST (UK): HI Lu and others - thanks for your fantastic help!!

Found the other Hyde sister, Harriet's marriage - she married Alexander CRAWFORD 1873.

Back to the COULDREY'S - George and Maria (can't find their marriage - but she was listed on same ship as George in 1863)

Their children - Louisa b: 1866 (never married - died 1942)
Florence - 1870 (married Hector Hugh GEORGE in 1896 and
George b:1876 (married Jane Alexandina MUNRO in 1901)

Lu - in that marriage article - W. COULDREY was the bestman. I have found a William COULDREY marrying a Jessie Sutherland GEORGE (Hector's sister?)1901 but I'm not sure yet which COULDREY family HE BELONGS TO!!

George's brother, Robert and wife Emily Sophie, came out with one daughter, Bessie and then had another, Sarah.

So the bridesmaids must have been one of George's daughter's, one of Robert's daughter's, one of Thomas HYDE'S daughter's and one of Charles HYDE'S daughter's?

This is amazing from knowing nothing about this line just a few weeks ago to all this - it's great!!

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: JustinL on Thursday 30 April 09 09:50 BST (UK): Loz,

Have you traced the Levy and Jones/Jonas families roots in London (Great Synagogue records, etc.)?

Henry had 8 siblings, and large number of uncles and aunts.

Justin
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 30 April 09 15:54 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Thursday 30 April 09 06:11 BST (UK)

Found the other Hyde sister, Harriet's marriage - she married Alexander CRAWFORD 1873.

Hi Loz

Good work ! :)

Harriet CRAWFORD appears to have died in 1936 aged 87 !
(Couldn't find any issue for this couple ? Alexander possibly died in 1895 ? And there's a probate record for that name - at Whatawhata in the Waikato area ??)

Like you, neither could I find a George COULDREY marriage - with bride "Maria" - (may be indexed under a weird spelling perhaps ?)

Robert and Emily Sophia's daughter Bessie, was born NZ in 1884.

"Mr. W. COULDREY, of Maraetai, best man at the HYDE/POYNTER wedding 1891" :

This looks to be "William COULDREY - farmer of Maraetai on 1893 electoral roll".
[Also at Maraetai same year - COULDREY -George, (farmer) Maria, Louisa and ... Edwin (farmer) ].

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 30 April 09 16:06 BST (UK): ---- Edwin COULDREY

Died 1942 - aged 72 - (bc 1870)

... must be son of George and Maria ... can't see a birth rego for him in NZ ?

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 30 April 09 16:24 BST (UK): ---- "Twin daughters of Mr and Mrs Charles HYDE - b. 1872"

Hmmm ... their births were announced in the local newspaper ... BUT ... have now checked the registration districts for births of four HYDE children that year ... AND ... it appears the twins were not officially registered.

[BIRTHS - 1872 - HYDE : Agnes Kate (reg. Wellington), Alfred Hammond (Nelson), Eliza Elizabeth (Cambridge) and Lily Maria (at Christchurch) ].

All the other children of Charles and Eliza seem to have had only a single christian name - so expect the twins did have too ?

Might be worth seeking a schools records look up to see if they can be found ? Edgar was 4 years younger and firstly at Clevedon School, then transferred to Tuakau school in 1884.

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 30 April 09 16:35 BST (UK): ---- Ooooh ! And dig this !!!! :D :D

Eliza HYDE - died, aged 99 years - in 1931 !!!

Have just found burials for Charles (1901) and Eliza (1931) at Tuakau Cemetery ... M/I's available too (will get these for you also).

So that 1901 probate is the correct one. (And I think there might be one also for Eliza ??)

Lu

Added: YES, probate record at Archives NZ, Auckland, for "Eliza HYDE - Tuakau - widow - 1931" :
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Friday 01 May 09 09:25 BST (UK): HI Lu,
Aahh - that's interesting that william was with George and Edwin. I found a marriage, children and death for Edwin but didn't know where he fitted in. So - you do think maybe that William and Edwin were both George and Maria's sons? There is also Herbert Arbon COULDREY b :1873.

I suppose the only way I can confirm is to get George's death certificate?

The jigsaw puzzle is slowly coming together!!
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Friday 01 May 09 09:29 BST (UK): Quote from: JustinL on Thursday 30 April 09 09:50 BST (UK)
Loz,

Have you traced the Levy and Jones/Jonas families roots in London (Great Synagogue records, etc.)?

Henry had 8 siblings, and large number of uncles and aunts.

Justin

Justin
Hi- I have traced some of the Levy family just using the Census records so far.. How do you check the Great Synagogue Records?

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: JustinL on Friday 01 May 09 10:58 BST (UK): Loz,

The records are online in various Excel and PDF files. But I've already compiled them for you!

You've got a large family to research now.

Justin
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: JustinL on Friday 01 May 09 11:04 BST (UK): Loz,

Doing a google search for 'Lezer Blaz' brings up this site, that I was unable to view from my office PC.

http://www.geocities.com/senojekips/Jones/GGchartGC.htm

It's questionable whether Peschia Bloz is related to Eliezer Lezer Blez/Blaz.

Justin
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Saturday 02 May 09 09:34 BST (UK): HI Justin,
Thanks very much for that!!

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 02 May 09 15:05 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Friday 01 May 09 09:25 BST (UK)

So - you do think maybe that William and Edwin were both George and Maria's sons? There is also Herbert Arbon COULDREY b :1873.

--- Check out Archives NZ "Archway" website. There are probate records on there for many of the COULDREYs which give occupations and places of residence - some of which are common to those mentioned above.

George and Maria are buried at Clevedon cemetery - the others, (the boys) all appear to be at Glenfield/Birkenhead - different plots, but may be an indication that they have a close family connection ?

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Sunday 03 May 09 05:40 BST (UK): Thanks Lu,

A question about the probates - can you order them on-line to be posted out or can you only view them in their office?

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 03 May 09 06:47 BST (UK): Hi Loz

Just go to the Archives NZ website - all details for ordering are there ... (from memory ?? - info. about same, comes under the heading of "Remote Service" ... a strange heading, eh ?).

Did you also see on those pages (on Archway), under COULDREY ... that those fellas were in a spot of bother for having "poached" (nicked), oysters. ??

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Sunday 03 May 09 07:02 BST (UK): Yeah Lu, I did see that! Thought that would've have been a more recent"law". he he.

I've just ordered the death certificates of George COULDREY and Charles HYDE. (would be nice if Charles' cert. said - son Edgar now known as Ernest Cameron!!). I'll let you know when I get them.

I'm trying to sort out all of this information to see where we're at.

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 03 May 09 07:34 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Sunday 03 May 09 07:02 BST (UK)

I've just ordered the death certificates of George COULDREY and Charles HYDE. (would be nice if Charles' cert. said - son Edgar now known as Ernest Cameron!!).

:D Yes, it would ... but these NZ death certs. don't give the actual names of children of the deceased ... they only show the ages of their "living issue". :(

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Sunday 03 May 09 09:00 BST (UK): Oh >:( I thought they would have the names of the children like they do on Australian certificates !

So - I would have been better spending my 20 bucks on the probate records instead of the death certificates? I wish I knew that before i ordered. I'll check with you before i order anything else!!
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: DotBrennan on Sunday 03 May 09 22:34 BST (UK): Hi Lozz

Quote from: lozzab on Sunday 03 May 09 09:00 BST (UK)
Oh >:( I thought they would have the names of the children like they do on Australian certificates !

So - I would have been better spending my 20 bucks on the probate records instead of the death certificates? I wish I knew that before i ordered. I'll check with you before i order anything else!!

If you check this topic on the Resources Board you will see exactly what information you can expect on the various certs/printouts.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,259108.0.html

Bren
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Tuesday 05 May 09 07:58 BST (UK): St Helen Abingdon PRs ex OFHS

Baptisms
1800 13 Apr, COULDREY William, s/o Robert & Elizabeth
1828 30 Nov, Emma, d/o William & Sarah, Labourer, West St Helens St
1830 29 Aug, William, s/o William & Sarah, Servant, ditto
1831 4 Dec, Edwin, s/o William & Sarah, Labourer, ditto
1833 24 Feb, Ellen, d/o William & Sarah, Labourer, ditto
1834 28 Dec, George, s/o William & Sarah, Labourer, ditto
1836 8 May, Sarah, d/o William & Sarah, Labourer, Sheep Market
1838 25 Feb, Robert, s/o William & Sarah, Labourer, Sheep Market, born 25 Jan 1838
1841 11 Apr, Elizabeth, d/o William & Sarah, Labourer, Thames Street, born 16 Mar 1841

Marriage
1826 5 Nov, William COULDREY & Sarah STIMPSON

Burials
1830 Mar 7, COULDREY Robert, Vineyard, age 66
1886 Jan 18, COULDREY William, East St Helen, age 85

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Tuesday 05 May 09 08:11 BST (UK): Abingdon St Nicholas Marriage

1862 Jun 29
COULDREY Robert, f.a., bach, shoemaker, Abbey, s/o William, miller
THOMAS Emily Sophia, f.a., spin, slopmaker, Abbey, d/o Joseph, carpet weaver
wits: Charles ELDRIDGE, Sarah COULDREY, Wm FISHER, after Banns

Abingdon St Helen baptism

1764 13 May, COULDREY Robert, s/o Robert & Elizabeth, cordwainer

Abingdon St Helen marriage
1849 13 May
NORRIS Jeremiah Edward, 23, bach, Cooper, East St Helen, father Thomas NORRIS, wheelwright
COULDREY Emma, 20, spins, Abbey, father William COULDREY, cellarman
Wits: Wm SNELL, Sam SIMPSON

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Wednesday 06 May 09 03:24 BST (UK): Thanks for that info Ian!! :)

I came across one of the marriage witnesses, Charles Eldridge, the other day, I think he married one of the Coulldrey girsl. I'll have to go back and have another look.

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Wednesday 06 May 09 05:59 BST (UK): FreeBMD has a Charles ELDRIDGE and Elizabeth COULDREY in 1861 in Abingdon. Will check PRs for it tonight.

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Wednesday 06 May 09 07:23 BST (UK): Abingdon St Nicholas
1861 Sep 22
ELDRIDGE Charles, fa, bach, warehouseman, Thames St, father Charles, cabinetmaker
COULDREY Elizabeth, fa, sp, Thames St, father William, miller
Wits: Edwin COULDREY, Wm FISHER

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 07 May 09 07:10 BST (UK): Thanks heaps Ian.

Can you do me another favour and have a look for a marriage for George Couldrey? He is supposed to have married a Maria but can't find it on Free bmd.
George Couldrey and Mrs Maria Couldrey arrived in New Zealand in 1863 and then a few kids.

Cheers,
Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Thursday 07 May 09 08:43 BST (UK): Sorry no George in Abingdon that I can find.

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 07 May 09 08:55 BST (UK): Thanks Ian. Perhaps another one in the family that didn't actually marry??
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 12 May 09 13:27 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Thursday 07 May 09 08:55 BST (UK)

Perhaps another one in the family that didn't actually marry??

Hi Loz

Hmmm ... I would say that George COULDREY did marry Maria ... AND, I'm pretty sure that that is his marriage - "JUNE - 1863 - St. Neots".

However, as you will have seen on the FREE BMD entry for JUNE 1863, there are 3 grooms and only the one bride !

By scooting around the 1881 Census, I've found that the bride "Emma PEACOCK" appears to have married James JEFFS.
That then leaves a George NIGHTINGALE and George COULDREY without brides ? George NIGHTINGALE can also be found in 1881 (with a wife Sarah and a son - born St. Neots 1864). Couldn't see a suitably aged George COULDREY though in the 1881 census, so the question is, is this (1863) George, the one who has travelled to NZ ? [And just why two "brides" are missing from that June 1863 listing, is anyone's guess ? ]

But anyway, now have an idea of who George COULDREY's bride might have been ... and ... yes, I think there is a further HYDE connection ! :D

>> see next post
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 12 May 09 14:08 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Tuesday 28 April 09 11:47 BST (UK)

I have also had a look at the HYDE families.

There were about 12 children in that family - their father being John HYDE (b:1800) and mother Mary ARBON. (They married 13/07/1829) - Buckdon. (I found them on the IGI)

So looking at this HYDE family on the IGI (submitted entry) - the children of John and Mary - the names and ages stack up with those shown on the 1851 census. (I only managed to find 10 children though and two had died before 1851).

HOWEVER ... there was one child on the IGI list ... who didn't appear in the 1851 census (nor in 1861) with her parents John and Mary ... AND ... her name is Maria HYDE ! (Baptised in 1835).

Hell, I don't want to sound like a poet ... but was George COULDREY's bride, named Maria HYDE ???

(If so, then that would explain the inclusion of the ARBON name in the (NZ) COULDREY family. Herbert Arbon whom we suspect is the son of George and Maria).

M/I from All Souls (Anglican) Cemetery, Clevedon :

COULDREY - Row 7 - # 41

Maria beloved wife of George COULDREY died 2 May 1910 aged 76 years. Also her beloved husband George COULDREY died 28 July 1916, aged 81 years :

(So Maria COULDREY born circa 1834.)

And hopefully George COULDREY's d/c will confirm his wife's maiden name ?? ;)

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Wednesday 13 May 09 07:31 BST (UK): Hi LU!!! :D

I got the death certificate's in the mail this afternoon! You are sooo right! George COULDREY'S death certificate gives his wife's name as...........(drumroll)....Maria HYDE!!
They married in Buckden when he was 29 years.

The certificate states 4 male children living - ages 50,47,42,40 and two females 49 and 45 yrs.

I also got ~~Thomas~~Charles HYDE's death certificate (in the same envelope this time!) Eliza's maiden name is again hard to read - it alomost looks like "Dawkes" this time. It says he had 10 children living - 5 males, 43,42,39,28 and 25 (the 25 y.o. would Edgar) and 5 females 55,33,31,29 and 29 (the twin girls in the birth announcement).

I do wish they would list the children's names as they do in the Australian certificates.

Thanks LU!

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Wednesday 13 May 09 07:46 BST (UK): Submitted entry on IGI

Maria HYDE, baptised 26 Apr 1835, Buckden, Hunts, parents John HYDE and Mary ARBON.

FreeBMD
Maria HYDE marriage Jun qtr 1863, St Neots, 3b 455 - image clearly says 455
George COULDREY marriage Jun qtr 1863, St Neots, 3b 453 - image says 455 to me.

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Wednesday 13 May 09 07:57 BST (UK): Eliza who married Charles HYDE, her surname was DORKES according to image.

Mary ARBON married John HYDE, 13 Jul 1829, Hemingford Abbots, Huntingdon - submitted entry on IGI.

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: trish1120 on Wednesday 13 May 09 08:57 BST (UK): WHA HOO :) :)

I have been following this with great interest and you have all done an amazing job. Give yourselves a pat on the back ;D

trish
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Wednesday 13 May 09 10:35 BST (UK): Thanks Ian for your help too!!

Trish - I agree, this is great. Lu has been a fantastic help in figuring out the Edgar Hyde/Ernest Cameron mystery and thanks to all the contributors for the info that has followed since! It is very satisfying breaking through this "brick wall".

Loz :D
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 14 May 09 06:55 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Wednesday 13 May 09 07:31 BST (UK)

I also got Thomas HYDE's death certificate (in the same envelope this time!) Eliza's maiden name is again hard to read - it alomost looks like "Dawkes" this time. It says he had 10 children living - 5 males, 43,42,39,28 and 25 (the 25 y.o. would Edgar) and 5 females 55,33,31,29 and 29 (the twin girls in the birth announcement).

I do wish they would list the children's names as they do in the Australian certificates.

Oooh .... you did mean Charles HYDE (rather than Thomas) .... didn't you Loz ?? :D :D

[Looks like NZ BMD have smartened up their act, too ? That's good news.] :)

The female "aged 55" (living issue) ... bit odd ? I think that should probably have been "45" ... what do you think ?

AND ... it looks like there was another New Zealand-born son (between the births of the twins and Edgar)? There are two possibles - an "Alfred" and a "Harry" - I'll take a look at the Birth index to see if either were born around Auckland area.

So it would be interesting now to see if "Edgar" shows up as "living issue" on Eliza's (1931) death cert. ? ;)

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 14 May 09 23:52 BST (UK): Ooopps - I DID mean CHARLES HYDE ! Sorry - I had about 5 secs to post the other day and I still haven't had a chance to go back and marry up the children. (maybe tonight I'll have a proper look? ???)

Have to fly off now....

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 15 May 09 23:15 BST (UK): http://nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/name-425849.html

Photo of ... and article on ... Thomas HYDE - brother MR. C. HYDE mentioned.

Click on >> "Clevedon" link (above the photo) ... there is also an article (and photo) re: William John HYDE.

[The daughter of Thomas HYDE (by second wife Ellen BLUCK), was Jessie Elizabeth HYDE (m. 1896 Arthur Mant PERRY.]

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Monday 18 May 09 03:17 BST (UK): Hi Lu,
yes thanks - I had seen that article and photo - it helped confirmed some things.

What we do now know definately is that George Couldrey married Maria Hyde (Thomas and Charles Hyde's sister) and George was Edgar's (Ernest Cameron) Uncle - so that is where the Couldrey name comes in.

We thought that our Thomas Hyde married Sarah Couldrey (George Couldrey's sister) and that Sarah had one child and then died in 1871. (marriage on IGI- Clevedon, NZ))

NOW HERE'S A CURVE BALL! ???

I was looking at the submitted trees on ancestry and there is a tree that states our Thomas Hyde (b: 1832 Buckden) married Mary Munro SUTHERLAND(b: @1842 nova scotia). (The Sutherland and Munro families turn up later intertwined with the Couldrey/Hyde's - Mary's niece Jane Alexandrina MUNRO marries George COULDREY jnr in 1907).

I have checked NZ BDM Index on-line and there is a marriage for Mary Sutherland 1870/3260 (husband's name not on index - early entry) and there is only one entry for a marriage for Thomas Hyde - 1870/1149.

THEN - there is a death for Mary HYDE 1871/1222 (and corresponding newspaper article on Paper's Past - Daily Southern Cross 06/02/1871 - "On January 11th, at Wairoa, Auckland, Mary Sutherland, the beloved wife of Mr. Thomas Hyde. Aged 29 years."

THERE - is also a death entry for Sarah Hyde - 1871/1223 (and Daily Southern Cross 01/03/1871 - On Feb 27, Sarah, the beloved wife of Thomas Hyde."

There are two entries for marriages for Thomas HYDE a couple of years later-:
- 1873/8944 Thomas Hyde marries Emily Beagley
- 1874/6088 Thomas Hyde marries Ellen Bluck

Then there are two deaths for Thomas HYDE in 1911 !!
- 1911/3798 - aged 78 yrs ( so born 1832/33 - so "OUR" Thomas)
- 1911/6498 - aged 69 years (born @1842)

How confusing !!??
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Thamesite2017 on Monday 18 May 09 04:06 BST (UK): Re THOMAS HYDE MARRIAGES
Thomas Hyde 1854 to Sarah Dunne
Thomas Hyde 1870 Mary Sutherland
BYe
Althea
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 18 May 09 06:06 BST (UK): Hi Loz

Thomas HYDE (b. 1832)

Marriage (1) Sarah COULDREY

The only "evidence" of this marriage having taken place, comes from the IGI (submitted) entry, which states >>

"1870 - Clevedon, Auckland New Zealand" :

(This marriage does NOT appear on the NZ index (nor on the NZSG Marriages CD).

I quess now, the question is ... did Thomas travel back to Australia at some time and marry Sarah there ? (We haven't yet found Sarah's arrival in NZ ... so did she arrive here as "Mrs. HYDE " ??) Edited : New information to hand.
Will just need to dig up my notes, but pretty sure that we have an age at death for Mrs Sarah HYDE (1871) which more or less confirms that she was probably the Sarah COULDREY
who was listed in the census return with brother George. ??
Edit: Have just found info which suggests that the Sarah HYDE who died 1871 was NOT the wife of the Thomas HYDE, born 1832 ! (Mmm ... I thought that Freeman's Bay address in the death notice, was a little bit suspect) !

... Will give you more on Thomas HYDE (b. 1832) shortly.

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 18 May 09 09:55 BST (UK): --- continued - Thomas HYDE (b. 1832)

Marriage (2)

Thomas HYDE - Ellen BLUCK - 1874

[I think we can be almost certain that this is the correct 2nd marriage for Thomas ... see following M/I ] :

Burial records - All Souls Church (Anglican) - Clevedon, Auckland

Row 3 - 24 HYDE (BLUCK family plot)

Very large concrete grave with large cross tombstone in centre and with six small crosses around it :

"Tom HYDE who died 20 May 1911 in his 79th year. Also Ellen HYDE, d/beloved wife of the above and d/o Timothy BLUCK, died 13 February 1917 aged 77 years."

[In same plot : Timothy BLUCK d. 24 August 1892 - 84 years.
Also Elizabeth d/beloved w/o of above - died 1 June 1896 aged 86 years. (Didn't note the others sharing this plot) ].
--------------------------------------------

Row 6 - 38

"William John HYDE b/l husband of Clarissa, passed away 10 August 1945 (74 years). AND - Clarissa, passed away 15 March 1954 (80 years) " :

Row 10 - 55

"Jessie Elizabeth PERRY nee HYDE, b/l w/o Arthur M. PERRY, born 8 November 1874, died 15 February 1931" :
-----------------------------------------------

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 18 May 09 11:28 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Monday 18 May 09 03:17 BST (UK)

NOW HERE'S A CURVE BALL! ???

- there is a death for Mary HYDE 1871/1222 (and corresponding newspaper article on Paper's Past - Daily Southern Cross 06/02/1871 - "On January 11th, at Wairoa, Auckland, Mary Sutherland, the beloved wife of Mr. Thomas Hyde. Aged 29 years."

THERE - is also a death entry for Sarah Hyde - 1871/1223 (and Daily Southern Cross 01/03/1871 - On Feb 27, Sarah, the beloved wife of Thomas Hyde."

Well ... there you go Loz ... it always pays to check out further, those IGI submitted entries. :D

I hadn't really looked further at this Sarah COULDREY (supposed wife of Thomas HYDE (1832) ... but it struck me as rather odd, that a death for "a Sarah HYDE" was at Freeman's Bay - and that wasn't the area where Thomas HYDE (1832) had lived.

SO ... 1st wife of Thomas HYDE (1832) has to be "Mary SUTHERLAND" (m. 1870 - died 1871). :)

[The Sarah HYDE (w/o Thomas HYDE) who also died in 1871,
is buried at Symonds Street Cemetery, Auckland with her husband.
"Sarah HYDE - d. 27 February 1871 aged 57 (b.c. 1814)
Thomas Hyde - d. 31 December 1873 aged 58 (b.c. 1815) " ]

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 18 May 09 11:46 BST (UK): --- So, I'd say now, that Sarah COULDREY (sister of George), didn't ever in fact, come to New Zealand !

AND ... there are these two deaths registered at Abingdon. :-\

FREE BMD (UK)

DEATHS - JUNE - 1863

COULDREY - Sarah

-----------------------------------------

DEATHS - MARCH - 1868

COULDREY - Sarah - aged 68 years

------------------------------------------------

[The March death seems a good match for being the mother ?]

Can't see a marriage for Sarah (junior) ... she's not on 1881 census.

Can you see her in 1871 ??
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Monday 18 May 09 12:10 BST (UK): Lu,
No -I can't see Sarah Couldrey on 1871 Census either. She was unmarried in 1861 census so would have been about 26 yrs if she died in 1863.

thanks for the cemetery info - that's great!

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 18 May 09 12:28 BST (UK): Hi again Loz

You know the "peculiar" thing about Ernest (Edgar) giving this COULDREY name to his son Stewart, is that "COULDREY" isn't a surname, from Edgar's, direct line !

[It's his father's, sister's, married name]. ;)

But perhaps he was very close to his Aunt Maria ... and COULDREY cuzzies ??

Obviously though, it's great that he did saddle young Stewart with the name ... might never have bothered exploring Edgar HYDE, otherwise ? ;D

Sarah COULDREY (junior) ... yes, I do think that's her in 1863.
[Wonder if there are any burial records for Abingdon, available ?]

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 18 May 09 12:52 BST (UK): Hi Loz

Just about to slope off to bed ... but before I do, here is the link to NZSG members, researching HYDE and connected names. [Perhaps you can contact them and compare notes ? Although, some have Sarah Couldrey listed as an interest - so likely their info has come from that same IGI source ?] :D

http://www.genealogy.org.nz/Search_31.aspx

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Monday 18 May 09 21:15 BST (UK): Have the Abingdon PRs, will check tonight, unless someone beats me to it.

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Tuesday 19 May 09 04:34 BST (UK): Hi Lu,
It does sound (from the newspaper articles) that the Hydes and Couldreys were very close. Maybe Uncle George was a really good Uncle!!?? By the time Stewart was born - Edgar and Adela would have planned that they were bailing to Australia - maybe it was a deliberate clue??

It's still odd that Stewart would be know on official Australian records as Stanley Stewart (when my mother and her cousin knew him as Stewart Couldrey??

Just a thought - can we find out where Mary Sutherland Hyde (nee Munro) is buried? Maybe the inscription on her grave will tell us something?

Thanks Ian - that would great if you could check Abingdon PR's !! :)

thanks again to both of you.
Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 19 May 09 05:39 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Tuesday 19 May 09 04:34 BST (UK)

Just a thought - can we find out where Mary Sutherland Hyde (nee Munro) is buried? Maybe the inscription on her grave will tell us something?

Hi Loz

The wife of Thomas HYDE is named on the NZ Marriage Index as
Mary SUTHERLAND .... there is no mention of "Munro" - i.e. "SUTHERLAND" was her maiden name.

If you view the link to NZSG researchers (see previous post) you'll find a researcher (# S00488) who has the names HYDE, Thomas and Mary ... as well as many SUTHERLAND names. Perhaps make contact, and see what information this researcher has ?

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Tuesday 19 May 09 07:37 BST (UK): Oops - thanks Lu - I got them around the wrong way - she was Mary Munro Sutherland on the ancestry site I saw.
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Tuesday 19 May 09 08:19 BST (UK): Abingdon St Helen burials

1822 Dec 24, Mary, New Hospital, 86
1830 Mar 7, Robert, Vineyard, 66
1834 Apr 6, Elizabeth, High Street, 57
1836 Sep 3, Lydia, Boar St, 55
1837 Jun 15, Nanny, High Street, 84
1839 Apr 28, Thomas, Boar St (Vestry Clerk & Organist), 58
1841 Aug 15, Solomon, Christ's Hospital, 88
1842 Aug 5, Hannah, High St, 56
1845 Apr 20, William, Vineyard, 31
1846 Mar 11, Elizabeth, New Hospital, 82
1846 May 15, Adam, High St, 64
1846 Jul 11, William, Spring Rd, 61
1848 Sep 16, Elizabeth, Vineyard, 30
1853 Apr 21, William, High St (Drowned), 22
1862 Apr 10, Elizabeth, Broad St, 80
1867 Sep 15, Edmund Tompkins, Boar St, 59
1870 Feb 27, Joseph, Workhouse, 74
1874 Feb 8, Thomas, Ock St, 44
1878 Jan 19, Thomas, High St, 63
1886 Jan 18, William, East St Helen, 85

Abingdon St Nicholas
Nothing until
1863 May 16, Sarah, 24, Abbey, buried in Cemetery
1868 Jan 30, Sarah, 68, Thames St, buried in Cemetery
1870 Feb 28, George, 10wks, Abbey, buried in cemetery

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Tuesday 19 May 09 10:29 BST (UK): Sarah STIMPSON who married William COULDREY 1826, was born Radley according to census.

STIMSON
1797 Jan 22, James, s/o Wm & Agnes STIMSON
1798 Feb 4, Mary, d/o Wm & Agnes STIMSON
1800 Dec 7, Sarah, d/o Wm & Agnes STIMSON
1803 Jun 12, Eliz, d/o Wm & Agnes STIMSON
1805 Dec 8, Martha, d/o Wm & Agnes STIMSON
1808 Jul 24, Chas, s/o Wm & Agnes STIMSON, born 17 Jul
1811 Feb 3, George, s/o Wm & Agnes STIMSON, born 22 Dec (1810?)
1813 Oct 13, Hannah, d/o Wm & Agnes STIMSON, born 11 Oct, marr at Rad., lab
1815 Sep 24, Jane, d/o Wm & Agnes STIMPSON, born 22 Sep, lab
1815 Sep 24, Harriet, d/o Wm & Agnes STIMPSON, born 22 Sep, lab
1816 Oct 6, Esther, d/o Wm & Agnes STIMSON, born 6 Sep, marr at Rad., lab

1796 Aug 1
STIMSON Wm, b
JAMES Agnes, sp, botp
wits: John DAVIS, Rich EASON, banns

1851
Radley, Berkshire
William STIMSON, head mar 77, Farm labourer, born Berks, Ardington
Agnes STIMSON, wife mar 75, Laundress, born Berks, Chilton
Hannah STIMSON, dau unm 35, born Berks, Radley
Esther STIMSON, dau unm 32, born ditto
HO107/1688/337/6

Same place in 1841

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Tuesday 19 May 09 10:37 BST (UK): Wow - thanks so much Ian :)
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Tuesday 19 May 09 10:45 BST (UK): Chilton PRs
1774 11 May, JAMES Agnes, d/o Sylvanus & Elizabeth
1777 9 Feb, Lydia, ditto

1772 Aug 17
JAMES Sylvanus
WHITE Elizabeth
Wits: Martha PRIER, William LAMBORN, lic

Sylvanus and Elizabeth married by licence so one or both were under age.

Possible baptism for Elizabeth at Chilton
1753 Feb 11, WHITE Elizabeth, d/o Nicolas & Anne

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Tuesday 19 May 09 11:03 BST (UK): Quote from: Eyesee on Tuesday 05 May 09 07:58 BST (UK)
St Helen Abingdon PRs ex OFHS

Baptisms
1800 13 Apr, COULDREY William, s/o Robert & Elizabeth

Hey Ian - if you don't mind are you able to have a look and see if there were more children of Robert and Elizabeth Couldrey in the PR??

Thanks so much for your help :)
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Eyesee on Tuesday 19 May 09 11:57 BST (UK): 1787 Jan 30, Thomas, s/o Robert COULDREY begotten of the body of Elizabeth BRICE - in other words born out of wedlock.

Think they probably got married but can't find it, not in Abingdon

1792 Aug 24, Mary d/o Robert/Elizabeth
1800 William
1803 Aug 4, Susanna, d/o Robert/Elizabeth

Previous generation
1762 Aug 8, Mary
1764 May 13, Robert - William's father, buried 1830
1766 Mar 9, William
1768 Sep 4, Richard
1769 Dec 10, John
All children of Robert and Elizabeth, who was a cordwainer.

Burials
1764 Dec 24, unnamed child of Robert, cordwainer
1767 Nov 1, unnamed son of Robert, cordwainer
1770 Jan 1, John, son of Robert, cordwainer
1771 Apr 30, unnamed son of Robert, cordwainer
1772 Apr 12, Elizabeth, wife of Robert, cordwainer
Lots of smallpox in the mid 1770s
1787 Feb 14, unnamed child of Robert, cordwainer, bastard
1801 May 7, Robert, son of Robert & Elizabeth, schoolmaster - not sure that this is one of yours.
1802 Mar 25, Robert, sen, Hospital - probably Robert the cordwainer
Smallpox again in 1809
No more of your line until 1820s as per earlier post

Ian C
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Wednesday 20 May 09 23:50 BST (UK): Thanks Ian !
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Tuesday 26 May 09 10:23 BST (UK): Hi Lu !
I've been trying to unravel the Sutherland/Munro/George families intertwined with the Hyde/Couldrey families. I'll try to explain what I've found ???

Thomas Hyde married Mary Munro Sutherland (1870)

Mary's parents were Hector Sutherland and Jessie Ferguson and Mary had 4 sisters, Jessie, Margaret, Janet and Annie.

Margaret married - James GEORGE in 1855
Janet married - George Campbell MUNRO in 1858.

Now !
- Margaret's son - Hector Hugh GEORGE married Florence COULDREY (daughter of George COULDREY and Maria HYDE and Thomas HYDE's niece) in 1896.

- Margaret's daughter - Jessie Sutherland GEORGE (brother of Hector Hugh GEORGE) married William COULDREY (son of George COULDREY and Maria HYDE - and brother of Florence - and Thomas HYDE'S nephew) - in 1901.

- Janet's daughter - Jane Alexandrina MUNRO married George COULDREY jnr (son of George COULDREY and Maria HYDE and George jnr and Florence's brother and Thomas HYDE's nephew)

(Hector, Jessie and Jane were all Thomas Hyde's nephew/nieces by marriage also!!)

Nothing like keeping it in the family!!!

..........Annie SUTHERLAND married ..............con't next post!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Tuesday 26 May 09 10:33 BST (UK): ......Annie SUTHERLAND married John CAMERON !!!!!! (YEAH !! - at last a connection to the Cameron name!!)

John CAMERON was one of the Cameron's that came 1840 on Blenheim. Was born in Scotland.
John and Annie married 1865 in New Zealand and had five children.

Even though Edgar HYDE/Ernest CAMERON was not a blood relation of John CAMERON - maybe considering how close these families seemed to be - Edgar may have been close/admired the CAMERON family and decided to call his first born Jack (derivative of John) Cameron after them??

Oh well - I suppose I'll never know - but I'm now happy to find a "CAMERON" somewhere in the family!!!!

Again - Lu - thanks so much much for your fantastic help with all of this!! :)

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 28 May 09 02:00 BST (UK): Hi Loz :)

Mmm ... interesting, all those marriages. But these families obviously didn't move much beyond the bounds of the little settlement they were living in.

The middle name of "MUNRO" attached to Mary SUTHERLAND / HYDE is a bit puzzling ? Where did you find that ? (She was shown as only MARY SUTHERLAND on the NZ marriage index ... and as Mary HYDE on the death index).

[Incidentally, Mary appears to be the person buried as "Mary HYDE (29 years) 1871 - St Andrews (churchyard ?) Clevedon". Source: NZSG Burial Locator ].

Have you managed to find now, all the details for Edgar / Ernest's siblings ?

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 28 May 09 09:19 BST (UK): Hi Lu,
She was down on Mary Munro Sutherland on a couple of familytress I found on Ancestry.

Haven't made any progress on Edgar's siblings.

On the passenger list there was -

Frederick, james, Elizabeth, Anne, Harriett, Martha and Thomas.
Birth references were found on freebmd - for Fred, James, Elizabeth and Anne - and Harriett was born at sea.

Can't find any reference to the births of Martha or Thomas - From the death certificate of their father Charles HYDE - it appears Martha was no longer alive (but I haven't been able to find a marriage or death for her). From the death certificate - Thomas would have been born about 1863.

From the death certificate - there was another son born in about 1873. NZ bmd - there is only one Hyde male born in this year - Arthur George.

I still haven't made any progress on the names of the female twins born in 1872.

I have checked the on-line indexes for Edgar's siblings marriages and browsed "Papers Past" but can't confirm any marriages for them at all. ??? They certainly didn't make the papers like their younger brother did !!
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: senojekips on Sunday 14 June 09 09:09 BST (UK): Quote from: JustinL on Friday 01 May 09 10:58 BST (UK)
Loz,

The records are online in various Excel and PDF files. But I've already compiled them for you!

You've got a large family to research now.

Justin
Here are some of the known descendants of Lipman Levy and Hannah Jones (my 2X Gt Aunt)

And Hi! cousin Loz, from your 3C2R.

Spike.
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: senojekips on Sunday 14 June 09 18:34 BST (UK): Quote from: JustinL on Friday 01 May 09 11:04 BST (UK)
Loz,

Doing a google search for 'Lezer Blaz' brings up this site, that I was unable to view from my office PC.

http://www.geocities.com/senojekips/Jones/GGchartGC.htm

It's questionable whether Peschia Bloz is related to Eliezer Lezer Blez/Blaz.

Justin
Hi Justin,

Do you have any connection to Lezer Blaz/Blez as he was my 3xGt Grandfather.

Cheers,
Spike.
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Monday 15 June 09 11:17 BST (UK): Hi Spike!!

Thanks for the info on the Levy/Jones'. So you are a descendant on the Jones/Jonas side?

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: senojekips on Monday 15 June 09 11:36 BST (UK): Hello Loz,

Yes, I am a 2xGt Grandson of Solomon (Pinchas Zelig) Jonas, and have been researching the family for nearly 29 years.

I will PM you in case you would like any further info.

Cheers,
Spike.
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Wednesday 01 July 09 11:06 BST (UK): Hey Lu,
I ordered the probate package of Eliza HYDE (Edgar/Ernest's mother). She died on or about the 20th January, 1931. it helped confirm a couple of things. The first will was made 1901 (after her husband Charles had died). Edgar was to be left a book "Household Treasure" and that was all for him! Her personal property was to be split up between her daughters and the real estate just split to - 1 quarter to daughter Lizzie, 1 quarter to son Arthur (so this was Arthur George born 1873) and 1/2 to son Frederick. It appears Lizzie never married.

It appears the twin daughters born in 1872 were Bertha and Helen. The 1901 will gives Helen's husband as Edwin REAVES, none mentioned for Bertha. I can't seem to find a marriage, children or death for Helen or her husband though.

Another interesting thing is it mentions a daughter Mary Lees Excelsior (married to Robert BLEAKLEY. I looked up the BMD and Mary was registered in 1870. On the passenger list it had Harriet HYDE being born on the ship on the way over from England. Her birth date being 17th July, 1870. I think they Mary IS Harriet and they have registered her name different once in NZ. The Excelsior was the ship they came out on - I don't know where the LEES came from! There is no reference to Harriet (marriage or death) once in NZ.

Also - I think the Martha on the passenger list with the family might have been Charles sister, Martha - not DAUGHTER. The sister, Martha, was born in 1850, only 8 years before Charles and Eliza's first child. There is no birth or other record for a daughter Martha.

Thanks Lu for directing me to the Probates. It's not so hard when you know how to do it!!

Thanks again everyone for their contribution in untangling this family!

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 01 July 09 11:38 BST (UK): Hi again Loz

Yes, that was a great move you made, getting the probate file. Wonderful too that it contained so much information. :)

Just quickly ... (' cos I'll get back to you later when I've read through this) ...

Marriages

Ellen HYDE m. Edwin REEVE - 1895

Bertha HYDE - Edwin John ASTON - 1896
Bertha HYDE - Reginald McGRANE - 1908

Arthur HYDE - Helen Cathern ? (Catherine ??) CAVANAGH - 1895
Arthur HYDE - Katherine MOORE - 1901

[Zilch for an "Arthur George" : Take a look on "Archway" and see if there are probates for any of these in the Auckland area ... might just give a lead as to who married who ?]

I have a death for "Miss" Lizzie ... will dig it up for you.

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Wednesday 01 July 09 12:34 BST (UK): Hi Lu,

You are good! I only looked for "Helen" and did search for "REEVES" (rather than REAVES) but didn't drop the "S" !!

I'm thinking that 'my' Bertha must be the one in 1908 - as the will was written in 1901 and no "husband of", where the other daughters did.

Arthur was only referred to as "Arthur" in the will but on the birth was Arthur George.

The 1st codicil (dated 10/10/1912) of the will - says if Arthur died first, then his quarter to be shared between daughter Lizzie and daughter-in-law Elizabeth Jane (wife of Frederick).

Then the 3rd codicil (dated 03/10/1929) says if Lizzie predeceases her mother, then her share to be split between Fred and Arthur and if Fred or Arthur died their share to be left to whoever they had in their will.

This seems to indicate that Arthur wasn't married before the 1912 codicil but was before 1929 - do you think?

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 01 July 09 13:18 BST (UK): Hi Loz

Still haven't read through ya last post yet. :D

But will answer these ones first.

Quote from: lozzab on Wednesday 01 July 09 12:34 BST (UK)

I'm thinking that 'my' Bertha must be the one in 1908 - as the will was written in 1901 and no "husband of", where the other daughters did.
Yes, seems to make sense she might have married after 1901.

Arthur was only referred to as "Arthur" in the will but on the birth was Arthur George.
This second name "George" puzzles me somewhat ??
None of the others (apart from the newly found "Mary Lees Excelsior" ::) seem to have had second christian names. I'm sure I looked up this "Arthur George HYDE" birth, and it was registered in Christchurch ?? Will have to dig up my notes, and check.

The 1st codicil (dated 10/10/1912) of the will - says if Arthur died first, then his quarter to be shared between daughter Lizzie and daughter-in-law Elizabeth Jane (wife of Frederick).

Then the 3rd codicil (dated 03/10/1929) says if Lizzie predeceases her mother, then her share to be split between Fred and Arthur and if Fred or Arthur died their share to be left to whoever they had in their will.

This seems to indicate that Arthur wasn't married before the 1912 codicil but was before 1929 - do you think?
Yes, could be the case (especially as the will has mentioned the spouses of her other children. There's a 1924 marriage for "an Arthur HYDE"... will add it below. ~ Lu

Marriage

Sarah Mary HARLEY - Arthur HYDE - 1924 ???
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 01 July 09 14:38 BST (UK): Here's Lizzie ...

Lizzie HYDE - d. 1 October 1944 - aged 78 years

Buried : Hillborough Cemetery, Auckland
Area 11 - Block B - Lot 411

M/I reads :

"ILMO Lizzie HYDE died 1st October 1944"
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 01 July 09 14:49 BST (UK): AND ... your Bertha HYDE took a bit of finding ! :D

Marriage 1

Bertha HYDE - Reginald McGRANE - 1908

[Reginald McGRANE (there were several !) appears to have died in 1919 - aged 64 years (bc 1855) ]

Marriage 2

Bertha McGRANE - William HARRIS - 1926
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 01 July 09 15:01 BST (UK): Bertha HARRIS - d. 17 July 1966 - aged 94 years !

Burial : Hillsborough Cemetery, Auckland
Area 11 - Block B - Lot 409 (near to sister Lizzie)

M/I reads:

"ILMO Bertha HARRIS twin sister of Ellen REEVE died 17 July 1966 aged 95 years".

[Note: Age at death on MI, differs to official record.]

(No sign of husband William HARRIS in this cemetery).
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 01 July 09 15:05 BST (UK): Ellen REEVE (nee HYDE)

Ellen REEVE - d. 2 April 1957 - aged 85 years.

Buried : Hillsborough Cemetery, Auckland
Area 11 - Block B - Lot 407

M/I reads :

"ILMO our dear mother Ellen REEVE loved wife of the late Edwin, died 2 April 1957 aged 85 years".

(No sign of husband Edwin in this cemetery.)
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 02 July 09 00:29 BST (UK): Once again - Thanks Lu !! :D
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 02 July 09 03:43 BST (UK): Loz

re: Arthur George HYDE

Just confirming, the birth showing on the NZ index for above name, was registered at Christchurch in 1873.

Burial record at >>

http://librarydata.christchurch.org.nz/Cemeteries

Arthur George HYDE - died 16 November 1951 - 78 years (bc 1873) ... place of birth - Christchurch. :D

[So it appears that the birth of Arthur, son of Eliza and Charles ... and also the births of his twin sisters ... were not officially registered ?]

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 02 July 09 07:36 BST (UK): Oh ok. Thanks Lu. Wonder why they didn't register those 3?
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 02 July 09 08:22 BST (UK): Hmm ... I dunno ? (Perhaps the horse was in at the local garage, for an oil and grease ... and they didn't have transport to the registry office ???)

Seriously though ... there were probably many, many, reasons, not the least of which were just the general hardships, these early settlers faced. [I've got a family of 12 - West Coast, South Island ... only the 1st birth 1869 was officially registered !]

Of course we know that the twins had their births announced in the newspaper ... (I've got the same thing with my g-gran ... but there is no official record of her birth. :( ).

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 09 July 09 01:12 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Wednesday 01 July 09 11:06 BST (UK)

Also - I think the Martha on the passenger list with the family might have been Charles sister, Martha - not DAUGHTER.

Hi Loz

Right, I think I have now "nutted out" the confusion regarding Harriet HYDE and Martha HYDE as it relates to the passenger list of the "Excelsior" (arrived Auckland 1870). :D

Unfortunately, the only list available for the "Excelsior", seems to be that which was printed in the newspaper. This lumped all those with surname "HYDE" together, but as it gave no ages (or occupations) it is impossible to determine just what the "relationships" between those named HYDE, might have been.

Thankfully though, Eliza's will, means we now know who her children were ... and that she didn't have daughters named Harriet or Martha.

But we do have NZ marriage and death records for Martha and Harriet HYDE (though no apparent "voyage to NZ" details) ... and so your theory about this "Martha HYDE" aboard the "Excelsior", seems to be "spot on" Loz ! :)

But what of the "Harriet HYDE" on the "Excelsior" (1870) ???

continued next post >>
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 09 July 09 01:58 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Wednesday 01 July 09 11:06 BST (UK)

On the passenger list it had Harriet HYDE being born on the ship on the way over from England. Her birth date being 17th July, 1870.

Harriet HYDE - passenger to Auckland - "Excelsior" 1870 :

Aah ... now whomever transcribed this "Excelsior" passenger list
... or more importantly, whomever added the note to the list which appears online ... needs a firm smack on the hand !! :D

It has simply been assumed, that as Harriet HYDE was the last name appearing amongst the HYDE names listed, that this was the child born on the voyage ! AND that is INCORRECT !!

Passenger lists are compiled at the port of departure !
Any child born during a voyage, has his or her name (or more usually just a record of "a son/daughter born to Mrs ...") ADDED to the passenger list, at the port of arrival !.

So, the Harriet HYDE who is recorded on the "Excelsior" list, in all probability, is the sister of Martha and Charles HYDE.

(In general, the names appear on these UK to NZ passenger lists, as "Husband (or head of the family), wife ... and then children in descending order of age". Had details of "ages" been available (from the list) for all of those in this HYDE family, then it would have been much easier to have sorted this out ... earlier. :D )

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 09 July 09 02:12 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Wednesday 01 July 09 11:06 BST (UK)

Another interesting thing is it mentions a daughter Mary Lees Excelsior (married to Robert BLEAKLEY.

I looked up the BMD and Mary was registered in 1870. On the passenger list it had Harriet HYDE being born on the ship on the way over from England. Her birth date being 17th July, 1870. I think they Mary IS Harriet and they have registered her name different once in NZ.

The Excelsior was the ship they came out on - I don't know where the LEES came from!

Mary Lees Excelsior HYDE - born at sea - aboard the "Excelsior" - 17 July 1870 on its voyage to Auckland, NZ.

The commander (captain) of the vessel "Excelsior" ... was one, "James LEES" ... (seems he may have also have been the ships' surgeon ?) :

:)
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 09 July 09 02:36 BST (UK): :D ... and a quirky little twist ...

Elizabeth Jane LOGAN who married Frederick HYDE (1888),
is buried as "Elizabeth Jane Dauntless HYDE" ... she appears to have been one of the 17 children born on the voyage of the "Dauntless" which arrived Auckland 15 May 1865.
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 09 July 09 03:16 BST (UK): Lu,
That's excellent! thanks for sorting that out! (don't know what I'd do without you!)

I got Stewart Cameron's WW2 records in the mail today!

He is down as Stanley Stewart Cameron on his marriage certificate and War records - no mention of the Couldrey. My mother knew him as Stewart Couldrey Cameron (Uncle Stewart). It is definately him - the date of birth is correct and the War record lists his children - the names of which my mother had given me. I wonder if the Couldrey was 'dropped' once in Aust. to cover up Edgar/Ernest's name change or if Stewart did it later? (Guess I'll never know). His children are my mum's cousins - I'll have to ask her if she has contact details for them - maybe they can enlighten me?

I hadn't been able to find Stewart's death and mum said he just went missing. In his file is a letter from him asking for a copy of his records as his were destroyed in fire. The letter was written from a Queensland address - so maybe that's where he took off to? Another thing for me to follow up!

Oh I finally found Eliza Dorkes (married to Charles Hyde) family in the census in England. They were indexed under "Darks", "Dawkes" and "Dorks"!

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 09 July 09 04:45 BST (UK): Quote from: lozzab on Thursday 09 July 09 03:16 BST (UK)

I wonder if the Couldrey was 'dropped' once in Aust. to cover up Edgar/Ernest's name change or if Stewart did it later? (Guess I'll never know).

Hi Loz

Hmmm ... what year did "Stanley Stewart CAMERON" marry ?

It seems that if your Mum had known him as "Stewart Couldrey" ... then the name change must have come about just prior to his marriage (or enlistment) whichever came first ?

Interesting huh ? Wonder though, if he was actually known as "Stewart" (or "Stanley") in these later years ?
You did find his death eventually ... is that correct ?
Perhaps there is a death notice for him ... which may give a hint as to what christian name he was generally known by ?

You know, in all of this HYDE / CAMERON saga, it is Iris who gave the "very best" clue (by stating on her marriage cert. that her father was "Ernest HYDE Cameron"). :D But you'd have to wonder too, if (in later years), some of the other children or family members, got "wind of" Ernest's "hidden past". ??? :D

Glad you found the DORKS / Darks etc. etc. Great ! :)

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 17 July 09 13:11 BST (UK): Hi Loz :)

FASTEN YOUR SEAT BELT !!! FASTEN YOUR SEAT BELT !!! FASTEN YOUR SEAT BELT !!! FASTEN YOUR SEAT BELT !!!

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/

NZ TRUTH - 5 December 1908 - "HYDE'S HIDE"

::) [But look who else is implicated !] :o

AND ... if ever there was a "clincher" in all of this very involved saga, then this article IS IT !! :D

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 17 July 09 13:38 BST (UK): ---

THIS just sums up everything "nicely".

NZ TRUTH - 12 December 1908 - HYDE"S HIDE

THE SNIDE SCHEMES OF A LAND SHARK. :o

[No wonder I could never find Adela (Amelia) ! ] ;)

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 17 July 09 15:14 BST (UK): --- MORE !

NZ TRUTH - 11 July 1908 - Page 5 -

LAND SHARKS ! A PRECOCIOUS PAIR.
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 17 July 09 15:33 BST (UK): --- AMELIA (ADELA)

NZ FREE LANCE - 10 July 1909 - Page 9 Advertisements - Column 1

Even though this is dated July 1909, I still think that the "Mrs CAMERON and children on the "Moana" to Melbourne in June 1909" ... is Adela and the "kiddiewinks". [Probably "shot through" in a hurry ... leaving "unfinished business? ?]

There's another reference too which details some land she acquired.

Bay of Plenty Times - 7 August 1908 - "Tauranga City Council"

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Saturday 18 July 09 01:16 BST (UK): Lu !!!!

Blimey !!!! :o

Well there it is - confirmation that Edgar was Ernest!! So nice of the papers to print the details of his "private life" !!!! That is brilliant!!! (My grandfather, Jack, must rolling in his grave, right now!)

Thank you SO much for your on-going research into my g-grandfather's shady past!! (though I must say - there are still plenty of Real Estate agents nowdays - pushing similiar schemes!!)

I wonder how/under what name Edgar left New Zealand? He didn't appear to be on the ship with Adela and the children, not under 'Cameron' or "Hyde' anyway. I wonder what happened to all the land that Adela (Amelia) owned when they fled to Australia??

thanks again Lu !! :) :) :)
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lizcusack on Sunday 27 September 09 06:28 BST (UK): Hi,

Just been reading all these messages about Couldrey and Hyde and mentions of Arbon. Not quite sure which family you are researching but I have quite a bit on the Couldreys.

regards Lynne
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Monday 28 September 09 09:34 BST (UK): Hi Lynne,
Would be very interested to know what you have on the Couldrey's! Are you a descendant and if so - whom?

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lizcusack on Tuesday 29 September 09 14:18 BST (UK): I am a descendant of Thomas Couldrey & Mary Green. Thomas would have been born around 1715 and was a maltsman., probally in Abingdon UK. His son Thomas* married Martha Moore in 1769. Their son another Thomas married Lydia Tomkins in 1805. Their son William married Elizabeth Stopes in 1839. Then their son you guessed it another Thomas married Martha Stevens in 1879 in Maidenhead Berkshire UK. Their son Sydney born 1883 married Edith Mitchell who had a son called Thomas who was my Father.

The George Couldrey that first interested me in you postings, the one who married Maria Hyde was the son of William Couldrey whose father was Thomas Couldrey married to Martha Moore. And therefore the brother of Thomas*. The family tree was produced by members in England, Australia (where I come from), South Africa and New Zealand and Hong Kong. Are you a decendant? I don't understand the postings on Couldrey/ Stewart
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Thursday 01 October 09 02:13 BST (UK): Hi Lynne,
Yes it does get very confusing. George Couldrey married Maria Hyde, who was the sister of Thomas Hyde and Charles Hyde. Charles Hyde was my g-g-grandfather. he married Eliza Dorkes and they and some children emigrated to NZ in 1870. My great grandfather, I now know as Edgar Hyde was born in 1876 in Auckland, NZ. I am not a blood descendant of the Couldrey's - only by marriage. I knew my great grandfather as "Ernest Cameron" - but have now found out that that was not his real name and feld from NZ to Australia amidst scandal! Ernest/ Edgar kindly gave his youngest son the middle name of "Couldrey" (the surname of his Uncle George and cousins) - which helped us solve the mystery of who Ernest Cameron really was!

Was George and Thomas Couldrey, father William married to Sarah Stimpson?

Where in Australia are you? - I'm in Melbourne.
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lizcusack on Thursday 08 October 09 12:40 BST (UK): I have George Couldrey Born 4th Dec 1834, Married Maria Hyde 25th May 1863, His occupation was Mariner, and he died 26 July 1916.
His parents were William Couldrey and Sarah Stimpson. William was born 17 Jan 1785, Married 5 Nov 1826, Died 6 Jul 1846.

Williams parents were Thomas Couldrey and Martha Moore. ( I am decended from Williams Brother Thomas)

Thomas's parents were Thomas Couldrey and Mary Green..

I live in Melbourne also, good luck with the research.

Lynne
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 04 January 10 22:56 GMT (UK): EDGAR HYDE

Hi Loz

Don't know if this will be of any interest to you ? :D

Happened to be reading through some very old editions of the NZ Genealogist magazine the other day, and spotted this (from Nov/Dec 1992 ::) in the "reader's queries section".)

"EARLEY - Jane Ann Isobel - b. 1878 - New Plymouth - d/o Robert and Esther (nee MOYLE) - m. 1899 Edgar HYDE.
They had one son, Ivan m. Jean ? - Jane ? (2) Duncan RUSSELL, and lived in Sydney. Any info ? " :

[I'm not sure if the "(2) Duncan RUSSELL" is suggestive of a second marriage for Isobel ... or whether it relates to the w/o "Ivan" (Ivon) ? ]

I have the name/snail-mail address, for the lady who made the request (and according to latest telephone directory, is still at the same address). If you're interested, will send to you via PM.

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Tuesday 05 January 10 09:29 GMT (UK): Hi Lu,
That would be great if you could send me her details! I knew Ivon came to Australia at some stage but couldn't work out if Isobel did - I'll check the NSW indexes and see if I can find anything.

Hope you had a good Christmas - all the best for the New Year!

thanks again for all your help on this!

loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 05 January 10 23:47 GMT (UK): Hi Loz

Thanks ... and all the best to you for the New Year. :)

PM with address, coming your way.

Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: smandee on Saturday 14 August 10 10:54 BST (UK): Hi
I've just started on my husband's HYDE family. His g-grandfather is Arthur Hyde b abt 1874. Son of Charles and Eliza (DAWKES/DORKES) HYDE. Arthur married Elizabeth Annie ROBERTSON on 16 Nov 1910.
Would we be connected?
Smandee
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 14 August 10 11:19 BST (UK): Hi smandee

... and welcome. :)

I see that "Lozza" hasn't been online since early July, though I'm sure she'll soon see your message and send a reply.

And yes ... this is your husband's HYDE family and you'll find lots of information for them if you scroll back through this thread. :)

~ Lu
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: koren on Monday 11 October 10 06:43 BST (UK): :D
HELLLLOOOO!

My name is Koren Pickard. I am also searching my ancestry. I am the gg grand daughter of James Hyde - eldest son (or second eldest) or Charles and Eliza Hyde (Buckden). He settled in Wairoa and married a Maori lady and I descend from them.

He NEVER mentioned any family and the family grew up knowing nothing. I can not believe Eliza lived till 99 and was just around the corner from where I grew up in Auckland. We knew nothing!!!

I am so elated that you found the passenger lists.

Please contact me. I have lineage from Charles mothers side (Mary) back to the 1500's from a UK website. It is amazing! Still working on going into John's side (Charles father).

Please reply

This is soooo amazing!!!!
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: kiwihalfpint on Monday 11 October 10 06:48 BST (UK): Hi Koren,

Welcome to Rootschat.

I suggest you remove your email address ...its Rootschat policy not to have them on the board for security reasons.. You need at least two more posts before you can use the PM (Personal Message) system and can exchange email addresses that way.

Just reply back to this message with a couple of posts to enable you to use the system.

Cheers
KHP
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: koren on Wednesday 13 October 10 20:21 BST (UK): ???
Hi again.
I am slightly saddened after reading all of this thread. Not by anything you have said. But that back in the day something must have happened to my gg grandfather James Hyde, to be totally left out of his mum's will (the only child to be forgotten). The only thing I can think of is that it may be because he married my gg grandmother, a full blood maori? If only we knew!

According to his grand-daughter (my nana who turns 80 this year), he had NO family!
I have all of his line sussed though and its sad that there is so much info on the other siblings but not him.

Arther Hyde (the last son born) was originally on James' will until he moved from Wairoa to Wellington and had his own family. He signed over rights to be an executor. Why was he the only one on James' will. There were plenty of other siblings and Arthur was 12 years James junior! contd
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: koren on Wednesday 13 October 10 20:24 BST (UK): Also to 'swandee' i think it is - Arthur Hyde's great grandson's wife - I would love to know more about this side as there may be clues to James. Is your husband the son of Elizabeth Jean, Nola or Norman?

I am so excited after reading this thread fully, yet so saddened that my nana, who thought there were no other Hyde's could have met her great aunties and family! I have an aunty and cousins who are named Ellen after one of the twins, and it wasnt till reading this thread I was able to find the link to the name Ellen! James first daughter (my g grand mother) was named Ketia Eliza Hdye - after her grand-mother on the maori side, and Eliza Hyde (Charle's wife).

Oh the mystery. If anyone can help I would be greatly appreciative.
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: libran on Friday 15 October 10 22:58 BST (UK): Hello new cousins
I am a g.grandaughter of Thomas Hyde of Buckden. He was a younger brother of your Charles.
I would like to make contact with you people as I have a great deal of info on our family

Regards Libran
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: koren on Friday 15 October 10 23:19 BST (UK): :D
Hi
So are you one of the Clevedon bunch? I grew up in Papakura and we never made the connection. Thanks to James (Thomas's nephew) never mentioning ANY family. Please lets talk.

Koren
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: libran on Saturday 16 October 10 05:24 BST (UK): Hello Koran

Great to hear from you.
Thomas Hyde and his uncle Henry I have first found in Wairoa [ Ardmore area as is now] in 1854 with some land.

In May 1864 Henry married a widow Ann Cooper and returned to Buckden after disposing of his assets to Thomas.

As you know from shipping records Charles Hyde and his family arrived 1870 and with them came two younger sisters Martha and Harriet. They bath married in Clevedon. Another sister, Maria also came out here. She was married to a George Couldrey.

I could go on for pages but I think we are going to have to get together around a table with bits of paper etc and old photos.
Are you still in Papakura ? I would like to catch up with your family.

Regards,
Libran
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: koren on Saturday 16 October 10 07:10 BST (UK): Hi
Believe it or not my family live in Ardmore Heights. But I am in Wellington. However, I am moving back home after 9 years with my family and will be living in Papakura. My son is enrolled at Ardmore Primary to start in April 2011. I am the only one doing any research but am passing on all info to family concerned. I would love to catch up at some stage. I will be up there before xmas for a visit. Are we able to exchange emails?
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: smandee on Saturday 16 October 10 10:28 BST (UK): Hi,
My husband is descended from Arthur's son, Norman. I've only just started researching his family. I don't have a great deal at the moment. Just Arthur's d/c and m/c. THis post has given me clues to the English census, which is great.. I did see Eliza Hyde's obit on papers past. In reference to the original post here, it did mention her son E Hyde in Sydney. So I guess the family knew where he had taken off to.
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: koren on Sunday 17 October 10 01:45 BST (UK): Hi
I researched Arthur a bit because he was the only one on my gg grandfathers will. I am now trying to work out why he was disassociated with his family and not on his mum's will even though he was still alive at the time of her writing it. What I have of Arthur is who he married, his childrens names, who they married and where the burial plot is in Karori. Also, bits in pieces like home address in Brooklyn of Arthur and Elizabeth, where he died, paperspast has a bit on one sister Nola. Happy to share if you dont have this info. I have put anything I do have (except plot numbers) on my geni family tree. If you want to go on there search geni.com and become a member (its free). Search their names and it should pop up, then you will just need to invite me into your tree.
So I know the family were in Wellington. Where are they now? I live here so could meet up. I am fascinated with all of this and its sort of become a hobby.
Koren
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: lozzab on Saturday 29 December 12 03:18 GMT (UK): Hi everyone - Lozza here!

Sorry haven't been on for ages (dealing with a marriage break-up) and just got my family history out the last couple of days again. Just re-read messages on here.

Smandee, Koren & Libran - did you meet up? Any new discoveries? Would love to hear the latest!

Would still like to get to New Zealand one of these days but won't befor at least 2 years.

Hope everyone had a great Christmas and is enjoying a well-earned break,

Loz
Title: Re: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query
Post by: sarah on Tuesday 23 April 13 12:04 BST (UK): Hi Lozza,

Nice to see you back ;D

I have been unable to notify Koren of you new reply because as she said, she has moved house BUT she never told us of her new email address (it looks like she was using her old employers address)

Regards

Sarah

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