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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Mborrill on Wednesday 11 March 09 22:18 GMT (UK)
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Dear All
I was very fortunate at the weekend when a distant cousin emailed me about 50 labelled family photographs and carte de visite, However two of the Cdv which are labelled as John KENDALL had me wondering if they are the same person, or father and son, or another possibility is that of two brothers as John's sibling also ended up in Hull.
John was born 1815 died in 1875 in Hull
Tom Dennis son of John was born 1841 died 1881 in London
George was born 1826 died 1890 Hull.
I have done some background research on the photographers
James Walker is in the White’s 1882 Hull directory on Anlaby Road, but not in the 1892 Bulmer's Gazetteer
In 1861 he was living in Doncaster Occupation Photographer, he moves to Hull before the 1871 census Percy Street Sculcoates
James Walker 38 [1834] Artist & Photographer S. Norton Lincolnshire
Mary M Walker 35 [1836] Ranskill Notts
Martha Brooks 45
Another researcher has a photograph whose address and mount same as mine [dated Nov 1875}
By the 1881 census James is living in Reagent Street Hull
James Walker 47 [1834] Artist & Photographer South Reston Lincolnshire
Mary Millson Walker 45
Jane Goodwin 31 Assistant
James Walker 5 visitor
I can not locate James or Mary on the 1891 census moved away or died?
This image if John does look very much like that of know one of his brothers and their generation of dress and long beards and clean shaven around the mouth.
AL Henderson
Alexander Lamont Henderson traded as a photographer from 49 King William Street, London Bridge from 1860 to November 1887/88 and from 3 Amersham Road New Cross from 3 January 1873 to November 1887.
If the negatives are listed in numerical order then this photograph lies between the dates of C1870
A.L.Henderson, 49 King William Street, London Bridge. E.C. and at Amersham Road, New Cross [London]. No. 107473
See http://freepages.family.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~victorianphotographs/dated/dated.htm
And this one dated C1878 A.L.Henderson, 49 King William Street, London Bridge. E.C. and at Amersham No. 37459 (medals 1874, 1876) [schoolboy c. 1878]
See http://www.users.waitrose.com/~victorian/album/hendb.jpg
Photography catalogue http://erps.dmu.ac.uk/exhibitor_details.php?year=1904&efn=A.+L.+Henderson
It would suggest the London photo had to be taken in John’s last two years of life 1873-75, BUT he is much plumper and I think he looks younger on this too, so more support that it is Tom and not John and although father and son the ‘naming’ of the photograph has been become mixed up over time.
The photographs can be seen front/back and a younger known photograph of Tom at
http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/MBorrill/Kendall%20Brothers/
Where I have uploaded the photographs to this site. I wouldn't mind some thoughts and opinions as to my theory/research.
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not the same person... as far as I can see... different eyes and ears cant see the chin.. so not sure about that.
xin
afterlooking at the photobucket pic....the chap on the left ...is definately Tom (in my opinion)
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Thanks for your opinion and lining them up side by side it makes them much easier to compare.
Maria
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It appears that the nose and lips are different as well
Joy
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Hi Mborrill.
I can see you've worked really hard in trying to find out who these gentlemen are! :D
I personally don't think they are the same person - they have quite different features.
It's the outfits that are baffling me - the dates you have for the photographers, which I know you have researched very carefully, don't in my opinion seem to go with the styles of the outfits, which seem much earlier (I suppose we don't all keep up with fashions though) - but then I am a novice at all this.
Hoping someone, like OR, comes to our aid - I don't know of anyone better qualified on rootschat to help you with this one.
Kind regards,
Paulene :)
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The clothes style of the bearded gent suggests 1870's as does the 3/4 length pose.
The other looks earlier,possibly 1860's and maybe be a later reprint.
jim
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Hi, it might help a bit if we could see the corners of the photo mounts...hard to believe but even these can be a clue about the date :)
I'm thinking along the lines of Jim that the oval portrait is a reprint. Memorial photos were often made from an older negative after a person had died, so copies could be given to family and perhaps friends. This could be one of those...especially if the apparent date ties in with the known date of the subject's death.
Cheers,
China
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xinia did such a good job combining the two images can anyone add in the one of Tom Dennis KENDALL. I think he looks very much like the clean shaven gent [ with some slight differences] so father and son combo.
A little more on the KENDALL'S John's main occupation was a licensed victualler [who ran a couple of hansom's on the side] brother George was a hansom cabman all his life and Tom Dennis was a journalist.
I definitely know the bearded gent is a KENDALL but I also think the clean shaven gent is to as they share similarities with known photographs of KENDALL siblings. I will put a montage together to show you all
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Both CdV's are scanned in their entirety
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more to view angles...noses --- ears--- eyes ?!?!? etc
two gents on right definate similarities...
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in fact on closer inspection the eyes of the clean shaven gent and tom ...left eye is identical....
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Both CdV's are scanned in their entirety
Maybe they were scanned in their entirety, but the outer edges/corners have been cropped off as posted.
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Although there's not much detail the fact that in the 1st. photo the man has a
turned down collar would date this early 1860's at the earliest.
1st. & 2nd. photo are the same man 10-15 years apart in my view.
jim
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Thank you once again Xinia for this, being able to view the subjects side by side, does make it a whole lot easier to be able to compare the images.
These CdV's came from a distant cousin [a descendant of Joseph KENDALL] they were both labelled as John, but I did not think they were the same person. IF they were both John I would have said the clean shaven image would have been the younger man and the bearded one when he was older. As the clean shaven one was taken post 1873 [from the second premises listed] and John died in 1875 it does rule out this possibility.
Their are similarities between the known image of Tom and the London CdV are very apparent. I did know that Tom's lady love requested he shaved off his beard then she would accept his marriage proposal [Though the two did not marry an Tom was later sued for breach of promise.]
I am little uneasy as to the suggested date the photograph was taken and the London CdV is feint [seems a poorer image] so could this in fact be father and son and the London CdV a copy of an earlier image of John, perhaps as someone has suggested a memoriam.
So who could the Hull image be, if not John? This could make my 3rd option possible a photograph of brother George. I do know that the sibling Joseph was closest to was his brother George who lived in Hull in 1890. I do think both are KENDALL'S the images below are of known siblings many of whom inherited their mothers long faces and dark eyes,
The Hull CdV has slightly rounded corners where as the London CdV corners are square.
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Square corners, pre-1875 or so, rounded corners thereafter until about 1900.
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Thanks for all the wonderful responses; I just want to surmise the comments so far
The London CdV [clean shaven] with squared corners dates it around 1872-1879 [period of introduction of rounded corners] and H.L. Henderson premises at Amersham Road were from 1873. I am assuming the negative numbers are sequential so CdV produced before 1878. So this places the card between the dates 1873-1878. Though many think this is a reprint of an earlier card [from style of clothing etc] so could fit as a memoriam to John who died in 1875 made by his son Tom in London [and hence the likeness between the two]
Where as the Hull CdV [Bearded] with rounded corners dates from around the transition period 1872-1879 [or just after] this fits in with the photographer dates. James Walker moved to Hull after 1865 and disappears before the 1891 census. Most agree that the two CdV are not of the same person. But as the bearded gent has similar characteristics to the known KENDALL siblings and George [as well as John] lived in Hull and died in 1890, he could well be the subject in the Hull CdV.
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My husband inherited photographs from his family who originated in England. I have an original photo the exact same one of the man in the second photo. His family surname is Cresswell. There is no name on the photo. On the back is James Walker Anlaby Road (opposite Hengler's Cirque) Hull. William Cresswell born-abt. 1807 came to the US around 1842 to Waterford, Saratoga, New York, then ended up in Saginaw, Michigan. I always assumed the photo was of a Cresswell family member, perhaps Williams father.
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Hi Becky
What area of England did your husband ancestors come from, do you know what trade he had?
The 2nd photo we believe is George KENDALL, he was in North Lincolnshire till 1848 then after this date he moved to Hull.
Maria
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The family story is that William born abt 1807 was born in Manchester, Eng and left for the US to avoid imprisonment. I have found criminal records, which maybe this William and list a conviction in June of 1841 with a 6 months prison term. The trial was in Staffordshire.
I have never found any passage/immigration records for him to the US. The first real documentation I have is a 1841 Census from Wolverhampton, Staffordshire. His occupation is listed as "Smith" (blacksmith). He was 30 years old and with his wife and three children. The family story was that he went to the US and his wife followed later. I do have passenger records of her immigrating to the US in 1844.
Could you tell me more about the Kendall family?
Thanks
Becky
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Hi
Ahh Blacksmith could be a link to George KENDALL as he was a coachman in Hull.
You can read about my KENDALL ancestors here
http://free.yudu.com/item/details/201544/Kendall-Family-of-Ashby-Lincolnshire
Maria