RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: Humphpaul on Monday 09 March 09 17:52 GMT (UK)
-
My gg.grandad Peter Williams was born in Nercwys P.R.s 10/02/1802 to John and Eliz. his wife. I cannot find their marriage there or in surrounding parishes.
I know there was a John Williams the curate at the time who had come from Northop but I can't find if this was Peter's father. Peter was an ag.lab and gardener in Mold later so I don't think he came from a clerical family. But I could be wrong.
I have seen the local history book about Nercwys but not got any clues from there.
Has anyone any suggestions please. Alan Williams
-
I have a Ellen/Eleanor Williams born 1794 in Nercwys daughter of John Williams and Elizabeth. Ellen/Eleanor married William Maddocks in Chester in 1823. I have all her details and I think she was the eldest child. I am going to check a marriage of John Williams and Elizabeth in 1791 in Nercwys. If you are still interested will keep you posted. Eileen
-
Dear Eileen. Thanks for your message. Yes I am still very interested but have not made any progress with fixing a marriage for John and Elizabeth.
There are years of parish entries missing for Nercwys between 1780 and 1801 and a note was made that many had been deleted by Rev Mason due to mental problems and there is also a note that he was either drunk or out of his mind for a month in 1788.
The new curate in 1801 was John Williams who came from Northop but I cannot find his wifes name and it is unlikely he is my line as his son was a labourer. But he may be yours.
In 1851 Gwernaffield census are a John and Elizabeth Williams aged 75 and 76 who were born around Betws Gwerfilgoch toward Corwen. He was an ag. lab so may be mine.
On 26/01/1793 in Mold a John W married an Elizabeth Griffiths and his signature looks very like that of the JW who became curate in 1801. Well best of luck with your search and I would like to know if you get any results
Regards Alan Williams
-
Hello Alan, I don't think that mine of this history was a cleric either, Ellen couldn't write. Ellen baptised Eleanor in Nercwys 1794 with parents John & Elizabeth, she married William Maddocks in 1823 at St Mary's on the Hill Handbridge Chester. William Maddocks was also an Ag Lab from Gresford. There are no census records for the Hope/Gresford/Nercwys for 1841 either which doesn't help either. I think John Williams was born in Nercwys 1768 and married in 1791, I also think there are other children, a John and Elizabeth maybe which would slot between Ellen and Peter nicely. I don't subscribe to Ancestry or Find my past as both are available as Library editions. I have a few dates I want to check hopefully I will get there tomorrow. Will keep you posted who knows we might even be on the same branch. I am researching for my partner Dave. Eileen
-
There is a record for the curate John Williams BA at:- http://www.theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/search/index.jsp
(use appropriate search terms)
This gives his death as 1818,and although the precise dates do not match there is a burial record for Rev John Williams(1745-1818) at Nerquis.Perhaps the date in the clerical record is really the appointment of his successor.
Regards
Roger
-
There is also a will for a John Williams,clerk,Nercwys 1818 at:-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0qca/
This,I think gives a death date of 21st August,and the burial record(previous post) is 28th August,
The will also gives his wife as Mary,and two sons as Thomas Venables and Watkin.
Regards
Roger
-
Well after a morning in the local library I have come away with several bits of information.
Eleanor/Ellen Williams baptised Nercwys 05.10.1794 daughter of John & Elizabeth.
I have got a copy of the Parish Register for a John son of John & Ann Williams of this Parish aged 25 to Elizabeth aged 23 daughter of John & Elizabeth Roberts on the 01.12.1794 at Nannerch. John Williams signed Elizabeth Roberts made her x witnesses were R Downing and Lydia Owens both signed.(Looks like some handfasting took place as Eleanor was born prior to their marriage)
I think there is possibly at least two more children in between Eleanor possibly a John there are two possibles one in 1795 and one 1799 both in Nercwys also an Elizabeth in 1795 in Nercwys (not checked for parents names yet.) and Peter in 1802.
I have also found a burial of John Williams in Nercwys 17.09.1822 aged 55
This is as far as I have got at the moment
Eileen
-
Dear Eileen, Brilliant, you have certainly made good progress. I have never looked at Nannerch as via Peter there was no connection.
It will be good if all the children can be tied to this John and Elizabeth and we would be distant cousins.
I have the monumental index for Nercwys but cannot find a stone for the 1822 burial but there may not have been one or it has been lost.
One thing cleared up thanks to the will given by "despair" - there is no connection with the curate.
So that question which has been bothering me for years is sorted.
I am on Ancestry and will try to find any of the children you mention in the 1851 census. Let me know if I can look up any other bits to help. Bye for now Alan
-
Dear Despair, Many thanks for both your replies. The will totally clears away any chance John was my family. Why didn't I think of a will?
Thomas Venebles and Watkin are in the Northop register and the original entries have wife as Elizabeth but both have been crossed out and Mary or Mary Ann substituted and there is a note that the wifes name was changed by order of Rev, John Williams of Nerquis.
So that name Mary fits with the will but I wonder where the original Elizabeth came from. Still, that is not my problem now. I can get rid of a lot of old notes etc. Thanks again, all the best. Alan
-
Hello Alan
I looked these up on Find my Past which is working with Ancestry and both additions are in the local libraries.
I thought I had found John's parents at the same church but the John baptised 16.02.1768 was the son of William and Ann address given as Nercwys.
Also on the same page in the parish register of the one I am sure is ours was a John aged 25 son of Thomas and Elizabeth who married Anne age 24 daughter of Thomas and Martha Amos 20.12.1794.
I struggle with the area but I checked Nannerch to Nercwys and it's about 10 miles but as it was all farmland so over fields I don't suppose it's that far.
I did see another John Williams it said Widower and he married a Mary around the same time but didn't make notes as I didn't think it was relevant.
I think there were quite a few Williams's in Nannerch. What we need to find now is John Williams born circa 1769 with parents John and Ann and Elizabeth Roberts born circa 1771 Nannerch daughter of John & Elizabeth. He might have been born elsewhere as they normally married in the female's parish.
With regards to Eleanor/Ellen she was baptised at Nercwys 05.10.1794 parents John & Elizabeth. They won't be on the 1851 census well Ellen won't she married in 1823 at St Mary's on the Hill Handbridge Chester to William Maddocks who was from Gresford. I have her census for them and have found she had 8 children who are all accounted for.
I'll keep searching and see what we can come up with between us. I think Despair did us a favour as we can disguard the cleric.
Eileen
-
Hello Eileen, Well done with all that searching. It gets very complicated with all the Williams's doesn't it.
My Peter 1802 lived in Milford St, Mold till he died. He was at No.82 in 1871 and in 1881 after he died there was a Mary Maddocks age 59, born Mold and it is The Harwarden puplic house.
My g.g.grandad John W 1836 married Anne Parry from Higher Kinnerton so I have done a lot in that area. In the 1841 Higher Kinnerton is a Thomas Maddocks age 40, shoemaker with wife Alice and 4 children. and Robert Maddocks 28 and wife Ann and 3 ch. Then in 1841 Dodleston is a John Maddocks age 13 farm servant.
I expect you have all these but it occurred to me that your Ellen could have been the link that got my John in contact with Ann Parry. You see Robert Maddocks lived at Babylon which is close to Kinnerton Hall and just around the corner from Bramley Lane where my Parrys were. Then again as Thomas M was a shoemaker he would have known lots of people about there. Or am I getting over fanciful? Yes!
Anyway all the best with your searches and please let me know if I can help. I live in Conwy now but am originally from Liverpool. Cheers Alan
-
Hello Alan,
The Maddocks of the research I am doing stems from Jane Maddocks who was born in Stockport 1860 and married a William Ferriday who originated in Priors Lee Shropshire.
Her father was James Maddocks who married a Hannah Leah at Stockport in 1858 when he was 25. I have all the census except 1 for James and that is the 1841 census for Hope were James was born. The records for this area were destroyed after the information was taken off it. Thanks to Roots Chat I found him on the 1851 census in Higher Kinnerton as a farm servant aged 19.
James was the 4th child of William Maddocks (Gresford 1798) and Ellen/Elleonor Williams 1794 Nercwys who married 1823 ST Mary's on the Hill Handbridge Chester.
The rest of the children were John Maddocks 31.10.1825, William 15.11.1827 at Gresford, Thomas 1830, James 1832, Twins Margaret & Elizabeth 15.02.1835 Hope, Phebe 1839, Ellen/Elleonor 1843 both also born in Hope.
John Maddocks had a child Thomas born in Darland & baptised at Gresford 03.05.1847 with Lucy Parsonage and were living in Liverpool according to the parish register. I have been unable to find a marriage of the couple.
William I haven't proved yet but may have gone in the police. I have found a census for 1851 stating he was living in Toxteth Park Livepool and was a police officer. I have been in touch with the police museum who say a William Maddocks born in Wrexham 1826 served 4 years with Wrexham Police and 4 years with Flintshire both these records will be in Clwyd County Records Office. He also did 18 months with Lancashire presumably with Liverpool before joining Cheshire 04.01.1861 resigning 04.01.1868. He is not on the Cheshire records of the police as being married so if he did it was after that? The Census return for 1861 shows he was resident in Prices Lane, Woodchurch, Oxton. Then I haven't been able to locate any others or find a marriage or a death.
Thomas married at St Mary's on the Hill 31.01.1851 to Jane Huxley aged 21.
James married in Stockport (complete)
The twins Elizabeth & Margaret, Elizabeth married John Powell who was born in Hope but living in Higher Kinnerton at St Mary's on the Hill and died in childbirth. Her sister Margaret then married John Powell again at St Mary's on the Hill and is on all the census.
Phebe also born in Hope married a William Dodd from Barrow Chester at St Mary's.
Ellen/Elleonor didn't marry but had a son William Henry baptised at St Mary's and died when he was about 2.
Ellen Maddocks nee Williams died June quarter 1859. William remarried at St Michael's Chester and was living in Pepper Street son of John Labourer. He died in Chester 1886 age 87.
John Maddocks was born circa 1770 and married at Gresford to a Margaret Jones (1764) 28.12.1792 and died in 1853 and is buried at Gresford. I have been fortunate as John Maddocks signed his sons marriage certificate, his own and his will and all signatures match.
This is the Maddocks and Williams I have to date.
Eileen
-
Alan,
Have you looked at the Clwyd name site? Lots of Parry's etc on there.
http://freespace.virgin.net/jill.farndon25/M.html
Eileen
-
Dear Eileen, thanks for that. Yes I do use that site. With my Parrys, info has been fairly easy to get as they all stayed in the same area for over a century and are quite well documented.
Some problems came up because parts of Higher Kinnerton have been in Dodleston, Cheshire and then Hope, Flintshire but I think I am sorted now. There are 3 or 4 other people doing the family because they come from the same lot and those people have lots of info which I didn't.
One thing I noticed in the Nercwys record is a John Williams son of John who died age 2 on 30/04/1802 and buried 2/05/1802 but there is no mother's name so could be no connection.
Bye for now Alan
-
Hello Alan,
I have just read your postings again and the burial of John Williams son of John who died age 2 on 30/04/1802 and buried 2/05/1802 but there is no mother's name so could be no connection. This is quite normal as women were not allowed to attend funerals. If the John Williams born in Nercwys in 1799 gives parents as John & Elizabeth Williams you could be on the right track.
There were two possible John Williams born in Nercwys one in 1795 and one 1799.
Also an Elizabeth in 1795 which would give us a family with Peter in 1802. I am going on holiday soon and will be away for about 6 weeks so I don't know if I will have time to do it before I go.
Will keep you posted.
Eileen
-
Dear Eileen. Just in case you are not yet on hols.here are some bits I got in Mold library yesterday. I was looking at the parish reg. indexes for Nercwys and Nannerch and got the following:-
Bap. 5/10/1794 Eleanor Williams to John and Elizabeth - does seem to be the eldest.
22/12/1796 Thomas ditto
8/09/1799 John " and his burial 2/05/1802
24/02/1802 Peter my g.g.grandad
16/02/1768 Twin sons John and Edward to William and Anne Williams
Then 23/09/1794 Edward Williams wed Elizabeth Roberts both of Nercwys
and 27/12/1786 " " " Mary Jones "
Then in Nannerch baps. is 23/06/1771 is Elizabeth Roberts dau. of Robert and Dorothy and no others I could find.
I could not find a marr. for John and Elizabeth in either parish but it could have been in the period when records were lost by Rev. Mason.
In Nercwys are 8 girls born to Edward Williams and Elizabeth between 1795 and 1809 and one was Elizabeth 8/03/1775 who may have been the one who you thought was Johns.
That Elizabeth is in the 1851 census with a nephew named Roberts. Anyway we have a lot more cousins than we thought.
Bye for now, have a good holiday, regards Alan
-
Hello Alan
Thanks for the info and it does look like we are on the same branch.
The page of the marriage I have is page 97 entry 385 and the year 1794 I was told that FindMyPast sometimes gets mixed up. It wasn't on the Hope register. so presumably it is Nannerch. I have given you the page etc so if you go into Mold again you could perhaps check it.
The copy of the Parish Register is for a John son of John & Ann Williams of this Parish aged 25 to Elizabeth aged 23 daughter of John & Elizabeth Roberts on the 01.12.1794 at Nannerch. John Williams signed Elizabeth Roberts made her x witnesses were R Downing and Lydia Owens both signed
Therefore we are now looking for in the Nercwys/Hope/Nannerch area.
1. John Williams born 1769 parents John and Ann Williams.
2. Elizabeth Roberts born 1771 parents John & Elizabeth Roberts.
3. John Williams marriage to Ann prior to 1769
4. John Roberts marriage to Elizabeth prior to 1771
We are away now but we are online.
Eileen
-
Hello again Eileen, Following your example I have now found I can get Find my Past at the library.
I have the baptism for John and Edward (twins) to John Williams and Anne at Nercwys 16/02/1768.
I have done a search for J.W. marr. to Anne ?? in the 10 yrs. before 1769 but nor got anything likely.
That P.97 No.385 is Nannerch and everything fits except that John is down as of this parish i.e.Nannerch whereas he was actually Nercwys. But I don't think that matters as it could have been an error.
I will get back to the library as soon as poss. to check the other bits. All the best Alan
-
Hello Alan
Thanks for the info, can you clarify one point for me?
In an earlier posting you said that the twin sons born 16/02/1768 John and Edward were the children of William and Anne Williams and not John & Ann Williams
The only reason I am querying it is that I picked up a marriage at Nannerch for a William and Ann in error as I was looking for John and Ann Williams and got carried away thought I had found John and Ann. Can't remember the details at the moment has I am not at home with my files.
Eileen
-
Dear Eileendavid. I hope your holiday went well. I have spent a good few hours in the library on FindMyPast but have only gone round in circles without any solid reliable facts, only more fuzzy trails.
In reply to your last post:- The twins born 1768 were to WILLIAM and Anne not John so cannot tie with the marriage in 1794. Sorry, my silly mistake.
Looking at the entry in Nannerch 1794 page 79 No.385 more closely I wonder is the brides mother actually called Catherine because I think it could be " John & Cath..... Roberts" or something like that. But even so I cannot find a marriage to match that name.
Regarding marriages of William Williams to an Anne all I found are:-
One in 2/06/1778 to Ann Price and one in 27.09.1783 to Anne Parry. but neither seems much help to us.
So I am up against the brickwall until I get a flash of inspiration. But perhaps you can think of something. Bye for now, Alan
-
Hello Alan
Thanks for the message we are still away at the moment but will be home soon when I will see if I can find anything (two heads better than one maybe).
As I said I also got carried away with William and Ann and John & Ann. I have written quite a few notes but they are at home.
Will be in touch soon Eileen
-
Perhaps the record you found was:-
Feb 21 1759 William Williams(Llanferres) to Anne Lloyd(presumably otp) at Nannerch
The record can be seen in the marriage bonds at National Library of Wales:-
http://isys.llgc.org.uk/isysquery/irl1af/11/doc
(always a useful addition to parish register searches)
Regards
Roger
-
Hello Roger
It was William Williams to Anne Lloyd at Nannerch. The one we are trying to find however is a marriage John Williams to Ann and a baptism of their son John Williams 1769 ish.
Any help would be appreciated
Eileen
-
Hello again,
Well I have just spent another couple of hours in the library looking to progress on the Williams/Roberts front, but not being au fait with the area and not able to get my head round it don't know if I am on the right track.
Information found on the marriage certificate of John Williams was he's the son of John Williams and Ann. He married Elizabeth Roberts daughter of John & Beth at Nannerch 01.12.1794
I have only managed to locate two marriages one was John Roberts to Elizabeth Hughes at Llansaffraid Gly Ceiriog Denbyshire 12.06.1770, and John Roberts of Llansaiph to Elizabeth Reydon 24.04.1771 at Whitford. Anyone able to advise of which would be the correct one in locality to Nannerch. Not been able to locate a birth for Elizabeth around 1771
I have also located a John Williams son of John at Gresford 1.7.1764 giving abode as Gueswyllt is this near Nercwys.
Any assistance would be appreciated
Eileen
-
Hello again
More research on the John Williams marriage to Elizabeth Roberts at Nannerch 01.12.1794. John's age is given as 25 (circa 1769) parents John Williams and Ann and Elizabeth age 23 (circa 1771) parents John Roberts & Beth. In the presence of Ruth Dowling & Lydia Owens.
This is what I have come up with and need help to justify I am on the right track.
1. John Williams baptised 07.01.1770 Hamner Flint son of John Williams & Ann.
2. John Williams to Ann Griffiths 13.12.1768 at Mold
Mold is only 2.7 Miles from Nerquis, I know Hamner is about 7miles but the only other one I found was at Gresford 1769. I also found a marriage at Gresford for a John Williams to Ann Barrow 27.08.1768.
3. Elizabeth Roberts baptised at Nannerch 23.06.1771 daughter of John Roberts & Elizabeth
4. John Roberts to Elizabeth Bagnol 14.09.1768 Cilcain (there was also a couple of marriages at Whitford.
Cilcain is 3 miles from Nannerch Whitford is 8.
5. Elise Bagnall 24.05.1748 Nannerch
6. John Roberts 06.11.1742 Nannerch
Can anyone check these out for me to see if I am on the right branch.
Eileen
-
This is Nannerch on a map;
http://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=MMREDR#JnE9Lk5hbm5lcmNoJTdlc3N0LjAlN2VwZy4xJmJiPTU2Ljg2MDI0NDU2MDA2MzglN2U4Ljg2MTc5MTM3MzI0OTk5JTdlNDkuODA4NzU2NjEyMzI1NCU3ZS0xMy4zMzA1OTE0MzkyNQ==
If you zoom out you should be able to find all the places you mention in your posts.Glyn Ceiriog is about twenty miles or so from Nannerch.Gresford(Gwersyllt) is about 10-15 miles from Nannerch.Hanmer is about twenty miles or so from Nannerch,though it is given as being in Flintshire historically,it was in a detached part of the county just to the east of Wrexham.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
-
Hello William,
Thanks for getting back.
The reason I put Hanmer was because John Williams was the father of our ancestor Ellen Williams who was baptised at Necwys so my reasoning was that although Ellen's parents married at Nannerch which was the brides parish and that the Williams I think were from Necwys. Also I think that Ellen was born 2 months prior to marriage so could be another reason they chose a different parish. Eileen
-
Hello Alan
Just had another look at the marriage of John Williams to Ann Griffiths at Mold and he didn't sign his name he made his mark so it isn't the cleric. I also checked the clerics will. Mold is the nearest marriage I have found to Nercwys only 2.6 miles. Plus didn't you say your grandfather lived in Mold.
Look forward to hearing from you with your views on this.
Eileen
-
Hi Eileen
I was particularly interested in the follwing paragraph in one of your replies
"The twins Elizabeth & Margaret, Elizabeth married John Powell who was born in Hope but living in Higher Kinnerton at St Mary's on the Hill and died in childbirth. Her sister Margaret then married John Powell again at St Mary's on the Hill and is on all the census"
I believe John Powell may be my 2nd Great Grand Uncle - my records suggest he had children Mary, Elizabeth and Martha - can your researches confirm this and if so who the mother of each was?
MTIA
DAve
-
Hello Dave
I have the details of Margaret & Elizabeth both were baptised at Hope and both married John Powell
Elizabeth had a daughter Elizabeth and a son James. Elizabeth was baptised on the same day as John and Elizabeth married. Elizabeth the mother died shortly after giving birth to James, and James died in infancy. John Powell became Sexton of St Mary's at Handbridge and on his death was buried there
I have more details but unfortunately I am out of the UK at the moment and won't be back for about 8 weeks.
We are related through James Maddocks 1832 Hope who was Margaret & Elizabeth's older brother. He was one of eleven children at the last count. As I say have dates etc but they are in the UK Eileen