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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: petercr49 on Saturday 07 March 09 21:46 GMT (UK)
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I understand this photo to be about 1858-60 when Isaac was aged about 25? Does that sound about right?
Also, do his clothes give any clue to the occasion or his status?
many thanks
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Hello Peter
It isn't 1858.Possibly 1890's on.If you have the original can you show the whole card plus back as this gives us important dating clues.
jim
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Hi, thanks for the quick reply.
Isaac died in 1890 aged 57 and I think he looks younger than that on this photo but he probably looks older than the 25 I was told (but people did age quicker in those days, didn't they?). I don't have original photo but I'll try to contact the relative that has it.
regards
Peter
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I agree with Jim - much later than 1860, just going by the pose and the card. If we can get more info from the card we should be able to pin it down a bit closer for you :)
By the way, I think he looks more in his 40s than his 20s :) The fur coat is interesting, and what's he holding? Would like to see that in more detail if possible :)
Cheers
Prue :)
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thanks Prue.
I've no idea what he is holding other than it looks like a piece of paper. Enlarged detail attached but I'm not sure it helps. Isaac was a bookseller/newsagent in Newcastle. What is that thing coming down from his neck? is it some kind of fastening? Would this be his "best outfit"?
regards
Peter
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It probably would have been his best outfit, most people wore their best gear when being photographed.
I can't make out exactly what it is he's holding...I guess being a bookseller it could be a book or leaflet or something else related to the trade.
Likewise, I can't work out what the 'thing' is around his neck, it kind of looks like a chain but I doubt whether it is that...it's an intriguing photo, for sure!
Prue
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The thing round his neck looks like a tie tucked into his shirt, along with the card stock this led me to the 1890's date.
jim
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I would say this is a man in his 20's/30's, no older. Certainly not anywhere near 57.
Not sure why he would be photographed in such a big coat - the whole image makes me think of Russia!
Are you sure it is your Isaac?
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Hi Jim, Prue, Igor, etc
It is definitely my Isaac as the original was held by my Fathers cousin, passed down from his Mother. I can see that he looks like one of those old Russian photos, but I'm pretty sure he was born in Ayrshire, Scotland. His Father Robert Crothers was born in South Carolina to British Parents. It has been suggested by family that Isaac was a Quaker but I have never found any proof.
As I said, the original photo was owned by my Fathers cousin but he died over a year ago and I assume his son has the photo. He hasn't responded to Christmas cards or other communications so it may take a while to contact him. I will post details of the reverse as soon as I can (if I can!).
To me, the thing round his neck looks something like woven string!
thanks for all your suggestions.
regards
Peter
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Ok lets assume the original isn't going to appear and take what we can from this.
His hairstyle & beard would fit with an 1860's date as would this heavy probably 3/4
overcoat.Turned down collars became fashionable 1860's but were worn with a cravat as ties didn't become mainstream until late 1880's and for best/formal wear shirts were always white.So a workmans shirt with something round his neck that isn't a cravat or tie.
The half length pose isn't 1860's as lenses weren't advanced enough and would result in blurring of the image but his hand in the foreground does show this.
The card stock I would say is at least 1880's.
Only explanation is an 1880's/90's reprint of an 1860's early 1870's photo.
jim
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Thanks Jim, that sounds very credible.
I'm green when it comes to old photo's, what does it mean "card stock"? Does it mean the format/type of card?
As I said previously, Isaac died 6 Oct 1890. I wonder if his widow, Isabella Cheesebrough Crowther, ordered a reprint of an earlier photo after his death? If there was an original of, say, late 1850/early 1860 as you suggest, what condition would you expect the original to be in after about 30 years between 1860 and 1890? Maybe Isabella just wanted a good copy of the old photo. Or would the original photographer keep the original negative and just do a reprint on new "card stock"?
I haven't given up on the original yet, but it won't appear quickly.
regards
Peter
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Jim, you are quite possibly right with your suggestion of a reprint - I was thinking that last night as I tried to get off to sleep (yes, sad - I know!!). The framing/cropping of the photo and general blurriness hint at a reprint.
Peter, it's most likely that a reprint was made by photographing the original photo, making a new negative, and printing from that.
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There you have it Peter,our expert has spoken.
The earliest this can be is 1860's and it's quite possible this was
a commemorative reprint.
The card stock is as you say,the style of the card itself which changed
over the decades and is a good dating tool.Take a look
http://www.cartes.freeuk.com/time/time.htm
jim
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Thanks both Jim and Prue. Sorry to have kept you awake at night!
regards
Peter
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I think this photo is just screaming "reprint"! :D
The quality of the photo itself doesn't line up with a 90s date at all. If that picture was taken by a professional photographer in 1890 or so, he ought to be strung up :P
We know it was common to have reprints of earlier photos taken for distribution to family members after the death of the subject...memorial photos. The date of Isaac's death would be perfect...
Cheers,
China
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I'm still interested in what it is he is holding.
Do you think it is a photograph?
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I think it's a letter,we've seen a few like this before.You can just make out the seal,
this was pre envelope days.You can imagine loved ones asking for a photo in return
if the receiver is away from the family.
jim
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Hi, It could be anything as it is quite blurred. The round shape visible could be some sort of Seal and he appears to be holding it between his index and middle fingers.
However, if the original photo could have been as early as 1858 then I had hoped that it might have something to do with the death of Isaac's Mother. Attached is a copy of a eulogy from Isaac on the death of his Mother 27 Sept 1858 and I wondered if it might be a copy of that eulogy at the time of her death. Do Isaac's clothes indicate mourning or did they wear clothes like that at any time?
regards
Peter
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Quick tidy before bed
Dave ;)
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Attachment of Isaac's eulogy didn't appear to go on, I will try again
regards
Peter
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I have discovered that another elderly descendent of Isaac (different to the source of my photograph) has an original of this same photograph and written on the back of it is 1862. This seems to fit with the deduction above of an 1860's photo reprinted in 1890.
regards
Peter
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Just to add my tuppence worth - the first thing I thought when seeing this was, 'this does not look like it was taken in the UK' and 'is this gentleman of Eastern European origin', and I see that Igor was thinking along the same lines.
The heavy coat, dark shirt and neckwear just seem unusual ... as does the pose of the sitter, staring directly into the camera.
Did Isaac ever live anywhere other than the UK?
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As far as I know, Isaac never left this country but I have copies of correspondence written to him 1859 from Garibaldi, Louis Blanc and Victor Hugo discussing Mazzini and Lajos Kossuth, revolutionary leaders in Italy and Hungary, respectively. Maybe someone gave him a coat? I have been going through my information again and the obvious has struck me. If the original photo was taken 1862 (as written on the back of this second copy), that was the year that Isaac's father, Robert Crowther, died. Could this be a photo of Isaac in mourning outfit?
regards
Peter Crowther
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As far as I know, Isaac never left this country but I have copies of correspondence written to him 1859 from Garibaldi, Louis Blanc and Victor Hugo discussing Mazzini and Lajos Kossuth, revolutionary leaders in Italy and Hungary, respectively. Maybe someone gave him a coat? I have been going through my information again and the obvious has struck me. If the original photo was taken 1862 (as written on the back of this second copy), that was the year that Isaac's father, Robert Crowther, died. Could this be a photo of Isaac in mourning outfit?
regards
Peter Crowther
:o. Isaac kept some very interesting company. How did he come to know these people? It does make me wonder if he did leave the country and met them up with them at some stage.
I'll leave it to the experts to comment on whether or not this might be a mourning outfit. The whole photograph just has an unusual 'feel' about it. ;)
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I'm not saying Isaac actually knew these people, I think he wrote to them on behalf of a Newcastle political committee in relation to political issues and they replied.
regards
Peter Crowther
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There is an interesting ghost story about this photographer (Dickinson of Newcastle) http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/3238/double_exposure.html
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... Garibaldi ... Mazzini ...
A second cousin of mine says there is a family legend that her ancestors in Birmingham (gunmaking industry) were visited by these people at some point. Certainly various males in her family since then have borne the middle name Mazzini (including a grandchild born last year).
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Fascinating to read about Dickinson the photographer and the ghost. Without wanting to divert from the original theme of my quest to find out about the photo of Isaac Crowther, as an aside it may be of interest to note that the ghost of Isaac's nephew Robert Sadler Crowther (Bob) haunts the Tyne Theatre in Newcastle after he was killed by a falling sound effect cannonball.
regards
Peter Crowther
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Hi Peter,
This is a fascinating photo and I believe he's my father-in-law's 2xG-grandfather (currently researching my father-in-law's tree for him, he's descended from Frances Garthwaite Crowther but knows nothing about anyone beyond his own parents I think). Isaac strikes me as an intriguing character, particularly the political correspondence - any idea where I might begin to look into that, or have you found it all from personal papers?
I believe you mentioned elsewhere that you'd written an article about Isaac and his father - where can I get hold of that?
Thanks.
J