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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Tiffaney on Friday 06 March 09 01:58 GMT (UK)
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Has anyone Sutherlands amongst their ancestors who came from Parish of Latheron, Caithness 1860 + who lived in Christchurch please?
I have a Christina who married in June 1868 from the home of a Mr Sutherland South Town Belt Christchurch. How on earth do I find what other members of the Sutherlands who lived at that address. If only we had had census's...did only the electoral rolls give one a rough idea.
Really need to find out the members of this Sutherland family. Believe the parents in Latheron were a William & Janet Sutherland MS Sinclair.
Back now to NZ queries.
Plse post anything you have....am soooo close, to hopefully breaking down my long time brick wall, am on tenderhooks, but must find more facts abt Sutherlands living in Christchurch.
Many thanks in advance for all who kindly help me.
Tiffaney
brickwall
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Have you checked newspaper transcriptions
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~ashleigh/
Best way to follow families other than electoral rolls are street directories
Are you near a main library?
to get an idea of whats available search at NZSG ,ibrary online
http://www.genealogy.org.nz/Search_the_Library_219.aspx
click on: advanced
In shelf location enter: NZ.DIR look at all dates and directries and see what times periods there are
If you are in Auckland you can go to library or ask CHCH library for a lookup or someone who can go in
Bye
Althea
Thre are NZSG members with interest in Sutherland's from LAtherton
http://www.genealogy.org.nz/Members_Interests_23.aspx
enter SUTHERLAND to see
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Thank you for your very helpful posting Althea.
Unfortunately not but Christchurch is the closest so will do so if poss.
Off now to see what I can come up with.
Your help is really appreciated.
Tiffaney :)
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Althea..from Papers Past (had this already)
Thurs 27 May 1876
Fatal Accident Archibald SUTHERLAND died at the Hosp. today, he suffered an accident at Brookside (Ellesmere), employed by Mr Reese, builder, he fell off scaffolding while working on local school.
Archibald's son is the boy Christina & William McLauchlan cared for after his mother also died two years later.
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Also Marriages
SMELLIE - SUTHERLAND
March 16 1892 at East Belt Linwood (ChCh), by Rev. Dr. Elmslie, William eldest son of Mr John SMELLIE, to Mary, only daughter of the late Archibald Cook Sutherland.
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Tried NZSG's again but the 3 there don't appear to be connected.
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Now searching library.
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Tiff
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Hi Tiffaney,
Have you ever searched the card index of early baptisms, marriages and burials at ChCh Library for your Sutherlands?
I can have a look for you next week if you haven't.
Stephanie
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I am also looking for Sutherland in Christchurch (period 1867 and before) ....
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Hi Tiffaney,
Have you ever searched the card index of early baptisms, marriages and burials at ChCh Library for your Sutherlands?
I can have a look for you next week if you haven't.
Stephanie
Hello Stephanie,
Would be really pleased if you could look up marriages and burials..will give you what I have already so you aren't doubling up.
I have a death cert for Catherine Sutherland who d: ChCH 1909. Parents: Wm Sutherland & Janet Sinclair buried Addington Cemetery
1. Ann Sutherland b: 1823 Latheron
2. John Sutherland
3. Catherine Sutherland b: 1827 (have death cert above)
4. Helen Sutherland b: 7 Jun 1829 m: Wm Sinclair 14 Feb 1851 Latheron
5. Archibald Cook Sutherland b: 1831
6. Christina Sutherland b: 1835
7. Elizabeth Sutherland b: 1837
8. Williamina Sutherland b:1839
9. James Sutherland b: 1841
10. William Sutherland b: 1844.
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Believe 5. Archibald Cook Sutherland died age 40 in hospital due to a fall from scaffolding on a school building at Brookside where he worked for Mr. Reese.#
# refer to yesterdays posting re Accident & Smellie/Sutherland marriage.
Wondering if he was living at Brookside at the time of the accident with his family as that was where Christina Sutherland who m: John McLauchlan (farmer) in ChCh June 1868 from the house of Mr Sutherland, was living.
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Hope I haven't confused you.
Your time & interest are very much appreciated Stephanie..thankyou
Tiffaney
ps: Nearly forgot some of the family were buried in Addington cemetery.
Will ring Ellesmere HS. tomorrow to see if I can find out more.
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I am also looking for Sutherland in Christchurch (period 1867 and before) ....
Gwen do you have any names or dates or where they were born.
Thanks
Tiffaney
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I have
Isabella Sutherland, married 8 january 1867 to John Keating, Christchurch
no other date :(
one of the children = Ellen Maria Keating, born in Rangiora (near Christchurch) in 1869
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I have
Isabella Sutherland, married 8 january 1867 to John Keating, Christchurch
no other date :(
one of the children = Ellen Maria Keating, born in Rangiora (near Christchurch) in 1869
Hi again Gwen,
Your Ellen Maria KEATING married William Hastings JONES in 1889 Folio: 1181
Will see if I can find anything else.
Tiffaney
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This may be your John & Isabella Keating MS Sutherland.
Buried Old Napier Cemetery F.O.2.14 Record No: 1509
Isabella died 1884 aged 36
John died 1905 aged 67
Tiffaney
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Napier ??? ...
how strange and it might be them because Ellen Maria Keating (daughter of the couple John Keating - Isabella Sutherland) despite being born in Rangiora ůmarried William JONES in 1889 and the couple moved (?)in 1892-93 to Napier (for william to work on the Napier breakwater construction) .. 2 of their son (Stanley and Norman were born in Napier 1894 and 1897)
How John Keating and Isabella S. ended up in Napier ? ... big mystery
what are your sources ?
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I have
Isabella Sutherland, married 8 january 1867 to John Keating, Christchurch
no other date :(
one of the children = Ellen Maria Keating, born in Rangiora (near Christchurch) in 1869
Hi again Gwen,
Your Ellen Maria KEATING married William Hastings JONES in 1889 Folio: 1181
Will see if I can find anything else.
Tiffaney
I knew about that one ... William and Ellen Maria are my husband great grandparents
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Hi Tiffany,
Had a look at the card index today. Lots of Sutherlands there so not possible to get details of all of them!
Did find a few I thought could be related including Catherine who died 1909 and others buried in the same plot at Addington Cemetery...
Catherine SUTHERLAND, buried 18 Nov 1909. 82 years. Section 137c Addington.
Undertaker: Langford and Rhind
Archabald SUTHERLAND, buried 27 Jan 1876, 40 years, Addington plot 137B
Archabald Cook SUTHERLAND, buried 21 July 1876, 5 months, plot 137a Addington
Barbra SUTHERLAND buried 9 Jan 1878, 40 years, plot 137B Addington.
James SUTHERLAND, died 15 May 1871, buried 17 May 1871, 29 years, Addington plot 137C
Noticed also this marriage and link to Caithness... but might not be one of yours!
William SUTHERLAND married Isabella KELLY, 1 Aug 1882 at Weslyan Church Lyttelton
Groom: 28 years, tailor, POB Caithness, Scotland, Present residence: Lyttelton, usual: Christchurch
Parents: Alexander, shoemaker and Jane nee SUTHERLAND
Bride: 24 years, POB: Hobart Tasmanis, present residence: Lyttelton, usual: Christchurch
Parents: William, labourer, Isabella nee MCFARQUHER
Possible link with name SINCLAIR ....
Catherine Ann Sinclair SUTHERLAND, buried 18 July 1867, 10 days, Addington plot 355B
Charles Sinclair Huia SUTHERLAND, born 9 Sep 1911, baptised 5 May 1929. Parents: George Alexander Douglas and Annie, Redcliffs, builder.
Couldn't find a record for the marriage of Christina and William MCLAUCHLAN. Pity - it may have had witnesses.
As I said - lots more Sutherlands in the index but probably best you have a look yourself some time if you are able to.
Cheers,
Stephanie :)
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Hello Stephanie,
Pretty ghastly weather to be heading into town but okay in the library I guess.
Thank you very much for your time & kindness looking for my Sutherlands.
Your are pretty spot on with all except not too sure about William Sutherland married to Isabella Kelly but is indeed a possible.
Witnesses to Christina S & William McLauchlan marriage June 1868, were James Sutherland, farmer, Selwyn District and Majory NAIRN - (Williams Niece). Know about Majory as her Mother was William's sister Ann DUNN
Have looked everywhere for James Sutherland, mind you there are also heaps of them, but haven't found the correct man yet.
Thank you once again for helping me Stephenie which is very much appreciated.
Warm regards,
Tiff
ps: Will stay a night with my daughter who lives in ChCh asap & let you know if I find out more.
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I have an Elizabeth Sutherland born abt 1835. She married Charles Fraser at the home of W. Sutherland, Columbo street, Chch in 1867.
Elizabeth died in 1918 at pages road, Halswell, Chch, and is buried in Addington cemetery
Unfortunately the death cert has very little info other than born scotland with parents unknown.
Would love to find out where elizabeth came from.
Does she fit into anyones family on this list???
Sandy
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Hello byper,
Extremely interested to learn you have an Elizabeht Sutherland born c1835 & that she marr ied fron the home of Mr. W. Sutherland Christchurch.
If you read my earlier query I too have an Elizabeth Sutherland who was born 1837. Your Elizabeth's marriage in 1867 is close enough to my Christinas who also married from the home of Mr Sutherland, Christchurch in June 1868.
Byper do you have Elizabeth's marriage cert. The Sutherlands who I mentioned earlier were also buried in Addington Cemetery except for Christina who was buried Waterton, Ashburton.
Hope somehow we can connect our Sutherlands with one another altho' there appear to quite a few who lived in Christchurch around 1860's +.
Do you have the names & dates of their children yet?
Will have a looksee & see if I can find something.
Regards,
Tiffaney
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Hi Tiffaney
The info i posted about elizabeth sutherlands marriage came from the marriage certificate. The marriage cert has her age as 24 which makes her born in 1843 but death cert has her age at 83 in 1918 making her born in 1835. We have an 8 year gap in the year she was born. No parent info on marriage cert, only that she married at the home of w. sutherland, columbo street. I am assuming this was her fathers home, and the W would more than likely be William.
The children of elizabeth sutherland and her husband charles fraser are -
Mary Fraser born 1868 , Jessie Fraser born 1869, James Sutherland Fraser born 1871, Margaret Fraser born 1874 and Annie Fraser born 1876 .
Regards
Sandy
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Hi again Bper,
Sorry I have only now seen your posting. I haven't been able to find our more on my Sutherlands as very rarely get into Christchurch & when I do it always a mad rush.
On my Christina's death cert it had her parents as Wm & Christina Sutherland nee Sutherland. Must pursue your Elizabeth when I eventually go to ChCh library...ours could possibly be connected. I have a few Sutherlands plus what I know of my own on my Ancestral forum.
regards,
Tiffaney
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William and Ellen Maria (nee Keating) JONES are my husband's great grandparents also, he is descended from their son Stanley Gordon
Do you have any information on Ellen Maria's parents - particularly how they came to be in Christcharch and where they came from before that?
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I didn't know Stanley had descent
You might be related to my husband then..(William and Maria are also my husband great grandparents, he descends from Maria and William JONES via Norman Harding
UNfortunately I haven't any information on Ellen Maria parents ... only that
Sutherland is a scottish name .. do you have Ellen Maria Sutherland and John Keating marriage certificate ? .. I only know (thanks to NZ BDM + index from city library that marriage date is : 8/01/1867
William and Ellen Maria (nee Keating) JONES are my husband's great grandparents also, he is descended from their son Stanley Gordon
Do you have any information on Ellen Maria's parents - particularly how they came to be in Christcharch and where they came from before that?
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Oh yes, there are descendants! Stanley Gordon Jones married an English woman, Nellie Harris, in Islington (London) on 21-9-1918 , while he was serving with the 2nd Battalion Otago Infantry. He fought at Gallipoli and in France (where he lost a leg). The family has a diary he kept for some of that time. Nellie and Stanley settled in Wellington after Stanley was discharged in 1919 and had two children - Gordon Hastings Jones and Catherine Olga (known as Kitty) - both of whom are now deceased. Gordon had 2 sons (including my husband) and 4 grandchildren, and Kitty had a son and 2 grandchildren.
Ellen Maria (nee KEATING) and William Hastings JONES were married in the Registrar's Office in Wellington on 9 April 1889. They had 4 sons and a daughter - Alfred William in 1889, Arthur Phillip in 1889, Stanley Gordon in 1894, Norman Harding in 1897 (so yes my husband and your's are distantly related) and Alice Amelia Caroline in 1901. They then adopted Bertha Elizabeth - she didn't marry and only died in 1994 aged 88, and was very much a part of my husband's family as he grew up. All of these children were still alive when Ellen Maria died in 1935, as they are listed on her death certificate.
Ellen Maria Keating's parents were Isabella (nee SUTHERLAND) and John KEATING. She was born on 8 December 1869 at Rangiroa and died in Invercargill on 28 April 1935 of a heart attack. William Hastings JONES' parents were Mary (nee McPike or McPeak) and Philip JONES. He was born at Inglewood in Victoria Australia and died on 2 January 1921 at Invercargill aged 58 and having been in NZ for 56 years.
That's all I know at this stage, but of course I'll keep posting here if I find more.
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I can see the 'pattern' of using Hastings as middle name has been kept (do you know it was initiate by Mary Ann JONES (born McPike) in memory of her mother maiden name )
My husband middle name is also Hastings
I have a copy of Philip Jones and Mary Ann McPike marriage certificate + copy of her passenger list entry when she came in Australia
Thanks so much for the information you gave me ... I did have only partial info re. Keatings, Sutherland, McPike but no details
Re- Philip Jones (Mary Ann McPike husband) I have a different information : there is indeed a Philip Jones born in Inglewood (Philip James JONES born 13/01/1861 Inglewood) his father was Philip Jones born in in Monmouthsire, Wales circa 1831) and his parents were Philip Jones and Ann Watkins, farmers, Monmouthsire, Abvergavenny
Do not hesitate if you have any other question about other branches of Jones family ..
Oh yes, there are descendants! Stanley Gordon Jones married an English woman, Nellie Harris, in Islington (London) on 21-9-1918 , while he was serving with the 2nd Battalion Otago Infantry. He fought at Gallipoli and in France (where he lost a leg). The family has a diary he kept for some of that time. Nellie and Stanley settled in Wellington after Stanley was discharged in 1919 and had two children - Gordon Hastings Jones and Catherine Olga (known as Kitty) - both of whom are now deceased. Gordon had 2 sons (including my husband) and 4 grandchildren, and Kitty had a son and 2 grandchildren.
Ellen Maria (nee KEATING) and William Hastings JONES were married in the Registrar's Office in Wellington on 9 April 1889. They had 4 sons and a daughter - Alfred William in 1889, Arthur Phillip in 1889, Stanley Gordon in 1894, Norman Harding in 1897 (so yes my husband and your's are distantly related) and Alice Amelia Caroline in 1901. They then adopted Bertha Elizabeth - she didn't marry and only died in 1994 aged 88, and was very much a part of my husband's family as he grew up. All of these children were still alive when Ellen Maria died in 1935, as they are listed on her death certificate.
Ellen Maria Keating's parents were Isabella (nee SUTHERLAND) and John KEATING. She was born on 8 December 1869 at Rangiroa and died in Invercargill on 28 April 1935 of a heart attack. William Hastings JONES' parents were Mary (nee McPike or McPeak) and Philip JONES. He was born at Inglewood in Victoria Australia and died on 2 January 1921 at Invercargill aged 58 and having been in NZ for 56 years.
That's all I know at this stage, but of course I'll keep posting here if I find more.
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oooh this is exciting, that you have this information! (I've never used something like rootschat before, saves a lot of time doesn't it!) And I've only just started looking at my husband's family so any information you have is fantastic
Can you tell me where and when Philip Jones and Mary Ann Pike were married? And shipping details please?
Maybe I wasn't clear earlier - I agree it's William Hastings Jones who was born at Inglewood in around 1863, maybe the Philip born in 1861 was his brother. I didn't know about Monmouthshire etc. Do you know any more about the Jones side?
We've lost the Hastings as a middle name from my husband's generation, but have some history of using the mother's maiden name - I always thought that was a Scottish tradition.
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Philip Jones and Mary Ann McPike (Woodward on the marriage certificate because she was widow of Isaac Woodward) married 10 april 1860 at Pleasant Creek, Victoria, Australi. Mary Ann was 7 month pregnant when her husband died (from a horse accident) , so she had a boy, Henry Isaac Woodward. From Mary Ann and Philip marriage there were 6 children : Philip James (born 1861, Inglewood); William Hastings born 1864 Southland, Albert Hastings born 1867, Edward Hastings born circa 1868, Alfred Hastings born 1871, and Amelia Caroline born 1876
shipping details for Mary Ann
Mary Ann McPike arrived on the ship Truro in Victoria in January 1854. The page number is 372, book 9
Truro"
Mary A MCPIKE 23
Occ: Dom Servant
From Middlesex
Religion CofE (Church of England)
Could Read & Write
Indenture: Mr Attenborough George St Collingwood. Wage: 30 Tenure: 1mth With rations.
oooh this is exciting, that you have this information! (I've never used something like rootschat before, saves a lot of time doesn't it!) And I've only just started looking at my husband's family so any information you have is fantastic
Can you tell me where and when Philip Jones and Mary Ann Pike were married? And shipping details please?
Maybe I wasn't clear earlier - I agree it's William Hastings Jones who was born at Inglewood in around 1863, maybe the Philip born in 1861 was his brother. I didn't know about Monmouthshire etc. Do you know any more about the Jones side?
We've lost the Hastings as a middle name from my husband's generation, but have some history of using the mother's maiden name - I always thought that was a Scottish tradition.
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Thank you so much for this, Gwenn. I'm curious that you say William Hastings was born Southland, as his death certificate says he was born in Inglewood but lived 56 of his 58 years in NZ. And do you have any ideas about why the family would have left Victoria for NZ? (Mary Ann had quite an eventful life!)
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Yes I can answer to that ... ...It was the Gold Rush ...
In Australia Mary Ann and Philip had a business .. groceries/accomodation/food and was providing for the miner near the mining field (Philip was manslaughter/butcher by trade) . At the time they left for new zealand (1863) it was the gold rush in NZ and they settled near the Mataura diggings in the south island and after in Menzies Ferry where they had an hotel near the ferry on the Mataura river
... I have plenty of info about this time...
Thank you so much for this, Gwenn. I'm curious that you say William Hastings was born Southland, as his death certificate says he was born in Inglewood but lived 56 of his 58 years in NZ. And do you have any ideas about why the family would have left Victoria for NZ? (Mary Ann had quite an eventful life!)
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I have more information today regarding William Hastings
it seems (according to NZ newspaper at the time) he has been declared bankrupt
It might have motivated his return from Napier to Southland ?!!
my source :
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=HBH18910810.2.11.4&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----2%22william+hastings+jones%22-all
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Not a piece of family history that has been handed on down . . . !
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Not a piece of family history that has been handed on down . . . !
Me neither ... lol
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Ruthel there is few information re- Jones in 'Paperpast' website ... I found Mary Ann JONES obituary and also what her son Philip James and daughter in law Alice published in the newspaper when she died (nice moving text)
will retrieve the link if you want
Also it seems there have been a court 'dispute' between Alice JONES (daughter in law) and Mary Ann estate executors ...
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Gwenn
so sorry, i seem to have missed your posting, yes I'd love to see the link, anything on court dispute too!
ruth
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Sorry I have been busy lately
below is the link
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ME18941019.2.18.1&srpos=7&e=-------10-PubMetaME-1----0Mary+Ann+JONES-all
HOwever I don"t know the outcome of the case court
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Hi Gwenn
Returning to Isabella SUTHERLAND (domestic servant, spinster , aged 22) who married John KEATING (farmer, bachelor, aged 26) at Mr Sutherland's house at Addington on 8 January 1867 . . .
Have you found any more on this couple, the parents of Ellen Maria? I would very much like to find out about when and how Isabella and John Keating came to New Zealand
I have obtained a death cert for Louisa Isabella KEATING who died 11 July 1884 and was buried at Napier Cemetery (see previous post by Tiffaney on 8 March 2009). I am not sure this is the right one . . . but it might be . . . what do you think?
The rest of the information on the certificate is as follows: died at Napier of puerperal fever for 16 days, aged 39, born Cawthronshire, resident in NZ for 17 years, daughters aged 15 and 2, sons aged 16 and 14 and 8 and 6, mother was Janet McKENZIE nee McLEOD, father was Francis McKENZIE, married at age 22 at Canterbury to John KEATING.
Some details match information we know - all the marriage information is consistent with the marriage certificate, and both death and marriage certificates point to her having been born in 1845
But there are some difficulties - for a start, this one is Louisa Isabella, not just Isabella. Her parents are McKenzie rather than Sutherland while her marriage cert to John Keating says she is a spinster. And even google doesn't know what Cawthronshire is!
The death cert indicates she arrived in NZ in 1866/67 aged 22 so she would have arrived just before she married John Keating
As for the children information, NZ BDM website has Frederick born to John and Louise Isabella Keating in 1876 (the 8 yo on the death cert?) and Isabella Jessie born to John and Isabella Keating in 1881 (the 2 yo on the death cert?) and also has Ellen in 1869. But no other likely ones I think.
Ruth
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No I've been busy with work and I haven't search toward Isabella Sutherland roots
few comments and thoughts
Yes it might be the right one at my opinion too many coincidences
Isabella KEATING - the marriage certificate says Isabella SUTHERLAND married John KEATING .. it doesn"t say that Mr Sutherland his her father ... maybe he is her employer and there is a mistake in the record ???? ... I will check Wise directory and electoral rolls on microfilm at the city library for these names at Addington tomorrow
Cawthron is a city near Leeds ... maybe (it's a long shot) worth to try to search census records for this town (will check on Ancestry)
Why Napier ????... strange she went up north ??? (strange coincidence also that her daughter and Williams went north also few year later)
It was common to new migrant to married straight away after arriving to NZ (I have few cases like that)
Cawthronshire : it might be a mispelling misinterpretation of possible scottish accent by the register clerk ... .. What about give a try for Cromartyshire or even Clackmannanshire
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Aah, yes, WORK!! gets in the way of fun things! Thanks for your response.
I also have the death cert for John KEATING, died 7 December 1905 at Hospital for Mental Diseases Wellington, Coroners Inquest Verdict of Jury Death from Senile Decay, aged 67, born Banshee Tipperary, Ireland, lived in NZ 45 years, occupation Cab Driver, Buried Napier, 2 daughters and 3 sons ages not recorded, mother Mary KEATING nee COLLINS, father William KEATING, married to Isabella Sutherland at Christchurch aged 26
So those marriage details agree with the marriage cert. The death cert implies he was born 1838 and came to NZ in 1860 aged 22. Maybe one son had died?
Google maps also can't find a place called Banshee but there are many other family history sites referring to that place so I guess it has been re-named
and his death cert says her maiden name was SUTHERLAND . . .
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Maybe it can be interesting to see where the KEATING (John and Isabella) were living in Napier (will check electoral roll tomorrow and keep you posted .. If I find exact adress can even take a pic when going to Napier in few month time)
Banshee ??? where is suppose to be ????
I will check the school roll in Napier for the kids also (can access to that at my city library )
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Ruthel,
What about BANSHA, County of Tipperary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bansha
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i found that ... it might not be him but birthdate is close and the mention of emigration is interesting
Ireland, The Royal Irish Constabulary 1816-1921
about Keating, John
Name: Keating, John
Birth Date/Age: 20
Birthplace: Tipperary
Marriage or Comments: EMIGRATED
Enlisted: 1856
Film #: 856062
Page #: 114
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Do you have a transcript or a copy of the original document (death certificate) ?
Because I've been turning around this name in my mind and did some research ... there is in Scotland a village call Latheron (called also Latheronwheel) .. A mistranscript of the L and the name can give Cawthronshire. It's maybe a long shot ....
Latheron, par. and fishing vil., S. Caithness - par., 119,539 ac., pop. 6675; vil. (called also Latheronwheel and Janetstown), at mouth of Latheronwheel Burn, 18 miles SW. of Wick and 19 miles NE. of Helmsdale; P.O.; in vicinity is Latheronwheel House, seat
Some details match information we know - all the marriage information is consistent with the marriage certificate, and both death and marriage certificates point to her having been born in 1845
But there are some difficulties - for a start, this one is Louisa Isabella, not just Isabella. Her parents are McKenzie rather than Sutherland while her marriage cert to John Keating says she is a spinster. And even google doesn't know what Cawthronshire is!
The death cert indicates she arrived in NZ in 1866/67 aged 22 so she would have arrived just before she married John Keating
As for the children information, NZ BDM website has Frederick born to John and Louise Isabella Keating in 1876 (the 8 yo on the death cert?) and Isabella Jessie born to John and Isabella Keating in 1881 (the 2 yo on the death cert?) and also has Ellen in 1869. But no other likely ones I think.
Ruth
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hi Gwenn
I think your suggestion of Bansha Tipperary for John Keating's birthplace is inspired!
For both Isabella and John KEATING I have the transcript death certificates issued by NZ BD&M. Is it worth finding someone to look at the microfiches (I'm in Sydney, presumably the microfiches are in Wullington?) I have other certificates with errors on (eg obvious ones like 1969 instead of 1869 ) so maybe there's a typo? In your experience, do the microfiches have more detail than on the transcript?
Regarding Isabella's maiden surname, I have also just noticed that on Ellen Keating's birth certificate (again, a transcript) her mother's name is listed as Isabella KEATING nee JONES . Not SUTHERLAND or MCKENZIE!
Perhaps it would be good to see the original microfiches for
Death Registration Number 1884/2380 - Louisa Isabella KEATING, 11 July 1884
Birth Registration Number 1869/5079 - Ellen KEATING, 8 December 1869
Marriage Registration Number 1867/4300 - Isabella SUTHERLAND and John KEATING
Death Registration Number 1905/7080 - John KEATING, 7 December 1905
Ruth
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I have found a couple of possibilities for John KEATING arriving in NZ - a J Keating arrived in Auckland on vessel Breadalbane on 17 March 1862 and another J Keating arrived in Auckland on 27 June 1861 on vessel Constance. Could he have moved south for the gold?
Are NZ passenger lists online?
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Yes some of NZ passenger lists are online
I did have few findings this afternoon at the library with electoral rolls . Will come back to you later today.
I have found a couple of possibilities for John KEATING arriving in NZ - a J Keating arrived in Auckland on vessel Breadalbane on 17 March 1862 and another J Keating arrived in Auckland on 27 June 1861 on vessel Constance. Could he have moved south for the gold?
Are NZ passenger lists online?
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In her marriage certificate with Philip JONES, Mary Ann McPike was listed at Mary Ann Woodward, widow (Woodward was the surname of her 1st husband) .... so I'm not surprised with few 'fantasy' about people naming especially in this early time in NZ
It's a shame NZ BDM issue transcripts (which are sometime full of mispellings)
I'm not in Wellington but I might try to ask for a look up on this forum (and might order certificate at last ressort because they are very expensives)
hi Gwenn
I think your suggestion of Bansha Tipperary for John Keating's birthplace is inspired!
For both Isabella and John KEATING I have the transcript death certificates issued by NZ BD&M. Is it worth finding someone to look at the microfiches (I'm in Sydney, presumably the microfiches are in Wullington?) I have other certificates with errors on (eg obvious ones like 1969 instead of 1869 ) so maybe there's a typo? In your experience, do the microfiches have more detail than on the transcript?
Regarding Isabella's maiden surname, I have also just noticed that on Ellen Keating's birth certificate (again, a transcript) her mother's name is listed as Isabella KEATING nee JONES . Not SUTHERLAND or MCKENZIE!
Perhaps it would be good to see the original microfiches for
Death Registration Number 1884/2380 - Louisa Isabella KEATING, 11 July 1884
Birth Registration Number 1869/5079 - Ellen KEATING, 8 December 1869
Marriage Registration Number 1867/4300 - Isabella SUTHERLAND and John KEATING
Death Registration Number 1905/7080 - John KEATING, 7 December 1905
Ruth
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Hang on .. !!!! in re-reading the early posts of this topic ... i realise that Tiffanney speaks about Latheron and Sutherland .... !!!!!
Do you have a transcript or a copy of the original document (death certificate) ?
Because I've been turning around this name in my mind and did some research ... there is in Scotland a village call Latheron (called also Latheronwheel) .. A mistranscript of the L and the name can give Cawthronshire. It's maybe a long shot ....
Latheron, par. and fishing vil., S. Caithness - par., 119,539 ac., pop. 6675; vil. (called also Latheronwheel and Janetstown), at mouth of Latheronwheel Burn, 18 miles SW. of Wick and 19 miles NE. of Helmsdale; P.O.; in vicinity is Latheronwheel House, seat
Some details match information we know - all the marriage information is consistent with the marriage certificate, and both death and marriage certificates point to her having been born in 1845
But there are some difficulties - for a start, this one is Louisa Isabella, not just Isabella. Her parents are McKenzie rather than Sutherland while her marriage cert to John Keating says she is a spinster. And even google doesn't know what Cawthronshire is!
The death cert indicates she arrived in NZ in 1866/67 aged 22 so she would have arrived just before she married John Keating
As for the children information, NZ BDM website has Frederick born to John and Louise Isabella Keating in 1876 (the 8 yo on the death cert?) and Isabella Jessie born to John and Isabella Keating in 1881 (the 2 yo on the death cert?) and also has Ellen in 1869. But no other likely ones I think.
Ruth
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To come back to the SUTHERLAND fron Addington Christchurch
Isabella and John KEATING married at Mr Sutherland house in Addington (according to marriage certificate) ... nothing says that this Mr Sutherland was Isabella father.
In 1867; in the election roll; in the vicinity of Addington, Christchurch I found 2 SUTHERLAND
# 1092 Daniel SUTHERLAND
# 1093 Robert SUTHERLAND
both living Cashel street, house + shop, leashold ....
Isabella might likely have been the servant (maybe coming fron the same village in Scotland ??)
On Robert SUTHERLAND from Christchurch I found further information
here : http://www.flickr.com/photos/porkynz/3146453337/
and in the NZETC
Mr. Robert Sutherland, who has been honorary treasurer of the Canterbury Caledonian Society since its foundation, is a native of Caithness, Scotland, where he was born in 1834, and was educated in his native county. Mr. Sutherland landed in Melbourne from the ship “James Bains” in 1855, and after being in employment for a short time as a clerk, had a considerable gold-mining experience at Ballarat, Bendigo, and Woolshed Creek, and other fields. He came to New Zealand in 1862, and worked at Waipori, Fox's, and Lake Wakatipu diggings. In June of the following year Mr. Sutherland came to Christchurch, where he became well and favourably known in connection with the large grocery business in Cashel Street, in which for a time his late brother Daniel was associated with him. Since 1888 Mr. Sutherland has been in business as a broker, commission and financial agent. He is a life member of the Canterbury Agricultural Association in which he takes great interest, and has been an energetic member of the committee of that body for about twenty years. Mr. Sutherland has long been connected with St. Paul's Presbyterian Church, of which he was treasurer from 1867 to 1888.
the link + photo is here : http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/Cyc03Cycl-fig-Cyc03Cycl0223c.html
Hope it helps
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Next time you ask a record from NZ BDM don't ask for a certificate .. ask for a print out
which is a copy of the original image
http://bdmhistoricalrecords.identityservices.govt.nz/PaymentsAndProducts/
not a transcript
hi Gwenn
I think your suggestion of Bansha Tipperary for John Keating's birthplace is inspired!
For both Isabella and John KEATING I have the transcript death certificates issued by NZ BD&M. Is it worth finding someone to look at the microfiches (I'm in Sydney, presumably the microfiches are in Wullington?) I have other certificates with errors on (eg obvious ones like 1969 instead of 1869 ) so maybe there's a typo? In your experience, do the microfiches have more detail than on the transcript?
Regarding Isabella's maiden surname, I have also just noticed that on Ellen Keating's birth certificate (again, a transcript) her mother's name is listed as Isabella KEATING nee JONES . Not SUTHERLAND or MCKENZIE!
Perhaps it would be good to see the original microfiches for
Death Registration Number 1884/2380 - Louisa Isabella KEATING, 11 July 1884
Birth Registration Number 1869/5079 - Ellen KEATING, 8 December 1869
Marriage Registration Number 1867/4300 - Isabella SUTHERLAND and John KEATING
Death Registration Number 1905/7080 - John KEATING, 7 December 1905
Ruth
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I can see now there's a difference. But I've been paying $26 per certificate, the same as they charge for a transcript - i didn't know i could get a printout. Thanks for the tip! Hubby's off to NZ tomorrow, if he goes to W'ton, I'll get him to do the search, don't buy anything! :)
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I know it's a rip off to charge for old document the same price than for current certificate (I mean recent)
Have you seen my previous posts ... re the catholic possibility , + the whereabout of the John Keating in Hawkes bay ? etc....
I can see now there's a difference. But I've been paying $26 per certificate, the same as they charge for a transcript - i didn't know i could get a printout. Thanks for the tip! Hubby's off to NZ tomorrow, if he goes to W'ton, I'll get him to do the search, don't buy anything! :)
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Regarding Ellen Maria's siblings, the BDM records have Frederick born to John and Louise Isabella Keating in 1876 (the 8 yo on Isabella's death cert?) and Isabella Jessie born to John and Isabella Keating in 1881 (the 2 yo on Isabella's death cert?). I have now also found a news clipping from 1895 about John Joseph 'second son of John Keating of Napier' getting married (paperspast, Hawkes Bay Herald) - if he was the 14yo on Isabella's death cert then he would have been 25 getting married, which makes sense. So we need to look for 2 more boys - the 16 yo and the 6 yo on Isabella's death cert
I also found news clippings in the Hawkes Bay Herald for the following:
John Keating forfeiting bail for drunkenness (7/10/1878)
John Keating a sheep farmer of Mohaka filing for bankruptcy (14/10/1879), the estate of John Keating auctioning horses and dogs (several days in a row to 7/11/1879), and discharge of his bankruptcy granted (6/8/1880).
John Keating of Shakespeare Road offering for let a 4 room house on Coote Road Napier, and John Keating demanding that John Bullock remove the dog he has left at his house (several days in a row, 18/11/1884)
John Keating gives evidence in an unrelated court case (sensational divorce case, a good read!) saying that he has been in the employ of a Mr Joshua since 1890 (28/10/1892) but it’s not clear what Mr Joshua employs him to do, maybe John works at the Spa owned by Mr Joshua? And John Keating cabdriver gave evidence at another unrelated trial (12/5/1899)
John Keating cabdriver being bound over to keep the peace after a quarrel at the railway station (4/2/1896). John Keating being found guilty of using offensive language (4/8/1896). John Keating, a local cabman, being charged with refusing to take a passenger (4/4/1897). John Keating was fined for driving a vehicle around a corner at other than a walking pace (11/12/1900)
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Your information below seems to asserts the finding from
Wise directory 1880-81 - found KEATING J. sheepfarmer, Mohaka, Hawkes Bay
Found him in :
NZ electoral roll 1882-84 - residential - Napier - Laborer (not in rolls for previous years probably because not owning land)
NZ electoral roll 1887 - residential - Napier- Laborer
Seems that bankruptcy was common on those days
I also found news clippings in the Hawkes Bay Herald for the following:
John Keating forfeiting bail for drunkenness (7/10/1878)
John Keating a sheep farmer of Mohaka filing for bankruptcy (14/10/1879), the estate of John Keating auctioning horses and dogs (several days in a row to 7/11/1879), and discharge of his bankruptcy granted (6/8/1880).
John Keating of Shakespeare Road offering for let a 4 room house on Coote Road Napier, and John Keating demanding that John Bullock remove the dog he has left at his house (several days in a row, 18/11/1884)
John Keating gives evidence in an unrelated court case (sensational divorce case, a good read!) saying that he has been in the employ of a Mr Joshua since 1890 (28/10/1892) but it’s not clear what Mr Joshua employs him to do, maybe John works at the Spa owned by Mr Joshua? And John Keating cabdriver gave evidence at another unrelated trial (12/5/1899)
John Keating cabdriver being bound over to keep the peace after a quarrel at the railway station (4/2/1896). John Keating being found guilty of using offensive language (4/8/1896). John Keating, a local cabman, being charged with refusing to take a passenger (4/4/1897). John Keating was fined for driving a vehicle around a corner at other than a walking pace (11/12/1900)
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Boat arriving from where ? Australia ?
I have found a couple of possibilities for John KEATING arriving in NZ - a J Keating arrived in Auckland on vessel Breadalbane on 17 March 1862 and another J Keating arrived in Auckland on 27 June 1861 on vessel Constance. Could he have moved south for the gold?
Are NZ passenger lists online?
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Hi,
I am researching the Sutherland/ Keating family. I can't add much to what you have found here, but my father was adopted by Frederick Keating and his second wife Amelia Sarah Edge. Frederick Keating was born 15th April 1876 in Napier he first married Catherine McGregor on 12th January 1899 in Whanganui. He then married Amelia Sarah Edge on the 10th December 1918 at Westport. He owned Dawson's Hotel in Reefton and died there on 13th January 1939. I only have back to William Keating and Mary/Ellen Collins on the Keating side but know nothing about them. On the Sutherland side I couldn't find any info past Louisa Isabella Sutherland, so was very interested and confussed by the info on her death cert naming her parents as McKenzie, would love to hear if you have got any more info on this.
Trev
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Hello cousin!
There are 3 different maiden names given for Isabella - Sutherland, Jones and McKenzie. Her own marriage transcript clearly says her maiden name is Sutherland but her own death transcript says Mckenzie, and the informant is her brother Francis McKenzie of Tuke Tuke Station so McKenzie is probably the right one. The birth transcript for Ellen Maria Keating (Frederick's eldest sister) says her mother's maiden name is Jones. The marriage certificate for Ellen Maria says her mother's maiden name was Sutherland. Ellen Maria's death certificate also says Isabella's maiden name was Jones. The Sutherland may have come from her having been a domestic servant for a Mr Sutherland of Addington from whose home she married. The Jones - ??!!
Do you know the names of the other siblings of Ellen Maria (b1869) and Frederick (b 1876)? There was John Joseph born 1870/71 and Jessie Isabella born 1881. There was a son born in 1868/69, and a son born around 1878/79 but we haven't traced their names.
There is also some interesting information about John Keating, which Gwenn02 has discovered. Seems he and his sister migrated to Melbourne in the 1850s. The sister married and migrated on to the USA but returned home to Bansha Tipperary Ireland first. That family always thought John Keating died in Australia, however we know that he was in NZ by Jan 1867 because that's when he married, and went on to have a family before dying in 1905
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Hi,
Unfortunately I am only aware of the siblings you have mentioned and was unaware that there were any others until I read these posts.
I have found a Isabella Sutherland 22yrs Domestic servant from Caithness-shire who came to New Zealand from London on the "Blue Jacket" it left London on 18th July 1866 and arrived in Lyttelton on14th October 1866. If this is our Isabella then she was using Sutherland before she came to NZ.
Trev
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Waoooo !!!! another cousin !!!! :) :)
Yes I found info on Keating with somebody who is not a rootschatter ....
I can give them to you if you want
Hi,
I am researching the Sutherland/ Keating family. I can't add much to what you have found here, but my father was adopted by Frederick Keating and his second wife Amelia Sarah Edge. Frederick Keating was born 15th April 1876 in Napier he first married Catherine McGregor on 12th January 1899 in Whanganui. He then married Amelia Sarah Edge on the 10th December 1918 at Westport. He owned Dawson's Hotel in Reefton and died there on 13th January 1939. I only have back to William Keating and Mary/Ellen Collins on the Keating side but know nothing about them. On the Sutherland side I couldn't find any info past Louisa Isabella Sutherland, so was very interested and confussed by the info on her death cert naming her parents as McKenzie, would love to hear if you have got any more info on this.
Trev
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The Isabella KEATING (maiden name Mckenzie) who died in Napier was also coming from Caithness (according to Napier Courthouse death register transcripts from NZ society of genealogists) .. and maybe from a place call Latheron. There is lot of Sutherland in Caithness (it's a Lord Sutherland area according to my records about scottish clearances) and maybe ... it's only a guess Sutherland was a name use because the place she was coming from ... feudal system last long in the Highlands ... it's only a guess )
Hi,
Unfortunately I am only aware of the siblings you have mentioned and was unaware that there were any others until I read these posts.
I have found a Isabella Sutherland 22yrs Domestic servant from Caithness-shire who came to New Zealand from London on the "Blue Jacket" it left London on 18th July 1866 and arrived in Lyttelton on14th October 1866. If this is our Isabella then she was using Sutherland before she came to NZ.
Trev
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Hi,
Yes I thought I only had a few relations with my Dad being an only child and my Mum only having one sister, but since I start this I am finding relations all over the world !!
As far as Isabella's surname is concerned it seems to be quite common to change it when changing country, I have two branches on my Mothers side who have done the same thing. I guess they didn't think about their distant relatives trying to trace their family trees.
Thank you for all your previous postings I have got a heap of information from them. I would love any info I can get on the Keating side.
Thanks again
Trev
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It's late her in nz... I have no time right now to send you anything (will do it later)
However you can clic on my nickname and see my previous posts (on various link with keating / jones etc... family
Hi,
Yes I thought I only had a few relations with my Dad being an only child and my Mum only having one sister, but since I start this I am finding relations all over the world !!
As far as Isabella's surname is concerned it seems to be quite common to change it when changing country, I have two branches on my Mothers side who have done the same thing. I guess they didn't think about their distant relatives trying to trace their family trees.
Thank you for all your previous postings I have got a heap of information from them. I would love any info I can get on the Keating side.
Thanks again
Trev
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I went yesterday for some 'diggins in the nz electoral rolls & Wise directory
I might have found the name of Ellen Maria other sibling (one of the boy)
JOHN KEATING - the father :
In Wise directory 1880-81 - found KEATING J. sheepfarmer, Mohaka, Hawkes Bay
In Wise directory 1892 - Dickens street Napier
Wise 1899 - Raglan st - Napier
NZ electoral roll 1882-84 - residential - Napier - Laborer (not in rolls for previous years)
NZ electoral roll 1887 - residential - Napier- Laborer
NZ electorall roll 1902 - Hastings street - Napier
for JOHN JOHN KEATING - the son
Wise directory 1902 - Jno J - Hardinge Rd Napier
electoral rolls 1902 and 1905 occupation = cab proprietor - same address with his wife
electoral rolls 1919 = taxi proprietor - same address with his wife Christina Mary
I also found and it might be the 'missing brother
there is also a Arthur Ernest KEATING Coote Rd Napier - cabman + wife Annie
electoral rolls 1905 Arthur Ernest living Colin street - cabman
electoral rolls 1919 - address 120 Waghorne Street cabman + wife Annie
i didn't have time to search further ....
Regarding Ellen Maria's siblings, the BDM records have Frederick born to John and Louise Isabella Keating in 1876 (the 8 yo on Isabella's death cert?) and Isabella Jessie born to John and Isabella Keating in 1881 (the 2 yo on Isabella's death cert?). I have now also found a news clipping from 1895 about John Joseph 'second son of John Keating of Napier' getting married (paperspast, Hawkes Bay Herald) - if he was the 14yo on Isabella's death cert then he would have been 25 getting married, which makes sense. So we need to look for 2 more boys - the 16 yo and the 6 yo on Isabella's death cert
I
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Up !!!
Just for Ruthel and TrevK ... in case of they didn't see the last post :-)
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I checked out NZBDM and found Arthur Ernest Keating born 1878 (the right year for the 6yr old) Father John Keating and Mother Josephine Keating (another mistake ?). Marriage record for 1901 to a Annie Leith (which is interesting as John Joseph Keating married Christina Mary Leith), and a death record for 1936.
Trev
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:) Hello
Happy New year ....
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and happy new year to you too Gwenn02 and TrevK and all other descendants of Isabella and John Keating . . .
let's see what we can unearth this year
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a photo of the headstone of John and Isabella KEATING at Napier Old Cemetery
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Hello
Trev, wondering if you found anything else about that Isabella Sutherland aged 22 who arrived in Lyttelton from Caithness on the Blue Jacket on 14 October 1866? It all matches, doesn't it. Do you know if it's possible to get a manifest, find out any more info about her?
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I checked out NZBDM and found Arthur Ernest Keating born 1878 (the right year for the 6yr old) Father John Keating and Mother Josephine Keating (another mistake ?). Marriage record for 1901 to a Annie Leith (which is interesting as John Joseph Keating married Christina Mary Leith), and a death record for 1936.
Trev
Just to raise another option for that 6yo . . .there is an 1879 Birth on BDM (1879/8065) for a Francis McKenzie, son of Isabella and father Not Recorded. John Keating forfeited bail for drunkenness in October 1878 and was declared bankrupt in October 1879, so maybe amidst the stress of that, Isabella left him, gave the son her maiden name and her brother's fist name? what do you think?
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Hi,
Sorry I haven't answered for a while, have been very busy with other things. I found the passenger list for Isabella Sutherland on the web at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nzbound/bluejacket.htm. I have also come across the following site http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/tipp/BANSHABAPTISMS.htm it has a lot of baptisms for the Keating family.
Trev
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we are the descendants of Arthur Ernest Keating and Annie Leith. The two brothers John Joseph and Arthur married two sisters Christina and Annie Leith from Ngaruawahia. The girls father was James Leith from Wick Caithness. His half siblings from his father Alexanders 1st marriage were with a lady called Christain (Christina?) Sutherland of Wick. The names that have been mentioned in these posts are family names that have been handed down and tie in with our findings. We have a theory that James and Isabella Sutherland may of been related through the relationship of his father and 1st wife.
We believe that James would of arrived at a similar time as Isabella but at this stage have no details. They were born approximately the same year.
Fantastic learning more about the Keating side as we only had info on John Joseph and Arthur no further back.
Would be great to hear from you all with any more info. Jane and Michelle x
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My G G Grandmother was Lillias Sutherland Birth 1851 in Latheron, Caithness shire
Death 5 Jul 1924 in Seacliffe Mental Hospital, Oamaru, New Zealand.
Parents were Benjamin Sutherland
Birth 5 June 1810 in Latheron, Caithness, Scotland
Death 2 July 1900 in Portomine, Dunbeath, Caithness, Scotland
Elizabeth Gunn
Birth 10 May 1821 in Dunbeath Inn, Caithness, Scotland
Death 29 Jun 1897 in Portomine, Dunbeath, Caithness, Scotland
I think we are talking about the same family.