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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Molloyboy on Wednesday 04 March 09 20:38 GMT (UK)
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Can you help me find them?
They marry in Holborn in 1860.
In 1861 they live at 1 Brill Crescent. George 24 b. Blackburn, Lancashire is a miner. Louisa 23 b. Marylebone a basket maker.
She was a witness at her nephew's wedding in 1870.
After that, nada.
Dan
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Death (possible)
Louisa Biddlecombe age 63
BethnalGreen 1a 181
Jan/Feb/Mar 1899
so she should be somewhere '71,'81,'91!
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I cannot find George and Louisa on 1871 or 1881, I have even looked at 1861 and can't find them listed there at all
Any other information would be useful
Where is Brill Cres?
poss death for George
Mar qtr 1890 St Geo In East aged 62 ref 1C 334
date of birth circa 1838
so if there are 2 possible deaths why can't I find them on a census ?
Louisa Maud
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Hi Louisa Maud,
1 Brill Crescent. RG09/113/161/78 Marylebone.
Is George aged:34 ?
Devis
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found them, Devis, on 1861 but where are they following ?
George's death I found doesn't appear to fit in, losing my touch !!
LM
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I can`t find them anywhere. Very puzzling ??? ???
Devis
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I have tried every way which I can with no joy at all, strange isn't it, if only Molloyboy would come up witH more info we just might find them, there is a George and Louisa but ages don't match up at all,
free BMD's have lots of Biddlecombe's but there are not so many on other sites
LM
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As George was a miner I tried checking Wales 1881 census. No joy.
Maybe Scotland ? ( desperate! ) :)
Devis
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I went to bed crossed eyed looking for the Biddlecombe family, not a pretty sight I can tell you, after searching again various ways I just cannot come up with this family, so as I am feeling very much like Devis with his computer icon and I am going to give up.
I hope someone can come up with them somewhere Molloyboy, it did cross my mind they might have shortened the name, one of my own family did just that and they were really tricky to find, did they become Biddle? just a thought
Happy hunting
Louisa Maud
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Thanks for all your efforts Louisa Maud and Devis. Much appreciated.
Yeah sorry. I ommitted to mention that Brill Crescent is in St Pancras.
As I lay in bed last night, it occurred to me, What was a miner doing in St Pancras anyway? Perhaps he was in the capital working on some civil engineering project that required experienced diggers.
In this light, perhaps George and Louisa moved to the next big civil engineering job somewhere in the world. Who knows?
It's a long shot, but...................
Dan
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I to wondered why he waS in London being a minor, do you know anything about any children they had, that might be a lead.
LM
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I to wondered why he waS in London being a minor, do you know anything about any children they had, that might be a lead.
LM
No, I'm afraid not Louisa Maud. The last reference to both of them that I have is the 1861 census, where there are definitely no children.
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That's a shame, so it looks as if you are beyond help, if you see what I mean
anyway Molloyboy, good luck
LM
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Can we perhaps thry an approach from a different angle?
You say last heard of as witness to nephews wedding.
Did she sign then as Biddlecombe (full name)?
Where was the wedding? What were the names of the nephew and bride?
Second different approach - what was Louisa's maiden name. pre 1860? HAve you found any of her family in 1871 onwards - could she/and/or hubby be with them and wrongly listed with that surname? (though I cant see that happeneing in a whole series of censuses!)
just trying to think (quite a long way) outside the box!
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Lizdb
I do feel she should be somewhere on the 1871 to be honest, I have tried with just Christian names, and all combinations of including beginning with a P, and that is not a silly suggestion as I have one which they have given a bit of a naughty name afer the 1901 came online, it is clearly what the name should be but transcribed something else, so the name beginning with a P was not so stupid, ever felt like knocking your head against a wall?, they may of course they emigrated, that is possible I suppose between the wedding and the 1871 unless of course the death found was her.
She was previously Louisa Packer if I am correct taking it from the date that Molloyboy gave
LM
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Aha - now if Molloyboy has the Holborn marriage cert and can confirm what her dad's name and occupation are, then we may be on to something.
If her dad is Joseph, a silk weaver, then here is her family in 1851 and ... she is called Eliza Louisa here.
HO107 1490 756 54
31 Boston place, Marylebone
Joseph Packer 56 Silk weaver bn Reading Berks
Elizabeth 52 bn middx St George
Henry Alonzo Stewart Packer 13 son bn Marylebone
Eliza Louisa Packer 11 bn Marylebone
David Packer 32 visitor bn Berks Reading
and her birth is
Jan/Feb/MAr 1840
Eliza Louisa Packer
Marylebone 1 181
(and out of interest, brother's birth is
Jan/Feb/Mar 1838
Henry Alonzo Stewart Packer
Bethnal Green 2 217)
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And in 1841 - Big age gap suggests possiboe second marriage for Jo or Eliz, or maybe Henry and Eliza(Louisa) are not their children but actually grandchildren??
HO107 677 12
Boston Place Marylebone
Joseph Packer 47 labourer Not bn in county
Elizabeth 40 yes
Jemima 20 yes
Nesta 12 yes
Henry 2 yes
Eliza 1 yes
next door
Henry Packer 17 weaver yes
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if it is any help I have found her baptism
St Mary, St Marylebone Road
born 04/02/1840
bapt 14/04/1840
father Joseph
Mother Elizabeth
Plus her siblings
But we are no nearer the Biddlecombe's
LM
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We are not, I know, but at least it has brought into play the possibility that she (IF this is her! ! ! ) may use the name Eliza.
(not that I can find an Eliza Biddlecombe either!)
WAiting to see what Molloyboy says about her dad from marriage., and about the nephew
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I got really excited just now, easily pleased me, but this Eliza Biddlecombe was 30 MONTHS on 1871, would have been close if it had showed 30 years but sadly not, her age on 1861 was a little out if she was born 1840,
I just hope we are not barking up the wrong tree but we won't know till Molloyboy comes up with the details
I am off for lunch, I think I deserve it !!
LM
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Thanks for taking an interest Liz.
You suggested coming at it from a different angle, and finding out her maiden name. You're right, she was born LOUISA PACKER. It's really the Packers I'm researching.
She was born in Marylebone, Middx 1838.
Her father was John Packer basket maker b. Sandwich, Kent 1804.
Her mother was Elizabeth Lewis b. C 1809.
In 1841 she lived with her parents and siblings John, Matthew, Charles, and sophia in Southwark.
In 1851 she lived with her widowed father at 15, Brunswick Grove St Pancras.
She married George Biddlecombe in 1860.
In 1861 Louisa and George lived at Brill Crescent St Pancras.
Oh yeah, she was a witness to the marriage of Thomas John Packer and Margaret O' Shaughnessy in St Botolph, London in 1873 (not 1870 as I said previously). Thomas was her brother Matthews son.
Phew, I wish I could have cut and pasted that lot from my notes.
Dan
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I am wondering if there is an Irish connection here whereby the Biddlecombe's went backward and forwards to Ireland and missed the census.
LM
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In the 1861 census, George is 34, not 24. Sorry.
Dan
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I have looked at the 1861 and noted that he was 34 and not 24 as you had previously stated, but to be quite honest , I am stumped, can't find hide nor hair of them on 1871 even by just using Christian names and plus or minus 5 years either side of expected birht dates
LM
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OK, so we can scrub Eliza out of the picture (shame, i did so like that name for her brother, Henry Alonzo...!)
The REAL Louisa's birth is -
Jan/Feb/Mar 1838
MArylebone 1 123
Louisa Packer
But - 1851 census is interesting. By rights (from birth, age at marriage etc) she should be about 13.
But she is listed as 19. the image is pretty clear - I suppose the only other thing it could possibly be is a 12 with a very curly 2. Which would be OK, if her birthday (13th) was after the census.
Here it is -
HO107 1495 294 63
John 46 widowr Basket MAker Master bn Sandwich Kent
Louisa 19 House servant bn Marylebone
Sophia 11 bn M
Ann 4 bn Bermonsey Surrey
Sarah Humphries dtr in law Unm 26 Housekeeper bn St George in the East
James Humphries 5 son bn St G in the East
Who is Sarah? for her to be a dtr in law she would be married to a Packer son, and therfore called Packer. MAybe she is a step daughter, and John's wife had been married before to a Humphries.
Have you actually got her marriage cert to Biddlecombe? with dad John the basketmaker on it
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Could this be Louisa`s father John remarried.? :)
1871 RG10/292/34/60 2 Lambyard, Islington
Packer John H M 66 Basket Maker b. Kent
Packer Sarah W M 46 b. Bloomsbury
Devis
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Liz, we are entering stormy Packer waters.
It seems both JOHN PACKER b. Sandwich 1804, and his son MATTHEW PACKER b. White chapel C 1829, had a predeliction for unofficial marriages.
John 'shacked up' with his housekeeper/daughter in law Sarah when his wife died and Matthew had at least 4 children with a woman called Ann Purdy before they separated and both married different people.
Anyhoo, no I don't have George and Louisa Biddlecombe's marriage cert.
.................And, how do you do that Liz? In your last post, you included a whole block of text from a census listing. I can't right-click without a copyright notice popping up.
Dan
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Marriage June 1858 Newington 1d 211
John Packer to Sarah Humphries
Devis :)
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I missed that Devis.
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.................And, how do you do that Liz? In your last post, you included a whole block of text from a census listing. I can't right-click without a copyright notice popping up.
I typed it out!
Copyright rules prevent cut and paste. but the actual information is not copyright, so yuo can type it in your own words.
Devis has found the marriage to Sarah Humphries (well done D)
With the age query on 1851 and no sign after1861, it might be a good idea to get the marriage cert to Biddlecombe, just to confirm that her dad is James the basket weaver and we are looking at the right lass. And to see if it has any other clues.
At pesent everything is hinging on her age on that 1861 census - and we all know censuses can be wrong ...........
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I never thought to look beyond middlesex for the marriage of John Packer and Sarah Humphries, So thanks Dev.
You wanna be careful Devis. You're so sharp you'll cut yourself.
Again my thanks to Devis, Lizdb and Louisa Maud. Typing out census info, I call that action above and beyond the call of duty.
PS. I've already ordered Louisa Packers Birth cert. I've always assumed Liz that 19 in 1861 should be 13.
PPS. Guess I'll have to order Louisa and George Biddlecombes marriage certificate now, along with John Packers and Sarah Humphries.
Dan
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Thanks Dan, hopefully all will be revealled if you let us know the outcome of the marr cert which is what you originally wanted
good luck
LM
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George Biddlecombe - Louisa Packer marriage cert.
John Packer - Sarah Humphries marriage cert
Louisa Packer birth cert
All ordered. I'll get back to you.
Dan
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Hopefully the George Bid/Louisa marriage might give us more clues about George too. I cant see a miner in MArylebone - no mines there! And if he was using his mining skills on something else, like digging out for the Underground, he wouldnt call himself a miner, he would call himself something else wouldnt he?
Be interesting to see his occupation at marriage, and his dad's name and occupation too.
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Woohoo, just got the 3 certificates in question.
Details of the marriage of Louisa Packer and George Biddlecombe.
Married 5th Feb 1860 at Trinity church, Grays Inn Road, Middlesex.
He was 32, she was 21.
Georges father is listed as James, a laborer. No mention of a mother.
Lizdb, Louisa Packer was born in Park Lane, Christchurch, Marylebone on 3rd Dec. 1937 although the birth wasn't registered until 2nd Jan. 1838, so that means in the 1851 census she was 13/14, not 19, as listed.
Dan
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and George's occupation on his marriage cert?
and are they spinster/bachelor?
witnesses?
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(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h14/wolfjflywheel/photos/marriagecert.jpg)
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I've found a George Biddlecombe in St Pancras in the 1851 census. Admittedly, he was born in Fordingbridge, Hampshire, but he was a 22 year old soldier at the time. Just abut the right age for the marriage to Louisa and it might explain why they can't be found on some census'.
What site is good for pre WWI military history?
Dan
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Thewhole cert might be removed for copyright reasons.
Before that happens lets note:
Marriage at Trinity Grays Inn Rd. 5th Feb 1860
George age 32 bachelor Miner father is James Biddlecombe labourer
Louisa age 21 spinster no occ father John Packer basket maker
both living Grays Inn Road
witnesses John and Sarah Packer
neither bride nor groom could sign name both "x"'s
So at least it is all comnig together and we have the right basket weaving family ...
But with George describing himself as a Miner in Feb 1860, and still doing so in 1861 census I would be intrigued to know what he was mining!
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Thewhole cert might be removed for copyright reasons.
You're kidding?
Do you know what incident led to this copyright sensetivity Liz, it must be mega?
PS. I'm at my wits end here Liz. I'll entertain any theories at the moment. There's a 12 yr old George Biddlecombe, with father James, an Ag. Lab. at Landford, Wiltshire in 1841. Sounds luvverly to me.
HELP!
Dan
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Just been googling -
According to this
http://www.kxrlg.org.uk/history/timeline.pdf
(you have to scroll down a lot to get to around 1859/60)
the Metropolitan line was started around this time. I reckon George was involved in that, and was really a navvy - but had been a miner up north, and "once a miner always a miner"
If you look through the timeline I sent abovr it mentions Brill Street market and Grays Inn Rd - 2 addresses that the elusive Biddlesombes were at in the short while we have found trace of them!
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Hi 1861 census 4 Canterbury Row Old Kent Road Peckham RG9/385/37
John Packer Head 52 Basket Maker born Sandwich Kent
Sarah Wife 52 ? Kent
Frederick Son 18 Blacksmith ? Kent
John Son 14 " " Camberwell
George Son 9 Camberwell
Jennifer
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Thought I had a straw to clutch at when I found the death of a George Bittlestone of right age (ish) in 1869 in London
But, no, when I checked 1861 there is a perfectrly good george Bittlestone of the right age for the death in the area - so that death will be him, not a mis spelt Biddlecombe ....
will keep thinking!
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Going back a few messages back, what about London Underground Miners, try
Timeline on Wikipedia which lists dates of when these were being dug
Louisa Maud
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This may help:
George Biddlecombes birth place is BLACKWATER that is Hampshire not Lancashire.
Found an IGI for a George Biddlecombe 01 Nov 1829 to JAMES and Charlotte Biddlecombe Frimley, Surrey. Frimley is very close to Blackwater ! Also - try Googling Biddlecombe Frimley and someone else has another son of James and Charlotte who died in Paddington.....and the connection to the Pasterfield info on rootschat
lts
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This is just a longshot also but could this be Louisa in 1881 living at Rose Bank Villa in Yateley Hampshire
Louisa BIDDLE widow age 44 born London,
James R.W. BIDDLE son age 23 born Simla BS, East Indies
Beatrice M. BIDDLE Daur age 18 born St Ives, Huntingdon,
Lilian C. BIDDLE Daur age 14 born Yateley, Huntingdon,
Problem with this is James born before 1860 when they married and George was a bachelor on marriage then. I have found births for Beatrice and Lillian on Free BMD but can't find anything on familysearch.
Looking at Ancestry Index that family with Louisa spelt Louisia maybe in Hampshire in 1871 so can someone look that up and see if it gives any more info such as father's name to prove or disprove. I can't find a George on that index in Hampshire so it may be incorrect family.
Thanks Carmel
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I have info on scores of Biddlecombes on Isle of Wight and US if you are interested.
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Thanks all for your input,
LTSally, I've assumed now that George was from Blackwater in Hants rather than Blackburn in Lancs. It's a very Hampshire name.
By coincidence, I live in Hants, and the local newsagent was called 'Biddles', til it closed down.
Carmel, you may be right with the Yately based family. Earlier, I was researching a George Biddlecombe from Fordingbridge in Hampshire who was in the army. James being born in Simla would point to this and explain their absence from some census'.
Glenn if you have any info on George and Louisa (née Packer), I would love to hear it. All Louisa's birth details are earlier in the thread.
Dan
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Mollyboy - I am supposed to have all Biddlecombe's with vitals on IoW, but only have one George, b 22 Dec 1860, who married an Alice bet 1895 and 1905.
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Thought I'd throw this in the ring to add to the confusion ;D
My 3GGF is the Joseph Packer at Boston Place. On the 1851 census he is shown as a silk weaver but there is a David Packer b Reading aged 32 (so b 1819 ish) as Visitor , trade -weaver. I can't find him before or after. Does he show in anyone elses tree? He presumably is a nephew, as Joseph was married and in Marylebone by 1817. Pete
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Aha - now if Molloyboy has the Holborn marriage cert and can confirm what her dad's name and occupation are, then we may be on to something.
If her dad is Joseph, a silk weaver, then here is her family in 1851 and ... she is called Eliza Louisa here.
HO107 1490 756 54
31 Boston place, Marylebone
Joseph Packer 56 Silk weaver bn Reading Berks
Elizabeth 52 bn middx St George
Henry Alonzo Stewart Packer 13 son bn Marylebone
Eliza Louisa Packer 11 bn Marylebone
David Packer 32 visitor bn Berks Reading
and her birth is
Jan/Feb/MAr 1840
Eliza Louisa Packer
Marylebone 1 181
(and out of interest, brother's birth is
Jan/Feb/Mar 1838
Henry Alonzo Stewart Packer
Bethnal Green 2 217)
Just picked this up trawling the web.
I think there is some confusion over Josephs The one shown on this posting comes from a line of Packers from Reading/Newbury with silk trade links, no Kent or basket making links. Eliza (sometimes Elizabeth ) Loiuise was b Marylebone 4/2/40, bapt St Marys Marylebone 4/6/1840. She married Hy Epton b abt 1845 Lopen Somerset at St Philips Lambeth 15/4/1869 . She has 3 children Walter Hy Packer b Marylebone 29/9/1867 no father shown on bapt cert but by 1871 he is listed as Epton, Frederick Joseph Epton b 5/7/71 Chelsea, Frances Elizabeth b Chelsea 29/6/78 Marylebone with death registered shortly after. Open to any disputes on this but I'm happy with the ascendents / descendants af this famly. I've tried long and hard to find a connection to the Kent Packers with out success other than my GF moving to Sheerness in the early 1900s apparently to find work. There seem to be no links to the other Packers in Sheerness censused in the 1871 or 81 or to the Sittingbourne lot who are again basket makers
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Hi
Don`t know if you are still active on this site.
I have Saunders/Mackett marriage in Carisbrooke
P