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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: cb1964 on Tuesday 03 March 09 18:10 GMT (UK)
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Rootschatters :)
I have posted messages on other boards regarding my Grandfather, but I have a specific question. William James Selwood was born, according to his pension records, on 29 April 1887. On the 1891 & 1901 census he is shown as James Selwood having been born in Thame, Oxon.
I have tried many, many routes to try and find his birth certificate without success. It may well be that his birth was never registered, but he would have had to prove his age when he claimed his pension in 1952.
I have read that sometimes births were registered many years later and that in some cases the GRO indexes are incorrect. Is there any way of tracing late registrations or trying to obtain the original details from the Registrar at Thame (which no longer exists) rather than relying on the GRO index.
I'm really struggling with this one I'm afraid.
Regards
CB1964
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If the birth was registered, then it should be shown as an addendum on the appropriate page of the GRO Index. My grandmother b1872 Cambridge had exactly the same problem when she wanted her pension, no birth certificate, only she said that her birth had been registered and that the registrar at that time was an alcoholic, he would take the fee, tell the illiterate person the birth was registered, and then pocket the fee without issuing a certificate. A nice little earner on the side!More seriously the registers at Thame should have been transferred somewhere when the office closed, and should still be available.
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Hi,
I've had similar problems to this with a couple of people in my family tree, one turned out to have been a housekeeper having her employers children, another was a bigamous relationship!
If this could be the case then your William James is probably registered under his mother's maiden name! ::)
Have you been able to trace his parents deaths? Was William an only child? Have you been able to trace his father through all of the census years?
I spent a small fortune on my bigamous relly's children's certificates, he never did marry wives 2&3! ;)
Good luck
Jan
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Thame RD was abolished 1-10-1932 and the registers transferred to Aylesbury RD and Ploughley & Bullingdon RD. Subseqently transferred to Aylesbury Vale RD and Oxfordshire RD.
Stan
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Thank you all for replying.
Roger, I've checked the appropriate page and no amendments have been made.
Jan, I have traced the parents deaths. William James (or James) was an only child, as far as the census records indicate. I have the father on all the census records back to his birth. The other main problem is I cannot find a marriage cert for the parents of William James. If his birth is registered in his mother's maiden name, I have no way of checking it.
Stan, thanks for the information, much appreciated.
Regards
CB1964
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Unless the mother can be traced back from census records. If so that would narrow maiden names to births in 1887 for Thame.
So to help .... whats was his mother name and where did she give as place of birth for 1891/1901?
It may give a small clue.
Tazzie
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Hi Tazzie
Thanks for replying. The mother is down on the 1891 and 1901 census as Fanny Selwood, wife of James. As I said earlier I cannot find a marriage entry.
On the 1891, Fanny's place of birth if Buckinghamshire, n.k. 1901 it is Bucks, and what looks like Chalvey, which I believe is Upton Cum Chalvey. In 1891 the family are living in Gloucester and Tewkesbury in 1901.
Fanny died in 1903 in Tewkesbury, her name on the death cert is Harriett Frances Selwood.
Any help would be greatfully received.
Regards
CB1964
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Hi all :)
Tazzie - one more problem is Fanny's inconsistent age - she's age 34 in 1891, age 52 in 1901, and her age at death in 1903 seems to be 57!
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..... Hi Tati ..... yep just spotted that one ::)
Tazzie
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Hi Tati & Tazzie,
I never said it was going to be easy, did I? ;D
Regards
CB1964
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Hi
When I was looking last evening I thought I'f found James SELWOOD senior married to an Emma in 1871!
Jan
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I too was wondering if he was the same man Jan - Emma is shown as a "widdow" in 1881.
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Hi Jan & Tati
Just to complete the picture, James (snr) was born James Frederick Selwood in Cheltenham in 1857. He is on the 1861, aged 4, living with his grandparents and his father who is now widowed. In 1871, aged 14, he is living with his sister's family and his grandmother, his father having also died. In both 1861 & 1871 he is living in Cheltenham.
He joined the Navy in 1874 and remained until 1883. On the 1881 census he is having a whale of a time in the Royal Naval Prison in Lewes, serving a 2 year sentence! ;D
What happended to him between 1883 & 1891 is anyone's guess.
Regards
CB1964
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Just dug out a book on the Congregational churches for Thame that I have but not mention.
There are Selwood baptisms in Upton in the same time slot as Harriett's birth and as James was in a navy prison who knows where we could start. I cannot sink a lead on her in 1881 that is positive.
I do not think they have Thame at our library as it's just on the border but willl check when I go at the end of the week.
Tazzie
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Hi Tazzie
I'm convinced James did not meet Fanny until some time after 1883. I'm also not convinced that they were never married but she seemed to have adopted his surname. Who knows what her maiden name may have been?
This is indeed a mystery and one that I feel I am going around in circles with.
Regards
CB1964
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I see that Jill has checked for possible baptisms in Thame and nothing there to give any clues.
So with his track record in the navy he wasn't one for doing things by the book was he ;D
Sorry
Tazzie
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Hi Tazzie
You would have thought our ancestors would have had the foresight to ensure births & marriages were correctly recorded, if only to make our lives easier. Talk about being inconsiderate!
;D
CB1964
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Rootschatters :)
I have tried many, many routes to try and find his birth certificate without success. It may well be that his birth was never registered, but he would have had to prove his age when he claimed his pension in 1952.
Hi,
what was your grandfather's occupation? If he was in one of the forces, you can most certainly get through life without a bith cert
There are many ways to prove your birth age when comes down to claiming the government pension.
My grandfather was born in 1907 and his birth was never registered. He didn't need a birth certificate to get through his later life, or to claim the government pension as he joined the army before the ww2 and spent his whole working life in it .
His army id ,was enough to get him through everyday civilian form filling ID.He died in 1991 and he had two pensions, one the army pension the other the the normal gov pension. He went through his whole life without his birth being registered, he used all of his army ID and that was enough .
Just an extra thought for you
Kind regards
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Hi Cell, thanks for replying.
My grandfather joined the army in 1906 and left early in 1914. He joined the railway soon after but was recalled back into the army as a reservist at the outbreak of the Great War. He served his time and re-joined the railway from 1919 until his retirement in 1952.
His military records do not exist, they were part of the "Burnt Papers". Having spoken to a GWR historian, he would have had to have proof of his age in order to claim his railway pension.
His birth has never been registered as either James or William James Selwood. The birth was not even registered at a much later date. All I can think is that either (1) the birth was never registered and that he proved his age by other means, or (2) the birth was registered in his mother's maiden name and was subsequently altered by some formal means.
Thanks again for your input, much appreciated.
Regards
CB1964
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Looking through Free BMD the only 'Harriet Frances' birth I could see that might relate was of a Harriet Frances Roberts, registered in March 1856 in Buckingham ref 3a-469. It might be worth a hunt around, if only to discount her.
Lesley
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A possibility:
Mum:
Harriet HATWELL Birth Jun 1848 Qtr Henley 16 82 (Age 52 on 1901 census as found by Tati would be correct)
Son:
William James HATWELL Birth Sep 1887 Qtr Thame 3a 754
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Oooh, Kanskar! Exciting find!! :D :D (Must have taken hours!!!)
I think this girl is down as Attwells on the 1851 census:
1851
HO107/1725 275 5
Rotherfield Peppard
Edward Attwells, head, 29, Ag lab, b. Peppard
Sophia, wife, 33, Spendon?
Joseph Smith, son, 8, scholar, b. Gorsing
Harriett Attwells, dau, 3, b. Peppard
Jane, dau, 1, b. do. (birth was registered as Hatwell too)
Elizabeth Smith, lodger, 5, scholar, b. do.
Mary Smith, lodger, 4, b. do.
(marriage Sophia Smith - Edward Attwell Dec 1847 Henley 16 183)
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We seem to have no aspiration to pronounce the aspirate when appropriate, and every haspiration to pronounce it when appropriate. My father, Sydney Harold was shown as Sydney A in the 1901 census. Presumably my grandfather had no Haspirations!
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Hi all, thanks very much for responding and sorry it took so long for me to reply.
Lesley, I had a look at FreeBMD and found Harriet Frances Roberts, Mar 1856 and Harriet Frances Harris, Sept 1864. I traced Harriet Harris through the 1871 & 1881 census's, her marriage to John Overton in 1886. They both appear on the 1891 census, so I have discounted her. I did find Harriet Roberts on the 1861 census, but no luck after that, so she remains a possibility.
Kanskar & Tati, the find of Harriet Hatwell is interesting, although I am uncertain as to link her birth in Henley to what I believe her birthpace is as shown on the 1901 census. If anyone can have a look for me as I believe it reads " Bucks Chalvey" but I suppose it could read as "Bucks Henley" I do not have the reference handy but if anyone could take a look I would be grateful. On the 1901 census, Fanny Selwood is aged 52, living in Tewkesbury with her husband and son , both James.
Thanks once again. You never know, we may solve this one yet!
Regards
CB1964
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I too think it says Chalvey
(but then her details are so all over the place that I'm not sure I'd take it for gospel!)
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Tati
The whole family's details are all over the place, that's the problem. ;D
I feel if I am going to get anywhere with this, it must be based on some tangible evidence, hence why I am trying to tie things back to Chalvey.
Regards
CB1964
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I have had a look at Freebmd, and there are other Hatwell's being registered in Thame Reg Dist in the 1880s. A check of the 1891 census is required, in case the William James I found is theirs.
Cheers
Kanskar