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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: lolaclare on Tuesday 03 March 09 12:26 GMT (UK)
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I have a mysterious ancestor whose name seemed to change half way through his life and I would very much appreciate everyone's advice as I can't seem to figure it out.
The details I have are:
1850 – Marriage Cert – July 17th
James Ashworth Spencer married Mary Ann Walch in Bolton (residence = Egerton)
James’ surname is Spencer but he gives his father’s name as Robert Ashworth
James’ profession is ‘Factory Hand’
1850 – BMD - Oct-Nov-Dec
Son, Eli Spencer born - Bolton
1851 – Census
Mary Ann Spencer living with her family in Egerton with baby Eli
James Spencer lodging in Radcliffe – his profession is ‘Watchman’
1852 – Birth Cert – Sept 27th
Son, John Spencer born, Egerton – his father’s profession is ‘Crofter’
1852 – BMD – Oct-Nov-Dec
Son, Eli Spencer dies - Bolton
THEN
1861 – Census
James ASHWORTH living in Radcliffe with new wife Ellen
Son, John is now called John ASHWORTH
They have a 1 yr old daughter, Betty
James’ new profession is Manufacturing Chemist
1871 – Census
James Spencer Ashworth, Manufacturing Chemist, living in Radcliffe with new wife Mary
Several more children. All, including his wife seem to have the middle initial S (presumably Spencer).
His mother is living with them – she is called Mary ASHWORTH (without the Spencer).
1881 – Census
James S. Ashworth, Manufacturing Chemist Master, living in Radcliffe with another new wife, Margaret. Again, whole family including wife have middle initial S for Spencer.
His son John has a family by this point - they are all called Spencer Ashworth.
1890 - Death Certificate
Name = James Spencer Ashworth
So you see, his surname changes from Spencer to Ashworth between his first and second wives at about the time he moves from the Turton/Egerton area over to Radcliffe and marries his second wife. Could this be to cover up bigamy? I can't find the death of Mary Ann Spencer anywhere but I cannot find her in any later censuses either.
He seems to have been illegitimate as his surname was Spencer but his father's surname was Ashworth on his marriage certificate. However, when his mother is living with him in 1871, her surname is Ashworth, which doesn't make any sense. As he was born in 1832, I cannot get his birth certificate and I can't find the parish records for Turton/Edgworth - a trip to the Bolton record office may be in order.
Also his name change seems to coincide with a change in his fortunes when he goes from fairly lowly jobs to being a manufacturing chemist. His chemical works seems to have been very successful and by the time his son John (who took over the family business) died, the estate was worth the equivalent of nearly £2 million when translated into today's money.
His children, grandchildren, etc. all kept Spencer as a middle name and some relatives are still called Spencer Ashworth today - but no one seems to know why.
So there you go! Any theories as to what happened here will be very welcome! Bigamy? Illegitimacy? Maybe his father left him some money to set up his business on the condition that he changed his name to Ashworth. But could you just change your name willy-nilly in those days or would you have to do it officially?
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Just to check something with you, on any of James' marriage certificates, was his father always Robert Ashworth and was 'dyer' his occupation?
Fiona
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I give you one explanation:
Born outside wedlock and is therefore christened Spencer with Ashworth as a middle name
Mother then married father so family name becomes Ashworth. The names Spencer and Ashworth are now interchangable.
As his wives died?? have you looked for deaths with both surnames?
Rog
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Factory Hand/ Watchman/Crofter to Manufacturing Chemist seems a bit of a leap - I wonder if you are looking at two different families?
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Completely off the topic in a way ;)
But if you search Freebmd for Spencer marrying Ashworth( with no first names) in Lancs. you get an unbelievably large no.
Blew me away ;D ;D
Trish
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Just to check something with you, on any of James' marriage certificates, was his father always Robert Ashworth and was 'dyer' his occupation?
Fiona
I only have one marriage certificate - the marriage to his first wife Mary Ann Walch. Yes, his father's name is given as Robert Ashworth and the father's occupation is Dyer. There is a word before Dyer that looks like it may be Mather?
In Radcliffe library, I found the marriage between him (now with the surname Ashworth) and his second wife in the parish register and there it again gives his father as Robert Ashworth, Dyer.
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Factory Hand/ Watchman/Crofter to Manufacturing Chemist seems a bit of a leap - I wonder if you are looking at two different families?
I wondered that too. For a while I thought James Ashworth Spencer and James Spencer Ashworth might be two different people coincidentally born in about the same year in Turton.
But I went to see (his son) John Spencer Ashworth's grave a few weeks ago and he shares the same exact birth date and birth place with the John Spencer who was the son of James Ashworth Spencer and Mary Ann Spencer.
Does anyone know if any training or education was required to be a manufacturing chemist?
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I give you one explanation:
Born outside wedlock and is therefore christened Spencer with Ashworth as a middle name
Mother then married father so family name becomes Ashworth. The names Spencer and Ashworth are now interchangable.
As his wives died?? have you looked for deaths with both surnames?
Rog
I guess that's a possibility. But I can't find any evidence of his mother before her appearance in the 1871 census.
Here is the 1871 household:
James Spencer Ashworth / Head / Mar / 39 / Manufacturing Chemist Employing 2 men / born Edgworth
Mary S. " / Wife / Mar / 29 / / born Radcliffe
John S. " / Son / Unmar / 18 / Assistant Chemist / born Egerton
Betsy S. " / Daur / Unmar / 11 / Scholar / born Radcliffe
Robert S. " / Son / __ / 4 / __ / born Radcliffe
Mary S. " / Daur / __ / 1 / / born Radcliffe
Mary " / Mother / __ / 77 / / born Pilkington
It seems to say she's unmarried as it just has a line in that column. I can't for the life of me find a suitable Mary Spencer or Mary Ashworth in any other census who matches up with the details here.
But she's born in Pilkington so she comes from near Radcliffe, not near Turton/Edgworth.
I have just assumed that his wifes died between the censuses because Ashworth is a fairly common surname and it has been hard to identify their death records in the BMD.
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If Robert Ashworth was a dyer, then I reckon I have the family in 1841 as follows in Tabitha Road/Row/Fold (difficult to read) and there baptisms from the Lancs OPC:
Robert Ashworth 40 Dyer
Mary 40
Ann 20 bapt. 6 June 1819 born 16 Mar 1819 abode Pilsworth occ. Dyer
John 15 29 Dec 1822 15 Oct 1822 Whitefield Dyer
Margaret 15 22 May 1825 21 Feb 1825 Unsworth Dyer
Martha 13 26 Aug 1827 26 July 1827 Whitefield Dyer
Mary 12 2 Aug 1829 17 May 1829 Whitefield Dyer
James 10 22 Apr 1832 21 Jan 1832 Whitefield Dyer
Thomas 6
Lewes (Lewis?) 1
Now, the baptisms were all at St Mary the Virgin, the parish church for Prestwich - a couple of miles south of Radcliffe and Whitefield is inbetween. It does look as if the family moved around this small area a fair bit for work but were consistent about where they were baptised. Thomas and Lewis were not baptised there although Prestwich is complete for the period. The OPC hasn't yet got to Radcliffe yet, and there are no credible baptisms in Turton and Edgworth wasn't a parish I think. On the IGI though there is a baptism to other parents and I wonder if Thomas and Lewis were orphaned nephews?
Also there is a marriage for Robert Ashworth and Mary Raynor both of Whitefield on 20 Mar 1818 at St Mary Prestwich, and a daughter not mentioned on census: Sarah baptised 10 June 1821, born 21 August, abode Whitefield, occupation Dyer.
There is also a baptism for Robert Ashworth to George and Sarah Ashwroth in 1795 - no other details, and an earlier marriage of George Ashworth to Sarah Isherwood.
The Spencer part of your problem is still mysterious though. I think it is significant that it occurs only in connection with his first marriage, and may have been to do with how he met and wed Mary Ann. I don't think swapping Ashworth for Spencer was the issue as it occurs before his later marriages. (There is a death on freebmd for Mary Ann Ashworth in 1853 you could pursue.) In my experience some extra names occur right out of the blue - maybe a god parent or good family friend when he was born as they don't always make it to birth and baptism records. I wonder if he had got a job as James Spencer where he met Mary Ann, and the fib just continued - especially as their marriage is somewhat close to poor Eli's birth and they were very young. I think it's probably something that started out innocently enough...
On the occupation front for James on the censuses, he seems to have grown his business. He doesn't have servants or anything until later on, and then not in his home if I recall. Nor do his neighbours who are also not wealthy at all. I wonder if it's something he got into with his wife Ellen and her family, and he had a gift for growing the business. It was a sound, but modest business?
I hope that helps
Fiona
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Thanks for all that info, Fiona. I have come across that family before when trawling through the censuses. But I discounted it because the James in this family was baptised in Prestwich whereas James Spencer Ashworth consistantly said he was born in Turton or Edgworth. Do you think it is possible that he was born there but christened in Prestwich? There were a couple of months between birth and baptism.
The fact that he went on to marry Mary Ann Walch who lived near Turton led me to believe that he had been born there and had grown up there until moving over to Radcliffe in his 20s. Maybe it is more complicated than that.
If we assume that the Tabitha Fold family are the right family, they must have had some strong links to the Turton area for James to have been born there and for him to have been back there in 1850 to marry Mary Ann Walch and have 2 children born there. Maybe they had relatives living there... I'll have a look at the people living there in 1841 and see if I can link them to Robert Ashworth or Mary Raynor.
One interesting thing to note is that a prominent family living in Turton at the time were called Spencer. They seem to be vicars of the parish church. Maybe James Ashworth took on their surname for some reason.
Incumbents of Turton:
1761~1815 - Amos Ogden L.L.B., C.L. (Catherine Hall, Cambridge)
1815~1859 - James Spencer (son-in-law to Amos)....was previously curate to the Duke of Wellington
1859~1879 - James Ogden King Spencer (son of James)
1879~1899 - John William Spencer M.A. (St. John's College, Cambridge)
1899~1904 (brother to J.O.K. Spencer, younger son of James
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Does anyone know if any training or education was required to be a manufacturing chemist?
This is an interesting Australian site with a section on Chemist's qualifications relating to the UK:-
http://www.psa.org.au/site.php?id=773
Quoting from the site -
'By the mid 19th century 'pure' scientific chemists had their own Royal Society of Chemistry. The Society was formed in 1841. Apparently under the 1868 Pharmacy Act, the term chemist and druggist was used by the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain to denote those who had passed its minor examination, thus meeting the minimum requirement to register as a pharmacist. Commercial chemical and drug merchants not involved with the dispensing or the sale of scheduled poisons were not required to register with the Society, and continued to trade after 1868. Legally they could no longer use the title chemist and druggist'. The title master druggist (as in the trade terms master builder, master baker etc.), was occasionally used by both qualified and unqualified chemists and druggists.'
So I suppose James may, or may not have had training.
Maggie
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Hi Clare
Yup, I think it's very very possible he was actually born in Turton or Edgworth but baptised in Prestwich. And I think a vicar/rector would be a jolly good person to be named after. Maybe one of them helped Robert to find work in Radcliffe around the time of his birth and after Whitefield had dried up? I wonder also if a Spencer relative had a business in the area that James was apprenticed to and that was when he acquired the Spencer bit? Maybe he ran away from home and they put him up? Certainly he couldn't abandon the Spencer bit after Mary Ann's death - because of his son John.
To me it's the fact that Tabitha Fold is in Radcliffe and I was going with the consistent Radcliffe connection (which seems stronger than Turton/Edgworth) and the fact that Whitefield is on the main road between Radcliffe and Prestwich. Actually Radcliffe's rectory is just up the road and mentioned on the same 1841 page as Robert and Mary & family - you could see if there is an incumbant Spencer connection to this parish too - and Prestwich! I think Prestwich was probably Roberts 'home' territory to which he felt a strong family connection, (keeping his roots in tact) and as you say would explain the time lags. When Ann was baptised, they were living in Pilsworth and when Martha was baptised they were in Unsworth, yet traipsed to Prestwich when there were much closer churches - not least, Bury.
I think you really need to explore each member of the 1841 family of Ashworths quite carefully, and maybe see what they put for their places of birth in later censuses. btw who were the witnesses at James' marriage to Mary Ann? And see what that death cert for Mary Ann Ashworth is all about...
Let me know how you get on
Fiona
PS apropos Maggie's info, I'm re-reading Middlemarch at the moment and Dr Lydgate's - the radical one - is keen on the separation of drug supplier and doctor, rather than doctors making up and selling their own concoctions! A whole new ethics on the chemistry front!
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btw who were the witnesses at James' marriage to Mary Ann?
Just trying to decipher the witnesses from the marriage cert... they look like Phoebe Lemon and William Haslam. James A. S. and Mary Ann were married at the Maudsley Street Independent Chapel in Bolton and the ceremony was performed by Anthony Bateson who I think was the congregationalist minister from Egerton.
He seems to be lying on the marriage cert about his age as he would have been 18 at the time but he says he was 21. Do you think this was so he could marry without his father's permission? Maybe he did run away and was estranged from his family at this point.
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I think you really need to explore each member of the 1841 family of Ashworths quite carefully, and maybe see what they put for their places of birth in later censuses.
I have started to do this and have come across something quite strange and Spencer-related!
I looked for the oldest Ashworth brother John in later censuses and although I couldn't find him in 1851, I found this family in the other censuses that looks like the right one:
1861 - Potters Row, Radcliffe
John Ashworth Head Mar 38 Dyer Lancs, Radcliffe
Ann Wife Mar 36 _ Lancs Radcliffe
Robert Son Un 17 Dyer of Cotton Lancs, Radcliffe
Mary Ann Daur Un 12 _ Lancs, Radcliffe
Sarah Daur Un 6 _ Lancs, Radcliffe
Thomas Son Un 2 _ Lancs, Radcliffe
1871 – Back Chapel, Radcliffe
John Ashworth Head Mar 48 Farm Labourer Lancs, Pilkington
Ann Wife Mar 47 _ Lancs Radcliffe
Mary Ann Daur Un 22 Cotton Weaver Lancs, Radcliffe
Sarah Daur Un 16 Cotton Weaver Lancs, Radcliffe
Thomas Son Un 12 Scholar Lancs, Radcliffe
1881 – Bowker? Road, Radcliffe
John Ashworth Head Mar 58 Chemical Labourer (unemployed) Lancs, Blackford Bridge
Ann Wife Mar 57 _ Lancs Radcliffe
Sarah Daur Un 26 Cotton Weaver Lancs, Radcliffe
Thomas Son Un 22 Stamp Maker Lancs, Radcliffe
I was puzzled as to why I couldn't find them in 1851 as they would already be married by then and their elder two children Robert and Mary Ann would be 7 and 2. Then I think I found them:
1851 – Radcliffe Hall, Radcliffe
John Spencer Head Mar 28 Dyer Lancs, Radcliffe
Ann Wife Mar 26 _ Lancs Radcliffe
Robert Son Un 7 Scholar Lancs, Radcliffe
Mary Ann Daur Un 2 _ Lancs, Radcliffe
Alice Hughes Visitor Mar 25 Weaver Lancs, Radcliffe
Mary Mitchell Hughes Visitor Daur Un 1 Lancs, Little Bolton
Now, am I going crazy or does this look like the same family??? And they are called Spencer.
This is the same census where my ancestor James is living in Radcliffe and calling himself Spencer before changing to Ashworth in 1861.
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I think that the across-the-board use of the "S" indicates a sort of hyphenated use, which the enumerator has contracted on his sheet.
Whether events get filed under Ashworth, Spencer or Spencer-Ashworth would probably be random.
I've a feeling that there might be quite a bit of cash spent on certs before this is over!
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Gosh Clare! That was unexpected.
The 1851 census entry for John & family looks very likely to me. I had been thinking that as James was a factory hand that maybe he ran away from an apprenticeship in Radcliffe and changed his name to hide himself. The master person would have had a legal right to pursue him. I don't know if parental permission was actually required, but a non-marriage clause would have been part of an apprenticeship agreement.
As Andrew indicates you've got a lot of hard-graft research ahead, and some expenditure on certificates - I think you have to look into John's family. Were his children registered as Spencer or Ashworth too? I don't have any new insights. Although two enumerators' shorthand might be responsible for two census errors ie James and John the elder, it doesn't explain the marriage certificate really. And just around this 1850-51 time. Something happened between 1841 and the mid-1850s? Both are living in the area where they were brought up so they can't be hiding as such, loads of people would know who they were. A pity there isn't much of Radcliffe's historical docs transcribed on the web.
The marriage witnesses don't really reveal anything, although it might be interesting to know whether any other members of James' or Mary Ann's families were also part of that church.
O yes, and I did think it was interesting that John the elder put Pilkington on one of the censuses as his birth place - even further away than Turton!
We await your findings with baited breath...
Fiona
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On Genuki, it says that Pilkington is 'a township in Prestwich parish' which 'is cut into the three sections of Outwood, Unsworth, and Whitefield or Stand' and 'contains the hamlets of Ringley, Cinderhill, Blackford, and Hollins'. So it kind of makes sense that John Ashworth the elder says he was born there.
In 1871, James S. Ashworth's mother is living with him and she gives her place of birth as 'Pilkington'.
I've managed to trace the sister, Martha Ashworth. She married a man called Edward Fearnly in Bolton in 1846. She gives her birth place variously as Radcliffe (1851), Pilkington (1861), Whitefield (1871), Blackford Bridge (1881) and Prestwich (1901).
In 1861, her mother Mary Ashworth is living with her. Mary Ashworth is down on that census as being 68 and born in Ringley, which does fit with James S. Ashworth's mother in 1871.
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Ok, now this is very strange. I think I’ve found mother Mary and younger brother Thomas in 1851 living in Turton and called Spencer.
The household is:
Mary Spencer Head Widow 49 Lancs, P? L?
Thomas Spencer Son Unmar 17 ? Pucker (cotton) Lancs, Turton
Eden Shepherd Son in law Marr 24 Stretcher Bucks, Bledow
I at first dismissed them because although Thomas was the right age, Mary’s age is slightly off what it should be. But her ages vary quite a lot. In 1841 she was 40, in 1861 she was 68 and in 1871 she was 77.
Just to be certain, I checked to see who Eden Shepherd married. And low and behold, I found the marriage between Mary Ashworth and Eden Shepherd in 1848. So his mother in law must be Mary Ashworth!
It makes sense for Thomas Spencer/Ashworth to be born in Turton as he was born just a couple of years after James.
What I cannot understand is why the whole family seem to be called Spencer around 1851??? They were all Ashworth in 1841 and all seem to be back to Ashworth by 1861. They were definitely calling themselves Ashworth as late as 1848 when Mary married Eden Shepherd. And they were calling themselves Spencer as early as 1850 when James married Mary Ann Walch. The latest reference to their last name being Spencer is in 1852 when James’ son John is born.
Can anyone decipher Mary Spencer’s place of birth from this census?
I think I have also found Eden's wife Mary Shepherd visiting a Taylor family in Radcliffe. The wife of the family she is visiting is called Margaret and was born in Pilkington and could possibly be her sister Margaret Ashworth. They are 2 doors down on the same street as James Spencer.
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Only one thought at the moment: could Mary the mother have remarried after Robert's death to someone called Spencer who also died before 1851 and the whole family thought they should be called Spencer?
Fiona
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Hello,
I am James Spencer Ashworth's great great grandson. If 'lolaclare' would like to contact me, by sending a private message, I may be able to help or not as the case may be!
thanks
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Hello,
I am James Spencer Ashworth's great great grandson. If 'lolaclare' would like to contact me, by sending a private message, I may be able to help or not as the case may be!
thanks
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Hello,
I am James Spencer Ashworth's great great grandson. If 'lolaclare' would like to contact me, by sending a private message, I may be able to help or not as the case may be!
thanks
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A look at the wills of the various REv. Spencer might be the key. It was not uncommon in the 19th century for bequests be conditional on the recipient changing their surname to that of the testator in order to inherit.
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A Joseph Noble appears on marriage in Great Harwood as chymist, but on the next census he was "labourer at dye works". A John Broadley appeared in his father's will as chemist of Calderbrook and seems to have been in charge of a mill, so perhaps chemist had a wide application as apparently confectioner did, claytonbradley
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.