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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (West Riding) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: alancutts on Saturday 28 February 09 07:33 GMT (UK)
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g'day
am looking for info on a Anne Swallow born Holmfirth 1856c supposed to have married a John Muskett at Saddleworth in 1877.marraige 9a 425 free bmd.
I am looking to trace her family back down through the census stages .
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeas!!!!!!!
Kind Regards Alan
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Hello Alan,
at first nothing much shows up which could be definite and you would really need to have the marriage certificate details to see if there was a father named.
However, after a bit of searching- there is this:
1861 RG9; Piece: 3242; Folio: 67; Page: 26
Midgehall Saddleworth
Joseph Swallow 35 yrs Woollen weaver b Yorks Scholes
Martha 32 yrs b Yorks Underbank
Ellen 11 yrs Cotton carder b Underbank
Mary A 7 yrs scholar b Scholes
Ann 5 yrs Scholar b Scholes
Hannah 1 yr b Scholes
Scholes is near to Holmfirth and this would fit in with the marriage in Saddleworth.
I will check the other censuses
best wishes
heywood
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1871 RG10; Piece: 4349; Folio: 39; Page: 8
Cinderhills, Wooldale, Holmfirth
Joseph Swallow 45 yrs woollen weaver b Wooldale
Martha 41 yrs b Cartworth
Ellen 22 yrs daur Piece Notter
Adelaide grandaughter 4 months
Mary S daur 17 yrs Piece Knotter
Ann 15 yr -do-
Anne Jane daur 5 yrs
John frederick son 1 months
children all born Wooldale
1881 RG11; Piece: 4558; Folio: 8; Page: 10
Martha now a widow (no Ann so looks favourable) living in Mirfield
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This looks like Joseph in 1851
1851 HO107; Piece: 2292; Folio: 544; Page: 34
Hey Gap Wooldale
Martha Swallow head widow washerwoman
Joseph son 24 yrs Stone Del..er (could be Bel..er)
Samuel son 18 yrs Woollen S..
Sarah Ann son 16 yrs Woollen carder
George son 14 yrs Woollen Piecer
all born Wooldale
a couple of entries above there is a Martha Swallow Hallas b 1778 - possibly a relation (a schoolmistress)
As I said at the beginning, more evidence is needed to confirm that these are the ones you want
good luck
heywood
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I am a bit bothered because Ellen b c 1850 should be around in 1851 and I can't see her ???
There is a marriage 1848 for a Joseph Swallow- possibly Martha Roebuck but both these people seem to be single in 1851 :-X However they may not be the spouses in that marriage list.
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heywood g'day
thank you for your help I think the wooldale looks the most likely if you have access to the census could you see if the wooldale family have a Buckley family(surname) on any of the same street etc?????? John and Ann's son Wright Muskett married a Betty Buckley and I am almost positive they would be from the same area (almost).
its almost like a verification without spending any cert money, (which I cant anyway.
Thank you again
Kind Regards Alan
Sydney Australia
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Yes I saw Wright Muskett this morning.
Your Musketts were originally from the Warrington area. (There is a Wright Muskett in 1841 with a father and also a brother John so the names seem to be family based.) Your John's father was William I think.
The Swallows were from Holmfirth area.
Buckley is a Saddleworth name.
1861 RG9; Piece: 2794; Folio: 13; Page: 20
John is with parents William and Elizabeth in Warrington
I can't find him in 1871 but his mother is still in Warrington.
So at some time he moves to Saddleworth.
1881 RG11; Piece: 4364; Folio: 120; Page: 5 (Free to view)
John an Ann are in Wool road in the Dobcross area of Saddleworth
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1891 RG12; Piece: 3551; Folio 89; Page 11
Wright, aged 8 yrs and the family are in the Co-op Houses (next to the Coperative Store) in Dobcross
1901 RG13; Piece: 4090; Folio: 89; Page: 2
The family are still in Dobcross
1901 has 6 Betty Buckleys but only 1 born around same time- 1884
1901 RG13; Piece: 4088; Folio: 145; Page: 7
Ann Buckley widow 49 yrs woollen twister
Thirza 17 rys woollen weaver
Betty 17 yrs woollen twister
Tom T 15 yrs brakeman waterworks
Clara A 10 yrs
Clarence 8 yrs
all born Saddleworth
Delph is the next village to Dobcross
Now all this is providing it is the right Betty and that she's not somewhere as Elizabeth or similar.
Have just looked the marriage up at Lancashire BMD - it will be the right Betty I think. They got married at Friarmere St Thomas and that's the right area!
Incidentally that church which is not in use now, can be googled - a bit of history and has been used in a couple of films/tv. It's a lovely spot!
As stated earlier, you would have to verify the Swallow details -Wooldale/Holmfirth is some distance away.
Just had a thought :o :o :o John and Ann' s marriage is on Lancashire BMD- Dobcross Holy Trinity and 1877 will be in local library. If you want I can pop along next week and see if I can find the marriage in the parish records to see if it mentions Ann's father- if that helps.
I feel as though this has been one long ramble!
heywood
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g'day Heywood
thank you again for your trouble,
if you will be going to that place as a normal trip then please do for me, but dont go out of your way just to get an answer to the dads name, I do this search this way because I cant justify to my wife (who budgets dilligently)
any extra expense its enough for me to be able to pay for my broadband and I think thats just to keep me out of mischief and out of her hair!!!!!
all this info goes straight into a file because I have a case of lost memory from a work accident a long time back I only fell into Gemeology because of my search for memory joggers and havent looked back since
plus finding your quality of people on the geaneology circuit reinforces my belief in the human race.
Yours Sincerely Alan Cutts Sydney
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I'm NOT convinced that the SWALLOWs are the Wooldale family.
I have transcripts for All Hallows, Kirkburton which includes Scholes and surrounding areas.
I looked for your Joseph SWALLOW bn ab 1826 and here is what I've found -
CANDIDATE 1
The Joseph that Heywood found.
Joseph SWALLOW
born 22/05/1826
bap 20/08/1826
father Joseph
mother Martha
abode Cartworth
father's occ Clothier
Looking at the baptisms for the other children that Heywood found in 1851, this Joseph belongs to that family. The rest of the children are baptised from Holmfirth and then the last one from Almondbury. In 1841 they are Woodale.
OR
CANDIDATE 2
Joseph SWALLOW
born 02/03/1826
bap 11/06/1826
father John
mother Mary
abode Scholes
father's occ Clothier
This is most interesting! This Joseph is from Scholes and in 1841 the family are living in Scholes -
Scholes, Yorkshire - HO107/1277/1/8/9
John SWALLOW 50 Woollen Weaver
Mary SWALLOW 45
Jonn SWALLOW 15 Woollen Weaver
Joseph SWALLOW 15 Woollen Weaver
Alfred SWALLOW 1
Ann SWALLOW 5
All born in County
In 1851 this family are still living in Scholes but Joseph is not with them -
Scholes Moor, Yorkshire - HO107/2293/198/10
John SWALLOW 60 Labourer Fulstone, Yorks
Mary SWALLOW 54 Netherthong, Yorks
Alfred SWALLOW 21 Woollen Weaver Fulstone, Yorks
Ann SWALLOW 15 Woollen Weaver Fulstone, Yorks
Joseph TAYLOR 40 Woollen Weaver Meltham, Yorks
I still can't find him in 1851 though :(
I personally think this Joseph is more likely to be the one but I could be wrong of course. I can send all the baptism details for the other children etc or I can look up more baptisms etc if you want.
~ Claire
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Thanks for that Claire- it is difficult because the family give different places of birth all in same area at different times. I think Cartworth influenced me.
It does need further confirmation.
I have had to reread the thread to catch up- isn't it amazing how in one day you can forget everything ::) (old age creeping on)
I will go to the library at some time - it's only a bus ride to town to see if there are clues re the family. Unfortunately, some records give very little info.
What do you think about the 1861 family living in Saddleworth but returning to Holmfirth- that is the first time we see Ann.
Now 1861 has the Joseph I have already quoted in Saddleworth with daughter Ann.
There are also these Claire which you might be able to place:
1) 1861 RG9; Piece: 3251; Folio: 162; Page: 11
Fieldsheads Hepworth
Joseph Swallow 33 yrs Wool handloom weaver b Kirkburton
wife Mary, children Joe and Jane all born Kirkburton.
The entry above is for a James (61 yrs) and Mary Swallow and the entry below John Swallow (36 yrs) and family.
accounted for in 1851 HO107; Piece: 2293; Folio: 90; Page: 5
2) 1861 RG9; Piece: 3456; Folio: 28; Page: 17;
Joseph Swallow 33 yrs born Holmfirth with wife Harriet. He is a miner nr Barnsley ???
3) 1861 RG9; Piece: 3251; Folio: 89; Page: 30
Joseph Swallow 38 yrs b Cartworth wife Edna and a host of children living in Wooldale- he is a fulling miller.
accounted for in 1851 HO107; Piece: 2293; Folio: 4; Page: 1 (he is born Austonley)
1851 also has one born Thurlstone c 1828.
Aaagghhh! :'( :'( :'(
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I was trying to eliminate one or other Josephs for 1851.
Your Joseph should be with Martha and Ellen by then :-\
The Joseph I found still seems to be at home with mother Martha :(
Yesterday I looked Martha Roebuck up in 1841- who may be the wife- and found a seemingly rather sad one living at Hinchliff Mill? Kirk Burton aged 10 yrs with a Sarah Earnshaw 43 yrs.
What do you think of this one Claire?
Do you have marriages Claire- or even a baptism for Ellen?
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I do think the family are the same ones that move over to Saddlworth then back to the Huddersfield area.
The other Josephs
There are these Josephs baptised at Kirkburton at around the same time -
Joseph bap 18/04/1824 son of Jerry & Sarah of Oxley
Joseph bap 02/03/1826 son of John & Mary of Scholes
Joseph bap 22/05/1826 son of Joseph & Martha of Cartworth
I've not got access to the records for the surrounding non-conformist churches.
Martha ROEBUCK
The 10 year old living with Sarah EARNSHAW does appear to be the only one that fits. There's a possible baptism for this Martha but the details don't all add up (Hepworth/Cartworth) ???
Martha ROEBUCK
born 26/07/1832
bap 16/09/1832
father Dan
mother Mary
abode Barnside, Hepworth
father occ Clothier
Dan, Mary (nee CHARLESWORTH) and the rest of the children (checked against the PRs) are living in Hepworth in 1841 with a Martha ROEBUCK (80) who could possibly be Dan's mother. Their daughter Martha is missing. I've checked if there are any burials I can see that would explain a missing Martha in Dan's family but I can't find any so she could possibly be the one in Cartworth. Dan and Mary are in Hepworth in 1851 with Mary giving her birthplace as "Fulstone" which brings us back round again!! I can pursue it further if necessary.
I do have marriages but not past 1837 for Kirkburton so I can't look up Joseph or Martha's parents unfortunately, though I could look at marriages for their parents of course. I don't have a baptism for Ellen because again my records for Kirkburton stop at 1837.
~ Claire
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Thanks Claire.
It may be that Alan will have to stop with Joseph and Martha. Oldham records (Saddleworth) won't help much I don't think other than confirming what is already known re Ann.
Kath
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You could very well be right.
We tried!
~ C
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g'day Heywood and Brer
getting to be interesting hey!!
it will take me a while to analyse all the detail I think!!!
thank you ahead of time for the bus trip heywood I am taken aback with your generosity.
there are a couple of clues emerging to help verify who is who,the occupation of Stone Mason is one including stone deliverer, the two Joseph's are actually one of the same but i think baps and deaths will clear up some anomalies because it looks like once a child died a later child is name the same .
plus I only now realize why your rootschat tag is Heywood Duh!!!! once I had a look at that beautiful area, my Mam was born in Slaithwaite and I have just found a site with a fantastic picture, Oh to win the lottery and come and have a look see.
Your Sincerely
Alan Cutts
ps Brer one of my line married a William Allen of Chorlton b 1869 married in 1893 Salford?????
Alan
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g'day
just had a thought,
I have lost sight of my original quest, I 1st went looking for the birth and census of Ann Swallow that married a John Muskett in 1877 i think about 9 Annes came up in my search but all of them had married a Miles Beaumont in 1873 and all the Annes were from Holmfirth so I then went looking for Swallows elsewhere and via rootschat found the one born in Wooldale in 1856 the other were all born 55 or 57 so the wooldale one fits , now on the free bdm looking for her birth we either get nothing or Ann swallows up to the neck so I have had to look elsewhere to find out anything hence my plea for help in this thread.
one of the muskett boys ends up a stone mason so maybe there is a link there hey, at the present I think the wooldale joseph as the dads family fits
so I might go on from there hey!!!!!!!
Thank You again for your help and I hope you are successfull when you do get to the library please feel free to mail me again after you have been success or not!!!!
Yours Sincerely
Alan
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Alan, just my penny worth, i went to school in Hepworth,1942-48, there was a Swallow family in Hepworth at the time, i recall two sons, Laurie, & Jack, both similar age to me, ie b. 1935/40, so possible connection ?
Tony( aka, bodger)
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It's when you start to go back from Ann and to Joseph that the problems start....though I do still think it's more likely to be the one in Scholes.
~ Claire
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Hi Alan,
just to say that my name is heywood because my gt gt grandfather came from Suffolk to Heywood Lancs then my great grandfather moved he family to Oldham area. However, my photo is of the Irish side (dad's) but I understand where you're coming from. We are not too far from Saddleworth which like Slaithwaite area can be quite spectacular - we often don't realise how beautiful our own doorstep is!
Kath
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well Alan and Claire - what a turn up after the visit to the library- on the wrong track altogether :'( :o ??? But hopefully will be sorted :P
Here are the parish records:
Very smudged and copied so that the record on the back was showing :-\
December 24th 1877 Holy Trinity Church Dobcross
John Muskett full age bachelor Woodhead Dobcross father William Muskett Glass blower
Ann Swallow full age spinster Dobcross father George Swallow clothier
John signed the register and Ann made her mark.
Witnesses Dick Sw... (looks like Swallow but a big smudge on top) and ?? possibly Schofield but not sure there!
This was a bonus as I didn't think they had 1905 marriages
August 5th 1905 St Thomas Friarmere
Wright Muskett 23 yrs bachelor Spinner Dobcross father John Muskett Blacksmith
Betty Buckley 22 yrs Spinster Delph father James Buckley Stone Mason
witnesses charles Buckley and Thirza Buckley
bride and groom signed own names.
Baptism St Thomas Friarmere
July 23rd 1883
Thirza Buckley
Betty -do- twin daughters parents James and Ann Buckley Woodhouse Knowl
(James is a mason)
earlier that year
17th February 1883
Sarah Margaret 3 yrs
Edith Marian 2 yrs
same parents
(must have been catching up!)
So the Buckley family is the right one even though James is not shown as deceased on the marriage record - quite a common thing that the death isn't noted.
Now for Ann with father George- I will do another post ;D
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I'm going to follow this family and see ::)
1861 RG9; Piece: 3251; Folio: 104; Page: 15
Tailors Terrace Wooldale
George Swallow 36 yrs Woola hand loom weaver b Cartworth
Hannah 35 yrs Wool handloom weaver b Foolstone
Eli 17 yrs Wool hand loom weaver b Wooldale
Maria 12 yrs b Foolstone
Elenor 10 yrs b Foolstone
Joe 8 yrs b Foolstone
Ann 6 yrs b Wooldale
Dick 4 yrs b Wooldale
Joshua Battye visitor 11 months b Foolstone
1871 RG10; Piece: 4337; Folio: 13; Page: 22
this family are living in Dobcross ;D
Ann is there 16 yrs but has been transcribed as Sam - so that is why we couldn't find her!
Oh I feel so much better now!
1881 RG11; Piece: 4364; Folio: 121; Page: 8
George, Hannah and Eliza are living in Wool Road Dobcross. :D
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A bit more revealed here:
1851 HO107; Piece: 2293; Folio: 163; Page: 29
Woodbottom Fulstone
George Swallow 28 yrs weaver (woollen)
Hannah Swallow 26 yrs
Eli Battye son 7 yrs
Mariah Swallow daur 2 yrs
Eliniah Swallow daur 11 months
all born Fulstone
Free BMD marriage: 1844
Hannah Battye and George Swallow among the spouses.
Claire you might be able to give more info but I'd say now that we have the right family ;) (fingers crossed)
It's strange Alan - my aunt (long gone now) had a very dear friend who married a Joe Swallow with a son Dick (all long gone now) from that area. No-one to ask though re any confirmation!
If you need any other info when you have collated all this and committed it to memory ;D - please just ask.
best wishes
Kath
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George SWALLOW
birth 24/06/1822
bap 11/08/1822
father Joseph
mother Ann
abode Scholes
father occ Clothier
There are other baptisms for the siblings of George if you want me to send them?
There is a possible marriage for Joseph and Ann here -
All Hallows, Kirkburton, Yorkshire
Joseph SWALLOW m Ann BROADHEAD on 14/09/1821 - BOTP
If we assume that Joseph was about 25 when he married here are the most likely suspects for a baptism are -
Joseph SWALLOW
bap 27/04/1794
father John
abode Scholes
Joseph SWALLOW
bap 18/04/1796
father Joshua
mother -
abode Hepshaw, Holmfirth
Hope this helps and bravo to Heywood for getting the info and figuring out the puzzle!! (and for living near Saddleworth too)
~ Claire
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That was so lucky- otherwise who knows... just shows you need the certificates!
Trust a Joseph to get in there after all ;D
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g'day heywood and Brer
there are a lot of ways to say thank you for your effort and then Wow you come up with a whole lot of verified info from the library, thanks for taking the trip and the effort again,
You know that i have had the same feeling by helping out others on my single name site (Cutts) and have helped a lot over the years because I have had a marraige list into the 100's plus I know that a few of the people I have helped forgot to say thanks so I may sound like a hatfull of plattitudes but I am sincere.
just to keep your days bright, today was 37 deg c which 90 odd deg f clear skies a lot of roses opened up today and we have had a tiny bit of humidity
one of those days we like to remember, while Queensland is 60% flooded
and half of Victoria is under bushfire flames.
Thank You Again
Kind Regards Alan
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You're welcome Alan!
My relatives are some of those evacuated in Melbourne - not nice!
Remember to give me a shout if you want any siblings of George etc.
;D
~ C
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You're welcome and glad that we sorted it properly!
best wishes
heywood
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Ey Up Matey
I am an Ex Marsden lad and I am now in New Zealand one of my brothers lives in Australia and we can both tell you (he did work and told me):-
John Muskett (two thumbs) (born 1857) Married Ann Swallow (1856) he was a mill black smith. One of their children was a son John (called Jack 1880 ) and also a son called Arthur(1888) he was our grandad.
We have a snap John stood outside his house with his wife and his son John on a war horse ready to go to Boer War.
John's father was William and was born in 1811.
If you want I will send you the snap.
cheers
John Muskett
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g'day John
Wonderfull to hear from you,
I have actually been able to verify some of the detail you have written of and a copy of the snap would be terrific, they were married in Holy Trinity Dobcross in 1877 and the Dad william was born in Latchford Cheshire and died in Warringto
my search has actually been with the Muskett name from the kendrick Muskett/Vera Brown era.
Regards Alan
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Ey UP Matey
have you got the snap? I sent it twice and I know I did wrong address once but neither have bounced back so I am a bit confused!?!
I just took snap and had a copy 8x10 when I got it home they had cut horses head in half - something SA couldn't do during Boer war!
all the best
john
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g'day John
your 2nd mail got through thanks for the pic.!!!!!
the person you spoke of was Jean b 1954 and married a Terry Calvert
later became a Councillor for huddersfield Council ?
she is still alive and living with her eldest daughter last i heard.....
Regards Alan
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Alan,
I have just come across your search for Betty Buckley who married Wright Muskett. My great grandfather was her brother Tom Tyas Buckley. Their parents were James Buckley & Ann Mills. I have found 11 siblings altogether.
Kath,
Your reasearch for Alan has proved useful in the census records the address is listed as Woodhouse and I have been trying to find out if this is Woodhouse Knowl and you have just confirmed this for me.
Thank you
Kaye
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Hello Kaye,
I'm glad it helped :D Have just reread the thread to recall it.
The 1901 census description says Woodhouse Knowl and on google street view you actually get the name plate -complete with a resident. I think some of these street views are really good but they are invasive ::)
best wishes
heywood
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g'day
do you have any more detail past Charles and Kirza 1820's who had 3 kids James William and mary?????????
Have i communicated before ????????
even though I have a amnetic disorder I cant help feeling we have
mailed.
kindest regards Alan