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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: mayoevie on Tuesday 24 February 09 22:09 GMT (UK)
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The story in my family is that my great-grandfather James Waddell met his wife, Margaret Brady in London. James was Presbyterian, from Ayrshire, and Margaret was a Catholic from Dublin. James was a dispatch rider in the Scots Guards, and Margaret was a professional cook. James became a Catholic and his family in Scotland disowned him.
There is no record of their marriage in Ireland, and if they were married in London I can't find it.
All their children were born in Dublin, Ireland, the eldest about early 1880
James died in Dublin in 1891 aged 36, which puts his birth date about 1855
I have no idea who were the parents of either James or Margaret.
Margaret appears in the 1911 census in Dublin as a widow aged 57, with 4 of her 5 children, and a grandson.
Margaret later moved to London and died there at about 90 years old.
Can any kind person help me to find the parents of James?
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
www.familysearch.org has this entry which suggests he was illegitimate (if it's the right entry)
JAMES WADDLE Birth: 14 FEB 1857 Auchinleck, Ayr
Mother: GRACE WADDLE
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Did you get Margaret's maiden name from one of the children's birth certs?
There is an 1878 marriage on freebmd for James Waddle in Greater London and one of the females is Margaret Henderson. There is no James and Margaret Waddle on the 1881 census
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Hello CaloleW
Thanks for your reply
I don't think my great-grandfather is Graces' son. My sister searched ScotlandsPeople and she says he appears in the 1881 census in Auchinleck with the name Kerr.
My James was in Dublin at that time.
My grandfather was the second child of James and Margaret, also called James, born in Dublin July 1881, fathers name James Waddell, farmer, mothers name Margaret Brady.
However, there is a slight possibility that the marriage you mention could be theirs. My aunt told me that Margaret was a young widow when she met James, but she doesn't know the name of her first husband. I think her first marriage was in Dublin, and Henderson is an Irish name. She could have been married to James using the name of her first husband, and put her maiden name on the birth registrations of her children.
Thank you for that. I searched a lot of marriage records and couldn't find them anywhere in Britain.
I live in Ireland, and now I will try to find the marriage of Margaret Brady with a Henderson.
I wrote to the archives of the Scots Guards and got the record of a James Waddle from Mauchline, whose dates are correct for my James, but it does not contain his address or next-of-kin,
If you have any other suggestions I will be very grateful
Mayoevei
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Hi Mayoevei
I can't see a James Wad* with a Mauchline birth place in the 1861 census nor a birth showing between 1855-7 on Scotlands People :-\ Do you know the name of all of James and Margaret's children and in order of birth? Maybe some possible clues there (specially if any middle surnames used).
Carol's marriage find looks a good possibility :)
Monica
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There is a James Waddell showing in Mauchline in 1861 but born in Ireland and with an earlier birth year:
William Waddle 39, quarrier, b. Ireland
Ann Waddle 34, b Ireland
Mary Waddle 13, b. Ireland
James Waddle 11, box checker b. Ireland
William Waddle 9, b. Mauchline
Agnes Waddle 6, b. Mauchline
Elizabeth Waddle 3, b. Mauchline
Ann Waddle 1, b. Mauchline
Address: Townhead, Mauchline
Added: He shows at home with parents William and Jane (possible second marriage for father?) in 1871, occupation Turner, but cannot easily see him after this year in the censuses.
Monica
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Hi Monica
Thanks for reply.
The only birth for a James around 1855 in Ayrshire is to Grace.
There are several in Lanark, and it is possible that he was born in Lanark and moved to Ayr as a child and regarded that as his birthplace.
I have the names of all the children of James and Margaret
Mary Ann (Molly)
James (born 1881)
William
Thomas
Margaret (Maggie)
Only the 2 eldest married, in Dublin, and the 3 younger moved to London with Margaret sometime after 1911 and all died there, the last, Maggie, in May 1963
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Hi
Re: the marriage. If she was widowed - she would have re-married as Henderson. However - all children born to that marriage will have Brady as her maiden name on their birth certs as that was her true maiden name.
Sometimes you get lucky and they declare the previous marriage to the registrar and he puts both names - but it's rare!!
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Thanks for that Carole. I will write to the Irish Records Office and hope they will find such a marriage.
Do you know the first name of Henderson?
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Hi
Not of her husband - you would be dependant on finding a marriage in Ireland between a Margaret Brady and ?? Henderson
There is another alternative - might be quicker. You could send for the 1878 marriage cert I found above but put a condition on your application that bride's father should be surname Brady and bride should be a widow
If it's the wrong one - the GRO will only charge a £3 search fee
That way - if it's the wrong one it will save searching for a Brady/Henderson marriage
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Thank you Carole,
I am learning something new every minute.
Working at the moment and I would need quite a while to search the site, as I am a beginner.
Will do it later and let you know how it goes.
Mayoevie
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Hi
I'm going loopy - I thought I had given the GRO reference number in my reply above but hadn't
Here it is
Marriages December qtr 1878
James WADDLE Kensington 1a 347
There are 2 possible spouses on the same page, one of whom is Margaret Henderson
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Thanks Carole
I found the reference and filled in the order form and all the details about my credit card. When it asked me for my credit limit, I didn't bother to look at my last statement, but rounded the figure down to the nearest thousand. Unfortunately, I guess because I did not state the exact credit limit, my transaction was refused.
Now I have to get another credit card, or ask someone else to apply on my behalf.
Never mind, it will be only a short delay. As I said earlier, I learn something new every day.
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That's very strange - I have never been asked for my credit card limit on a GRO transaction
Were you ordering via www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
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hi Carole
I went into freebmd.org.uk and found the reference number, then I had to register with the GRO. I then filled in the form for the marriage certificate, and after that I filled in the form for paying with my credit card. After I made the mistake of not giving the exact credit limit, it told me that I could not use that credit card again. It was something to do with security. I never had a problem like that before, when I bought other things on line. I don't remember ever being asked for my credit limit.
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Hi
Try going in directly via the link I showed above - not the freebmd link
Try re-registering.
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Ok.
Will do.
Might take all night. I am so slow
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hello Carole.
Successful.
Must be patient for a few days with fingers crossed.
Many thanks to you and Monica for your valuable help
Mayoevie
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Carole,
You have hit the bullseye. How did you do it?
I have just arrived home after a long day and the marriage certificate is here at last.
If I was near you now I would cover you with kisses. How can I thank you?
James Waddle age 24 bachelor and Margaret Henderson age 25 widow, were married according to the rites of the Catholic Church at St. Francis of Assisi in the district of Kensington, on the 16th of November 1878.
Grooms father William Waddle, foreman of works.
Brides father William Brady, gardener.
A thousand thanks to you and Monica, and all you rootschatters, and to Emma for introducing me to RootsChat.
Also today I got the birth record of their first child, a daughter, on 28th November 1879 in Dublin. The name is spelled Waddell.
Eve
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Hi Eve
I'm really glad I was able to help and relieved it turned out to be the right certificate
So James was b around 1852/53 - are you certain he was b Ayrshire
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Hi Carole,
Thanks for your quick reply.
I can't be certain as the only information I have is family lore, but no other place was mentioned.
Eve
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Great result! Well done Carol :)
Monica
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Hi
Thanks Monica.
Eve - neither the Scottish 1861 or 1871 has a James Wad** b Ayrshire in that age range.
I've checked England and there is a James Waddell b 1852 Greenock in lodgings in Gloucester in 1871. Funnily enough - there are 2 other lodgers in the same place both b Ayrshire and they are in the same trade as James - wine and spirits shopman
What was James occupation on his marriage cert
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Hi Carole,
On the marriage cert he is a Turner, and the same on the birth cert of first child.
On the birth cert of second child he is a farmer (living in a slum in Dublin city centre)
On his death cert he is a painter.
I have just noticed on one of Monica's posts a census with a William, a turner, born in Ireland. Wonder if he could be the same William?
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I'm still not seeing much more than that family. This is their entry in 1871:
Wm Waddel 45, slate ??, b. Ireland
Jane Waddel 46, b. Ireland
James Waddel 20, turner, b. Ireland
William Waddel 18, Mauchline, Ayrshire
Agnes Waddel 16, Mauchline, Ayrshire
Agnes Waddel 6, Mauchline, Ayrshire ...I think this has been mistranscribed. There is an Andrew Waddle showing as born on 26 FEB 1865 in Mauchline to a William and a Jane TAIT.
Address: Cross, Mauchline
Monica
ADDED: If it does turn out to be the right family, that birth cert. for Andrew should include details on place and date of parents' marriage in Ireland.
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This is the 1871 entry Monica found for Mauchline Ayrshire
William Waddel 45 stone?? b Ireland
Jane 46 b Ireland
James 20 occ Turner b Ireland
William 18 b Mauchline Ayrshire
Agnes 16 b Mauchline
Agnes 6 son - I wonder if this is meant to be Angus b Mauchline
Mauchline; ED: 6; Page: 9; Line: 20
Sorry Monica - Rootschat took so long to post that we crossed
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hi Monica,
If the age is correct on the 2 certs I have, James was born 1854-1855.
He died in June 1891 aged 36.
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I'm quite open to idea of men taking years off themselves..not just women!
Seriously Eve, there is nothing showing in the 1854-56 range. In the 1861 census, there are 3 entries for James born 1850-53 and then nothing until 1857-8 when there are three more - all with father called William. The entry we have in 1850 is the only one with any connection to Ayrshire, the additional connection to Mauchline is a bonus.
You have the military records also for a James, which fits your with the reference to Mauchline and now the additional information regarding his occupation at marriage which also fits with this James we have found in the censuses.
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Hi Monica,
It appears he could be the James born in Ireland, but strange that he would want to appear younger than his wife. It will be difficult to find a birth or marriage record in Ireland before 1864.
Maybe not, Protestant marriages were recorded earlier.
Looks like another trip to Dublin
Eve
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I don't think people necessarily disguised their age, most often they didn't remember their precise birth year. You can see the variance between his age at marriage and age at death.
Re. marriage in Ireland, do you mean for potential parents of this James? The details will hopefully be included in that 1865 birth cert for Andrew. I think William and Jane, parents showing in the census, may have died between 1871-81. Can't easily see them in 1881 and younger son is in a different household. Likely that William and Jane died in Scotland so you should be able to get their parents' names from their death certs, if known to the informant.
Monica
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Oops :P just realised that the birth of an Andrew in 1865 can't be the same family, parents William and Jane (Tait) only married in 1862. So, no idea what the maiden name of wife Jane was, mother of the James we have in the censuses 1861/71. Can't see a possible birth in Mauchline that Agnes age 6 who shows in 1871 :-\
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Hi Monica,
Yes, if this James was born in Ireland, and his parents were born in Ireland, I think there is a strong possibility that they were married in Ireland, and moved to Mauchline before the birth of their son William.
Would the birth cert of any of the younger children contain the place of marriage of the parents?
Do you think it would help if I send for it?
Eve
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Eve
Sorry, I've just typed out a whole post and lost it all :'( Let me get new info I've found...
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Take II...
I'm getting confused with mother's names! In 1861, mother's name was Ann, in 1871 mother's name shows as Jane. The daughter Agnes who shows in 1871 age 16 was born in 1855 in Mauchline, parents William W. and Ann McKee (McKie). Her birth cert in 1855 is the magic year for certs in Scotland :) The first year of official reg. in Scotland and entries ran over two pages of the register. Her birth cert shows parents as married in 1848 in Grey Abbxy, Co. Down (sorry, I'm useless on Irish place names!). William and Ann show as born there. Their fourth child, 2 boys and 1 girl previously (fitting that 1861 census entry). Ann McKie died in Mauchline in 1861, some days after the 1861 census (parents William McKie and Agnes Harrison).
It would then appear that William Snr. remarried Jane Tait in 1862 in Mauchline, they then go on to have son Andrew in 1865.
So, James's parents (assuming we have the right entry) were William W. and Ann McKie from Co. Down (hopefully you can make out the place name) who married there in 1848. They look to have come over to Scotland (Ayrshire) sometime between 1851-2.
Monica
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Someone else researching this line ;) Submitted entry on IGI:
WILLIAM WADDEL and ANN MC KEE
Marriage: 21 NOV 1846 Grey Abbey, Down, Ireland
Wife Age at Marriage: 18
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Hi Monica,
Sorry, my head is in a spin, very tired and not able to think properly.
What if our James was one of the 3 you say were born about 1858. Perhaps he lied about his age so that he could join the Scots Guards. The family story is that he was very tall, and if so, he could have got away with adding a few years to his age. Also, maybe he had reason to add a few years to his age when he met Margaret.
The record of James Waddle from the Scots Guards says he joined in Kilmarnock in October 1872 at the age of 18 and was found to belong to the 2nd Lanark Militia for which he was enrolled 29th July 1872. He served as a private in the Scots Guards until he was transferred to the 1st Class army reserve in November 1878.
It's looking more like this is him. The record states height just over 6ft., trade or calling TURNER. (I was not able to decipher that word in the handwriting until now).
Presbyterian, BORN Mauchline.
A note at the top says he intends to reside at Chelsea.
As far as I know Chelsea is not far from Kensington
Can't concentrate any more at the moment.
Must go to bed now. Early start tomorrow.
Good night and thanks to you and Carole for your very generous help
Eve
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Sorry Monica,
It took so long to type my last post that we crossed each other.
I can't get my head around all that until I get a few winks.
Thanks again
Eve
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Monica and Carole,
A thousand thanks for your generosity with your time and knowledge.
You have broken down one of my brick walls and I can now try to find some more descendants of William in or near Mauchline.
This is a wonderful site with a lot of brilliant people always willing to help beginners like me.
I hope I will get the opportunity to do the same for some other searcher.
Best wishes,
Eve
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Hi Evelyn, Look at that link for the Mauchline directory that I sent you! It's from 1903. The only Waddell listed is a quarryman (I thinks all the residences in Mauchline are listed). Guess what his name is - you got it William! He may be the son William or perhaps a grandson. He lived in High St. and Loan. Several McKie's are listed - maybe the family came from there originally (before one of them went to Ireland).
Dor
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Dor,
Monica and I exchanged a few personal messages, and she has shown me that the only William who ticks all the boxes is the one you are mentioning who was born in Ireland, in fact in Co. Down, only a hop across the water from Mauchline.
She also very kindly sent me the birth of one of his daughters, and the death of his wife Ann.
James may have been older than we originally thought, but that is about the only conflicting evidence.
We should start planning that trip to Mauchline.
Eve
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Hi Eve and Dor (Welcome to RootsChat Dor :))
Eve, I think the William that Dor is referring to may be James' brother William. I saw an entry for him in the later censuses, let me go and find it again...
Monica
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From the 1881 census:
William Waddell 28, Freestone Quarryman, b. Mauchline
Margaret Waddell 29, b. Auchinleck, Ayrshire
Margaret Waddell 4, b. Mauchline
William Waddell 2, b. Mauchline
Address: Earl Grey St., Mauchline
Monica
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Can't see William (b. 1853) in the 1901 entry but I think this is the rest of the family:
Maggie Waddle 50, b. Auchinleck, Ayrshire
William Waddle 22, Freestone Quarryman
Agness Waddle 15
John Waddle 12
Address: Loan, Mauchline
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Hi Monica,
You have probably guessed that Dor is my sister.
This is getting very exciting. Dor is much more efficient on the computer so I think she should take over now.
Notice how the spelling of the name keeps changing, and every family has at least one Margaret or Maggie.
Coincidence, totally separate. My husband's maternal grandmother was McKay, spelled McKee in the
1901 in Kilmeena Westport, spelled McKay in 1911, and McKeay in Griffiths. I don't know where they were before that, and since then they have all emigrated or died out.
I hope, Monica, that you are enjoying this detective work as much as I am, but of course you are doing all the work. Don't know how to thank you for that.
Evelyn
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Hi Evelyn
Hadn't guessed that Dor was your sister - the more the merrier on this hunt ;) You're doing fantastic on the computer Eve, don't knock your efforts!
I wouldn't worry too much about the spelling variations on the surname, a sign of the times when spellings were very fluid and often written phonetically.
Nothing more than RootsChatters like than a good puzzle!
Monica
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Yes I have many Waddells,Weddells,& all it's glorious permutations.
My Grandfather was the second youngest of a batch of nine- the first three or four are spelled "Waddle" & the others "Waddell"His parents were educated & literate I think that surname spellings were just not standardised until officialdom took over our lives!
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Hello Joette
How did you find this thread? I searched for it a few days ago and was not able to find it. It was completed last March and I assumed that the Rootschat moderaters deleted it.
If you think you might be related to my branch of the Waddells after reading all the previous posts I would love to have more information from you. I travelled to Mauchline last June and found a lot more about my ancestors.
Sincerely,
Evelyn
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Hi Evelyn I wish but alas no my Waddells have no connection to Ayrshire Apart from that they marry into my Ayrshire Browns,Torrances,McDowall/McQuath.