RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: Daisy Loo on Tuesday 24 February 09 11:24 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone :)
Due to the amazing help and patience of Jacquie, and Janice, I am now in touch with my Canadian relatives. I now have photos, stories etc. However, as is want to happen, when you get new info, you get new mysteries!
Here's the background on this one:
Harry & Maria Hilsden emigrated to Canada in 1905, with their 3 sons, George Harold, Eric Stanley, & Norman Henry.
In 1915, Eric Stanley married a lovely lady called Margaret Bryans. (Source: Marriage Cert). According to the MC, Margaret Bryans was born in 1891, in Elors. Her father is listed as: W J Bryans, and her mother is listed as: E A Shewell Bryans.
However, last night I got sent a few photos, and sketchy bits of a story, Apparently, Margaret was adopted, and was treated somewhat like a slave by her adoptive family. Eric's family, and himself, kind of rescued her. (Source: word of mouth, from grandson of Eric) Also relayed to me, that Margaret was of European descent, even though she was born in Canada.
The photo I was sent, was this one:
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The name of the file of the above photo, was as it was sent to me. So I asked, who was Christine Vickers? Was she Margarets birth mother? The grandson wasn't sure. He then sent me the back of the photo:
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I asked why she was given up for adoption, and the grandson seemed to think that the family couldn't afford to keep her. :(
Was Margaret born Margaret Vickers, and if so, what are the names, Ross & Bryans?
he finally sent me another photo, and he himself didn't understand the "caption" on it...but apparently, Margaret is in it:
My guess, is that Stanley is the top boy on the left, Margaret is the girl on the right, and Eveline Annie is the mother at the front (Eveline Annie matching with the E A of the Marriage Cert.), don't know the names of the others...
Sorry for this great big long post, but the story has caught me up! How can I go about tracing this lady? Would it be possible at all? (ps, the marriage took place in Grey)
Thanks for reading this far anyway!
Daisy Loo
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Hi,
I cannot help withy our query but the names in your inital post struck me
the photo i have of my profile is
my great nan with her children
Harold
Stanley
George
Norman
and Hilda (Amelia)
Harold moved first to detroit where he worked in the motor factories and then he moved to Vancouver,
i had to read your post a few times because of teh names
good luck in your search
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Hi Toni*
That is pretty amazing...don't suppose they came from Wycombe, Bucks did they? Or have HILLSDON/HILSDEN relatives?
Daisy Loo
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Wow, a mystery...We love those...
Now don't worry there may be some spec and missinformation, but if it can be sorted in the end, we will do our best...
I'll start with just Evaline and William John Bryans...1891, with no children
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1891/001081-119.02-e.php?person_id_nbr=1559920
and 1901 with three children ( Stanley, Rita & Fanny) & still no Margaret in household
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=51978&highlight=42
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aha, Christina Vickers! Unwed...a dressmaker, Elora, Wellington
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1891/001081-119.02-e.php?person_id_nbr=2941781
With Margaret as surname McIntosh!
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ooooh JJ, that's fantastic!
So Evaline & William John were English...
and the photo fits then, as it says Stanley, margaret...okay...
And now Christina Vickers....
You're a star! Thanks :)
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ooh, I missed the bit of Margaret being McIntosh! the mystery gets better!
what do the letters N & L stand for, in the column relation to head?
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I was thinking "N" meant no relation, but I'll have to check on that...Her death has the initial "M" on here:
http://search.labs.familysearch.org
Christina M. Vickers, born 1870, death Jan. 26th 1900, Elora, Wellington, Ontario
I imagine someone can elaborate on that...
and here are the Bryans as Bryns, a new son Harold, and adopted Maggie in 1911
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=93811
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Hello folks :),
I couldn't find N or L in the list of abbreviations for the 1891 Census. I was wondering about the posibility that N might stand for niece? Also, looking at a couple of other entries on the page I was wondering if L might stand for lodger?
Wish I had full Ancestry so I could look up the baby's birth details but someone will come along who can, I'm sure.
Polarbear
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Hi, Polarbear !
it may be a search as I couldn't find Margaret under Vickers or McIntosh, mother Christina...
I also thought of niece for N...but haven't found a connection so I'll peek about for one...
Christina Webster, the widow in whose home Christina & Maggie were in, died Jan. 26, 1899, Elora
(approx. 82 years, born c. 1817 Scotland)
I imagine the loss of a home to work out of would have been rough...
A Jessie Vickers of Elora died Dec. 10 1893, & was born Scotland c. 1825...
& there'a an Elora death for a Maria Vickers in 1870...no age given on site
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Christina Webster is already a widow & alone in 1881....and no sign of Christina & family as yet!!!!
Nothing under Vickers...was she married to a Vickers? no, that's right she wasn't married...Hmmm...
and mysteries always have those puzzle bits that have dropped to the floor...
On my hands & knees now...
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In 1871 there are 2 males, Thomas & Francis mentioned, who are brothers from England...( a George Vickers in Garafraxa may have been a brother)
Promising...and a little tidbit about them here, should they be her kin...
http://www.thevickerage.com/History%20of%2090%20Moir2.htm
There is also Maria, a widow, & in the household there have been 2 recent deaths registered...
1881 Thomas & Jessie have no children, Francis is a no-show...
Then there is the Maria who died 1870....
Nose to the floor and still no further ahead ...
and the above couple was rather well off to have not taken the wee gal in if she was a rellie...
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Adding: Frustrating that Christina doesn't show on 1881, and Maggie doesn't in 1901..tried dozens of variables in all cases...hope someone else can find more! J.J.
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Hi again,
J.J., have you been able to find a birth for Christina Vickers? She just might have been born/registered after registration began (1869 was it?)?
I didn't find her on the 1881 either. Frustrating, as you say. She has to be somewhere. She wasn't on the 1881 US Census either.
Polarbear
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Can't believe how much you both have found already!
I had a quick look to see if Christina Vickers was born in England, on the offchance...the only one that showed up, was a Christina Vickers born in 1864 (this on the 1881 census) and funnily enough, she was a dressmaker.
Her father was English, and her mother Scottish...hmmm
JJ, did you try Margaret Ross? For some reason, that name was on the back of the photo.
I wonder if in 1901, Margaret was taken into care (as her mother had just died in 1900) could she have gotten "lost" in an orphanage or something?
How strange that you can't find the birth :(
You've done great so far!
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Cool! That Christianna Vickers was actually born 1863 Bolton, so even younger to be "our" gal...
But a neat coincidence, for sure" ( maybe we should leave that door open though)
No, I don't have access to the births, but have asked a few people to hopefully look in and see what they can locate for you...Hopefully we haven't created too much reading thus far to get involved...
I suppose the next step if no birth is found is to ask for help searching in the 1871 Vickers households in Elora...
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Here is the death information from the certificate....
Christina M Vickers
Date of Death: June 26, 1900
Residence: Geddes Street, Elora
Occupation: Dressmaker
Single
Where Born: Elora, Ontario
Cause of Death: Suppurative Peritonitis - 5 Days
Religion: Presb.
Reg. No. 027978
County of Wellington
K
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Just for some information, here is an article about the poorhouse that was in Wellington County. If one of them were in the poorhouse, this would have been the place. It still exists today as an historical site and is where the Wellington County Archives is located.
http://www.thestar.com/article/561020
Karen
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We might just be looking for a mother only for Christina as well, I suppose...Although Maggie was born McIntosh surname, she called herself Vickers, so the same could be for Christina as well...
More on the Elora Vickers......John, George & Thomas are on a the town's list, No mention of the brother Francis
http://www.wcm.on.ca/tweedsmuir/results_name.php?start=249&name_first=&name_last=&township=o11
Good mystery...Hope we solve it tho! ;) J.J.
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Here is the McIntosh/Vickers connection
Marriage registration for:
Francis Vickers
Age: 45
Widow
Place of birth: Yorkshire England
Occupation: Hotel Keeper
Parents: Francis Vickers & Mary Brooke
Jane McIntosh
Age: 31
Place of birth: Aberdeenshire Scotland
Single
Parents: George McIntosh & Margaret Rofs
Witnesses: William Gerrie, Elora & Ann Duncan, Elora
Date of Marriage: Nov. 7, 1872
Elora, Ontario
Religion: Church of England for groom
Presb. for bride
K
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That's so funny I was just going to post this when I saw that:
Name: Ann Maria Davies died May 31,1909 (Age 35 years 11 months 10 days) Wearton, Bruce, Ont
Born June 10 1873 Elora, Ont. Spouse John H. Davies
Parents Francis Vickers & Jane Mcintosh
Do you have deaths for the parents?
Why would she call the child her mother's surname? Oh, if these are the parents then yes she was McIntosh surname... ::)
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Uh, here they are in 1881...
Names aren't easy to read...She may be the M she used for a middle name?
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e328/e008192522.jpg
Meta Vickers?
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Here's a link to the Ontario Cemetery Finding Aid where you will see Christina is buried in the Elora Municipal Cemetery together with other Vicker's.
http://www.islandnet.com/ocfa/search.php
K
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Uh, here they are in 1881...
Names aren't easy to read...She may be the M she used for a middle name?
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e328/e008192522.jpg
Meta Vickers?
There is a birth registration for Meta Vickers in 1875 in Wellington County, parents Francis & Jane Vickers :-\
K
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Death Registration for:
Maria Vickers
Date of Death: October 8, 1870
Age: 36
Occupation: Wife of Francis Vickers, Hotel Keeper Elora
Where Born: Twp. of Garafraxa, County of Wellington
Cause of Death: Inflamation of the bowels - 5 weeks
Informant: Francis Vickers
Reg. No. 010006
K
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Found this ... is this any good ?? ::)
11709-77 - Francis DYCE, 37, widower, hotel keeper, Aberdeenshire Scotland, Drayton, s/o James DYCE & Elsie ROSS, married Margaret McGUIRE, 28, Toronto, Elora, d/o Barnet & Ann, witn: Francis VICKERS & Mary BIGGAR, both of Elora, 14 Aug 1877 at Elora
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~maryc/welg77.htm
PS The first place is the birth place !
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1871 he was at the Royal Hotel in Elora ! and Thomas Vickers was in 1867 at the same place !
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~sday/thesis/wellingtonKeepers6731.htm
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As I can't keep all the names straight ..... :P and they all keep changing names ... thought I'd throw this in the hat !! ... just in case !! :D
BALLARD alias VICKERS, Jane, f, Dec 7 1870, 33 years, Newcastle England, cause - consumption, infm - Henry Ballard, Pickering (Ontario Co) 006509-70
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~onvsr/death/deathindex_ba-bd_new.htm
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Joseph BORDON, Mary Jane VICKERS, March 17, 1870, at Royal Hotel, Elora
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~maryc/welg70.htm
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Hi Annie & Karen...thanks for joining in!
Actually she's probably the Trina ( Tina?) ...age 11...I was trying to get on the past ages but was shut out...UGH...Hate that...
Yeah, if you read all the little junk I put on in urls it talks about the hotel and such...
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Elsie ROSS??? what have you found, Annie ? the Ross connection? ;D
You're doing great...I'm off...see you all tomorrow...
Chilly hugses! J.J.
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lol ;D oh my! You have all totally lost me!
I can see I am going to have to go through all the posts carefully!
Hi Karen & Annie, as JJ has already said, thanks for joining in!
I can't believe the info already found, this is fantastic...the family in Canada are going to be astounded at what has been found. When the grandson is next online, I will try and get as much info as possible, but I don't know how much help he will be, as he didn't even know that Christina was Margaret's birth mother!
I see that you all work away when I'm asleep (or trying to, if my little laad lets me!), so please accept my apologies for not answering sooner.
I am going to put my lad for his nap, then come back to these posts, and re-read them all.
Thanks again everyone, this is fantastic!
Daisy Loo
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Hello everyone :)
Here is more of the family in 1891...living in Bruce County
Frank Vicker (no 's') 65 Widower
Ann M 18
Meta R 16
Nina M E 13
No sign of Frank Jr. anywhere so far but in the 1901 Census there is a Frank Vickers 20, b. 31 Mar 1881, that matches the 1881 Census. He is a Boarder in Elora; couldn't see a connection to the people he is living with.
Also in the 1901 Census...
Meta Vickers 26, b. 12 Feb 1884
Nina Vickers 23, b. 30 Nov 1887
The 2 ladies are "adopted daughters" of John and Mary J Johns (forgot where they are living)
We know that Ann Maria married from an earlier post...I haven't looked for her in 1901 yet.
We have Christina Vickers in 1891 as age 21 and deceased about 10 years later age 31.
Pondering....Trina/Tina is 11 years old in the 1881 Census. Could she be Christina? If so, she was born prior to the marriage of Jane and Francis. I was wondering if she could be the daughter of Jane, making her legal name McIntosh and the reason Margaret was a McIntosh in the 1891 Census?
What an interesting thread!
Polarbear :)
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Okay, so just to try and organise what has been found so far:
The Adoptive Family:
1891 Census:
William John Bryans (b.1866/7- Ireland) - Occupation, farmer
Eveline Annie (b.1866/7 - England)
1901 Census
William John, Eveline & 3 Kids, Stanley, Rita & Fanny
1911 Census
William John, Eveline, Stanley, Rita, Fanny, Harold and Maggie (b.1890, Origin- Scotch)
So, finally in 1911 we have Margaret/Maggie living with the Bryans, as their adopted daughter.
What do we know now about Margaret.
On her marriage Cert, in 1915, she was listed as aged 24, making her birth year 1891
Her father was listed as W J Bryans, mother, E A Bryans So far everything fits :)
We have a photo naming Christina Vickers as her mother, who died in 1900, when Margaret was 9 years old.
Ooh Polar Bear, your post has just come through, and you are way ahead of me!
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To Continue...(for me as much as anyone new who may jon the thread)
JJ then found Christina Vickers in 1881, living with a Christina Webster, and little Margaret surname McIntosh just 8 months. Christina is a dressmaker.
Death of Christina in 1900, also gave her birth, in 1870, in Elora, Ont
Then the discovery of all the other people, which I haven't managed to get my head round yet!
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Is the general thought then, that Francis & Jane Vickers are Christina's parents? and Christine is the Tina, on the 1881 census...aged 11, making her born in 1870, (2 years prior to marriage of parents?)
Added: And if Jane had Christina by another man, Christina could be McIntosh? Or perhaps Christina just used that name for the child...her own mother's maiden name...
I am going offline for a while...can anyone explain to me the connections? I must be a bit slow! I'll be back on as soon as kids in bed :)
This really is fascinating...I will have to relate what you have found to Margaret's grandchildren...they will be amazed.
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McIntosh was Jane's middle name....so if the babe was born before wedlock, might have been called McIntosh first, then changed name to father's after marriage...Is it too simplified, or too complicated...I'm not sure, hehe.
and I had only glanced at the 1881 image and assumed the eldest was on top that's why i didn't catch the Trina...Just like at first glance I though I saw Maynard instead of Margaret McIntosh on the 1891, so had to look closer to see it was Margaret...
::) My EYES, My EYES!!!!
Plus go back & read the little publications on the Vickers now that they are family...it will be more interesting... But also sad that the other rellies didn't undertake the raising of the neices & nephew
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Hi again,
The question is...If Christina is the daughter of Jane and possibly Francis, how can it be proven? Her birth reg is certainly elusive at the moment.
Elora is a relatively small place....I wonder if there might be baptismal records available, assuming Christina was born there? I'm afraid I don't know anything about that but someone else is sure to know.
I was also wondering if Margaret's grandchildren know where the 'Ross' came from (on the back of the picture)? McIntosh is missing from the list of names?
More Qs than answers....
Polarbear
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If the births were never registered, which did seem to happen with unwed moms sometimes, then it would be tough...Christina's middle name was "M" on death cert, which may have been the McIntosh remaining in her name...Why it would also be used by Christina for Margaret is tough to wrap the brain around...unless she knew Frank wasn't her real father? ahhh...pure spec...J.J.
adding: Baptisms and Confirmation gave me a third and fourth name...middle name was from Grandma and third name was my aunt's... J.J.
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...Why it would also be used by Christina for Margaret is tough to wrap the brain around...
Could it be possible, that Christina had the child in secret, with the rest of the family not knowing? Perhaps that is why the child was named McIntosh, to further "hide" the baby, and also perhaps why Christina was living with Christina Webster...
What I would really like to find out, and I probably won't, is if Margaret was adopted as a baby, or when the mother died at aged 9 Obviously the child was adopted after 1901 by the Bryans... is there not a 1906 Canadian Census?...
Daisy Loo
Ps, I did go back and read the "notes" and yes, the additions certainly add "meat" ;D But are we really sure Christina is related to these people?
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Jane McIntosh
Age: 31
Place of birth: Aberdeenshire Scotland
Single
Parents: George McIntosh & Margaret Rofs
Witnesses: William Gerrie, Elora & Ann Duncan, Elora
Uh, I missed the obvious with my 2 second glances again!
ROFS!!! ROSS!!!! silly us, we should know that back then an "s" could be an "f" and aspecially when "double s"
She's named after Margaret Ross...I've convinced myself...but I imagine more proof can be found with deeper digging...)
( there are 2 birth for parents George MacIntosh & Margaret Ross - a Donald & a Margaret)
Tarbat By Fearn, Ross And Cromarty, Scotland
re: earlier couple...James & Elsie (Ross) Dyce came to Canada c1855 with their nine children. She was born c. 1822....No connection seen as yet to the Ross family...might have just been coincidence that he helped run the Vicker's Hotel in Elora.
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... is there not a 1906 Canadian Census?...
Yes, but only for the prarie provinces.
K
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Elora is a relatively small place....I wonder if there might be baptismal records available, assuming Christina was born there? I'm afraid I don't know anything about that but someone else is sure to know.
I found a marriage, I forget for who now, but it took place at St. John's Anglican Church, which is still the only Anglican church in Elora, so I'm guessing that would be the place to check for records.
K
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Heres some pictures of the church and Elora !
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ettml/sets/72157603921683286/
Annie :)
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Just off topic for a minute ...... ::) .... have you guys seen this site ?
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hutchfield/monint.html
Annie :)
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What a great site Annie!
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There are a Frances & Mary Vickers on 1852 census who may be parents of Francis ( Frances Vickers / Mary Brooke)
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/SurnameSearch.jsp?surname=vickers
Now I don't see Francis with the bottom lot, who are brothers George, Thomas & maybe parents but there's
one in Brantford... wife Maria...remember he was widower?
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/View.jsp?id=250&highlight=29&desc=1852+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Francis+Vickers
So if he comes to run Hotel in Elora, wife dies 1870...Christine born c 1870...Francis marries Jane 1872....?
Oh, yes, annie...I found it yesterday as well, but had to leave as the colours made my vertigo creep up...
ugh
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Maybe Maria died as a result of Christina's birth? Cause of death was inflamation of the bowels? If we had Christina's birth that would make things so much easier.
K
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Ok, I called the church ;D don't you love it when the say, hang on let me get the book!
So, he couldn't see any Christina c1870 in the baptism's, but he did give me this information
Ann Maria Vickers, daug. of Francis & Jane
June 10, 1873, sponsors Mr. & Mrs. Sheppard
Meta Elizabeth, daug. Francis & Jane
June 11, 1875, sponsors William & Margaret Gay
Nina Mary Ellen, daug. Francis & Jane
Sept. 30, 1877, sponsors John & Mary Jane Johns
Karen
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So nice of you Karen...yeah, "long distance...can you hold???"
Well I know what a local Catholic priest told my neighbours...when they asked if their baby ( born only three months after he knew he'd married the couple ) could be baptised he answered "I won't baptise your little "B*ST*RD!"
So it wasn't always the choice of the couple if you see what I mean...
and no, they never attended again...
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So, in
1891 sorry 1901, Nina & Meta are living with Nina's godparents then (sponsors).
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Would the 1871 census help?...It would prove the right father at least...but then censuses aren't always accurate for dates, are they?
Frank/Frances Jr. ( maybe double jr.) in 1901 b. March 31st.
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=107713
He can also be found in WW1 CEF signups as there is a notation on one of those urls concerning Elora fellas
Meta & Nina 1901 Wiarton, Bruce
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=19117&highlight=37
Ann Davies also in Wiarton, Bruce...so was she also adopted by the same family?
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=19126&highlight=16
and what on earth did the census taker 1881 write for AnnMaria born 1873? Looks like Bricken or some such?
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Yes, the promise of sponsors is that should anything happen to the parents they would take over...and also uphold the "faith" I don't think anyone thinks of that responsibility anymore...
(nowadays the rearing of children would have to be written in a will)
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I feel so frustrated that I can't help look! You have all found so much...and I'm sitting on the edge of my chair! Margaret's grandson hasn't come online yet >:(...pops up online whenever I am busy, and stuck into something, and then when I want him >:(
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Sorry, we are having fun, aren't we... Maybe you could piece it all together in to order...
oh, wait..that's the hard part and you are already a little miffed at Gson...
Early photos of Elora town
http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/ENGLISH/exhibits/connon/elora.htm
There may be something in the Vickers file on here:
http://www.wcm.on.ca/archives_family-r.php
( altho we may have already seen it all online)
and Ohhhh....The Vickers connection
for the descendants of Francis and Mary Vickers of South Elmsall, Yorkshire, and Elora, Ontario
http://204.9.225.200/Eng/Library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=366228&disp=The+Vickers+connection
but where available, only a few were made...
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So, for Margaret, we have her in 1891, living in the Village of Elors, then in 1911, she's living in Grey South?
what's the distance between these two places?
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Okay, I have just trawled the 1901 census for Elors Village, and for Sullivan (which in 1901, was North grey, not South) and not a single whisper of a sign of Margaret :'(
On an offside, I am amazed at how many adopted children there were, and all to people who already had a few kids. Why would this be?
Added: there was a family of McIntosh'es in Sullivan...A Donald (b.1824) and a Mary (b.1834) - children, Cameron & Christina
Next door to them, was Alex (b.1872) with wife and son, Next door to that was: mother Ann McIntosh (b.1844), and 3 sons, John Thomas & Hugh
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So, for Margaret, we have her in 1891, living in the Village of Elors, then in 1911, she's living in Grey South?
what's the distance between these two places?
It's about an hour and 1/2 todays driving north, right up Hwy. #6
Karen
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Thanks Karen :D
I'm having a rummage around regarding the adoptions. I've trawled through many English census's, and have never seen the amount of adopted children like there were in these census's.
Were there centre's for adoption in Canada back then? Or would it be families taking in children of friends and relatives. Were the adoptions legal and formal? It seems strange, that all these children kept their own names, as well as some of them, having the family name added on.
As an extra, I have looked up another Canadian's family tree on An*****y regarding Margaret, and though she has no details whatsoever on her...she is named in full as Margaret Ross Vickers Bryans. What a name. (still no sign of the grandson!)
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A few more tidbits....
Just noted that on Jane's marriage she gives her religion as Presbyterian. I wonder about a possible baptism for Christina in a church of that religion? Does Elora have one? (still assuming she was born there but see below).
I checked births registered as 'female' 1869-1871 with no luck....all children had 2 parents.
1871 Census Elora...
Francis Vickers 45 Widower Hotel Keeper b. England
Mary Jane Vickers 19 b. Ontario
plus 2 apparently unrelated males, perhaps patrons?
I didn't find a Jane McIntosh in the town.
Polarbear
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Oh, good, more mystery then....?
Mary Jane was daughter from first marriage to Maria...married John Johns
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On the flickr link that Annie gave, of the pics of Elora...there was a Knox Presbytarian Church, but it had a date of 1873 on it, which would be a bit late for Christina's birth wouldn't it?
added: scratch the above date of 1873...just gone on the website for Knox Church, and it was built in 1837...as a small log church!
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Oooohhh! The girls were adopted by their 1/2 sister then?
Nice that they weren't strangers.
A small log church. Real pioneers :)
Polarbear
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Marriage Registration for:
John Johns
Age: 28
Residence when married: Elora
Place of Birth: England
Bachelor
Occupation: Distiller
Parents: Samuel & Mary Johns
Mary Jane Vickers
Age: 20
Residence when married: Elora
Place of birth: blank
Parents: Adopted Daughter of Francis and Maria Vickers
Witnesses: John L. Gibson, Elora & Mary Ann Skeane (?)
Date: August 29, 1872
St. John's Anglican Church
Religion for both: Church of England
Karen
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Polar bear, welcome to the hunt...Good mystery, but a tough one...and you've thrown in the usual wrench as well...but keeps us on our toes...
Yes, I just found the marriage, although don't have access to details...so good going, as I was going to see
if it was a rellie..
Did anyone post Jane's death in 1882 / Clifford, Wellington...says born c. 1853 Aberdeenshire.
http://search.labs.familysearch.org
also there is a birth for a Francis Johns Vickers mother is Mary Jane Vickers, so THAT birth was registered...
Karen just sent me the 1891, so the name was just reversed, as he's Francis Vickers Johns...
I thought we had another birth before marriage
Here's the image 1891 John johns & Mary Jane & family
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Oh, dear....just saw your entry, Karen...Keeps life interesting...
>:( Where's our Jane McIntosh in 1871... & does she have little Christina? :-\
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I'm so behind ....... ::) but do you have this already ?
MCINTOSH m[at]ca.on.wellington.guelph 1872 published
VICKERS Francis to McINTOSH Jane
contact Wellington branch
http://www.ogs.on.ca/branches/branchlocator.php
https://secure3.zenutech.com/~ogs/ogspi/187/m187x000.htm#mcintosh
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Hmmm, I think we need to see who all is living with Francis Vickers in the 1871 census.
Karen
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reply #60 polarbear says there's only Francis & his adopted daughter...It was awefully good of her to do the same for her sisters later in life...She had a family of her own to raise... :) J.J.
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Good day everyone. Have sent an email to the grandson, so I do hope to get something back from him soon.
Looking up adoption, it seems that there was no formal adoption records kept until the early 1900's, and even then, most adoptions were just friends, neighbours or relatives taking in a child. If that's the case, nothing will be found on Margaret's adoption, ie when, unless, I can get more info from her descendants. I think her son may still be alive, but will have to ask the grandson again.
Has anyone, or could anyone look up a marriage for the Bryans? in 1891, they were living as married, no children, so safe to say perhaps that they were newly weds. William John was from Ireland, and Eveline Annie (Shewell, but don't know if that's her maiden name...have tried looking her up on English records, but could find no Eveline Annie Shewell on An****y) was from England. I'm guessing that they got married in Canada.
I am interested to see if there could have been a relative connection between these folk to Margaret.
Added: I've probably repeated what someone else has done, but I checked the 1871 census Canada for a Jane McIntosh, and there wasn't one that matched....there was one who was 32....but religion didn't match, and was English
I have found Jane in the 1851 & 1861 Scotland census's. In 1851, she is living with her mother & father, in 1861, she is a servant. So guess she must have gone to Canada between 1861 & 1872 anyway.
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Please by all means do lots of searching....
I would say that the parents of william John ( He's born circa 1864 of Irish descent...) are the couple James & Margaret who are near them in the Sullivan dist. Grey county on the 1891 and the 1901...both born c1840 Ireland
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1891/001081-119.02-e.php?person_id_nbr=1559920
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=51974&highlight=4
Ugh...don't see a marriage offhand, but maybe the surname has to be just right...
Eveline born c. 1866 england / Irish descent immigrated when very young around 1872...There are several Eveline
in 1881 but none seem to ring as being the right one as yet...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll add here if I find more:
Not sure if anyone else is looking for the marriage or perhaps can't find it...Only birth I can find:
Births Sept Q. 1866 Showell, Eveline A Darlington vol. 10a p.33
that got it...what I can see is: Eveline Annie Showell m. William John Bryans
parents are Fanny Wrigley Showell & Owen Johnson Showell
hmmm, no wonder she is "Ann Evlier SHOVEL" in 1881 ::)
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Okay, found that Eveline Annie Showell in 1871 census in Uk as well. No matching names or anything...so maybe they were just friends or neighbours....
Added:
Oh well done....
so yeah, matches up with the 1871 census, coz mothinlaw Wrigley was living with them....okay another idea hits the dust :'(
You know what though, I am very glad that we have found Margaret's real mother, and real family...I think you guys have done amazing to get this far. I should be grateful for that! Not moaning for more!!!
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hmmm, no wonder she is "Ann Evlier SHOVEL" in 1881 ::)
lol oh dear! accents no doubt! :o
So we are still missing:
1. Birth Reg/Baptism for Margaret Ross/Vickers/McIntosh, (c.1891)
2. Where she was in 1901
3. Birth Reg/Baptism For Christina Vickers/McIntosh (c.1870)
4. Where Christina was in 1871
5. Where Jane McIntosh was in 1871
Have I got that right?
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Just a thing I found...might be relevant, might not be...BUT
While poking around in the 1871 census, I put in McIntosh, and Grey North...only 2 names came up for Sullivan,
John McIntosh, 54, Scotland
Maria McIntosh, 1, Ontario
No other McIntosh'es to be found. I thought this a bit strange, I am assuming that they were in the same household. Could the M in Christina M Vickers stand for Maria? Haven't yet seen if there is a connection from Christina to John...but...just another sighting!
Added: I received an email from the grandson, and unfortunately, he has never heard of McIntosh, and also wondered about the Ross. he did mention that the last family reunion took place in Elora, where his grandmother grew up, at least while she was with her mother..(ie from birth til she was 9?)
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I just looked and they aren't in the same household, although someone might still be looking after his child
The baby is here:
District 37 / Sub District A / Division Page 1 / Page D / County GREY Sullivan Twp.
John is Division Page 2, Page 69
Can anyone see any more information on this baby ? 1861 not available yet for all these areas we are searching....
but they are moving along...
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Yes, I found out a bit more...apparently page D means "The page number 'D' means that this individual did not appear in the regular census schedule, but instead was listed on the schedule that recorded deaths that had taken place within the last twelve months."
Looks like not our baby anyway! :(
I joined up with an***ry.com, for the 14 day trial and have been searching like mad! and Zilch!
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Here's another red herring.
I have found a Jane McIntosh in Scotland, on the 1871 census,b.1838 birth place, Huntly, Aberdeenshire with mother Margaret, . (No father there.) Thing is the birth place of Margaret, the mother doesn't match the rest of the census's, and neither does the age :(
I had a look at passenger lists...only one came close, to fit with times, and its quite a peculier one...James McIntosh, Jane McIntosh b.1844 and a baby, Jane McIntosh...age 2, ...but the weird thing is, that with every other couple/family travelling, wife is written enxt to the woman's name, but not so with Jane, implying she is not the wife of James. This was arriving in 1867, in Canada.
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hah, we sent at same time...
Never hurts to try all avenues, as we have been surprised before... Wonder when Jane McIntosh entered Canada...Maybe found lots of information on a John McIntosh and Margaret Ross, but not on a George as father...
But now that you have *A* did you check out...the scotland census to make sure that the gal we think it is isn't on the 1872...Can't remember, did we have a year of imm. from a census? Too much for taking notes, so hope you did, daisy loo....Did she have a baby at sea? Prior to coming here? Are they on a passenger list together...Do we have a Christine age one on the Scot census 1871? ( First check if we had a year of immigration as that would be a waste of time)...awe we are starting to snag....momentum waned at the lack of baby in 1871 household did it?
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Also when I reread I saw that you had questions about the great number of adoptions...To be brief, there was about a century of child migration to Canada...for their own good it is said, although they were taken from their homeland, and often put into homes of other's choices. Often one or both parents had died, or some parents were too poor to keep all children. The lucky ones were adopted here into good families, but some families were mean and rough, and well, maybe just not parenting enough to bring a little joy into the little lives...But many others were put immediately into domestic or farm labour work as early as age ten & treated like slave labour...They are called British Home Children, and we hunt for them often on here, which I suppose is why we are getting quite good at the hunt for children....
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Alright who started without me? ;D
Although there has been alot of info found, I did see one thing about (Pickering/Ajax) Vicker's.
Pickering Ajax Digital Archive
http://www.pada.ca/search/results/?txt_a=Vickers
Gazetteer and directory of the county of Wellington, for 1871-2
http://www.ourroots.ca/e/toc.aspx?id=11294
Janice
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Wellington County Museum Archive
http://www.wcmaonline.on.ca/~collection/search/archives_web/srchitem.html
Wellington County Museum Collection
http://www.wcmaonline.on.ca/~collection/search/museum_web/srchitem.html
The early history of Elora, Ontario and vicinity
(Partial Book)
http://books.google.ca/books?id=jWpRIAuScXMC
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janice, good to see you..and nevr mind that we started without you, always good for new eyes to come on the scene. The links you posted for Wellington County Museum, just come up with Search Fields :(
And what fun I've had with the search fields ;D I got it. Sorry :)
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Interest waning...possibly...I don't know...
I have looked for a Jane McIntosh in 1871 Scotland Census, but haven't found one for definate that fits...
I don't know whether we found a date of immigration, I don't think we did...
We know she got married November 1872...and we know that in 1881, there are 5 children, : Nina 3, Meta 6 & Frank 0, then there's Tina/Trina aged 11, and another child (who would be Ann Maria, by the age but it certainly doesn't read either name) aged 8.
Karen found the 3 baptisms, and the same 3 have registered births on An***ry.
Jane McInotsh was presbyterian, so if she had a child in Canada, before marrying Francis she may well have baptised her in a presbyterian church, possibly Knox?
in 1891, Christina is unmarried, not living at home, and with a child, named Margaret McIntosh. Her siblings/halfsiblings are living with their father in Bruce county. This kind of leans towards the fact, that Christina was not his daughter, else why would she not being living with them, having a new baby?
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Hi, Janice ;D
Janice, that genealogical research, 1820-1999 ( File 6 Vickers) looks pretty interesting...If there is a good solid family tree in there...
Wish we had someone who could do a lookup...or are there suggestions as to where to ask?
Daisy Loo, who knows? ...but Francis was not successful with the Hotel business I believe I read in that earlier writeup...Did we find a death for Frank/Francis? The middle one that is ;)
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Possibly the "Archivist" could offer some suggestions. (Not sure)
http://www.wcm.on.ca/archive.php
Or
RAOGK - Ontario
(there is someone who will do public record lookups)
http://www.raogk.com/ontario.htm
Canada GenWeb Cemetery Project
http://cemetery.canadagenweb.org/ON/index.html#cemlist
Wellington County Historical Society
http://ist.uwaterloo.ca/~marj/history/wellington.html
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The Vickerage
(click on "How the House Got it's Name"
http://www.thevickerage.com/index.htm
(Sorry, just realized this information was found already)
The name of the hotel was the Royal Hotel
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Books that mention the "Royal Hotel in Elora"
The Annals of the town of Guelph, 1827-1877
http://www.ourroots.ca/e/toc.aspx?id=2872
Guelph : perspectives on a century of change, 1900-2000
http://www.ourroots.ca/e/toc.aspx?id=4925
History of Guelph, 1827-1927
http://www.ourroots.ca/e/toc.aspx?id=4496
Guelph Public Library
(There are photographs of the Royal Hotel)
http://www.library.guelph.on.ca/localhistory/genealogy.cfm#Land%20Records
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Have we come to a dead end?
I have a lot to go with, I'm going to take some time going through all the links you've all given me, and maybe send out a few emails.
I have a bit of a problem....the family story is, that Margaret was given up because the family were too poor, not that she was born to a single mother, the remaining son, is a Pastor! (Discovered this yesterday) so I am very reluctant in going to him....any suggestions?
Added: I have emailed Knox Church, Elora, to see if Margaret was baptised there.
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Books that mention the "Royal Hotel in Elora"
The Annals of the town of Guelph, 1827-1877
http://www.ourroots.ca/e/toc.aspx?id=2872
Guelph : perspectives on a century of change, 1900-2000
http://www.ourroots.ca/e/toc.aspx?id=4925
History of Guelph, 1827-1927
http://www.ourroots.ca/e/toc.aspx?id=4496
Guelph Public Library
(There are photographs of the Royal Hotel)
http://www.library.guelph.on.ca/localhistory/genealogy.cfm#Land%20Records
I believe those references in the Guelph books are the Royal Hotel that was located on Carden Street, not the Royal Hotel in Elora. I do have the original book of the History of Guelph 1827-1927. The Royal, was around for many years, and the building still exists. When I was moving away from Guelph my bon vogage dinner was there ;D
Karen
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Well we all deal with information in our own way, and the past is the past, the truth is the truth...but if you have
reservations, then don't tell him if you are uncomfortable...
I say we all run out to Elora and have a little vacation and research first hand ( I wish)
http://www.eloramews.com/site_map.html
It's a lovely looking town, quite appealing...maybe Christine just liked it there...and maybe she had more clientelle
there...The lady she stayed with could have been a friend of Jane's....who knows....
speculation...that's my middle name...No, as discussed previously I've got enuff names already, don't I?
Well, in thought let's all go to the Royal Hotel for a bubbly and think it all over...get your ats'n coats... ;D J.J.
here's the Royal:
http://www.elora.info/tourpage.php?pageNum_rstour=3&totalRows_rstour=20
some chewing gum for the eyes is all:
Handwritten business directory:
http://www.wcm.on.ca/tweedsmuir/pdf/TownshipofCentreWellington/EloraWI/1/214.pdf
http://www.wcm.on.ca/tweedsmuir/pdf/TownshipofCentreWellington/EloraWI/1/056.pdf
In 1870 the R.R. opened from Guelph to Elora...A three hour stagecoach trip now took 20 minutes!
Being a hotel owner, this would have opened up business a bit, and brought people to work in the mill, etc.
But by 1873 it reached so far that everyone had a piece of the pie...
so that must have been when business slowed. It was also one of SEVEN hotels operating in Elora at the time
(in 1871) http://www.uoguelph.ca/~sday/thesis/wellingtonKeepers6731.htm
There was a newspaper in town for a decade starting in 1870...The Elora Journeyman...
Wonder how extensive their newstaking was in those days?...also the Dumphries reformer reported weddings & such
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I noticed that the death reg for Christina gives her religion as Presb and birth place as Elora....all fingers crossed for a baptism at Knox Church.
Just in case, I looked up all Ross births under female and Christina with no hits. Ditto female Vickers and other spellings of McIntosh. Added....covered years 1869-1871.
The James, Jane, and Jane mentioned in an earlier thread as having arrived in Canada in 1867 appear to be in Toronto in 1881; the age of the elder Jane is mistranscribed.
Polarbear
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Just another interesting snippet...
It appears that Margaret Ross Vickers bryans (whatever her name really was!) used to work in a hotel in Elora...
she used to help the drunks, and sit with them until they were sober! (This was pre-marriage) I haven't cnfirmed that she was working in the Royal Hotel yet, but were there other hotels in Elora at the time?
Sorry JJ, missed that on your post....there were others :(
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Okay, I have put out feelers, and it seems they DID know that Margaret was illegitimate, and that it's okat to contact the son, even though he is a Pastor. So I shall write to him, and tell him what you have all found... who knows, there may be a birth cert of Margeret knocking around!
Thanks everyone for your help. If I hear anything back from Knox, I;ll let you know... ;D
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Just had another thought...I am sure I saw another Christina McIntosh somewhere on the census's...can't remember which one, but could we find a McIntosh/Webster marriage? This could explain the relationship of NEICE in the 1891 census, where Christina Vickers was living with Christina Webster.
Added: I have had a look, but can't find anything...I can't frind Christina in the 1871 census either. Grrrr....
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Just wanted to update, and add a couple of interesting things. I have written to the son, who is delighted that so much info has been found. It was quite a lot of info, so he's going to have a look through to see if anything else jogs his memory.
In the meantime, the grandson remembers, that apparently the Vickers were always after his grandmother (Margaret) to go to the Vickers Family Reunions, which she did, as did her daughter (who is also still living, and who is also being consulted!) It seems strange to me that the Vickers kept in contact, when they themselves didn't adopt her...unless it was her (half)siblings? The grandson suggested maybe if the living Vicker's were contacted, more information could be found. Any help with that, would be greatly appreciated :)
Thanks guys.
Edited: Getting her muddled with Christina now!
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Have just taken a closer look at the cemetery info Karen posted a while back.
There are a number of Vickers' with reference number WE-4289...
Christina M
Elizabeth
Francis
Jane
Jessie
Maria
Thomas
Thomas and Jessie were married
So were Francis and Jane
Maria was the first wife of Francis
I wonder who Elizabeth is and how she might fit into the picture, and when she died?
If these folks all have the same reference number, might it refer to a family plot?
Polarbear
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It sounds like it doesn't it, Polarbear :) good point!
I wonder if any of the family live near Elora...might ask one of them to pop along, and see what's written on the headstones. Could give a bit of info.
So, whoever Christina's father was, she was certainly considered a Vickers. I still can't get my head round why Margaret was adopted by "strangers" and not taken in by the family. How sad for her...poor little girl, at ten years old, losing her mum, and having to go live with strangers, when family were still around.
ALTHOUGH, reading some of the info that you good folk have posted, it seems that when Francis died, he left nothing, so maybe they couldn't afford to take in a child...stilll :(
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Actually When Francis's brother Thomas's wife died, I bet he was awefully lonely as they had no children.. :-\
But the home children I spoke of earlier often had aunts & uncles as well, so some people just don't
extend that extra hand, I guess...
Arthur Wellington ontario Eliza Vickers Frances & Sarah VICKERS not sur eif related somehow
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1891/001081-119.02-e.php?person_id_nbr=2957311
Adding that Thomas was 73 in 1901 so not a likely candidate....but there were 5 or 6 other siblings as well, who may have been younger than he was...
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McINTOSH, Jane Section B could be our Jane, as often if both names are down they can be transcribed as both
However we also have this one in that section: McINTOSH, Agnes M.
No Christine Webster listed at all
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hmmmm.Just did a bigger look through and there are LOTS of other surnames in section B so it is a large area within the cemetery methinks...
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Have just taken a closer look at the cemetery info Karen posted a while back.
I wonder who Elizabeth is and how she might fit into the picture, and when she died?
I think this is her......
Death Registration
Elizabeth Vickers
Date of Death: Jan. 28, 1899
AGe: 74
Address: Lot 29, Conc. 1
Occupation: Wife of George Vickers
Place of birth: Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Cause of Death: Paralysis
Reg. : Presbyterian
Person Making Return: John Thomposn
Division of West Garafraxa, County of Wellington
Karen
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That's very interesting, because the McIntosh'es came from Aberdeenshire...
I shall check on that when I return from visiting the in-laws :-X
Thanks Karen.... :)
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Oh, yes, Elspit...forgot that was another abbrev. for Elizabeth...George was the watchmaker in nearby Garafraxa / Fergus...That's why I figured he was related, as some of the family had worked for a watchmaker in England before moving to Canada. ( He was with a "May" in 1852, so not sure if both are one in the same person...children George Jr. also a watchmaker & Susan... )
also if someone could look into those 2 publication there may be more information on the family
http://www.wcm.on.ca/archives_family-r.php
http://204.9.225.200/Eng/Library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=366228&disp=The+Vickers+connection
Here's a great publication! The Province of Ontario Gazetteer and Directory 1869
http://books.google.ca/books?id=z6wOAAAAYAAJ&printsec=titlepage#PPP1,M1
Francis a teamster, so business slowed for hauling by horse & cart? as soon railway goes through & he buys Hotel from brother...who on here owns the Hotel he recently built... and George, watchmaker in Fergus...
I know you'll see Samuel Webster the tinsmith, & he wasn't husband to Christine...She might have been an unmarried sister, but we never did place her either...Seems the less you know about people = the less you'll find...
Ugh No..silly me, she's a widow on the censuses...so sister in law
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Am really quite put out! The Knox Church have replied to me, saying they can't help me, due to Freedom of Info & Privacy Laws!!!
I did email her back, and maybe she might help me further...but that seems obsurd!
Unless it confirms that it WAS an illigimate birth, and that's why she won't tell me?
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Hi Daisy,
No, that's the norm here now, well at least the past few years. I tried to get my dad's baptism for him and was told the same thing, needless to say I got it in the end referring his comments to her ;D
Did you look at those marriages I pm'd you?
Karen
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Karen, I must confess, I saw them yesterday, and forgot all about them.. :-[ :-\ .I shall have a closer look tonight though.
There must be connections though...
Thank you for still looking...
When I emailed her back, I asked if permission/letter from Margaret's grandson would help get the info...
How silly though, things being kept quiet still after over 100 years.
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Just had another thought...I am sure I saw another Christina McIntosh somewhere on the census's...can't remember which one, but could we find a McIntosh/Webster marriage? This could explain the relationship of NEICE in the 1891 census, where Christina Vickers was living with Christina Webster.
Added: I have had a look, but can't find anything...I can't frind Christina in the 1871 census either. Grrrr....
Marriage Registration for:
William McIntosh
Age: 35 years
Residence when married: Guelph Township
Place of birth: Scotland
Occupation: Farmer
Parents: William McIntosh and Ann Spence
Christina Webster
Age: 27 years
Residence when married: Guelph
Place of Birth: Scotland
Widow
Parents: Alexander Webster & Christina Singer
Witnessess: Alexander Webster, Belleville & Helen Duthrie, Guelph Twp.
Date of Marriage: April 20, 1874, Guelph
Religion of both: Presb.
Reg. No. 009078
County of Wellington
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Karen you are amazing...so the most that Jane & she might have been would be cousins, then perhaps...Oh, my...
but was she born to a brother or sister....
The only one on the IGI is a Margaret, Oct 17th, 1824 ...Rhynie And Essie, Aberdeen, Scotland
parents William McIntosh and Ann Spence...
Ooops just looked at the 1891 again, tho, and Christina Webster was 75 then so born circa 1816 :-\
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Just out of curiosity, I was wondering why Christina had her picture taken in Toronto? Could she have gone there to give birth?
Karen
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Well, wherever Margaret was born, she was definately in Elora...look what I got in the post today!
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Am really quite put out! The Knox Church have replied to me, saying they can't help me, due to Freedom of Info & Privacy Laws!!!
I did email her back, and maybe she might help me further...but that seems obsurd!
Unless it confirms that it WAS an illigimate birth, and that's why she won't tell me?
Since when are baptismal records covered by privacy laws? Even if privacy laws did cover baptism records, isn't the one you are looking for from over 100 years ago? If so, it wouldn't be covered. I think someone at the Knox Church is just being lazy and is using that as an excuse not to look up the record or they misread your email and thought you were asking for a look up from the latter part of the 1900s instead of the 1800s.
Jacquie
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Oh, the little dear and her uncomfortable button tie shoes...Isn't she just a doll. Who do you belong to dear? :P :-\
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Hi, Jacquie...we posted together... Does seem idiotic, doesn't it? would it concern the adoption perhaps, but even so is there a law governing disclosure after a century plus? Or are they just being lazy as you say...
Didn't the other info come from Knox?
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You guys have lost me again....
Have I got this right...that Christina Singer, could have been the Christina Webster, making Jane a possible sibling of William McIntosh ie, like an aunt-in-law?
Guys, I just want to apologise if I am not with you 100% at the moment...have loads going on, have family connections coming out of the woodwork in all sorts of directions (mainly from Canada) which is all great, Fantastic in fact, but it makes for confusion like no other! Never mind when real life has to take a front seat!
Thank you all again though for helping me....if there were flower icons, I would give you all flowers :)
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No, the other info came from the Anglican Church (which I did say to the lady who emailed me, that I had gotten baptism records from them, for the same family)
I don't think it would be relating to the adoption, I think it would relate to her being illigitmate....
Jacquie, (Hiya :) ) I don't the lady was being lazy, coz she looked up stuff at the museum, and sent me links for McIntosh'es, from Guelph..(link below)...she seemed very helpful otherwise...but she said there was still a living family of mcIntishes attending the church today...could be she feels she's protecting them?
http://www.wcm.on.ca/tweedsmuir/results_name.php?start=9&township=0&name_last=McIntosh&name_first=
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It's only been a couple of years in Ontario this new privacy law. Prior to that I could call up a church get information, call a funeral home no problem at all, they would give me the information. Now, nothing. Gone are the days when I would call up a funeral home and get a Funeral Directors' Statement of Death, for any time period. The churches are the same way now, unless you get some that don't mind bending the rules a little bit.
Karen
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What would be the way around it? Who exactly are the privacy laws protecting, if it's family that are asking for it?
grr...
I'm heading off to bed now...cheers guys...
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No rest for the wicked...one person after another came online...anyway...
I had another chat today with grandson, who has been pumping family members for me...
What you have all found, appears to be correct, in so far as:
Margaret AND Christina were BOTH baptised at KNOX
Margaret apparently remembered her years living with Aunty Webster
Christina died of a burst appendix
Margaret got very sick (they don't know what of yet) as a child, which is why Christina never married ( ???)
It seems that Frank Vickers was an uncle of Margaret (so def right family, with TINA, 1891)
And there was a relative of Christina involved in the shoemaking/repair business as well (have we found that out?)
There's another grand-daughter around that has done some family research, and I'm hopefully getting connected with her. I'd like to find more info about Jane, now that we have confirmed that she was Christina's mother. I can do that via An****y, from the scotland records.
So I guess, we have found the end to this mystery in a way...but will let you know any other details, if they are relevant.
thanks again everyone :) :-* :-* :-*
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What a lovely picture :)
Too bad the Baptisms aren't being forthcoming .
Glad things are coming together from other information.
Polarbear
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so we have the right mom and the right family in Francis, as his son Frank was considered an uncle...
So Christine was raised in that family at least...
no Christina may be a direct aunt, but born a little too soon for my liking ( 816 - 1819 ) as the others are 40's and 50's births...
so, might she be a great aunt...ie sister to Jane's dad rather than to Jane?
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Rounding out some more information in case it rings a bell
McIntosh in Wellington Ctr. in 1881
Isabella McIntosh 1815 / Scotland / widow...right in Elora...was her husband related?
James McIntosh 1845 / Scotland / Carpenter in nearby Fergus I thought for a bit that he might be
a brother to Jane...maybe met Vickers through carpentry
Alexander McIntosh 1846 / Scotland / Carpenter in nearby Pilkington so same thought re: builders...
William McIntosh 1814 / Scotland / farmerin nearby Pilkington
Andrew Vickers b. 1831 Eng/ labourer / Maryborough, Wellington Nort
in 1852 a John Vickers b. c 1815 England was a musician ( Musision )
but I just found this, apparently he is a weaver later if same one? http://genforum.com/vickers/messages/1247.html
funny I never thought to google information before...
Although on same census Francis is a teamster in Brantford , Brant so there may have been more outside Welligton dist.
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speaking of which I can't believe I didn't ever see this?
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=rmbtoronto&recno=12249
( mind you most names are taken from census, and IGI )
( also didn't know how to deal with Christine...thank goodness for the image so we could see "trina" or "tina")
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speaking of which I can't believe I didn't ever see this?
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=rmbtoronto&recno=12249
( mind you most names are taken from census, and IGI )
( also didn't know how to deal with Christine...thank goodness for the image so we could see "trina" or "tina")
Dates of birth are a bit out too!
I see you are continuing to dig JJ! :) I am grateful.
Just an update really, the "Elder" has come back to me re: Knowx Church, and she said she is passing the info to the Church Historian to see if he can find "any such baptism" - I replied and thanked her, and told her that it had been confirmed by the family, that not only was Margaret baptised there, but her mother too. So there is hope yet that I may get some more info.
As far as I can see from the scottish census's, Jane only had one brother, a William. I will check him out to see if I can find him settled in Scotland, DOB etc.
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Christine still might be on the 1852 census, as I found a glitch in there today...
Go look for Thomas Vickers, the carpenter......then see his wife, Jessy ? well she is not on the list of Vickers ..because they never transcribed her with a surname!!! Wonder how many others are missing like that?
Because they are listed with surname, the database won't find them...Angus Angus and his whole family appear to be missing for the same reason...
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Well, thank goodness I didn't accept "no" the first time round...nt only did the lady herself give me the info, but she scanned the baptism book, and sent me the pics!
Here you go:
The funny thing is, she sent me the whole page of the book! (not very priivate for other people! ::) :o )
The second pic, shows Frank Vickers as Christina's father!
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What great news! I am very pleased for you :)
Polarbear
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so I'm thinking, was she in England before she came out? Duh,,,there's a Winterbourne about 12 miles from Elora in Woolwich, Waterloo....so perhaps her birth (Christina's) can be found there...I imagine the trains opened up all kinds of avenues if you know what I mean, nudge nudge wink wink....
Anyway she probably laid low preggies & then with the baby for a while until they married a wee bit later...although I'm sure all the townspeople knew about it anyway...She might be going by middle name on the 1871, who knows.
Actually, she may well have been with the also absent Christine Webster
Thanks for finishing it up that we got the right papa...It was pretty certain we were on with Jane, but her absense prior to marriage made it tough to know for sure...
Nice going every one. I really enjoyed this thread, and hope Jane, Christine & Margaret forgive our nosiness...
Hope they had good lives, that's all that counts, really...
:D Big Hugs to all, J.J.
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Hi.
I'm the grandaughter of Maggie McIntosh (Bryans) and great-grandaughter of Christina McIntosh Vickers. What information are you looking for?
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The picture of the little girl standing by the chair is not my grandmother Maggie, that is her mother Christina McIntosh Vickers
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Welcome to Rootschat, Sheri... This is a 15 YR. OLD thread, so not sure if Daisy Loo is still available as she's not been active on here for 7 years...but I'll contact her through personal message to see if she is available to join in. (May have changed email addresses) In the meanwhile, you could read through all the pages from the beginning to see what information we found despite the incomplete resources we had back then! ( 8) Biased, but I think we all did rather well! 8)) All the best J.J.
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Hi JJ,
Wow, I had no idea how old the post was. How are you related to my family? I do alot of research mostly on Ancestry. I'm not familiar with this platform but will try. I'm in Canada. Where are you from?
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JJ I am still online and using the same email address I would love a reply on any of my threads old or new :D
Hi Sheri,
You reply as much as you like if none of us took a chance in life with anything we would not get very far !! So long as a member has not changed email address they will be notified of a reply ;)
Regards
Sarah
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Hello Sarah...I think you've misunderstood my replies. I often contact people who haven't replied yet, as notifications can get turned off when the site gets busy. It happens all the time!!! I did contact Daisy Loo & she's not yetanswered me, or the post. She's not been on here for many years as I'd said earlier.
The post you deleted for some reason was a reply to Sheri?
a recent reply to one of my personal messages letting someone know about a reply on their thread
...Thank you 🙏🏼 that’s kind of you to let me know
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Hi Sheri, I'll answer your question again...
I am not related, although some of the replies you find on the thread might be from relatives...Usually they identify themselves as such in their first reply. Those that answered are mostly Rootschatters from Canada, but many also popped in from other countries as well to add their expertise to the mix! Have you read through the entire thread? I only read a few pages in, but saw that we were enjoying the hunt immensely! Had a wee tear when I saw Liverpool Annie replied as she's no longer with us. ( many of us have been on here a couple of decades or more!)
Enjoy the site. There are instructions on the main forum page & a search at the top of the page ( try different spellings ) All the best J.J.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php