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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Gaille on Tuesday 24 February 09 01:09 GMT (UK)
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Did anyone see this on Northwest Tonight this evening?
Apparently children playing in a Churchyard in Over Darwen saw this Headstone & asked the Vicar about it because of the amount for grandchildren it said the man had.
Northwest tonight & the Vicar are trying to locate any relatives of the couple - anyone out there claim them??
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/puffbox/hyperpuff/audiovideo/england/7906862.stm
Edit: just paused it to get the names............
"Alice wife of Richard Townley - Mother of 15 Children"
"Richard Townley - Died January 16th 1837 - Aged 85 Years - Grandfather of 175 Children"
Gaille
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Well according to Genuki ....DARWEN (Over) is a town in Blackburn parish, Lancashire.
On IGI there is a possible marriage record of a Richard Townley marrying an Alice Walsh on 15 Mar 1778 Blackburn, Lancashire.........too bad he died before the 1841 census and I suppose Alice predeceased him :-\
Really interesting that someone made note of his grandchildren...must have been a local celeb in his day ;D
mab
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Well according to Genuki ....DARWEN (Over) is a town in Blackburn parish, Lancashire.
On IGI there is a possible marriage record of a Richard Townley marrying an Alice Walsh on 15 Mar 1778 Blackburn, Lancashire.........too bad he died before the 1841 census and I suppose Alice predeceased him :-\
Really interesting that someone made note of his grandchildren...must have been a local celeb in his day ;D
mab
Found Alices death on the Lancashire online Parish Clerk site....
Burial: 29 Nov 1812 Darwen Chapel (Now St James), Darwen, Lancashire, England
Alice Townley - Wife of Richard Townley
Abode: Over Darwen
These could be some of their Children .............
Baptism: 16 May 1784 Darwen Chapel (Now St James), Darwen, Lancashire, England
Alice Townley - Dau of Richard Townley & Alice
Abode: Lower Darwen
Burial: 14 Jun 1785 Darwen Chapel (Now St James), Darwen, Lancashire, England
Alice Townley - Dau of Rich'd Townley & Alice
Abode: Lower Darwen
Baptism: 1 Mar 1789 Darwen Chapel (Now St James), Darwen, Lancashire, England
Alice Townley - Dau of Rich'd Townley & Alice
Abode: Lower Darwen
Baptism: 29 Sep 1782 Darwen Chapel (Now St James), Darwen, Lancashire, England
Betty Townley - Dau of Richard Townley & Alice
Abode: Lower Darwen
Baptism: 29 Nov 1812 Darwen Chapel (Now St James), Darwen, Lancashire, England
George Townley - Son of Thomas Townley & Alice
Abode: Lower Darwen
Baptism: 29 Nov 1812 Darwen Chapel (Now St James), Darwen, Lancashire, England
Rhoda Townley - Dau of Tho's Townley & Alice
Abode: Lower Darwen
Baptism: 5 Jul 1794 Darwen Chapel (Now St James), Darwen, Lancashire, England
Rich'd Townley - Son of Rich'd Townley & Alice
Abode: Over Darwen
Baptism: 3 Jun 1787 Darwen Chapel (Now St James), Darwen, Lancashire, England
Townley Townley - Son of Rich'd Townley & Alice
Abode: Lower Darwen
Baptism: 2 Jan 1786 Darwen Chapel (Now St James), Darwen, Lancashire, England
Tho's Townley - Son of Richard Townley & Alice
Abode: Lower Darwen
Burial: 27 Dec 1800 Darwen Chapel (Now St James), Darwen, Lancashire, England
Izabel Townley - Dau of Richard & Alice
Abode: Over Darwen
These are the only ones on the list with parents names listed in the info.
One if the 175 Grandchildren!
Baptism: 6 Apr 1806 Darwen Chapel (Now St James), Darwen, Lancashire, England
Richard Townley - Son of Townley Townley & Ellen
Abode: Over Darwen
Gaille
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Alice died 1812 and he died 1837....goodness :-\ He obviously was a very robust gentleman....I wonder if he remarried :)
mab
added: doing the maths....15 children that possibly all lived....highly unlikely but maybe they took after their dad....175 grandchildren that would be possibly 11.66 children for each child :-X :P :-\
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Hi Gaille
I watched it last night as well, was totally amazed at the record. Bet not many families nowadays could match that :o
Must have something to do with the long, dark cold nights in "them there hills" ;D
Nice finds as well on the parish clerk site
Ken
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Just out of curiosity I checked the BT phone book.
Townley name comes up 7 times in Darwen and Blackburn areas.
Wonder if any of them saw the news clip.
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I am struggling with this! Although I'm not doubting that Alice had 15 children, I have only found ten definites and one possible. Two of the definites died as infants and another possibly died in his teens.
I have traced three children, who each had seven children - maybe more, of course.
I wonder when the headstone was erected? If it was erected in 1837 when Richard died, I would think it virtually impossible that he had 175 grandchildren at that stage. I wonder if the stone should have said "175 grandchildren and GREAT grandchildren" as that would make a lot more sense.
Also puzzling me - there is no mention of this family in Jeremy Hunt's book. I am positive that such a large family would have been known to him and he dictated his memoirs in 1887, so most of the "grandchildren" would still have been alive.
Interesting puzzle and I may try to solve it when I have more time!
oldecrone
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i wonder if Richard remarried after Alices death and then had more children?
just a thought
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Richard Townley came from Lower Darwen, he wasn't a Darrener. Upper Chapel or St James's as it now is was nearer to him than St Mary's Church in Blackburn which was the Parish Church at that time. This is where he married.
I have found 10 definite children, two of whom died young.
The eldest was baptised in Sharples, Bolton. The others that I found were baptised in St James so there could be other children baptised elsewhere.
Pauline
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do you think possibly the census might yield some clues for his children?
and definitely his grandchildren
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so can we list the Children y.o.b & p.o.b so we can try to find the 175 grandchildren
we have
Alice 1784 Darwen bur 1785
Alice 1789 do.
Betty 1782
Richard 1794
Townley 1787
Thomas 1786
Izabel 1800
all children of Richard & Alice
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children of Thomas & Alice
George 1812
Rhoda 1812
__
Peggy
B: 29 MAR 1824 Christening: 15 AUG 1824 Over Darwen Pole Lane Independent, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
d/o MARK TOWNLEY & MARY
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ALICE TOWNLEY
Birth: 17 AUG 1811 Christening: 15 OCT 1811 Over Darwen Lower Chapel Independent, Blackburn,d/o JOHN TOWNLEY & BETTY
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I have the following:
Betty bap 29 Sept 1782
Alice bap 16 May 1784 buried 14 Jan 1785
Thomas bap 2 Jan 1786
Townley bap 3 Jun 1787 married Ellen Drapers 15 Sept 1805
Alice bap 1 Mar 1789
John bap 22 Sept 1790 ( a possible burial, 1809, or married Betty Marsden, 7 children)
Richard bap 5 July 1794, m Mary, 7 children
Mark born 17 Sept 1796, bap 10 October)two poss marriages, both on 1841, so two different men. 8 children?
Michael bap 1 Jan 1799 born Sharples
Izabel dob not found, buried 27 Dec 1800.
No births found after 1800, but possibly not yet transcribed on LAN-OPC.
Another possible child, Christopher - he is a witness to one of the Mark marriages, and the other marriage is witnessed by someone called Walsh!
I have looked for a second mariage for Richard senior, but there are none described as widower...not foolproof, I know.
Oldecrone
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so can we list the Children y.o.b & p.o.b so we can try to find the 175 grandchildren
we have
Alice 1784 Darwen bur 1785
Alice 1789 do.
Betty 1782
Richard 1794
Townley 1787
Thomas 1786
Izabel 1800
all children of Richard & Alice
__
children of Thomas & Alice
George 1812
Rhoda 1812
__
Peggy
B: 29 MAR 1824 Christening: 15 AUG 1824 Over Darwen Pole Lane Independent, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
d/o MARK TOWNLEY & MARY
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ALICE TOWNLEY
Birth: 17 AUG 1811 Christening: 15 OCT 1811 Over Darwen Lower Chapel Independent, Blackburn,d/o JOHN TOWNLEY & BETTY
Toni, you seem to be missing some.
If you look up at my previous post there are more:
Baptism: 29 Sep 1782 - Betty Townley - Dau of Richard Townley & Alice
Baptism: 16 May 1784 - Alice Townley - Dau of Richard Townley & Alice
Burial: 14 Jun 1785 - Alice Townley - Dau of Rich'd Townley & Alice
Baptism: 2 Jan 1786 - Thomas Townley - Son of Richard Townley & Alice
Baptism: 3 Jun 1787 - Townley Townley - Son of Rich'd Townley & Alice
Baptism: 1 Mar 1789 - Alice Townley - Dau of Rich'd Townley & Alice
Baptism: 5 Jul 1794 - Richard Townley - Son of Rich'd Townley & Alice
Burial: 27 Dec 1800 - Izabel Townley - Dau of Richard & Alice
Baptism: 29 Nov 1812 - George Townley - Son of Thomas Townley & Alice
Baptism: 29 Nov 1812 - Rhoda Townley - Dau of Tho's Townley & Alice
I could only find a Burial for Izabel, not a Baptism so maybe she was an older child born elsewhere?
Gaille
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so can we list the Children y.o.b & p.o.b so we can try to find the 175 grandchildren
we have
Alice 1784 Darwen bur 1785
Alice 1789 do.
Betty 1782
Richard 1794
Townley 1787
Thomas 1786
Izabel 1800
all children of Richard & Alice
__
children of Thomas & Alice
George 1812
Rhoda 1812
__
Peggy
B: 29 MAR 1824 Christening: 15 AUG 1824 Over Darwen Pole Lane Independent, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
d/o MARK TOWNLEY & MARY
__
ALICE TOWNLEY
Birth: 17 AUG 1811 Christening: 15 OCT 1811 Over Darwen Lower Chapel Independent, Blackburn,d/o JOHN TOWNLEY & BETTY
Toni, you seem to be missing some.
If you look up at my previous post there are more:
Baptism: 29 Sep 1782 - Betty Townley - Dau of Richard Townley & Alice
Baptism: 16 May 1784 - Alice Townley - Dau of Richard Townley & Alice
Burial: 14 Jun 1785 - Alice Townley - Dau of Rich'd Townley & Alice
Baptism: 2 Jan 1786 - Thomas Townley - Son of Richard Townley & Alice
Baptism: 3 Jun 1787 - Townley Townley - Son of Rich'd Townley & Alice
Baptism: 1 Mar 1789 - Alice Townley - Dau of Rich'd Townley & Alice
Baptism: 5 Jul 1794 - Richard Townley - Son of Rich'd Townley & Alice
Burial: 27 Dec 1800 - Izabel Townley - Dau of Richard & Alice
Baptism: 29 Nov 1812 - George Townley - Son of Thomas Townley & Alice
Baptism: 29 Nov 1812 - Rhoda Townley - Dau of Tho's Townley & Alice
I could only find a Burial for Izabel, not a Baptism so maybe she was an older child born elsewhere?
Gaille
Opps!
Ok ignore the last two! I posted two grandchildren in as Children by accident !
Teach me to try & multi task on the OPC (I was looking for some of MY darwin family when I decided to look at this one too!
Gaille
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How interesting
My grandfather was one of 16 but they didn't all live I did find 6 buried with their parents
I know my mother had lots of cousins . So it's maybe possible that the great grandchildren are counted with the grandchildren
Saying that the head stone looks in very good condition and is readable not like some I have found
has it been re-printed I wonder
Elizabeth
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ISABELLA TOWNLEY
Christening: 28 DEC 1794 Saint Mary, Lancaster,
d/o RICHARD TOWNLEY & BETTY
:)
(she died 1800 :'( )
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all children of Richard & Betty
ISABELLA TOWNLEY - as before : 28 DEC 1794 Saint Mary, Lancaster,
BETTY TOWNLEY -: 18 NOV 1787 Saint Mary, Lancaster, Lancashire, England
THOMAS TOWNLEY - 23 OCT 1791 Saint Mary, Lancaster,
RICHARD TOWNLEY -: 29 NOV 1789 Saint Mary, Lancaster,
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It couldn't be the Richard Townley in St James's Churchyard. His wife was Alice.
He did have a son Richard born 1794, to young to be a father at this time.
Alice didn't die until 1812 and she was having children
at least until 1799.
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you don't think he could have lead a double life or practiced a faith where they take many wives? otherwise the possibility of him having 175 grandhcildren does seem a little extreme
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I meant to tell you, the grave stone hasn't been re-done. It is in original state. There are two other stones with a couple of his children in which are also very well preserved.
Pauline
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My g-g-grandfather was one of 22 children. Only 2 died in infancy. All the others grew into adulthood and had children of their own. I have never counted them. Some of the 22 were twins, 4 sets if I remember correctly.
Large families weren't unusual in those times (no television to keep them occupied) ;)
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yes i know large families were not uncommon but what i was saying is that if all Alice 15 children survived (they didnt) they would have to have an average of 11.66 children
of course it says Richard had 175 grandchildren and not Alice so was thinking about more children possibly with Betty and them having children
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Wow
and only two died that is remarkable
Nice that the headstones are in good condition
Thats a thing you look for when searching as you know some you cannot read
My late brothers is a white scroll and my Dad used to have to paint it with lead paint I would hate to try and its a shame its unreadable
I got a quote but it was too expensive for me to pay out
you are all doing well finding this family it would be great if you do find a relative
A bit like our Robert Stead last year
Elizabeth
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likewise it doesn’t say Richard is the father of all Alice 15 children
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Richard and Betty - who had Izobel - are a different couple, and are on the 1841 census. the two Richards were probably cousins and both had a daughter called Izobel.
I was wondering if Richard was married BEFORE he married Alice, although there is not a suitable marriage that I can find. If Alice was a similar age to Richard, then she would be more or less at the limit of her natural fertility by 1800? Pity her gae isn't on the tombstone!
Also there is a worrying gap between marriage (1778) and the first found child, Betty, baptised 1782. I would have thought there would have been a couple of children before that date. So far we have only accounted for ten of a possible 15 children.
oldecrone
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A bit more...someone on Ancestry has Richard Townley in their tree. They don't know much about him but they DO cite his will (worth someone's while to get that I should think) and mentions a daughter Ann who died before 1837.
Richard Townley baptised 15 April 1754 Tockholes Chapel, parents Thomas Townley and Mary unknown.
Thomas fits nicely with Richard's first known son. So, we are looking for an Ann who died before 1837 and probably a Mary, too.
Richard died in Oswaldtwistle, according to the Will.
oldecrone
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This post is 10 years old so I hope someone finds it and can use the information provided.
I have traced my paternal line up to my 5th great grandfather. I have some details that may or may not be relevant to this post. His name is :
Richard Townley (1752 - 1809)
Born in Blackburn.
Married a Mary Thornber on
4 Feb 1782 at St. Mary, Blackburn, Lancashire, England.
Marriage certificate says both
'of Livesey, Blackburn'
Died in 1809 and registered burial on
4 Dec 1809 at the Parish -
Blackburn, St Mary the Virgin, Lancashire, England.
Mary Thornber (1759 - 1793)
Buried 25 May 1793 in
Blackburn. Spouse name Richard.
She died Mary Townley.
So far I have these known children:
Mary Townley (1789 - 1807)
Buried 26 Apr 1807.
At Blackburn, St Mary the Virgin, Lancashire, England
Fathers name Richard Townley.
Arthur Townley (1785 - 1854)
Born in Darwen, Lancashire.
Baptised 19 Sep 1785 at
Parish: Blackburn.
Married Margeret Bolton on
29 Dec 1810 in Blackburn.
Buried 12 Jan 1854 in Manchester.
Arthur's my 4 x Great Grandfather.
His two first borns were
Richard Townley - 1820
Mary Ann Townley - 1820.
I still have some way to go yet in finding out his parents.
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This post is 10 years old so I hope someone finds it and can use the information provided.
I have traced my paternal line up to my 5th great grandfather. I have some details that may or may not be relevant to this post. His name is :
Richard Townley (1752 - 1809)
Born in Blackburn.
Married a Mary Thornber on
4 Feb 1782 at St. Mary, Blackburn, Lancashire, England.
Marriage certificate says both
'of Livesey, Blackburn' which is not far from tockholes.
Here's what I have to share.
Birth of Daughter Ann Townley
Jun 1773 • Livesey, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Birth of Daughter Betty Townley
Sep 1774 • Livesey, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Birth of Son Roger Townley
Sep 1778 • Livesey, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Marriage
6 Jan 1782 • St. Mary, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Mary Thornber
(1759–1793)
Birth of Daughter Ellen Townley
May 1782 • Livesey, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Birth of Son Arthur Townley
(1783–1854)
Sep 1783 • Darwen, Lancashire, England
Birth of Daughter Mary Townley
(1789–1807)
17 Dec 1789 • Livesey, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Birth of Son John Townley
25 Dec 1790 • Livesey, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Birth of Son Richard Townley
Nov 1792 • Livesey, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Death of Wife Mary Thornber
(1759–1793)
25 May 1793 • Blackburn, St Mary the Virgin, Lancashire, England
Death of Daughter Mary Townley (1789–1807)
26 Apr 1807 • Blackburn, St Mary the Virgin, Lancashire, England
Death of Father Richard Townley
Nov 1809 • Blackburn, St Mary the Virgin, Lancashire, England
Burial Richard Townley
4 Dec 1809 • Blackburn, St Mary, Lancashire, England
I'm not saying this is the exact Richard and Alice with 175 grandchildren but I do think it is the same family of Townleys as mine.
When I get more details and children I will modify this post and continue adding.
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It is possible i suppose that it could be the same family but without further research into the news article of that day and learning more about the source it is unlikely I can make a connection to mine.
Big families were the norm back then.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are lots of super sized families.