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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: xxFlyspotxx on Monday 23 February 09 04:06 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find some information on a George Gibson, my grandfather, who lived in Kings Cross as an artist in a terrace house shared with other men around 1910-1925? Served in WW1 so I am told ain the Army as a sniper from what my mother has told me...But can't seem to find any record of him in army files..seems we can't even find a marriage certificate for him to my grandmother either! Maybe there's some skeletons somewhere and no-one is talking...
He was supposedly married to Elizabeth Richards and they had 3 children, a daughter and two sons. They moved to the Newcastle area where they raised there kids.George Gibson was said to have worked at the BHP in Newcastle but still can't find any records there either......Have traced all othere sides of family tree and to think my grandfather seems to appear invisible is frustrating to us all...Please help
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Hi Flyspot :)
Welcome to Rootschat :D
Is this your mother's father that you are looking for? Does she have a copy of her own birth certificate? This would (hopefully) clear up whether or not Elizabeth Richards was married at the time of your mother's birth, and might show her father's name.
Have you gone through all the George Gibsons in the WW1 personnel dossiers on the NAA website?
Of course George Gibson may be an assumed name...anyway, your mum's birth certificate would be the sensible starting point :)
Cheers
Prue
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Thanx for your reply Prue.....I have problems getting anything from my mum as she has alzheimers and we can't seem to find any documents she has . She is from the old school where you don''t tell family businessetc...Its going to be a tuff one to crack..LOL
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Hi Flyspot,
My fathers side is exactly the same as yours, they will not discuss info either, so i am prob never going to find my grandfather either
Daizi
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hi again
on the NAA site, there is a George Gibson, with N O K a Elizabeth Gibson, well i think 2 , one of them the Elizabeth is his mother, but the other has not been digitised, (maybe him ) says his dob 1923 in NSW.....
which brings me to the next questions..... was Goerge born in NSW ? or even OZ, do you have his death certificate, should have some details on there eg..marriage status and how long ? Could it be Elizabeth's 2nd marriage and her maiden name RIchards, but married under married name ? sorry to do this, just thinking aloud .......
Daizi
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Thanx Dazzi...
Can't be him tho the info seems ironic.....he was in WW! so thats before that birthdate..LOL
George Gibson would have died somewhere around 1956? and Elizabeth Gibson (my grandmother) in 1957/58 in Newcastle.NSW.Aus
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There's only one Elizabeth Gibson in the NSW Deaths Index who died in Newcastle between 1950 and 1960. She died in 1960. Unfortunately , her parents' names are not listed.
And there are three George Gibsons who died in Newcastle between those years.
You can check for yourself at http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/search.htm
It may be that your only way forward is to get hold of a copy of your mother's birth certificate.
Another thought is to try to contact one of the sons and see if they have any more information.
Dee
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Thanx deeiluka....I know who Elizabeth Gibsons parents are...its Elizabeth husband George that is the mystery.....have another clue tho...he was believed to have been born in Windsor outside of Sydney.....but the Gibson surname may be phony......seems he has a cousin with a different surname and their dads were brothers? LOL..
One of the sons died last year and the other is aged and an not well, his memory's are useless.....seems I remeber more than he does...
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Hi Fly
The reason that Dee suggested getting your Elizabeth's birth cert, was although you have her parents, it will give you other info, confirm marriage ect,
Daizi
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The death certificate of Elizabeth may also hold valuable information. :D
Any idea when they first lived in Newcastle?
There are two George Gibsons in Mayfield, Newcastle in the 1936 Electoral Roll.......but neither of them has an Elizabeth at the same address. One has Eleanor and the other Margaret.
There's also George in Hamilton, Newcastle....but he has Muriel at the same address. :-\
Dee
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Dee,
I know they moved to South Cardiff into Fourth St around 1930-40's? then moved to Wickham..I know my mum Dagmar attended Wickham girls High. She is the first born for George and Elizabeth.
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Hello there and welcome to roots chat
I am assuming your mother is elderly? please don't tell us when she wa born though for privacy reasons. Wouldn't she have need a birth document?
Are her siblings still alive?
was your grandmothers maiden name Richards?
Jenn
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One of the Deaths in Newcastle for George Gibson says aged 66 years
Wickham Newcastle in 1959
Jenn
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thanx Jenn.....I was a cpl years out..
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Jenn....have you got the details that could be on the NSW death certificate handy? Posting those might be a help..... :D
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Jen
No I don't....am having them sent to me by mail.....will take a few days..I am in WA and papers coming from Newcastle
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Hi there Dee
here is what you can expect to see on a certificate from NSw
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This will help people to know what is on a certificate they may be thinking about ordering from NSW
Certificate Content
The content of standard certificates vary depending on how the information was recorded. In some instances, many of the marriage registers, particularly from 1856 - 1890's, do not show all particulars. Some of the entries were updated in the past based on information supplied by the church societies. There are still many that have missing information and it is advisable to contact the church in question who may have the information on their chuch record.
In general, more recent standard birth, death and marriage certificates include the following information.
Birth Certificates
Full name, sex, date and place of birth
Mother's details including full name and maiden name, age, occupation, place of birth
Father's details including full name, age, occupation, place of birth
Date and place of parent's marriage
Previous children of the relationship
Death Certificates
Full name, sex and age, date and place of death, place of residence, usual occupation and marital status at date of death
Place of marriage, age when married, full name of spouse
Children's name and ages
Parent's names including mother's maiden name
Cause of death and duration of last illness
Burial or cremation date and place
Marriage Certificates
Bridegroom's full name, occupation, place of residence, conjugal status, place and date of birth, age, father's name and mother's maiden name
Bride's full name, occupation, place of residence, conjugal status, place and date of birth, age, father's name and mother's maiden name
Celebrant's name and witnesses
Please note that the Early Church Records of baptisms, burials and marriages (1788 - 1855) only have limited information, usually names of parties, date and place of event.
Information from the NSW registery of Birth Death and Marriages
XXFlyspotXX
are you expecting some certificates?
Jenn
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Yes....the death certificate of my grandfather......and my mothers birth one
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That's great news. Hopefully there will be some more clues for you on them. :D
Dee
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am not giving up...will keep fingers crossed this info will help me
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There are only 19 results for Gibson in Wickham in 1930 and 1936 Electoral Rolls......and not one of them is a George or an Elizabeth....... :-\
So maybe they went there after 1936, or as you said, a different name may have been used......
Dee
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damn this is getting frustrating....seems my mothers birth certificate states a date for her parents marriage but there is no such record of the marriage.
All I know now is that George was born 39yrs old when mum was born in 1930 so that puts his yea of birth at 1891? in Windsor Sydney? again...no records.
its possible Georges father was William, a irish convict at Cole river in Newcastle? the other name I couldn't remember yesterday of the uncle was Clifford.....maybe I should start there?
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What is the date given for the marriage, as per your mum's birth cert? What other info does it give re. George's occupation etc.?
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its possible Georges father was William, a irish convict at Cole river in Newcastle? the other name I couldn't remember yesterday of the uncle was Clifford.....maybe I should start there?
If George was born around 1891, it's unlikely that his father was a convict - convicts ceased to be transported into NSW in 1842, although some Irish convict exiles were brought out between 1846-1850. Assuming William was around the age of 20 when transported, he would have been in his 60s or 70s when George was born in 1891. Possible, but unlikely :-\
There are a few Clifford GIBSONs showing in the NSW BDM indexes so it would be worth you having a look there.
ADDED: A William J GIBSON and his wife Louisa A were having children in Taree in the late 1800s/early 1990s; those found on the NSW BDM index are:
Reg No 23301/1886 William H
Reg No 24165/1888 John R
Reg No 33520/1890 George J
Reg No 34171/1891 Stanley W
Reg No 34799/1893 Aenas (sic) C
Reg No 27358/1895 Clifford L
Reg No 7735/1900 Cecil A
A few coincidences with names...could be worth a look?
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Prue...Thanx for that...are those numbers for birth certs?
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Can you give us a bit more information from the birth certificate as Prue asked
an occupation for George any details, were there any other children listed?
thanks Jenn
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Prue...Thanx for that...are those numbers for birth certs?
No worries - yes, those are the registration numbers that you would need to use in order to get the certs from the NSW BDM. :)
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Thanx for that Prue....will check them out
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Hi Flyspot - did you see this message I posted? Have you any more info on George from your mum's birth cert?
Cheers
Prue
What is the date given for the marriage, as per your mum's birth cert? What other info does it give re. George's occupation etc.?
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my mum certificate just said where she was born....and date...which was 15/3/30 at Crown St womens Hosp in Sydney....it says her parents ages But not DOB....stated fathers age as 39 (in 1930) says he was married in Newtown 12/5/29 but theres no record of it at all...I don't think they got married.
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did it state his occupation at all?
Jenn
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Just a labourer
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Hi Flyspot
Elizabeth Rosalind Gibson was buried in Sandgate Cemetery on 28.4.1960 aged 66yrs.Section 32 Grave No 69.
Also in the same grave George Gibson buried 29.10.1959 aged 70yrs- which makes him born c1889
Regards
Annie
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Hi Annie....thanx for that...have that already.....its everything before that I need and there seems to be no other records..my mums birth cert says a date of marriage for them that doesn't exist. and there are no birth records at all for George....seems he has either changed his name, was never married to my grandmother and is a ghost.....LOL
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Hi Flyspot - did you not consider the Gibson family in Taree that I found? They look promising (although it may be hard to prove a connection)
A William J GIBSON and his wife Louisa A were having children in Taree in the late 1800s/early 1990s; those found on the NSW BDM index are:
Reg No 23301/1886 William H
Reg No 24165/1888 John R
Reg No 33520/1890 George J
Reg No 34171/1891 Stanley W
Reg No 34799/1893 Aenas (sic) C
Reg No 27358/1895 Clifford L
Reg No 7735/1900 Cecil A
A few coincidences with names...could be worth a look?
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Also, did you ever get your grandfather's death certificate? YOu said you had ordered it. Let us know when you get it, and what it says.
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i Prue....My brother is posting me a copy of it...will take a few days..expect to have it by early nextweek....he read it out to me over the phone and it doesn't say much just where he died/date/and that he was born in Windsor but there is NO record of him at all from there...
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Hmmm...by 1959 you would expect there to be more information on a death cert, but I suppose it was all down to whatever the informant knew/could remember.
Anyway, when you get it it would be interesting to know what is on it :)
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Hi
George is proving a bit of a mystery .I wouldn't mind betting that he has changed his name at some stage.
From your mother's birth cert he is born 1891
From the death cert the index says aged 66yr =birth 1893
On the actual buried record states 70yrs = birth 1889
What if you work on the fact maybe his birthplace is true and that he was indeed born at Windsor.A search on the BDMs reveals a total of 22 Georges (regardless of surname) were born at Windsor between 1888 and 1894.
If you cross reference these births with the deaths up to 1978 you might be able to shorten the list down.
There was one for instance that had the surname Carey,now I can't find his death and he went to the 1st War but deserted so that could even end up being your George.
But I think matching all the 22 Georges up might just be worthwhile -What does everyone think??
Fly- can you remember the surname of the cousin who had a different name??
Regards
Annie
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just the surname...Clifford
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Good idea Anniee
I noted one was born with no father given a possiblity perhaps
38985/1893 WHITE GEORGE L M no father mother MARY at WINDSOR
Jenn
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FOUND!!!!
Your George Gibson is really Oscar Clifford.
Proof of this is in the 1st World Records under Clifford in which his files contains a letter in 1938 stating he is now known as George Gibson,
Annie
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Oh well done, Annecaroline! :D :D
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Fantastic!!!
I thought Clifford was the given name of the cousin...d'oh!
That is great sleuthing Annie!! :D :D :D
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Oh you are a gem Anne Caroline, now I wonder why he changed his name?
Did you troll through all the records on Cliffords in WW1.
Jenn
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Oh my, he was married in 1914 to Mary Fiddes (reg no 15575) and by the record had three children.mmmn no divorce showing on the SRO to 1930.
He did live in Paddington but with his wife.
The skeletons that come tumbling out of cupboards ;)
Jenn
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Hi
I am afraid I am not that clever .All I did was a search for any Clifford births in Windsor.Then matched them to the deaths.Couldn't find Oscar and as Fly said her one went to the war I looked up the records and there was Oscar Clifford's file with letters about him being now George Gibson.
Not that brilliant detective work I'm afraid ladies.
Name change is sort of explained in a way by his enlistment form.
Regards
Annie
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Ladies you all might find this interesting as it mentions Oscar/George's family but also a custom for the old days.
Source is a Hawkesbury Historial Society Newsletter
A recent acquisition in the Museum is probably one of
our creepiest. We have accessioned a mummified cat,
a ritual object found under the floorboards, during the
course of renovations, of a house in Day Street,
Windsor belonging to one of our members.
Early convicts and settlers, particularly if they were of
Celtic origin, brought to the colony a belief in folk
magic and witchcraft.
The cat and two
children’s shoes[pictured left] of different sizes, are believed to have been put under the house when it was first built in about 1890. The first owner of the house was a Mr Charles
Clifford, of English extraction, who married a local McMahon girl of Irish background. It may well havebeen at the
insistence of his wife that the ritual objects were
placed beneath the house. Mr Clifford was a
leatherworker at one of the many tanneries in
Windsor. The Clifford’s had five children.
Our mummified cat [pictured right] has been named
Gray Malcolm, after the cat of one of the witches in
Shakespeare’s MacBeth.
Old houses often had concealed ritual objects placed
there as protection against witches, evil spirits and the
powers of darkness. Shoes and boots were the most
common objects used for ritual purposes They were
used as they are the only portion of clothing that
retains its shape once you take it off and bad spirits,
when they saw a shoe or boot, thought that someone
was nearby. Pieces of clothing, bits of lace and cats
were also used. Children’s boots and shoes are oftenused as ritual objects because the children grow out of
the boots or shoes very quickly. In days gone by, an
adult would wear out their shoes or boots. Typically a
single shoe is found, never a pair, and the shoe is
always well-worn.
Typically ritual objects were found in weak points of a
building - the points where witches and evil spirits
could gain access, such as chimneys, the roof or attic
space and under floors. Our mummified cat was found
beneath the entry indicating that it was placed under
the threshold to stop witches or bad spirits from
entering the house. Cats were believed to have an
association with witches and were associated with the
underworld and bad spirits would see the cat and
assume there was a witch nearby and would not enter
the premises and deliver evil upon the occupants.
Another favourite spot to place a ritual object or
talisman was under the hearth.
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LOL Anne...that was very interesting reading.....I am still stunned atm....but it doesn't surprise me.....I believed he had changed his name and seems I wasn't wrong with my intuition. My mum is very superstitious and I wonder why? LOL.
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Found his birth cerificate, being Oscar Clifford, 37682-1890 at Windsor. NSW. Father was Charles and mother Mary E McMahon.....just need to find out now the other names of the children Charles and Mary had and where Oscar was in order of births of those children...have yet to find the address where they lived....
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Looking at the NSW online BDM
There are the children born to Charles and Mary E at Windosr
1885 CLIFFORD HENRY JOSEPH reg no 22748
died in1952 18661 at Parramata
1888 CLIFFORD FREDERICK reg no 24754
died in 1962 reg no 6894 at Burwood
1890 CLIFFORD OSCAR
1892 CLIFFORD CHARLES reg no 38724
1895 CLIFFORD IRIS C reg no 28487
died in 1976 reg no 18462 married name Iris Cecelia ST GEORGE
1900 CLIFFORD MAY T reg no 8803
Jenn
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Jenn...thankyou for that.....feels so good to finally find out something about our grandfather after all these years.......now hav to find out the names of his children in his marriage to Mary (May). Just to know that my mother had other half siblings somewhere and to know who they are so we can maybe meet them if they are still alive...
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Anne.....that note of his name change on the WW1 documents...was that on a special document? was the name change an official document? or was it just attached to all the files..?
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You have to read all the 54 odd pages to see where tells of his name change.
Jenn
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It's about halfway through I think...there are a few letters from him, and replies/responses from the officials, relating to it.
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Hi guys,
Have been trying to trace Oscar Clifford (my grand father) for quite some time. Thanks for the info.
FYI
There are a whole series of Charles Cliffords starting with the first of my Australian line, who was transported for horse stealing. He arrived in Oz in 1826 (birth: 1805, Berkshire, England, died: 1897, Windsor. Australia. Married: Louisa Westbrook at Richmond in 1885. They had ten children. )
Charles Clifford and Mary E McMahon had another son Frank in 1896. Frank seems to have died at birth.
The next Charles Clifford in the line was killed in WWI.
Oscar Clifford and Mary Fiddes had four kids (Mary had five) Eileen, Charles, Francis (Frank), Dudley & Bruce. Seems Bruce was sired after Oscar deserted Mary).....My dad (Frank) once told me the only memory he had of his dad was the smell of beer on his breathe.