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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Nottinghamshire => England => Nottinghamshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Red_Fred on Friday 20 February 09 22:23 GMT (UK)
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The baptism of William Thomas Dickenson is a gap in my research.
I know he was a Dyer (Silk) operating from Canal Street and Rutland Street - he appears in several directories after 1810.
He married Mary Whyley on 19 March 1823 at St. Nicholas, Nottingham.
They had already had a son (also William Thomas) who was baptised (as a bastard) in February 1819 - Mary's address was Rutland Street, like WTD, so she may have been his servant. Old WT Dickenson was about 50 when the lad (my g.g. granddad) was born and Mary was about 25.
Old William died at Newton nr Shelford (Mary's home village) on 21 June 1828. He has a fine slate headstone in Shelford church yard, which declares he was "of Nottingham, aged 59 years".
I had a thrash around the IGI but couldn't find a baptism that seemed to fit.
Can anyone trace a baptism for Old WTD or perhaps an earlier marriage ?
Thanks in anticipation
Malc
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Hi Malc,
I've looked for a baptism for him in Notts but couldn't find anything around that date. Tried Dickinson + William Thomas without a surname :(
Looked for a non-conformist one, too on BMDregisters also - no luck there, either :-\
Sorry - would have loved to have helped I have one like that, too!
Paulene :)
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Hi again,
Just been doing a bit of lateral thinking, and thought I'd look for his name in the Nottingham Burgess Roll - to see if he did his apprenticeship in the town.
Nothing for his name ???
Also, looked at Dyers - nothing with a name anything like his.
So, it leads me to think he must have served his apprenticeship elsewhere - maybe in the county, or somewhere not in Notts.
Try Notts Archives - they have indexes for apprenticeships in Notts:
email: archivesatnottscc.gov.uk
* replace at with @
If his name doesn't appear in Notts then there is the index on the SOG site, which can be viewed on the British Origins site - there is a fee payable, but there are different subscriptions. (OR maybe someone on rootschat has one who might help - worth asking, maybe!)
www.origins.net
Hope this helps + sorry if his name doesn't appear, and you get the subscription!
Paulene :)
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Hi-ya Paulene
I'll have a look at the websites you referred to.
Had a look at some of my early notes on William Thomas Dickenson.
As I guess you know, the NFHS published a whole series of booklets on Notts Records. In Vol XXX Part 2 there is a list of Rate Payers. Amongst the list is Thomas Dickenson of Academy Court (1785) and Robert Dickenson of Bull Dyke (1784) - thought one of them might be WTD's dad - search so far is fruitless.
My other thought was that the name may have been spelt with an "i" - the normal spelling (indeed WTD himself is described as "Mr. Dickinson, Dyer, of Rutland Street, 48 years" in the Watching and Warding list of 1816-17).
If we look for Dickinson in the NFHS source quoted above we find James Dickinson, Backside (1789), George Dickinson, Parliament Street (1784), Mrs Dickinson, Toller's Hill (1784) and William Dickinson, Rudkin's Yard (1784).
Can you pick anything up from the above reference points ?
Many thanks for your help thus far
Malc
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Hi Malc,
Have you seen this:
www.rootschat.com/links/05nd/
Just having a think - back soon, Malc.
Paulene :)
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This might come in useful later, Malc:
www.rootschat.com/links/05ne/
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Hi Malc,
I reckon Bull Dyke must be Butt Dyke:
www.rootschat.com/links/05nf/
Paulene :)
Still to work out where it is!
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Well, it looks as if Toller's Hill is the lower end of the present-day Derby Road. (which makes sense, Malc).
Butt Dyke is the present day Park Row.
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George Dickinson - needlemaker B.B 1793/4
George Dickisson - stocking needlemaker 1770/1
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James Dickisson Cooper 1784/5 B.B
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Hi Malc…Hi Paulene…. :)
I thought I would throw this into the mix just in case it gives you any other ideas.
Marriage - Nottingham St Mary
THOMAS DICKINSON & CAROLINE NORTON – 1st February 1808
Baptism - Nottingham St Mary
Willm DICKINSON – father Thos, mother Caroline – 6th December 1808
Mary Ann DICKASON – father Thomas, mother Caroline – 5th February 1811
Baptism - Nottingham St Nicholas
Charles Henry DICKENSON – father Thomas, mother Caroline – 29th October 1815; fathers occupation DYER – abode RUTLAND St.
Sheila.
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Looks promising, Sheila :)
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Sheila and Paulene
Sheila,
Wow thanks, looks very promising. There is an entry in Pigot's Directory for 1822 - "Dyer, Rutland Street, (W & T Dickenson)". The "T" sounds like Thomas - brother or son of WTD ?
I'll pursue this.
William Thomas Dickenson was born c. 1769 (assuming his age at death to be correct - per his gravestone) thus IGI gives three possibilities nationally.
1. William Dickinson bapt at Lenton 17 July 1768 (father Henry mother Hannah)
2. Ditto Bapt. "about 1768" at Flintham, Notts mother Elizabeth
3. William Dickenson bapt Claypole, Lincs, 16 July 1768 (date is a strange coincidence with 1, above) father John mother Hannah.
Of these 1. looks to be a possible.
Paulene
Thanks for the stuff on the streets and the web-sites. Bit of an "off the wall" thing here - re the site containing the the Poll Book. The owner is an old mate of mine - we used to coach football teams together ten years ago or so. Small, strange world !! So double thanks for the link!!
Thanks to both of you thus far. I feel that I am getting closer to WTD now. With your help I will pin the old b***** down !
Keep the ideas coming.
Malc
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Hi Malc,
Funny about the site :D
I've been researching early FWKs for my husband's tree in Nottingham, and whilst exploring sources and speaking to people, spoke to a lady from the Brewhouse Yard Museum in Nottingham. She told me that Sue Postles, who used to work there, had done extensive research into the Dyers in that area - especially one called William Elliott (I think) who lived and worked in that area. Although she has now retired, I was told that she still goes in regularly, so they know how to contact her.
It might be worth you ringing/emailing her to see if she has come across your ancestor's name.
I know that lots of the early FWKs had family connections - maybe this was the case with Dyers.
Have a look at this little article I found, which tells you how many came up to Nottingham from London - if you can't find his apprenticeship details, that might explain why!
www.rootschat.com/links/05o2
I knew that Brewhouse Yard was an interesting place (extra parochial, etc et) but never knew this:
www.rootschat.com/links/05o3
Must remember to investigate more! Sound a wealthy lot, these dyers!
Have a little on dyers - back soon.
Paulene :)
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Dyers in Nottingham:
Rare in 1583.
By 1630 there were enough dyers and clothworkers in the town to form themselves into a 'company'. There ordinances were ratified by the corporation in that year. There was a fuller, a dyer and a clothworker amongst the burgesses in 1625, and three dyers, four clothworkers and eight bleachers ( of linen) in 1641. Only three dyers left wills between 1660 and 1700; Deering's trade list of 1739 also enumerated three, together with one bleacher (of linen) and five linen weavers.
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Morning Paulene
Again many thanks for the information which I will follow up.
Particularly grateful for the Sue (ella) Postles link. I had contact with her years ago through lecture work. Would never have picked up on her interest in Dyers but for your good self. Will speak to Notts AO and get in touch with her.
You and Sheila have re-invigorated my search for the "Old Dyer". Will post any new finds or problems on this thread.
Do they award Roots Chat Medals ? If they do I nominate you and Sheila for your info. and advice.
Malc
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Pleasure, Malc :)
Sorry, realised last night I'd got Suella's name wrong, but you picked up on that, thankfully.
You've probably done this already, but thought I'd ask - have you looked at the name, wills and streets indexes in the Notts Archives?
I did this whilst looking for clues to find the parents of Joseph Richards b. 1756 - if you some across him, let me know, Malc! (I'm stuck with two Josephs married to Marys, at the same period in Nottingham, - need to find other things to unravel the mystery. The family seem to have lived, 1690 - 1750, around Leen Side and Navigation Row, near where the big explosion took place in 1818). I haven't cracked it yet, but enjoyed rummaging through all the stuff about old Nottingham (Must be because I'm from near Nottingham, and lived there until 11 years ago - still home in many ways).
Still trying to figure out where Academy Court is - not mentioned in Blackner's History - strange!
You know, I'm not terribly sure where Rutland Street is - only know that it's name came about because the land was owned by the Duke of Rutland. Wonder when it disappeared?
I know that the council have lots of deeds for old redevelopment areas in Nottingham - some went to the Notts archives, but some are still (think this is still true) in the Guildhall building, on Shakespeare Street. I intended to have a look for some deeds for Carter Gate, where the Ice Arena is today, but sadly never got round to it - maybe one day!
Found this whilst googling:
www.rootschat.com/links/05oi
Such a pity we don't know what names it contains; and that it looks as if it's ended up far away, and not in the Notts Archives :(
Anyway, let us know how you get on - all interesting stuff!
Kind regards,
Paulene :)
ADDED: Found Rutland Street.
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Paulene
Not been on the case for a few days but have left messages at Brewhouse Yard to ask for contact details for Suella Postles - will post any outcomes from that line.
Will put your Joseph Richards on my list for my next visit to Notts AO.
By the bye one of my g.g.g. grandads, Isaiah Clarke (dentist, widower) of Low Pavement, married a Charlotte Richards (spinster) of Clumber Street on 17 Sept 1837 at St. Peters, Nottingham - her father was Thomas Richards (gentleman) - any connection ?
Bizarrely I have a subsequent marriage for Isaiah Clarke on 14 November 1843 to Charlotte Chappell (widow) of Low Pavement, father Thomas Richards (gentleman).
I haven't found a death for Charlotte mark one. It looks on the face of it that Charlotte mark two was mark one's sister.
IGI has a Charlotte Richards bapt. St. Marys, Nottm on 29 November 1801 - parents Thomas and Elizabeth Richards.
Again IGI has a Thomas Richards marrying Elizabeth Hinde at St. Marys on 5 October 1797.
Also a Thomas Richards marrying Elizabeth Flower on 10 Jan 1801 - again St. Marys
Charlotte Richards probably came from this union
Final bit of the puzzle a Charlotte Richards married George Graham Chappell on 2 Sept 1824 at St. Alkmund, Derby. This would seem to be Charlotte mark two.
Any thoughts will be gratefully received on this one.
Finally for now I am Nottingham born and bred (Meadows). Back in the city for the past 20 years and still unable to find the time I would like to delve into the local archives !!!!
Malc
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Hi Malc,
Good to hear from you - even if it is with a puzzle! ;D
I, too, had a couple of days out, trying to break down my Staffordshire brickwall. Failed miserably :'( One day!
Anyway, back to the task in hand - Charlotte mystery.
Well, when I read it all I was more than confused, but having looked at my parish registers this is what I found:
Marriage:
Thomas Richards + Elizabeth Hinde 5 Oct 1797 Nottm St. Mary
Baptism:
Charlotte Richards bp 29 Nov 1801 Nottm St Mary
Marriages:
Isaiah Clarke + Charlotte Richards 7 Sep 1837 Nottm St Peter
Isaiah Clarke + Charlotte Chappell 14 Nov 1843 Nottm St Peter
Couldn't find, as you say, a burial for the first Charlotte ???
However, I did find some other things, which I don't know if you have already, Malc:
1841 census:
Living on Chruch street, Beeston
Isaiah Clarke 41 dentist
Charlotte 37
mary 18
Henry 9
John 6
So, I thought I'd look to see what children I could find:
Jane Clarke 22.1.1821 NSM apothecary Red Lion St
Mary Ann Clark 10.4.1823 NSM " "
Isaiah William Clarke 30.3.1825 NSM " "
Frances Sophia Clarke 17.9.1826 NSP dentist Brisdlesmith Gate
Ellen Edna Clarke 12.3.1827 NSP " "
Rebecca Farnsworth Clark 4.12.1829 NSP surgeon dentist "
Hawksley Edwin Clarke 26.6.1831 NSP surgeon dentist "
Bernard Henry Clarke 3.6.1832 NSP " Bridlesmith Gate
Samuel John Clarke 22.2.1835 NSP " Low Pavement
Parents: Isaiah and Mary.
Marriage:
Isaiah Clark + Mary Shardlow 23.12.1819 NSM
Can't find a burial for Mary - did wonder if this was one of the cholera epidemic periods, and this might explain it. Not sure, to be honest. It looks as if all the burials are complete for the three main churches in Nottm. What's he doing with all these wives! ;D
So, still haven't figured out what comes next, but will think on that tomorrow. At least I have more of a picture of what was happening up to 1837.
Anyway, Thomas Richards esq I have come across a few times; and often wondered if there was a connection with my husband's lot. I don't think there is one or two did have the title gentleman along the line, but, if my memory serves me right, I think this Thomas Richards was a Hosier.
Charlotte isn't connected, as far as I know, with them - Joseph Richards jnr (son of my elusive one b 1756) married a Charlotte Mew, but I don't think they had any children.
Malc, thank you for the kind offer re the Notts Archives - please don't waste time looking through the indexes, as I've already looked through them all. Just keep your eyes open for a mention along the way.
The only way I will unravel the mystery is if something likes a will (and I've already been through those) or a mention somewhere reveals a clue. At some stage I need to find time to go over every bit of information I've found, and look again at the marriages and baptism in the hope of sorting out who belonged to who, and who lived where. It's not going to be an easy one!
Trouble is rootschat is so inviting and I love helping other people solve their mysteries. At least it's therapeutic, and stops you going round the bend.
My daughter has now moved back near Nottingham, so when the weather gets better I'm hoping to spend time in Nottingham at local studies, archives + Bromley House (have met someone who is a member and can take me in as a guest :))
Off to look for info on Thomas Richards - back soon, Malc.
Take care,
Paulene :)
* Beeston area lass.
P.S. Did you know there is an article called 'Dentists, toothers and kind-hearts' in the March issue of Your Family Tree. I haven't read it yet, but it looks quite good.
Anyway, must get to bed - I wrote all this once and lost it when saving some information :'(
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Morning Paulene
Gosh, many thanks for looking up the Clarkes for me.
You have hit the same brick-walls as me, namely :-
Mary Clarke nee Shardlow - no death (well, not on paper)
Charlotte Clarke (Mk1) - no death (ditto)
I have traced the recorded lives of all of Isaiah and Mary's children down to 1901, apart from one - the oddly named Hawksley Edwin Clarke. Again no recorded death and the lad doesn't seem to appear on the census of 1841. Although the family were prone to using the middle name for certain of the children
Re 1841, whilst Isaiah was in Beeston, his eldest son (also Isaiah) and one of the older girls were living in the main home on Low Pavement. The eldest girl, Jane (my g.g. grandma), was living on Houndsgate with her brand new husband William Thomas Dickenson (jnr). Next door were William and Mary Doncaster. Mary was WTD senior's last wife, Mary Whiley.
WTD junior died (like his dad) in Newton in 1859. On the 1861 census Jane Dickenson is staying with her dad and step mum Isaiah and Charlotte Clarke on Low Pavement.
The search for Mary, Charlotte (mk1), Charlotte (mk2) and Hawksley Edwin Clarke goes on.
Enjoy Bromley House - wonderful place - I'm not a member myself but have been signed in on occasions in the past. Coincidentally I met one of the directors of the library last weekend at Nottingham Playhouse - she and I were at school together - urged me to join but I haven't got the time to make use of the facilities right now.
I will look at the article on dentists. As a final point for now all of Isaiah (snr's) sons started off as dentists but only one (Isaiah jnr in Bristol) stayed in the trade - although I think that Isaiah senior had at least one brother (James Clarke) who plied (or pliered - ouch!) the trade.
Incidentally my first marital home was in Beeston Rylands lived there for eight years.
All for now
Thanks again
Malc
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Hi Malc,
Well, it certainly isn't straight-forward, is it!
It seems strange to think that a couple named both of their daughters Charlotte - or have I got that bit wrong! Or, did you mean sister-in-laws. (no, maybe not!)
I could understand that - if the first one died; but not if both were living! :-\
I think it's more likely that they are two, or more, Thomas Richards around in Nottingham at this time (well you know already that there are two married to Elizabeths) But, like you, I can only find one baptism for a Charlotte Richards with a father named Thomas ???
Is the information with regard to the father's names from the marrigage certificates, Malc? Do either say Thomas Richards, deceased (of did that come in later? Maybe it did) Still think it's strange there is only one marriage bond/licence - perhaps there is another marriage licence in Derbyshire, or somewhere else.
I also wonder if the first Charlotte Richards died in another area, Malc. (perhaps if her father was the one who died in Hoxton (*see further on), that that might explain one part of the puzzle).
Anyway, this is the information on Thomas Richards:
Universal British Directory, 1791 -98
Corporation
Esquires. Members in Parliament
Mr Thomas Richards + Mr Henry Green jnr. Chamberlains
+ later .....
Richards, Thomas hosier
1815 Sutton's Nottingham Directory
Richards, Thomas hosier Castle-gate
1825 Glover's Nottingham Directory
Senior Council
And also of the Livery or Clothing Burgesses
Mr. Thomas Richards, London
3 references to him also come up on google booksearch if you put in Thomas Richards Nottingham:
The Nottm Date Book
P.349 1819
Politics and Society in Nottingham P. 116 1825
Parliamentary Papers 1843 P.29
*Nothing spectacular there.
There is a will on NA:
11 July, 1840 Will of Thomas Richards, late Silk Merchant of Haberdashers Place, Hoxton, Middlesex PRO 11/1931
* can't see any Charlotte mentioned
(bought it in case it was connected with my lot, but as I thought it isn't - writing is so fuzzy, but I'm almost certain no Charlotte is mentioned, Malc).
So, in my opinion I not sure this one was Charlotte's father - unless it was Charlotte Mk 1's father, and where is her birth + what age was this one! (so complicated, isn't it!)
To have been a burgess, and a Chamberlain in 1791 this Thomas Richards must I think have born before 1770, because of the age of finishing his apprenticeship. Pity we don't know his age at death - I suppose it will say on the death certificate, in 1840.
But, I did find several interesting things on NA site:
www.rootschat.com/links/05pm
www.rootschat.com/links/05pp
There is a lot to look through, Malc, but you will see that George Graham Chappell is mentioned .
Now, I could be getting this completely wrong, but it looks as if this Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Richards, remarried in 1816, to Joseph Burbage, at Nottm St Mary. So, this, Elizabeth Burbage, has the mother of Charlotte Mk 2.
Anyway, Malc, see what conclusion you come to, and let me know. As I said I may have it all completely upside down, and I won't be at all offended if you say so. It doesn't by any means answer all of the questions but it may give a bit of a glimpse into some of it.
Bye for now.
Paulene :)
Sorry - I know it's going to take a bit to get your head round all of this :-\ Perhaps I've so much time on all this my brain has become a bit addled - wouldn't surprise me ;D
Sheila, please feel free to say what you think :) We could do with some help!
Malc, I can email you the will if you want to see it youserlf - you, too, Sheila.
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Hello Malc…Hello Paulene,
I had been thinking about the Dickenson’s but circumstances at home are preventing me for getting back to it at the moment….although I will keep taking a peak and putting in my two pennies worth if I can.
I have lost my train of thought, but I did wonder if some of them did come from down south and maybe went back.
I saw there was a Charles Henry Dickenson born in Nottingham living in Greenwich, Kent in 1851; H0.107/1587/83/21 and in 1861 he is in Plumstead, Kent; RG9/408/125/21 I think it say’s he is a Shell Trimmer….whatever that is.
Sheila.
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Hi Sheila,
Nice to hear from you :) Join in when, and if you can - don't the mystery is going to be solved overnight! No pressure.
Just knew I was going round in circles a bit and sometimes a new brain can see the errors you make, better than you can yourself.
Little more information this morning:
Thinking about Elizabeth remarrying, in 1816, I had another look at the parish registers - to see if I could find a death for Thomas Richards, between 1810 (when his last child was born) and 1816 when she remarried.
I found:
Thos. Richards 06 Oct 1814 38 yrs
Sneinton St Stephen
Abode: Nottingham
Also there (and this confirms it is the right Thomas):
Thos. Chadburn Richards 27 Oct 1812
Sneinton St Stephen
son of Thos.
There is also an Ann Richards there, too 26 Mar 1815 65 yrs
Abode: Old Sneinton
Wonder if this is Thomas's mother? Might not be related at all.
All fits in with the information regarding Thomas and Elizabeth's children:
Ann 16 Oct 1810 Nottm St Mary
Thomas Chatburn 24 Oct 1789 Nottm St Mary
Thomas 2 Oct 1798 Nottm St Mary
Charlotte 29 Nov 1801.
All this makes Thomas, the father, born c 1776. I can only see one candidate at the moment which is one born in Beeston, to a William and Mary - but this might not be him. Any others, I wonder ???
This all fits in with something amongst those entries on NA:
www.rootschat.com/links/05pw
www.rootschat.com/links/05px
All the above also confirms that is is the Elizabeth Hinde we are looking at, and not Elizabeth Flower (who married her Thomas in 1801).
Wee, Malc, apologies if you've got all of this already - I know that it's the mystery of the two Charlottes and Hawksley Edwin that you really want to solve. Just hoping that if we can't find them the direct way, that going a different way will work. We can hope!
Anyway, have to wash my hair, so back later. (I'll be in touch, Sheila)
Take care.
Paulene :)
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Catching up time !
Hi Sheila and Paulene
re Thomas Richards and the two Charlottes (Mk2 = Chappell nee Richards)
I am really interested in him - would love to solve the mystery of the guy and the two Charlottes.
Before I go on I wonder whether we ought to open a separate post on him and his family ?
To sum up and re-appraise, all I have on him is as follows :-
Daughter Charlotte's (Mk 1.) wedding at St. Peter's, Nottingham 17 September 1837. He is described as a gentleman (no mention of "deceased"). Charlotte was a spinster living on Clumber Street, Nottingham. Witnesses James Clarke and Jane Clarke
Charlotte Chappell's wedding St. Peter's, Nottingham 14 November 1843. She is a widow of Low Pavement, Nottingham. Her father is Thomas Richards (gentleman) - no mention of deceased. Witnesses William Clarke and Jane Clarke.
Turning to the Charlotte's
Charlotte Clarke - whom we assume to be Mark One was with husband Isaiah on Church Street, Beeston on the 1841 census, aged 37 years, she was born in Notts.
The second Charlotte Clarke (formerly Chappell nee Richards) was baptised in St. Mary's, Nottingham per the 1851 census. I think she died Apr-May 1870, if it's the right one her age is given as 65 - might be worth my getting her death certificate.
I am really intrigued (puzzled!) by the apparent facts that both Charlottes were -
(a) born in Notts
(b) have Thomas Richards (gentlemen) as their father
(c) born in about 1804/5
And of course we can find no death for Charlotte Mark 1
A bit of me thinks that there might be one Charlotte and the wedding in 1837 to Isaiah was bigamous on Charlotte's part - if she had indeed married George Graham Chappell in Derby in 1824 and her father was dead, she might have got away with it for a time.
All this is pure pure speculation - though Paulene has pointed me to some sort of court case between George Chappell and Charlotte Chappell - I will look again at that.
I have just spotted that a George Chappell died in Nottingham in Jan-Mar 1838 - oh dear !!
As my head is hurting I will step away from the keyboard and have a cup of tea....
Malc
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Complicated, isn't it - to say the least!
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Hi
Having migrated this post into Richards - Clarke - Chappell territory, I'm bringing this post back to William Thomas Dickenson !!!
I will open a new post on the Richards - Clarke - Chappell mystery as I have gained some more information which has inevitably raised more questions (the thick plottens!!)
However, back to WTD. Acting on some excellent advice and information from Paulene and Sheila (thank you ladies), I delved into the Nottingham Borough Apprenticeship Index at the Notts Record Office.
Lo and behold there is a record for the apprenticeship of Thomas Dickenson as a Framework Knitter in 1803 (ref 4/348). He was the son of William Thomas Dickenson, Dyer of Nottingham.
Armed with that snippet of information I searched the IGI for Thomas Dickenson and came up with the baptism of a Thomas Dickenson in Shoreditch 28 Feb 1790 - father William Thomas Dickenson, mother Mary
There is a marriage on IGI in Bethnal Green 30 March 1788 - William Thomas Dickenson to Mary Wrigglesworth Paterson.
The apprenticed Thomas may indeed be the person picked up by Sheila who married Caroline Norton in Nottingham in 1808 - though he would have married young.
The evidence Sheila produced concerning Thomas' occupation in 1815, when Charles Henry was baptised, supports the link and suggests that maybe Thomas gave up on FWKing as a dying trade and joined his dad in the Dyeing trade (!!)
This is still unfinished business and further confirmations are needed, but a clearer picture is beginning to emerge.
It's good to have strong evidence that WTD's origins lay outside Notts - hence my difficulty in pinning the rascal down.
Comments and views on the above will be gratefully received
Malc
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Hi Malc,
Just been looking at eh baptisms on familysearch for any Thomas Dickensons and that does seem to be the likely one, doesn't it.
I was a bit concerned that the age for the start of Thomas's apprenticeship in 1803 was a bit early, Malc, so I did a bit of digging around to see if many started before the age of fourteen (the usual age) and it seems some did:
www.rootschat.com/links/05ul
They usually served a seven year apprenticeship, though in the early years some did nine years. And.often they were not allowed to marry until their apprenticeship finished, and they were made burgesses.
However, I looked for a baptism for Thomas's father William Thomas Dickenson and found one for a William Thomas Dickerson in 1769:
05 Mar 1769 St. Leonard's, Shoreditch.
F: William M: Ann
(see whether you think this the one, Malc).
So, if this is his father's baptism that would mean he was only nineteen when he married in 1788.
In which case perhaps this family married earlier than most; before the end of their apprenticeships.
Did you by any chance find a record for when Thomas became a burgess, Malc?
I suppose the only way to be sure is to look and see if the family stayed in London - any apprenticeships there, or any marriages there. If not, then it's fair to assume they are the ones in Nottingham, Malc.
Apprenticeship records for the father might also how that he ceased taking on apprentices in London, and started in Nottingham.
But, on the face of it, Malc, it looks good.
We'll wait and see what Sheila makes of it. Or, anyone else who cares to join in the thread.
Glad the trip to the Notts Archives was successful.
Bye for now,
Paulene :)
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Thanks Paulene
I will do some further checking on Nottm Records - I seem to recall seeing ages ago an index card for WTD in the Nottingham burgesses file - will look again.
Like you, and based on the age on his gravestone in Shelford, I think the Shoreditch baptism of William Thomas Dickerson in 1769 is my man.
I also found this on the IGI :-
St. Leonard's, Shoreditch
Mary Dickenson
born 13 Nov 1797
christened 10 Dec 1797
buried 6 Nov 1798
parents - William Dickenson and Mary
Another thing I picked up was that WTD took on a Charity Apprentice in Nottingham in 1809 - a lad named Thomas Peat.
I will look at the burgess records in the next few days also might also be worth my putting a post on the London section of Roots Chat.
Finally for now re the Richards- Chappell mystery, have started looking into the Charlton papers, but feel I need to make sure I put a succinct post on the site requesting information.
Thanks again
Malc
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Hello Malc & Paulene,
I looked for other baptism possibilities outside of Nottinghamshire and came up with the same as you which does looks very plausible.
I wonder if the original marriage entry for William Thomas Dickenson to Mary Wrigglesworth Paterson might give any extra information. Probably too much to hope for that it gives his occupation as Dyer?
I don’t suppose there is a Will for William Thomas Dickenson?
I am guessing you have already seen this Dickenson v Wright?
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=P2oDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA403&dq=%22william+thomas+dickenson%22#PPA401,M1
Although there are lot’s of other Dickenson and name variant burials I will mention this one as I am drawn to it….if WT was married previously to another Mary then there must be a burial for her somewhere for him to go on to marry Mary Whiley…..and as we know their son William Thomas was illegitimate so why did they wait 3 years and then marry? Could the reason be that WT was still married to Mary number one?
Burial – Nottingham St Mary
Mary Dickenson, aged 54, 14th February 1823 – abode Richmond Hill
Aged 54 in 1823 gives a birth year of about 1769; she dies 14th February 1823 and WT & Mary Whiley marry 10th March 1823……I am not sure where Richmond Hill is in Nottingham? and I didn’t find any other Dickenson’s in Richmond Hill.
Sheila. :)
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Sheila - lovely to hear from you :D Hope you are ok.
Malc + Sheila,
It's interesting Sheila, that you found that court case - I hadn't seen it.
However, it fits in brilliantly with what I've found today.
I spent ages and ages looking at details on Shoreditch and dyer's apprenticeships, etc etc and came up with nothing - just a few burials, but nothing exciting. (I did find out that the records for the dyer's guild are on microfiche at the Guildhall Library).
So, then I thought I'd read through the thread again, and decided to see if I could find out anything about Caroline Norton - where she came from, etc. I looked at the parish registers for Nottingham, IGI, historical directories for a father, but still nothing! Finally, I thought I would just check the directories on ancestry, just in case there was anything different. That drew a blank, too; but just before signing off I thought I'd check the parish registers, and that's where I found the following information:
Marriages at St. Mary's, Nottingham 1566 to 1813:
Thomas Dickinson, b. & Caroline Norton Wright, lic. 01 Feb 1808.
Still can't find her baptism in Notts., but I found some information about a gentleman who may well have been her brother - Christopher Norton Wright. (I'd noticed this gentleman married and named his daughter Caroline Rose - if you look on the Notts baptism cd you will see she was baptised twice).
I'm wondering if this is the man (or his son) who compiled the Wright's Directory of Nottingham, but not completely sure yet.
I did find some information on him:
There were two men by the same name - father and son.
One was a member of Bromley House - he is featured in the member's list, and some details are given:
www.rootschat.com/links/05ut
More soon - I want to post this bit, as I just lost it all the first time :'(
Paulene :)
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Now for the next bit:
I did a search on googlebooks and found that good old Christopher Norton Wright had written an autobiography, which had got lost, but been found by his great granddaughter. She had it published in 1969:
No hero, I confess by Christopher Norton Wright, Margaret P Medlicott.
There is a snippet view on googlebooks - not much but it tells you he was born in 1790 (working this out from dates given) and that his father was an inn keeper, before changing trades.
There are lots of second hand copies of the book on the abe books site (very reasonably priced, too). I'm going to try to get hold of a copy, as it apparently sets the scene in Nottingham at this time, and mentions lots of interesting people - it might well tell us a bit more about the Dickenson family, Malc!
(No promises, though ;)) Sure to be a fascinating read.
Googlebooks also gives a bit of information showing that the marriage licence details for Thomas and Caroline's wedding is in the Nottingham Parish Registers book by Phillimore (bound to be in the Notts Archives).
In fact putting in Christopher Norton Wright in the search for google books brings one or two things up about him, and his son. A search for Caroline just confirmed that she was Norton Wright, and the details about the marriage and licence.
Well, this information might bring up something new - hope so.
Funny that Sheila should find the court case :D
Anyway, off to see if I can find out where Richmond Hill is.
Take care,
Paulene :)
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Hi again,
It looks as if Richmond Hill is somewhere near where Cross Street and Platt Street used to be (Huntingdon Street today).
There is a list of Street on google books in Whites Directory of Nottingham 1832, and also on this site:
www.rootschat.com/links/05ne
And, the following site has a great map showing Cross Street + Platt Street:
www.rootschat.com/links/05uu
Hope this helps,
Paulene :)
P.S. One or two photos of Cross Street and Nile Street on www.picturethepast.org.uk
Sheila,
You've certainly come up with some great stuff! :)
Thank you.
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Hi Malc & Paulene,
A little bit more….
Looks like the marriage bond is with the University of Nottingham at Kings Meadow Campus =
http://mss-cat.nottingham.ac.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Performance&dsqSearch=(PerformerRole==ROLEI19103)&dsqCmd=Show.tcl
So… Caroline’s father was Henry Wright and both fathers had to give consent, Caroline was 18; William Thomas Dickenson was father of the groom and Thomas Dickenson was also 18 a bachelor and a Dyer of Nottingham St Mary.
Marriage Bond - 27th January 1808
Marriage date – 1st February 1808 -Thomas Dickenson & Caroline Norton
So if Thomas gives his age as 18 in 1808 that gives a birth year of about 1790, which again fits in with the other findings.
Sheila.
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Hi Sheila,
That's brilliant - I couldn't find it :-[ I looked, but ever since they changed the searches I've got a bit confused,;I personally found it more straightforward as it was. It looks more modern now, I suppose.
The ages do fit in, don't they. The only difference is the occupation for Thomas - dyer rather than FWK. Maybe he wasn't a very good FWK, and returned to the family trade (the burgess details should show this). Sorry, Malc! ;D
Thinking back, I did see an entry in one the directories, or somewhere, with regard to a Henry Wright who was a coal merchant, but I disregarded it at the time because it didn't seem to fit. I will see if I can locate it.
I've ordered my copy of the book, and it has been posted, so should be here within the next few days.
Paulene :)
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Good Evening Paulene and Sheila
What can I say, brilliant work by the both of you, many thanks.
I spent part of the afternoon in Notts Archives on the Richards-Chappell case which I will post separately tomorrow.
Had a very quick look at the burgess cards for William Thomas Dickenson but couldn't find one - my memory was obviously playing tricks !!
Richmond Hill was right on the edge of the town in 1820. You are quite right Paulene it was near Plat Street - close to what is now St. Anns Well Road. There were rows of houses close together:- Snow Hill, Richmond Hill and Sun Hill. If you look at Smith and Wild's map of Nottingham (1820), Richmond Hill is just below the map title in the top right hand corner and immediately to the left of the engraving of the borough arms.
Re the court case of 1860 (Chancery), yes, thanks I have a copy of that. Strange little story, about 40 years ago, when I was very young (a teenager) my mum's brother (b. 1895) told me that the Dickenson's had been "done out of" property. I put that down to old family fantasies and was surprised to receive from a relative in Australia, a copy of the ruling. The house in question, Ludgates is still standing in East Bridgford. I have a photo taken by me last year - but don't know how to attach it !.
The licence for Thomas and Caroline's wedding (great work Sheila) seems to be the final confirmation that the William Thomas Dickenson in Shoreditch is the WTD who married Mary Whiley in 1823.
But what became of Thomas and Caroline.......???
I will close now but will put another post up later this evening.
Many, many thanks ladies.
Malc
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Hello Malc & Paulene…. :)
I was also wondering what became of Thomas & Caroline, there are no burials showing for them on the Nott’s burial index that I can see.
Paulene…the book sounds really good, I see there is a little bit about some of the Wright family featured in the book here - http://www.geocities.com/lintywhite/cnwright2
If the information is correct Caroline’s parents/grandparents were quite well to do….coal merchant doesn’t follow well does it? And I see a couple of Caroline’s siblings married in the Shoreditch & Stepney area.
Sheila.
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Hi to you both,
Well, I must have been dreaming about seeing something in the directories, as I've spent ages looking through both sites, NA, etc and not found it again.
Just before I logged on again I found the marriage of Henry Wright and Cary/Carey Rose, and felt it must be them, because of the names Christopher Norton Wright gave his daughter. Plus, as Sheila said, nothing about them in Nottingham.
After that, I thought I wonder if they're on any family trees on ancestry, etc and found that they are!
And, if you both look at the one called the WRIGHT Family tree you will find out the answer to your question Malc - "what happened to Thomas and Caroline?" They're both buried at Croydon, in Surrey.
Although this does some of the work for us, I reckon we would have got there anyway - just a matter of time + great team work! You've been fantastic, Sheila :D I wish I could have you on solving my brickwall!
I wondering if the person who has done this tree is in Australia, because somehow when I clicked on the information regarding the 1808 marriage I had been signed out and it invited me to join ancestry via the australian version site :-\ If you look at the pallot's marriage image you will see why there was confusion in the marriage register over Caroline's name!
I see on the tree that they have William Thomas Dickinson (Caroline's husband) as being born c 1787 in Tamworth, but I suspect that is because that is where they think Caroline was born and baptised (bit of guesswork).
It's also interesting to see in the list of names in the tree that St.Leonard's, Shoreditch features at times.
Forgive me if I've said this already, but it looks as if St. Leonard's sent some of it's charity children up to do apprenticeships in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, so I wonder if that was a reason for his father moving to Nottingham. However, there were Dickenson/Dickinsons in the Nottingham area, so that could also have been reason.
I can see now where the curiosity about the family sprang up all those years ago, Malc. I was told a similar story about my g grandfather's business (not as wealthy as this one sounds) who my second cousin believed had been done out of his shop ,etc . However, I found a Rates Book and it turned out he rented the shop and didn't own it.
I would love to see the photo of the house if you can post it, Malc - I don't suppose there's a photo on the picturethepast site is there?
But, we still have to find out about William Thomas's father, don't we - now there's a challenge and a half I think!
Look forward to hearing from you both - take care.
Paulene :)
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Sheila,
I forgot to say thank you for the link you found regarding the book - good isn't it!
Are you going to buy a copy? Some on abebooks are very reasonable - not quite so good on the site beginning with a............. though.
Catch up soon,
Paulene :)
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Paulene and Sheila
I will pursue the William Thomas Dickenson question via a post on the London part of the site.
So far as the Mary Whiley issue (!) is concerned my conjecture is this. The Whileys came from Newton near Shelford. They were a very poor family, I think sometimes given to wandering about. E.g. the vicar of Shelford annotated the register after the baptism in November 1792 of William Whyler (sic) one of Mary's brothers "born sometime in the spring". Mary Whyley or Wiley or Whiler went to work in Nottingham, possibly as a servant to William Thomas Dickenson. Her sister Lydia lived nearby and had married Moses Wright at St. Nicholas, Nottingham on 27 Feb 1820 so there was a family connection within the borough.
Mary married WTD after his wife's death (I agree with you Sheila) and took WTD to her home village where he died in 21 June 1828. Mary then married the widowed William Doncaster of East Bridgford and Nottingham (a builder) at St. Nicholas, Nottingham on 20 May 1830. Doncaster was possibly her uncle by marriage (in Shelford 8 Nov 1808) to Lydia Willson, Mary's mother's sister.
William Doncaster built houses in Newton and in East Bridgford and probably in Nottingham too. It is likely that he also took on WTD senior's dyeing business - he went bankrupt in September 1837 and was described as a "Brick Maker and Dyer".
There is a picture of Ludgates on "Picture the Past" described as Ludgates Close but I don't know how to paste the link (sob!)
All for now, sleep beckons
Malc
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Hi Sheila
Thanks for the link to the Nottm University Archives site re Thomas Dickenson's wedding.
Through the link I have picked up the record of the marriage bond of Charlotte Richards and Isaiah Clarke at St. Peter, Nottingham in 1837.
As you know from my earlier posts Isaiah Clarke married Charlotte Chappell (widow) nee Richards on 14 November 1843, again at St. Peters "by licence". Possibly the second marriage of this couple.
I cannot find the bond for this marriage on the site and wonder if you can help me on this ? Could it have been a licence issued by the Bishop's rather than the Archdeacon's court I wonder ?
Best wishes
Malc
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Sheila and Malc,
I have a cd with the Notts Marriage Licences - it has those issued by the Archdeaconary Court 1701 - 1753 and those for the Peculiar of Southwell 1755 - 1853. Is it the latter you mean, Malc?
If it is, I've checked on the disc and there is nothing there.
Sheila are there others? I'm not sure if there will be, or not.
I gather that a licence could be issued somewhere else, and not necessarily the place where they married. If we can't find it in Notts, could it perhaps be with the Derbyshire licences (Lichfield) or even somewhere like Greater London? :-\ (bearing in mind that they spent time at these places, at one time time or another).
Sorry if I'm complicating matters, but in my experience ancestors don't always do what you expect them to do.
I noticed there are some deaths for Charlotte Clarkes in the Greater London registration area. Bearing in mind where the others have found their final resting places, then these might be worth investigating. Just a thought.
Goodnight to you both - hope you both have a good weekend.
Paulene :)
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hi pauline , ive been reading through this thred and found it most interesting , not the Dickinsons of my family as they came from Arnold .
However reading about the occupation of dyer,one on my lambert side of the family was a silk and lace dyer all his life and on his death cert it says master dyer , would he had served an apprentership or learned on the job ?
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Hi Malc, Hi Paulene,
And Hello SKy1……. :)
I was just about to agree with Paulene and say the license might be at Lichfield as when I first looked I couldn’t find it either, under bride and groom’s names didn’t come up with anything, it was under Richards that did the trick.
http://mss-cat.nottingham.ac.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Performance&dsqSearch=(PerformerRole==ROLEI41351)&dsqCmd=Show.tcl
It says Charlotte was a spinster, aged 21 although the age may not be accurate as it may just indicate she was of “full age”? and 21 is also the age given for Isaiah Clarke but his status is given as Widower.
Sheila :)
opps just realised.....it was this marriage bond that you found and it is Isaiah's second marriage you need :-[
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Hi Sheila and Paulene
Re the Peculiar of Southwell, yes you are right.
I've seen the entry for the 1837 wedding in St. Peter's register and both Charlotte and Isaiah are described as "of full age"
The witnesses to both weddings are Clarkes - none of Charlotte's family witnessed the register.
I am convinced that the two Charlottes are the same person. She lived out her life with Isaiah and died in 1870 in Nottingham - I will get her death certificate - won't tell us much apart from confirming her age but you never know.
I think I should look at the local press - there may have been some report of the scandal if that's what it was. Makes me wonder whether the licence for wedding number two had to be granted by a higher body than the peculiar if wedding number one was bigamous (straw clutching now !!).
Hello and welcome Sky 1
Spelling of surnames often changes - my Dickensons were sometimes recorded as Dickerson and Dickenson right up to the late 19th century. I have Whyleys who were variously Whyler, Whiley and Wyley. My wife has Irish origins and has O'Mearas and O'Maras and goodness knows what else !
Question for you - were your dyers Nottingham based ?
All for now
As ever, many thanks
Malc
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Hi everyone,
So, pleased you managed to find the thread SKy1 :)
I can't remember whether you said, on the thread we met up on, whether you lived near Nottingham - if you do then there is a wonderful index of apprentices in the Nottm Archives. If your ancestor's name is there, it will tell you who he served his apprenticeship with, when and sometimes the name of his father. If he was a Master dyer he must have served an apprenticeship - usually they served a seven year apprenticeship and had to produce evidence at the end that they could produce something to show the standard of their work. After this was done they then became burgesses/freemen of the town. (Framework knitters had to produce their 'masterpiece'). Occasionally one or two bought their way in, but I don't think this was the general rule. Many were by their parents and followed on in the family trade.
The apprenticeship index will probably tell you who were his apprentices, too, if he was a master.
As Malc, said give us a little bit more information and we can advise you were to look, SKy1.
Malc, I spent quite a while looking through the various entries for George Graham Chappell on the NA site - notice his involvement with his wife seems to have changed around 1839, and his various movements around the country. I was going to say I thought he must have died in the Glasgow area around 1842/43 (can't access Scottish deaths), but then found the new thread, so you've answered where and when. Not quite sure whether to put this new information on here, or the other thread, though :-\ But, as Sheila has been involved with this from the start I don't want to deprive her of any information - she's part of the team! Nice to have you with us, too, SKy1.
It would seem that George Graham's father was a cleric, who was curate and priest at Ortson, where G G and his brother, Joseph Wright Chappell, were born. Graham Chappell's father was William Chappell, attorney at law; and Graham married Maria Wright, hence Joseph's middle name. I'm pretty sure that Joseph Wright Chappell was a solicitor. Also, pretty certain that Graham Chappell's will is the one on documentsonline - there are some references to some valuable estates being sold in Essex on the TimesDigital Archives site for the year in question, 1834.
So, back to George Graham Chappell - it looks as if there was a court case with regard to his estate (PROB 37/1206 - these might be easier to find than most - looks as if they were pulled out from the main bulk at a later date so filed separately). he probably died intestate, but it is interesting that in 1844 Joseph Wright Chappell is described as George Graham's heir - DD/CH/3/69.
Was this because she remarried, or other reasons? Was the marriage annulled, was there a decree of separation (done privately maybe), or did George Graham form a new relationship? ???
I wonder if the answer lies in PROB 37/ 1206.
What do you all think?
Must answer my other posts now, and then I will see how your other post on GG is going , Malc.
Bye to all,
Paulene :)
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Hi everyone,
I've just been reading up about PROB 37 cases -
Causes - case or lawsuit
Now, I hope this is right - feel free to disagree if you think otherwise (I'm here to learn, too)
As I understand it, if you find a name in PROB 37 this establishes that there were exhibits in the case - could be wills, certificates, private diaries, account books, newspaper accounts, bibles, etc.
See:
www.rootschat.com/links/05vv
Paulene :)
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hi, Pauline , and others my ancestor who was a dyer was a William Lambert , born 1818 in every census bar one he is in the poor part of nottingham the narrow marsh, , his occupation is a dyer of lace , the bar one is in 1871 when he is a news agent in Drury lane, the following census he is back as a dyer .
Ive followed it through and it is the same William , so reading what you said about dyers working an apprentice made me wonder if he was on a good wage .And if so why he was in the narrow marsh .
Ive not followed him back further than the ancestry site, which is 1841, so would not know whether his father was a dyer also
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Hi SKy1,
Sorry it's taken me awhile to get back to you - I've been trying to get my husband interested in watching 'Coal House' - where three families from today go back to living in miner's cottages in Wales, as in the 1920s. Seems to be taking interest ;)
Anyway, back to your ancestors - William Lambert's father may be William Lambert married to Sarah, according to my cd. They were living in Knob Yard, Narrow Marsh, when their son was born - William is described as labourer. (I might have the wrong one, though).
Knob Yard is a couple of streets/yards away from where my husband's ancestors lived from the late 1600s onwards. They moved away from there in the late 1830s/40s when the area started filling up. They were silk framework knitters, but did other things. too. One, Joseph Richards was the constable in the Narrow Marsh area just just after the 'watch and ward' period in the 1810s.
The area only got bad after the 1850s, so if your family were there earlier they would have known a different Narrow Marsh; and because it was their home, decided to stay in the community they knew. I was talking to a lady whose family originated from an area near there, and she said that although it was a bit congested, etc - everyone looked out for on another and knew each other.
Have a look at this early map of Nottingham and you will see that up to about 1830 it was totally different - orchards, gardens, etc. Beacause of the restriction of building on the meadow area around Nottingham all the available inner city areas were built upon and that is why the landlords had to build on the available areas inside the city, to accomodate the growing number of workers migrating into the city.
www.rootschat.com/links/05w1
I you look at these two sites it explains why the dyers chose to work in that area:
www.rootschat.com/links/05w2
www.rootschat.com/links/05o2
Hope this helps you understand why your ancestors chose to live and stay in that particular area.
Bye for now,
Paulene :)
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Thought you might find this one useful, too, SKye1:
www.rootschat.com/links/05w3
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Hi Sheila, Pauline, Sky 1, et al
I think its time to consider closing this fantastic thread now and perhaps open some new ones to take several matters forward.
The marital conundrum involving Isaiah Clarke and Charlotte Chappell (nee Richards) is worthy of pursuit in a separate thread which I will open
The WTD issue is still ongoing. I will open a thread in the London bit of the site to ask e.g. can anyone confirm the WTD of Shoreditch was a dyer. And Paulene is awaiting the book, which may provide information on the old dyer. Shall we keep this thread open to cover your enquiries on this Paulene ?
Sky1 - do you fancy opening a thread relating to William Lambert ?
As I'm fairly new to Roots Chat (what a brilliant site) please let me know if my proposal is sound or whether there are better options to proceed.
Once again thank you all so much for your input so far. One of my long standing brickwalls - the origins of the dear old (Cockney !!??) Dyer, William Thomas Dickenson, my great great great grandad, has, thanks to you guys, been pretty well demolished. His name echoed down the years - some of my late grandad's long dead sisters had "Dickenson" as one of their middle names so the old man was remembered with pride, I trust, by that generation - despite the probable traumas of the Mary Whiley affair ! Can't help wondering what the first Mary Dickenson thought about the affair though - assuming she was the lady who ended her days at Richmond Hill !
Malc
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Hi Malc,
I can understand why you feel it might be a good idea to 'complete' or lock the thread. I've done this in the past, but probably to help rootschat in some ways. However, I've noticed that sometimes a complete surprise can turn up many months down the line if it is left open. Someone new to rootschat, or even doing a web search, can come upon the thread with some startling revelations.
I can also see why posting a new thread on the London board might help you find the information about the family in London - it gives those near resources a chance to check information they may have picked up in the past or maybe SKS may offer to look at one of the places/archives there. Plus, also brings new ideas and blood into the discussions/searches - always welcome.
I don't mind either way, Malc, as I can always pm the info to you - lets see what Sheila thinks.
I have to confess I'm curious to know whether you might pursue the PROB 37 thing, Malc. But that will come up on the Isaiah Clarke and Charlotte Chappell thread, won't it. I will watch with interest, Malc!
Let's see what Sheila thinks re this one.
Paulene :)
SKy1,
If you don't want to open a thread on William Lambert I'm happy to help you out, if I can - just contact me by pm.
Paulene :)
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Hello all…
I think you both have valid points.
I think because of the length of the thread it has become a bit difficult to follow but I also agree with Paulene that you never know who or what information will turn up later – I always keep in mind a lot of past posts I have tried to help on and I try and pass on any relevant family data I come across.
Not long ago I helped a rootschatter who’s relative who was a framesmith in Nottingham, he was later found in Derby and while browsing the old Derbyshire record office catalogue came across a reference for his Will, it wasn’t included in the listing of Wills they hold but was in a bundle of documents from a solicitors office that had been deposited with them……so you never know what might turn up!
I think you have to do what you feel comfortable with Malc; if you start a new post you could always put the link back to this thread to save any duplication?
Sheila.
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Thanks for your thoughts and advice ladies
I will keep this thread open, but see if I can get it moved from the "look-up requests" bit - I have been told that I cannot attach a the photograph of Ludgates as the thread is on a "Look-up Board".
Next step will be a thread on the London section for WTD and a new thread on the Nottingham section for Isaiah Clarke and Charlotte Richards/Chappell. I have dug out some old notes from years ago on marital separation before 1857 so will refer to that to see if anyone can help with ideas and info.
Thanks again
Malc
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Hi Malc + Sheila,
Well the book has arrived - I've not managed to read it all yet, but I've skimmed through it to see if anything significant to the thread came up.
It does mention that at some stage Henry and Carey, Christopher Norton Wright's parents, took the Crown Inn, at Croyden. And, Caroline Dickenson (William Thomas Dickenson's wife) died there in 1840 - according to family tree infomation on the 'Wright' family tree on ancestry.
Can't see any reference to Isaiah Clarke. Only one reference to a Mr Clarke, on page 36:
Re: Christopher Norton Wright - setting up his business as bookseller in Nottingham:
In January, 1807, I opened an account with Mr Charles Sutton, Bridlesmith gate, and obtained from him considerable credit, thus extending my business. I purchased a regular stall and corner and for convenience to the market put my stall and stock in an empty stable in the passage occupied by a Mr Clarke, Draper. However, after a few months, Mr Clarke quarrelled with my father and then seized all my stock in trade, stall, etc and charged me £5 for rent, although he had given me leave to use the stable free of charge as he did not use it for himself. This was a great misfortune to me as the money was equal to nearly all my effects in trade. I was, however, obliged to pay and when I did so, told him he was a villain, and that I should live to see him a pauper and an outcast and soon should be a better man than he was.
Although, as I said, I haven't read it all it does promise to be lovely story about a family's misfortunes and fortunes. Christopher Norton Wright was a kind husband and father who paints a picture of a God-fearing, gentle man who sadly loses four wives, but remains a devoted father and grandfather.
So, Malc - what next!?
Any developments?
Bye for now,
Paulene.
Hope this post finds you well, Sheila :) Take care.
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Hi Paulene
I put a post up on the London section to see if the WTD who married in Shoreditch was a Dyer.
No response on that score yet, but I did get some information on a partership he dissolved in Nottingham in 1809.
I also found out some less savoury information about his son WTD junior !
I don't know how to insert the link to the thread - and the Help Page seems to be unavailable, but if you go to the London Section you will spot the thread. The info is of interest to me as you will see !!
Haven't done the Isaiah Clarke - Charlotte Richards/Chappell/Clarke post yet - I'm trying to puzzle out where the licence for the second marriage is held - it's not on the University Archives on-line catalogue. Will need to speak to one or two experts in the church court field.
Thanks for the bit about Thomas and Caroline Dickenson. I have posted a message on Genes Reunited as I think I have traced a descendant of Thomas and Caroline.
Will keep you posted
Malc
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Hello Malc & Paulene…. :)
Paulene…the book sounds interesting; I will try and get a copy soon.
Malc…I did see your London post and WTD junior seems a bit of a character doesn’t he?
As for one of the son’s of Thomas & Caroline…the one I assume I found the baptism for in 1808 and spelt Willm….his full name must also have been William Thomas Dickenson ?
This must be the reference to his gravestone in Croydon cemetery (right hand side page about seventh line from the bottom)
http://www.archive.org/stream/croydoninpasthis00croy
This must be his death entry =
Deaths Dec 1871
Dickenson William Thomas aged 62 Croydon 2a 109
Aged 62 in 1871 gives his birth year as about 1809 which works out.
1871 - RG10/841/143/61- 51, North End, Croydon + a wife & two sons
William T Dickenson - born Nottingham abt 1809; occupation = Tailor
1861 - RG9/344/18/46 – 3, New St, Newington St Mary + wife 3 children & Mother in law
1851 - HO107/1573/42/ 26 –Kennington St Mark, Lambeth - 33, Mansion House St, + wife & 4 children
1841 - HO107/1055/35/18 – Lambeth
Best Wishes
Sheila.
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Goodness, Sheila - you've been working hard :D
The book is good; but I'm not sure it has lots of Nottingham facts - more the story of the man and his family. If you lived nearer I'd lend it to you.
I'm interested to hear what Malc, thinks of all this new information you've found.
Take care,
Paulene :)
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Sheila,
There's another one:
Will Thos Dickenson b. 1819
HO107 Piece 2139 Folio 547
So many of 'em! Gets confusing, doesn't it!
Paulene :)
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Hi Paulene and Sheila
My Genes Re-United contact is actually a descendant of the Wrights but has included Thomas Dickenson and Caroline Norton Wright family.
She has a William Thomas Dickinson (sic) born on 3 December 1808, died Croydon 5 Oct 1871. In addition she has Charles Dickinson (sic) born 1815 and Mary Ann Dickinson (sic) born Nottingham 1 Feb 1810, died Croydon 21 August 1875.
The William Thomas Dickenson from 1819 you have picked up Paulene is probably mine, technically, I guess, he was baptised as William Thomas Whyley and acquired/was given the name Dickenson when WTD's wife died and he married Mary Whyley
Incidentally I establish from the Nottingham Journal that WTD junior (mine) was put in gaol for debt and discharged on 5 April 1843. He had been lodging with his father-in-law Isaiah Clarke in Beeston, together with his wife, eldest daughter Mary Jane Dickenson born 1841 and eldest son Isaiah William Dickenson, born Beeston in Nov. 1842.
WTD then shoots off to his step uncle Joseph Doncaster in Morton, Notts, then to a carrier's house, William Miller on Carter Gate, Newark before returning to Isaiah Clarke in Beeston where he is caught up with, arrested and put in gaol.
I have yet to read the court case, but there are two thoughts in my mind either WTD was a wastrel or his dyeing business had failed for commercial reasons - or both !
Back to the other family - I will have a look at the London/Croydon connection. I guess the family split around the time of death of Mary Dickenson in 1823 or a bit earlier when Mary Whyley produced the baby in 1819. A bit of me wonders whether the boy was really WTD senior's or maybe his son Thomas Dickenson (who was living in Rutland Street presumably with his father, Mary Whyley, and his wife Caroline) had something to do with events - if you follow my drift !
Thanks again for your help - I've still got to do the Charlotte Richards/Chappell and Isaiah Clarke post !!
KRs
Malc
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Hi Malc,
I read your post earlier, but was in the middle of tracking down another elusive family, so thought Id come back to you later.
I must admit it did take me a while "to catch your drift" - so much has happened in this thread!
If I've got this right, William Thomas Dickenson jnr was allegedly the son of Mary Whiley and old WTD, but you're wondering whether he might in fact have been the son of Thomas Dickenson. might explain why they all went their separate ways after, Malc. I suspect that sort of thing happend in many families, and "arrangments" were come to to keep things quiet. Don't suppose we shall ever know.
The debtor's prison doesn't sound that bad:
www.rootschat.com/links/05y9
In one of the old books I came across that a Joseph Hall was in the debtor's prison for a short spell - might well be one of ours :-\ Not sure, yet.
Malc, I see that lots of new LMA records are starting to come up on the ancestry site - its not all there yet; but I had a quick look for Dickensons but nothing as yet. (Best to check, just in case I missed anything). But, it is in it's infancy.
Have you thought about putting on a post entitled 'Anyone going to the Guildhall Manuscripts Library?' If anyone is going I wouldn't think it would take them long to look on the microfiche for an apprenticeship record. Just a thought.
I know the thread has been complicated, and a bit long-winded, but I've really enjoyed working alongside you and Sheila.
I'll keep a look out for the new thread. Good luck.
Take care - hope the football's on tomorrow ;)
Paulene :)
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Hi Paulene
Thanks for the advice on the Guildhall Manuscripts Library - I'll post a thread on the London section.
Although I have been musing on the biological father of WTD jnr, the gravestone of WTD senior in Shelford churchyard makes it very clear that his then wife, Mary Whiley as was, wants the world to know that WTD was a loving father (to WTD jnr). But then she would say that, wouldn't she ! As you say we'll never know.
Football was good thanks - wonderful weather for once
KRs
Malc