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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: ian55 on Tuesday 17 February 09 20:38 GMT (UK)
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In a distant corner of my Scottish family tree sits William Constable born 1771 in Cupar Fife. He was a Jeweller/Silversmith/Clockmaker in Dundee and died there in 1833.
However there is a handwritten family tree produced c1910 which refers to his first wife "Betsy Woodward Hants". The writing is not clear and I am not certain about the word Hants which may of course refer to Hampshire.
It goes on to refer to his second wife Margaret McRitchie who was said to have been born in Dunkeld Perthshire and states they were married at St Pancras Church London 2 October 1803.
I discovered burial records in Dundee which refer to their daughter Ann Constable as being born at St Pancras London. I found a book on Scottish Clockmakers which suggests William Constable was in Dundee c1806 so I am guessing Ann Constable was born c1804/5.
Has the Old Parish Register for St Pancras for this period survived? Does anyone have access to it to look up and confirm this marriage and birth? Apart from the names and dates does the Register include any reference to status such as single or widower or occupation of the parties?
I am guessing William was in London to learn his trade but I am somewhat surprised that Margaret was in London and they did not marry in Scotland so any additional information would be very helpful.
Ian55
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Hi Ian
The marriage can be found on the IGI at www.familysearch.org
William Constable and Margaret McRichie 2 OCT 1803 Old Church, Saint Pancras, Batch M047937
The surviving registers have been deposited at the London Metropolitan Archives.
The registers has been filmed by the LDS, ref 0598179, and can be ordered and viewed at a local family history centre
There is no mention on the IGI for a baptism (film 0597804) but that doesn't mean it is not there. I know of many instances where things have been 'missed off'.
There may or maynot be reference to status, (some entries have it some don't), there won't be ages (unless a minor), occupations or father's names unless they acted as witnesses and you recognise them.
Dawn
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Dear Dawn,
Thank you so much for your help. I will try that and see what I can find.
Ian55
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Hi Ian
You haven't updated your profile so we don't know where in the world you are.
If you're in the UK, do you have an LDS family history centre near you?
http://www.londonfhc.org/content/other-uk-centres
Dawn
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I am in East Kilbride. I could get to the one in the west end of Glasgow which is only about an hour by bus. I will give them a phone and arrange a visit.
Ian55
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Good luck and happy hunting ;D
If you have any problems let us know, I'm sure we can help you out down here, (but a lot of the fun is doing it for yourself)
Dawn
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Hello Ian55,
I noticed that you were distantly related to William Constable of Dundee. I've been doing some research on him from the silversmithing side of things and was up in Dundee last week, where I took this photograph of his gravestone in the Old Howff (sorry, but I can't figure out how to attach the pic). I'd already suspected that Ann Constable was not Margaret McRitchie's daughter (the dates were wrong) and that there must have been a previous marriage. Your post seems to confirm that.
And I noticed that somewhere else in your postings you referred to Robert Robertson, goldsmith, of Cupar Fife. Is he related to William Constable at all? Or is there another connection? I thought RR had gone off to California and Australia. Did he come back?
I'll be happy to pass on any information that I have about the Constables in Dundee. Here are some of the death records of WC's children at the Old Howff. As you can see, Ann Constable was born in 1798 or 1799.
3762 Constable Ann 28 May 1846 47 St Pancras, London Convulsions Daughter of the late William Constable jeweller Nethergate
3785 Constable Georgina 28 Feb 1849 30 Dundee Dropsy Daughter of late William Constable jeweller Nethergate
3824 Constable Marjory 25 Nov 1850 31 Dundee Pulmonary consumption Daughter of the late William Constable jeweller Nethergate
3829 Constable Patrick Nimmo 9 Jun 1852 30 Dundee Clerk Spitting of blood from lungs Son of late William Constable jeweller Nethergate
3814 Constable Margaret 12 Jan 1853 48 Dundee Consumption Daughter of late William Constable jeweller Nethergate
inarcadia
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Hi inarcadia,
Thanks for your posting. I have in fact already visited Dundee myself and took a photograph of of the gravestone at The Old Howff.
The c1910 Family Tree which I first mentioned is unclear on the point but does suggest to me that Ann Constable may be a daughter of the second marriage. There is the possibility that the death record giving her age as 47 is a mistranscription for either 41 or 42. I was hoping to find the record of her birth in St. Pancras to resolve this discrepancy.
I am not aware of any connection to Robert Robertson the goldsmith in Cupar. I only replied to someone's posting on the Fife Message Board because another Constable (Alexander) who became a Watchmaker and Jeweller in Kirkcaldy was born in Cupar.
I am however interested when you say you are researching from the Silversmithing side of things. I would be interested in finding out more about William Constable's career in London before he set up in Dundee. I am not sure if he went to London to be an apprentice or for experience in the trade. Although he must have been well enough off to get married for the second time in St. Pancras in 1803.
He also had a younger brother George Constable born in Cupar in 1783 who was also a Jeweller possibly in Edinburgh where he married in 1810 and/or in Cupar where his wife died in 1814. I once saw online some provincial hallmarks of his with the comment that he was active in the period 1810-1820.
Can you suggest any avenues of research for me?
Ian55
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Hi Ian55,
I found the following information this afternoon and you can check it for yourself on FamilySearch.org:
A William Constable married Jane Woodward in St Bride’s Fleet Street on 6 September 1795. It’s too much of a coincidence (Betsy Woodward Hants) not to be right, isn’t it?
And IGI (Familysearch) gives a birth date of 17 June 1798 for Ann Constable, christened 11 July 1798 at St Luke, Old Street, Finsbury, London; Father William Constable; Mother Jane (no surname given).
There was a Janney Woodward christened on 29 Sept 1771 at St Mary’s, Portsea, Hampshire
As for William Constable's career in London I'm afraid I know nothing yet. George Constable marked his work sometimes for Dundee and sometimes with just his GC.C stamp clumsily and several times. This mark is also found on pieces sent to Edinburgh for assay (neatly struck!).
Their mother was Ann Thomson and one of the silver sites (http://www.silvercollection.it/SCOTTISHSILVERSMITHSCUPAR.html) lists a Robert Thomson as a silversmith (of whom I know nothing). Perhaps this family connection is the route into silversmithing for the brothers Constable.
As you probably know, William's son Alexander took over the business on his father's death in 1833, but I know of no connection of him to Kirkcaldy. Is the Alexander Constable you refer to related?
William's son Alexander disappears sometime after 1841 and intended to travel to California but I have found no further trace so far.
I'd be very grateful for any information you might have on George Constable, or on William's son William, a writer (clerk) in Edinburgh, who would have been the next in line to inherit after Janet Constable (Bruce's) death. Unless Alexander came back from California!
Or anything you might know about William in London. I'll let you know what I discover, if anything.
Good luck with your research!
inarcadia
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Hi inarcadia,
What great finds!! The marriage in Fleet Street 1795, the christening in Old Street 1798 and the second marriage in St Pancras 1803 are all within a reasonably short distance of each other which also adds to the circumstantial evidence.
GEORGE CONSTABLE 1783-1819
As you may have heard scotlandspeople have just put OPR burial/death records online and I have found George Constable died 1 August 1819 at Cupar aged 40 years--Failing. The age is a little overstated but from what else I have found this is likely to be the same man.
He married Margaret Gentle and Banns were read (1) in Edinburgh 15 December 1810 George Constable, Merchant, College Church Parish and Margaret Gentle Parish of Dunkeld daughter of Alexander Gentle, Farmer there and (2) in Dunkeld 10 January 1811 George Constable parish of Cupar in Fife and Margaret Gentle in Dunkeld.
They had two children Catherine Gentle Constable and Margaret Thomson Constable both born in Cupar before his wife Margaret Gentle died in 1814 in Cupar. There is a gravestone at Cupar Parish Church which reads "Erected by George Constable in memory of Margaret Gentle his spouse who died 13 March 1814 aged 32 years". The death of George himself is not mentioned on the gravestone but if he died in 1819 in Cupar it seems likely he was also buried in the same lair.
I am not aware that George had any middle name and I wondered if his hallmark "GC.C" might stand for "George Constable. Cupar".
I will post further info on the other Constable silversmiths later.
Ian55
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Hi again inarcadia,
WILLIAM CONSTABLE 1771-1833
This is the older brother of George previously mentioned. It appears that after his second marriage to Margaret McRitchie in London in 1803 he settled in Dundee. On a visit to Dundee Reference Library I found the following which I have copied from an email to the family :-
We found two other interesting books at the library. Firstly there was a book entitled Old Scottish Clockmakers 1453-1850 by John Smith which says that clockmakers (and presumably watchmakers as well) were admitted to the Trade Incorporation of Hammermen and lists:-
William Constable, Dundee 1806
William Constable, Dundee 1812-1828
George Constable, Cupar 1814
Alexander Constable, Dundee 1838.
I could not find an explanation of what the dates meant in the book but perhaps they are dates when they joined the Incorporation. I am assuming that the entries for William are the same man as they seem to fit roughly with his time in Dundee. We know that George was the younger brother of William and that Alexander was the son of William.
The second book was a series of annual Trade/Post Office Directories for Dundee the earliest being 1809 which lists:-
William Constable Jeweller High Street
The 1818 edition lists:-
William Constable Jeweller Silversmith and Watchmaker 5 High Street
The 1829/30 edition lists:-
William Constable Jeweller and Watchmaker 7 High Street, House Skirvings Close
The 1834 edition (after William's death) lists:-
Alex. Constable Watchmaker Jeweller and Silversmith 7 High Street
The 1840/41 edition lists:-
Alexander Constable Watchmaker and Jeweller 7 High Street, Home Albert Close Nethergate
The 1842/43 edition lists:-
Mrs William Constable Watchmaker and Jeweller 7 High Street, House Albert Close 37 Nethergate (This suggests that son Alexander had left Dundee by this time)
The last entry for the shop is in 1850:-
Mrs W. Constable Jeweller 7 High Street, House Nethergate
The final entry is in 1858/59:-
Mrs William Constable Rankine's Close Murraygate
The other exciting piece of news relates to son Alexander Constable 1810-?? who first erected the gravestone. He was also a Jeweller and was apparently running the family business in Dundee with his mother in the 1841 Census. When he married Ann McLean in Glasgow in 1848 he was said to be a Jeweller residing in Barony Parish Glasgow. I could find no trace of them in Scotland after that, either in the Censuses or Death Certs.
However the Will of his mother Margaret McRitchie or Constable who died in 1859 is recorded in the books of Dundee Sheriff Court and has a provision which starts:-
In case my son Alexander Constable who went to California some years ago shall return to Scotland within five years after my decease.....
I hope this is of use to you.
Ian55.
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Hi again inarcadia,
ALEXANDER CONSTABLE 1845-1926
This is a different Alexander and is not to be confused with the Alexander 1810- ?? who was the son of William in Dundee.
This Alexander was born in Cupar and was a great-nephew of William and George previously mentioned. According to the book Fife Shopkeepers and Traders 1820-1870 which I saw at Cupar Library he was a Clock/Watch Maker and Jeweller of High Street Kirkcaldy from 1870 onwards but he was initially a working jeweller from Thomas Duncan & Son of Cupar. I see that the Duncans are mentioned in the silver website.
Kirkcaldy Museum hold the ceremonial gold key which was made by Alexander Constable in 1892 for the grand opening of Beveridge Park in Kirkcaldy.
If I can be of any further help please let me know.
Ian55
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Hi Ian,
Thanks for all of that. Very interesting. Well, you seem to have looked in all the same books that I have. You do not list a Dundee Directory for 1841-42 (if one ever existed); there was no copy in the Dundee Archivist's office. And you evidently also have a copy of Margaret Constable's will. Don't you think it's strange that she seems unaware of her son Alexander's marriage? And the import of the Dundee Directories seems to be that Alexander had left the business in Dundee by 1842/43. Perhaps he told a fib about going to California?
I found this on The Scotsman's digital archive:
http://edu.archive.scotsman.com/article.cfm?id=TSC/1851/07/26/Ar00126
Says this (from The Scotsman: Saturday 26th July, 1851)
ELIGIBLE OPENING
JEWELLER, SILVER PLATE, WATCH-MAKING &c
MRS WILLIAM CONSTABLE respectfully intimates to those valued Friends and the Public who so long supported her late Husband, and of late herself, in the above business, that a recent family bereavement has forced upon her the thoughts of giving it up, should a suitable offerer come forward for a Lease of the Shop, and to take Stock, Fixtures, &c, at valuation.
Mrs W.C. hopes her Friends and the Public will accept of her sincere and grateful thanks for all the kindness she has experienced at their hands.
The above business has been successfully carried on for above forty years in the same Shop, No. 7 High Street, Dundee, and a more eligible opening in the Jewellery, Silver Plate, and Watchmaking business rarely occurs. Dundee, it is well known, is one of the most flourishing and increasing towns in the kingdom, and the said Shop is in a first-rate situation.
Those intending to treat will please address to Mrs W. Constable, 7 High Street, Dundee.
Dundee, 3d July 1851.
What I would really like to know would be the names of the journeymen who might have worked in Constable's shop in the late 1820s, early 1830s. But goodness knows how I can find that out. And I would like to know what William Constable was doing in London around 1795. It seems likely that he would have done an apprenticeship in Scotland, but he might have then spent a couple of years learning the business side of things in London (on behalf of his master?).
But I will let you know if and when I turn up anything new.
Thanks again,
inarcadia
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Hi inarcadia,
I will start by thanking you for posting the Scotsman advert. As this includes little personal details it is of particular interest to me. I can tell you that in the 1859 Inventory of her Estate there is an item:-
Proportion of the rent of the shop in High Street Dundee
belonging to the Deceased occupied by William Alston, Jeweller there
due at Deceased's death
So it would appear that he bought the business in 1851.
It is my recollection that some of the Dundee Directories were annual and some were bi-annual. I think that 1840-41 and 1842-43 are consecutive volumes.
I only found out about her son Alexander going to California from Margaret Constable's Will. The provision relating to Alexander does go on to at least mention his wife although not by name. Do you have a copy of her Will or did you find out about California from another source?
Alexander is in the 1841 Census at Albert's Court Dundee with his mother and a number of brothers and sisters. His occupation is given as Jeweller. He is also in the 1840-41 Directory but not the next volume which suggests he left Dundee perhaps late 1841 or early 1842. He appears to have been living and working in Glasgow when he married in 1848. As I cannot find him in the 1851 Census or later I think that he did go to California sometime shortly after 1848.
Ian55
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Hi Ian,
Yes, I have a copy of Margaret Constable's will and inventory and when I read it for the first time I got the impression that MC did not know whether AC was married or not. But now I look again I find the passage ambiguous:
“. . .and under the real[?] burden of paying the sum of One Hundred pounds Sterling to the widow of the said Alexander Constable in case he shall die during the foresaid space of five years leaving a widow, and in case she shall come to Scotland before the expiration of that period, to claim payment of the foresaid sum.”
I might see if I can get a [Scottish] legal interpretation of that passage.
I realise you are an experienced researcher and unlikely to make simple errors, so can you please tell me how you are certain that the 1848 marriage in Glasgow of an Alexander Constable jeweller is that of MC's son? It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that there would be another jeweller of that name. Are AC's parents named, or his place of birth given on the record?
And thank you for the information about William Alston. Yes, I knew that from MC's will.
Laurence
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Hi Laurence,
So far as the Will is concerned I do not think there is anything difficult about the provision for Alexander's wife/widow. The executors would simply hold £100 for five years against the possibility of her turning up within the five year period failing which the executors would then pay the £100 to the other named beneficiaries.
You are quite right to say there is nothing in the marriage entry for Alexander Constable in 1848 to identify him as the son of William Constable and Margaret McRitchie apart from his occupation as a Jeweller which could be a coincidence. Any researcher outside the family might make an educated guess but could not be certain.
However, I have the benefit of the handwritten family tree made c1910 which shows Alexander as the fourth child of the marriage and names his wife as Ann McLean. It does not give dates and does not mention that they had any children.
I concluded that a second coincidence of the bride's name was still not 100% but coupled with their non appearance in later censuses and the mention of going to California in the Will was as close to a certainty as I was going to get.
I can give you a little more about the other people named in the Will later once I check my notes.
Ian55
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Hi Ian,
Ah yes! I was forgetting the handwritten family tree. That explains it. So I guess William Constable junior, as the only survivor, inherited in the end. I seem to remember his sister Janet (Bruce) died in the same year as her mother. Does that mean you are distantly related through William junior? And how on earth did you find a handwritten family tree (you don't have to tell me).
A shot in the dark: have you ever come across the name James Sturrock, also a silversmith[?], in connection with William Constable in his time as a silversmith in Dundee? There is a maker with the initials JS, whom some take to be James Sturrock of Montrose (and earlier in Dundee). I've found a connection between his (JS's) usual marks and some of the marks used by Constable. Perhaps JS worked as a journeyman in Constable's workshop.
Yes, if you get time I'd be very interested to hear about the other people mentioned in MC's will.
Many thanks,
Laurence
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Hi,
The IGI also has,
Jane CONSTABLE
Christening: 01 AUG 1802 Saint Luke, Chelsea, London
Father: William CONSTABLE
Mother: Jane
I also found this burial,
Jane CONSTABLE
Age: 39
Date of burial: 14 April 1803
Place of burial: Bunhill Fields
Address at death: Lamb's Buildings, Bunhill Row
Possibly William's first wife, seems to be in the right area,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunhill_Fields
Regards
Daisy
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Hi Daisypetal,
Yes, that's all in the right time and place. Thanks very much. Do you have a particular interest in the Constables?
Laurence
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Hi,
No sorry, no particular interest in the CONSTABLEs, just saw I might be able to lend a hand :)
Daisy
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Hi Laurence,
Sorry for the delay but I have been busy on other things. Sorry also to report I have no information on James Sturrock or anyone else who may have worked for William Constable the Jeweller.
Yes, according to the gravestone in Dundee daughter Janet Constable or Bruce died a few months after her mother but as she did survive her mother she would still inherit her half share and then on her death her estate would be inherited presumably by her husband and/or by her children. As far as I can tell the Bruces had four children, one of whom Robert Bruce born Dundee 1841 may have started the enquiries which led to the handwritten family tree.
The other half share went to William Constable junior 1813-1876.
1813 born in Dundee
1841 Census appears with the family at Albert's Court Dundee described as a Clerk.
1851 Census I think he is in Edinburgh living at a Lodging House and described as a Managing Clerk.
1852 he married his cousin Mary Constable in Edinburgh. She was the daughter of Alexander Constable 1778-1831 Farmer at Craigsanquhar Parish of Leuchars Fife. They had a total of eight children between 1853 and 1865.
1861 Census he is living at 2 Lauriston Terrace Edinburgh described as a Clerk to a WS
1871 Census he is living at 2 Broughton Street Edinburgh described as a General Clerk
1876 died at 12 Dryden Street Pilrig Edinburgh described as an Iron Company's Clerk
You will remember from the Will that William was also named as one of the Executors along with two others. Peter Walker, Farmer at Nydie (which is near St. Andrews) declined to accept office. He was also known as "of Kingask" which is near Cupar and he was a JP. He lived from 1793-1861 and is buried at Cupar. He was a relative being a married to a niece of William Constable the Jeweller. I have not been able to establish any family connection to the other Executor Robert Gibb Stephen.
Ian55
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Hi Ian,
I just picked your last posting up at the end of the day. I'll read it on the Tube.
If you take a look on:
http://us-census.org/pub/usgenweb/census/ca/sacramento/1850/pg0187b.txt
and:
http://www.censusfinder.com/california.htm
for Alex and Ann Constable, you should find the following:
---------------------Begin Actual Transcription---------------------------
CENSUS YR: 1850 STATE: CA COUNTY: Sacramento DIVISION: Sacramento City REEL NO: M432-35 PAGE NO: 187B
REFERENCE: 19th Nov, 1850 by Wm N Johnson
====================================================================================================================================
LN HN FN LAST NAME FIRST NAME AGE SEX RACE OCCUP. VAL. BIRTHPLACE MRD. SCH. R/W DDB REMARKS
====================================================================================================================================
1 1046 1098 Cross Ansil C 36 M . Trader . Vt . . . . .
2 1047 1099 Conger Thomas 47 M . Boarding House . N.J. . . . . .
3 1047 1099 Conger Sarah M 35 F . . . N.Y. . . . . .
4 1047 1099 Conger Maria A 17 F . . . Ohio . . . . .
5 1047 1099 Conger Hannah C 14 F . . . Mich . . . . .
6 1047 1099 Conger Charles C 10 M . . . Mich . . . . .
7 1047 1099 Conger Thomas J F 2 M . . . Mich . . . . .
8 1048 1100 McMahan Morgan 24 M . Boarding House 800 Ind . . . . .
9 1048 1100 Prather Nicholis 21 M . Teamster 800 Ky . . . . .
10 1048 1100 Prather Joseph 16 M . Teamster . Ind . . . . .
11 1048 1100 Heswitt David 23 M . . 700 Ills . . . . .
12 1048 1100 Hatslar Jos G 36 M . Teamster . Va . . . . .
13 1049 1101 Constable Alex 40 M . Boarding House . Scot X . . . .
14 1049 1101 Constable Ann 34 F . . . Scot X . . . .
15 1049 1102 McKail James 38 M . Washerman . Eng X . . . .
16 1049 1102 McKail Elizabeth 21 F . . . Eng X . . . .
17 1049 1102 McKail Sacramento 3/165 F . . . California . . . . .
There's also an entry for 1860.
I'll be in touch again soon.
Laurence
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Hi Laurence,
What a fantastic find !! Do they have any children in 1860?
Ian55
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Hi Ian,
I haven't seen the photograph of the record and I don't even know if children are listed. But I think it's on Ancestry.com, but I don't have a subscription. Perhaps one of the RootWeb Aristocrats can help – DaisyPetal?
Laurence
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Hi,
I think I've found Alexander and Ann going to America,
Alexander CONSTABLE age:36 Occupation: gentleman
Ann CONSTABLE age: 30 Occupation: immigrant
Ship: Lisbon
Embarkation: Glasgow
Compartment: Cabin
Native Country: Great Britain
Destination: USA
Arrival Date: 11 Sep 1848
Transit Type: Staying in the U.S.
You can also find them at CastleGarden.org,
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06fm/
No children in 1860,
Year: 1860
Census Place: Sacramento Ward 4, Sacramento, California
Roll: M653_63 Page: 559 Image: 566
Alex CONSTABLE 49 Housekeeper Value of Personal Estate: 300 POB: Scot
Anna " " 40 POB: Scot
Their ages seem to have been overwritten so might not be reliable.
I can't find them after this.
Daisy
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Hi Daisy,
Thank you so much for taking the trouble to find and post this information. I have no doubt these are the right people.
At one time I had harboured the notion of them sailing round Cape Horn to join the California gold rush but I still think it must have been very brave of them to consider sailing across the Atlantic in 1848 and then overland to California to set up a Boarding House in Sacramento. Sadly it seems they had no children so there are no long lost cousins in California.
Ian55
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Hi Ian and DaisyPetal,
Thank you both very much for your help on this. This particular Constable line seems to come to an end here, but who knows? It would be interesting to discover if Alexander Constable did any gold- or silver-smithing in California (plenty of gold around) but I think that will have to wait for a trip to the US.
Laurence (inarcadia)
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Hi Ian55,
I have been chasing down McRitchies in Perthshire for a short time, looking for antecedents of my 4th great grandfather, George McRitchie (abt 1781-1863) who was a baker at Strathallan Castle, Blackford Parish. The record of his death in the statutory registers gives his birth as Dunkeld and parents as John McRitchie, baker (dec) and Janet Reid (dec) (329/00 0025 Auchterader) Interestingly, George was also married to his first wife Martha Trench or French, in London in 1803 -- this marriage occurred at St Saviours, Southwark, London.
When I noticed the similarities with your Constable/McRitchie marriage, I began to look at the OPR births for Margaret McRitchie Constable's children... the Dundee parish births at this time often record the namesake of the child... no disappointment there, William and Margaret Constable's daughter Janet b 21 Oct 1807, was named after "J.Reid, grandmother". ( 282/00 0090 0283 Dundee)
So it is possible that your Margaret McRitchie Constable was a sister of my George McRitchie, and that they were both in London at the same time.
George McRitchie and his wife Martha also moved back to Scotland by December of 1812, when the birth of their daughter Mary is recorded in the Muthill Episcopal Records, and their address is given as North Gate Strathallen House, Blackford Parish, Perthshire. My 3x great grandmother, Margaret McRitchie, and at least 4 other children were born there as well, before Martha died (between 1820 and 1822). George then remarried to Ann Sorley, and he is listed in the statutory deaths as widower of Ann.
I should mention that Georgina Constable is recorded as being named after her maternal grandfather in the OPR births (082/00 0090 0523 Dundee), whereas the father's name as recorded on the statutory death register for my George McRitchie, the baker, is John. It is possible that two McRitchies could have married two J. Reids and had children in Dunkeld. However, it is also possible that the name John was reported incorrectly. William McRitchie, the son who reported George's death, was born about 1817, when his own father was nearing 40, and may never have known his grandparents personally.
Although I suspect kinship, I have not been able to locate records to positively identify the name of the father and siblings of George McRitchie, the baker. My research is conducted from afar, which complicates matters! I will let you know if anything develops, and please let me know if anything turns up on your end.
Thanks-
Gener8or
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Hi Gener8or,
Thanks for your posting. There is no doubt in my mind that your George McRitchie d1863 and my Margaret McRitchie or Constable d1859 are brother and sister both being children of George McRitchie and Janet Reid of Dunkeld.
The handwritten family tree produced c1910 mentioned in my original posting gives some clues to support this.
It also mentions specifically that George McRitchie and Janet Reed (sic) were married at Dunkeld on 25 Nov 1773.
It would be good to compare notes in greater detail so I will send you a PM.
Ian55
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Hi Ian & Gener8or
You need a post count of 2 or more to be able to use the personal message (pm) system.
Ian, unless someone else has beaten you to it, you may be able to send 1 pm, if not you get an error message.
Gener8or, you need to make one more post to be able to reply to a pm.
Hope this helps.
Dawn
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Hi Gener8or,
It seems you may not have received my PM so I will repeat it here.
I have just now found the Marriage of your George McRitchie and Martha French in London in 1803 on Ancestry.
I recognise the two witnesses as sisters of your George McRitchie. There is Margaret McRitchie who goes on to marry William Constable later that year and there is Jean Shed who appears in the handwritten family tree as "Jean (McRitchie) married George Shed". This is the first time I have seen anything to confirm this entry. So thanks for that.
I also have another sister of your George McRitchie. This is Mary McRitchie who married George Stewart, a Sergeant in the 42nd Regiment of Foot (Black Watch). They had a daughter who was married twice and had three children.
I also have a brother of your George McRitchie called John McRitchie but I have not been able to find out anything about him yet.
Ian55
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Sorry I have been offline handling other family matters :).
I have the marriage of George McRitchie and Janet Reid (Reed, Read) from the OPRs as follows:
[1773] Novr 6th George McRichie, baker, and Janet Read. (OPR Marriages DUNKELD 349/00 0010 0423). The date is pretty close to that in your handwritten account.
Yes, I have Mary McRitchie as well. She appears in the OPRs as follows: "March 19, [1776], George MacRitchie, baker, had a daughter born and baptized 26th, named Mary" (Dunkeld, 349/00 0010 0220). There is also this note: OPR Marriage Banns Dunkeld 1798: Proclamations:
"Dougal McPhail, private in the 2nd fencible regiment and Mary McRichie of this town" Feb 11, 1798. 349/00 0010 0452. There is no confirmation that the ceremony actually took place, although the banns were read. I have not had much success chasing down Dougal McPhail. But it is interesting that you have her marrying another military man, George Stewart. What is the documentation for that marriage, and where did it occur? I will see if that name leads me anywhere.
RE: John McRitchie, brother of Mary, Margaret and George. I do have the documentation of his birth on 5 October 1784 in Dunkeld (OPR, Dunkeld 349/00 0010 0226). Not much other information though. Where did you run across him?
RE: sister Jean who married George Shed. This is very interesting. I thought it logical to search for a sister named Jean or Jane or Janet, but have not been able to find a definitive OPR documentation of birth. There is only one Jean MacRitchie in the OPR births for Dunkeld, she is listed as born 25th Aug and baptized 27th Aug 1774, (OPR, Dunkeld 349/00 0010 0226) dau of George MacRitchie _____ (illegible) to his grace the Duke of Atholl. It is not clear that this is our same George McRitchie, baker and husband of Janet Reid. There is also a George MacRitchie who is a gamekeeper for the Duke of Atholl and this entry may pertain to him.
I am very encouraged that our information seems to overlap.
Thanks
Gener8or
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PS just found this in the Dunkeld OPR marriages:
Nov'r 25th [1794] James Shade, baker in Dundee, and Jean MacRitchie.
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Sorry that was recorded in the OPR as Jean MacRitchie (not Janet as previously reported)
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PS just found this in the Dunkeld OPR marriages:
Nov'r 25th [1794] James Shade, baker in Dundee, and Jean MacRitchie.
Hi,
This couple, James Shade/Shed/Sheed and Jean MacRichie are my husband's family.
I am wondering if it is possible to tell me who the witnesses to the marriage were.
Thanks,
Abi.
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Hi Abi,
Sadly there are no witnesses mentioned in the register. The entry is simply as quoted by Gener8or.
I don't have anything further on the descendants of James Shade/Shed/Sheed and Jean MacRitchie so I'd certainly be interested in hearing more about your husband's branch of the family.
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Jean Macritchie married James (Shade/Shed/Sheed) 25th Nov 1794 Dunkeld, Perthshire.
They had George b 16th Sep 1795 Dundee Angus (c 2nd Oct 1795).
Then they seemed to move to London.
James was buried 29th Jan 1806 in Southwark, Surrey.
Jean remarried 1st Jan 1809 Thomas Ogilvie a widower.
I have recently found another son born to James and Jean; James, c 13th May 1798, Southwark, Surrey. James seems to have died, Mar 1835 37 yrs, after marrying Caroline Ann and having 6 children that I have found, all c at St Andrews Undershaft between 1824 and 1834.
George the older son, my husband's ancestor, m Sarah Floyd 20th Aug 1822, St Mary Whitechapel. They had 9 children from 1823 to 1843. They lived in Marylebone. George died in 1873.
They were known as SHEED in London. This is how the spelling was passed down.
My problem is however, James (Shade/Shed/Sheed), that m Jean Macritchie in Dunkeld, is a bit of a mystery man.
He is not the James Sheed c 1770 in Calbrach Aberdeen as some think. That James must have died because there was another James born to that family c 1778 who married someone else and had a family in Calbrach.
Thanks,
Gail.
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Hi. Robert Robertson you refere to is my great great grandfather. He came to Australia vi America but stayed her and became a Jeweller in Melbourne. I believe his connection to the Constables is That Toberts father (also Robert Robertson) took over his buisiness when he retired.
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Hi, Ive only just joined this site and excited to find that Genor8or was searching my 4x great grandfather - George McRitchie. I'm following the line down to his daughter Margaret and her husband Robert Anderson. I will print this page out and follow this with interest!
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Hi Sue
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
This is quite an old topic and Genor8or hasn't been online here since 2011 despite additions to the topic.
I can try sending him a personal message to let him know that you have posted and see what happens but if his email address has changed since then, he won't get any notifications.
However, the others who've also posted here might be interested in your reply.
Dawn
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Hi Gail,
It's great to see your posting about my ancestors.
My father (who passed away many years ago) was a Sheed and is a descendant of the James Sheed (Shade/Shed) from Dunkeld who you mention.
I traced my family tree on my father's side a good few years ago and was able to build a great picture of the whole family, especially the Sheeds who were living in London (having moved down from Scotland).
Please feel free to message me on here and I would be happy to share my findings with you.
All the best,
Laura