RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Suanne on Tuesday 17 February 09 19:09 GMT (UK)
-
Hi,
can somebody help me? I have found the birth 25.05.1847 Peterborough, marriage 11.02.1878 Grantham and death June 1902 Whittlesey, of my gg grandfather Richard DOLBY. He married Mary Ann BIRCH who was born 18.03.1861 in Lincoln Work House, death March 1945 Grantham.
It is the line of Mary Ann that I am having trouble with. Her father was Azar BIRCH from her marriage lines b abt.1830 Nailstone, Leicester. He married Caroline SMITH b abt. 1840, Harmston, Lincs. On their marriage lines he is Azar BIRCH but he is Azar SMITH on his baptism. He was a Chimney Sweep as was his father Edward SMITH dec. and mother was Folentine on his baptism but on their other childrens she is Valentine.
The father of Caroline SMITH Azar's wife from their marriage certificate is Askley SMITH dec. and her mother is Hannah from her baptism entry.
Azar and Caroline had some 17 children that I have found
Azar & Caroline lived in the same street as Richard and Mary Ann = Vere Court, Grantham.
Azar was in prisoned many times for poaching and I have some entries from a book about Grantham.
I know this is rather confusing but I hope I am keeping you with me!!!!!
Anyway, Azar, I have been told is a Romany name 'Azariah' is this true???
I can find no information BMD or otherwise for Edward SMITH, or Folentine (Valentine).
Or Askley SMITH, who was also a Chimney sweep, and Hannah?? Although on Carolines baptism entry is states that they are 'Gipsy' in the Quality, Trade or Profession colum.
I am going quietly mad.....I think. Any suggestion or info would be gratefully received.
Suanne
-
Suanne
I've sent you a pm on this one.
BG :)
-
I've also noticed you have connections with the Dolbys.
The Smiths, Dolbys, Bowers, Places, Beards, Crowders and Prices all intermarried. The connection seems to be around gipsies. Certainly Dolbys, Beards, Bowers and Prices were all hawkers of some sort, mainly earthernware so its likely that they met up with gipsy families on their travels, but it's quite possible that some of them were gipsies too.
BG :)
-
Not sure if this is any help but I found it in my notes .........
Marriage listed in 1803
Leicestershire: - Register of Marriages, 1561-1837 Calendar of Wills Proved and of Administrations Granted in the Commissary Court of the Peculiar and Exempt Jurisdiction of Groby, 1580-1800. Marriages at Thurmaston, 1719 to 1837. Volume 4. County: Leicestershire Country: England
Samuel Birch & Elizabeth Riley 11 Apr 1803
*****************
Parents Edward Smith b 1795 & Valentine ? B 1795
-
Tiggi
Thank you for this. I'm confused or am simply misreading this one. If the marriage took place in 1803 I can't figure out the bit about the parents being born 1795??.
I've got Edward Smith & Valentine as the parents of :-
Azey 1831
Jeremiah 1835
Selina 1826
Riley 1823
Am I just having one of my senior moments???
BG
-
No sorry its me I should have turned the page of my notes I understand why I had this written down now :
I was looking up Riley Smith Birch
so think parents belong to him not the other couple
So sorry
1871 Census Little Gonerby and Manthorpe Lincolnshire
Riley Smith Birch 53 b 1818 Thorney, Cambridgeshire, England Hawker
William Birch 16 b 1855 Swaton, Lincolnshire, England
Charlotte Birch 15 b1856 Syston, Lincolnshire, England
Riley Birch b 1817 – died 1901 aged 84 Jan/Feb/Mar Grantham (1837-1933) County: Leicestershire, Lincolnshire Volume: 7a Page:
Riley Birch b 1873 Apr/May/June Grantham Leicestershire, Lincolnshire 7a 473
Riley Birch m 1846 Oct.Nov.Dec Grantham Leicestershire, Lincolnshire 14 693
Maria Smith
Also listed was a Emily Smith & Robert Hanwood
Riley Birch m 1895 Annie Elizabeth Birkett Jan/Feb/Mar Grantham Leicestershire, Lincolnshire 7a574
1891 Census Manthorpe Cum Little Gonerby Grantham Lincolnshire
Abram Birch 67 b 1824 Nelson, Leicestershire, England Chimmey Sweeper
Caroline 58 b 1833 Harmston, Lincolnshire, England
Charles T 28 b 1863 Grantham, Lincolnshire, England
Riley 18 b 1873 Grantham, Lincolnshire, England
Arthur 16 b 1875 Grantham, Lincolnshire, England
1901 Census Newark St Leonard Nottinghamshire
Riley Birch 27 b 1874 Grantham, Lincolnshire, England Maltser
Annie E 27 b 1874 Grantham, Lincolnshire, England
Kate E 5 b 1896 Grantham, Lincolnshire, England
Richard E 10mths b 1900 Newark, Nottinghamshire, England
Riley Senior had daughter Mary Ann ( b 1850) married John Henry Short b 1849 Gonerby Grantham Lincolnshire
Charlotte died 1877 Grantham
-
Thanks for this info everyone. I will be sending pm to tiggi and babygirl101 as have a coulpe of reports they may be interested in.
Suanne.
-
Thanks Tiggi for clarifying that one, I've been doing this all day and thought I was losing the plot lol.
I'd got the info for 1891 for Riley, but not the rest, so many thanks for that.
BG :)
-
I found some bits : Might help someone
Northants Baps ( all listed as travellers)
Henry Birch son Henry & Hannah 1791 20th Mar Syresham C/E Pershore Worcester
Isabel Birch daughter Henry & Hannah 1786 18th June Hellidon
Rebechah Birch daughter of Henry & Hannah 1798 7th Oct Alderton
***************
Marriages :
Edward Smith & Mary Cooper
1787 Waddington Lincolinshire
Edward Smith & Nanny Wood
1802 Upholland Lincolinshire
Christening
Harsley Smith 1758 ( unusual name?)
Burton on slater Lin
Edward & Sarah
Samson Smith 1768
Harmston Lin
Edward & Ann Smith
-
Tiggi
Many thanks for these, I'll take a look to see where they fit in.
I have to say though, that from the info Suanne has very kindly sent me about this family, I'll strongly deny, absolutely, any connection with them, lol, they appear to have been way, way beyond dreadful parents. If the child protection register existed Carolines children would have be on it before birth. Her parenting skills appear to have been non existent.
To say the reports are shocking would be putting it far too mildly, I can't even think of a suitable word for the parents behaviour. He seemed to be in trouble with the law all the time, she 'hit the bottle', he hit her and during all this she managed to accidently kill off several of her children, the list reads as 14 children born of which:-
1 accidently burnt to death
1accidently suffocated by Caroline whilst drunk
1 accidental death casued by a horse and carriage
1 more suffocation casued in the same way
1 died aged 1 year - no cause given - but I have my suspicions!!!
oh, and did I say 1 charged with stealing, the list goes on!!!
BG :)
-
I found some bits : Might help someone
Northants Baps ( all listed as travellers)
Henry Birch son Henry & Hannah 1791 20th Mar Syresham C/E Pershore Worcester
Isabel Birch daughter Henry & Hannah 1786 18th June Hellidon
Rebechah Birch daughter of Henry & Hannah 1798 7th Oct Alderton
On the IGI there is a baptism on 20th Nov 1803 at Cleeve Prior Worcestor for a female Valentine Birch to parents Henry and Hannah.
It would fit nicely for her to be Azar's mother, and for him to have taken her surname.
Jo.
-
Hmm, now I'm thoroughly confused as to how Azar got his name, I'm looking at the baptisms register for Nailstone and he's recorded as:-
March 21st 1830 - Azar, son of Edward and H or Folentine( it's quite difficult to make out which letter it is) SMITH, a traveller and licensed dealer in corks??, again hard to make it out. The baptism was performed by Joseph Taylor Curate of Ibstock. It looks as if it should be Valentine and it's been mistranscribed/heard.
The baptism you've given Jo, would be about the right time for it to be Azars mum, wouldn't it.
Caroline is also baptised as SMITH, so now I'm wondering why they using the name BIRCH on the census returns and for their numerous children??
BG ???
-
Caroline is also baptised as SMITH, so now I'm wondering why they using the name BIRCH on the census returns and for their numerous children??
Isn't it the case, though, that if the wife is more 'black-blooded' than the husband then they will use her name?
With that Elijah Boswell I've been looking at, (he of the four wives ::) ), the children he had by his first wife, who wasn't Romany, all used Boswell as a surname. He then 'eloped' with three Smith sisters, and their children all used Smith as a surname.
I saw the baptism for Valentine on the IGI earlier, but then with tiggi finding out that Henry and Hannah Birch were travellers it does look quite promising, doesn't it? I think there was also another baptism for a son Levi to the same couple.
Jo.
-
You're quite right Jo. You'd think given their unusual first names that they'd be easy to trace - no chance - it's like trying to hit a moving target lol
BG
-
Did you know that on the IGI there is a
Valentine SMITH baptised 21st February 1794 @ Allexton, Leicester which I believe is just outside Peterborough. Parents were William SMITH and Frances.
So that is a couple of Valentines baptised. Who do you think would be Azar's mother?
Suanne :-\
-
I'd lean towards Valentine Birch, simply because the Birch surname has to come from somewhere.
Jo. ???
-
here is another one :
Northants
Reservey SMITH daughter of John & Mary 1796 13-June Stowe IX Churches C of E gypsies, born 12th Jun under Judkins close hedge
-
Tiggi
I think you meant to put that posting under my other query re Resevoy lol, but thanks you for that one, Blimey, just what I need, another Resevoy to find lol lol. That one would have made her 65, but 1861 so not Williams wife, could possibly be Williams wifes mother??
BG :)
-
Who does Wisdom Birch born Dec qtr 1866 at Lincoln belong to? And is he Sunney Birch on the 1871, who then appears to die aged 5 in Mar qtr 1872, Grantham?
There is a birth for a Sunney Smith June qtr 1866 at E. Retford, but what would then seem to be a corresponding death in Sep qtr 1866 at Sleaford.
I’m just thinking with this Wisdom Birch born 1866, in the same qtr, and also at Lincoln, there is a death for a Wisdom Smith aged 50. Could Wisdom Birch have been named for Wisdom Smith? If so it might prove a link back to the Wisdom Smith family.
Does anyone know which Wisdom Smith died in 1866? Was it the one born c.1818 at Benefield, Northamptonshire, who married Hannah Newbury, as I have him dying before 1871?
Jo. :)
-
Jo
I'm fairly sure Wisdom Smith 1818 IS the one who died 1866. He's in the records as being aged 50 at death, Lincoln Vol 7a, page 259, so it matches.
Your suggestion, as much as I hate the idea, does sound feasible. I'm desperate not to find any closer links with this fmily than I've already got lol
BG :)
-
i have a huge birch tree around the areas of the west country mainly devon and hampshire.my birchs started in the 1700s as chimmney sweeps.some i know went north so would love it if you find any connections to west country travellers by the name of birch.cathayb
-
I've also noticed you have connections with the Dolbys.
The Smiths, Dolbys, Bowers, Places, Beards, Crowders and Prices all intermarried. The connection seems to be around gipsies. Certainly Dolbys, Beards, Bowers and Prices were all hawkers of some sort, mainly earthernware so its likely that they met up with gipsy families on their travels, but it's quite possible that some of them were gipsies too.
BG :)
hello i am searching my family and was pleased to find that you had mention the surname crowder .i recently found on cencus my distant grt grt grt grandparents were a george crowder and sarah surname unknown yet .anyways it said there occupations were hawkers .george and sarahs daughter elizabeth married a joseph cooper .do you know anymore about these familys also i have been told by relatives we are linked to the price and smith family but how i dont know . on josephs and elizabeths marriage cert it says the witnesses were henry smith and ann cooper .could we somehow be linked ? greatful for any help thanks kelly smithx
-
Hi Kelly,
I am linked to the Dolby,Smith,Birch,Price families. They were mainly Hawkers Chimney sweeps and earthernware dealers. From around the Lincolshire/Leicestershire/Nottinghamshire areas. Are you a member of Ancestry.co.uk? If so you could look at my family tree.
Let me know
Sue
-
Hi Kelly,
I am linked to the Dolby,Smith,Birch,Price families. They were mainly Hawkers Chimney sweeps and earthernware dealers. From around the Lincolshire/Leicestershire/Nottinghamshire areas. Are you a member of Ancestry.co.uk? If so you could look at my family tree.
Let me know
Sue
thanks for replying yes i am on ancestry my tree is rather empty at the moment and i am not a full memebr so i can tool at trees unfortunatley . i would love to know more about my family but every time i think ive found them i am thrown into i wrong direction its strange . i would love to look at youre tree if it were possible thanks again for replying my email is (*). thanks agian x kelly smith
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Not sure if this will help you or do as it has to me (got me confused) but i just received my great grandmothers birth certificate. Name : Lydia Newbury, Date of birth 18th February 1884, Daughter of Clark Newbury and Hannah Smith, the birth was registered on the 23rd February 1884 in Grantham, Lincolnshire. There is no signature but there is the mark of Caroline Birch (present at the birth, her address is 1 Vere Court, Little Gonerby). The confusing part is it states that Lydia was born at 2 Vere Court, Little Gonerby, USA. How could someone be born in the USA and then registered in Lincolnshire, U.K. 5 days later.
-
Hi Hostile17,
Well if it is any help Caroline Birch did live Vere Court, Little Gonerby and was married to Azey Birch. Caroline's had a daughter Hannah but she married George Rouse in 1888. I wonder if Caroline had a sister Hannah?? I have found the marriage of Clark Newbury but this is to Annie Smith, June 1/4 1883 I think it might be a mistake saying that Lydia was born USA. Do you have any other evidence to lead you to her being born USA?
-
Hi Hostile17
Clark Newbury parents were William Newbury and Abigail Smith ( a Romany woman )
I would say it was very likely Caroline Smith wife of Azey Birch/Smith was a relative and reason at the birth. Another reason women would not like a stranger to help with birthing.
Name: Abigal Smith
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 22 Mar 1829
Baptism Place: Bytham-Castle, Lincoln, England
Father: Wisdom Smith
Mother: Maria Smith
Name: Abigail Smith married William Newbury
Registration Year: 1849
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Grantham Lincolnshire