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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: ThompJack on Tuesday 17 February 09 11:39 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone please help unravel my mystery? What was Hodgsons Buildings in Monkwearmouth in the 1880s? I have a Jackson family residing there and have found a death certificate for a John Jackson, who I believe is the father, died on 1st November 1879 in the workhouse Hylton Road which I believe is over the river in Bishopswearmouth. The Sunderland cemetery & crematorium dept have found a John Jackson buried in Mere Knolls on 4th November 1879 recorded as died in The Poor House (belonging to Hodgsons Buildings). In various family documents John is recorded as a miner or riveter. If he was employed I am surprised at the mention of the poor house. Also, all the family birth certificates record Hodgsons Buildings as being in Monkwearmouth so how come the poor house is in Bishopswearmouth? I do not live locally so any local knowledge would be appreciated.
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Hi Thompjack
Welcome to RootsChat.
Hodgsons buildings I believe was a tenement type building, as far as I am aware part of it still stands, used as retail outlets.
Its post code is SR5 1BT. The workhouse was indeed on Hylton road, which as you know is in bishopwearmouth. I can only guess as to why he would be there, maybe he is to old to work or perhaps has some form of disability. If he was a pauper at death then I am a wee bit surprised he was buried at Mere Knolls, Bishopwearmouth cemetery being just the road.
Gary
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Thanks for the quick response.
I must admit this chap is a bit of a mystery. The details I have are a son John Jackson born 15/5/1880 father John deceased Holder up in shipyard (riveter's dolly man) mother Ann formerly Huggins of 13 Hodgsons Buildings. Previous son at the same address in 1876 father John was a coal miner mother Ann formerly Huggins. So that made me assume he changed jobs and also that he died somewhere between May 1880 & Sept 1879.
I have John Jackson a miner aged 22 marrying Ann Huggins in March 1873 which would make him about 29 in 1880.
The death I found was John Jackson aged 29 a miner died of paralysis 1/11/1879 in the workhouse Hylton Road Sunderland. I found this place on the old maps and it had a hospital attached. Like you I think there is something strange about these locations but I was intrigued by the implied link with Hodgsons Buildings & the poor house in the cemetery record.
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Hi Thompjack
I wonder If Ann was with him in the workhouse. Seems possible if they had a young child and was pregnant as well.
Gary
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prehous were is the bits that are letf of hodgsons buildings i live at fulwell just a stones throw away from monkwearmouth.
regards neil
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Hi Neil
Its at the sheepfolds just opposite the Stadium of Light. Try this post code in streetmap SR5 1BT.
Gary
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thanks gary if ive got time in the morning im going to have a quick look.I checked for monkwearmouth workhouse/poorhouse i found out the 1st was built beside the church then a new one was built up at portabella lane near to hartly woods glassworks.and as you said about bishopwearmouths this was/is behind sorly street later the cottage homes were added my mam used to say to me when i was a kid if i wasnt good thats were i would be going i never did.
regards neil
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Gary,
Ann was at 13 Hodgsons Buildings when son John was born in 1880 & still there in the 1881 census. I am wondering if he had an accident at work and went into the poor house hospital where he died.
If Neil finds any of the old building I would be most obliged if you could get a picture.
Dave
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no bother will do
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Nice one Neil ;D I looked at a google earth image and compared to an old map image it looks like two thirds of it was demolished. I can see were the roof line changes.
Gary
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Hi Dave,
I've just been looking through the postings. Have you thought of checking newspapers? As he might have died from the result of an accident, I think an inquest would have to be held, usually within 2 or 3 days of the death.
Regards,
Colin
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Hi Colin,
Thanks for the idea. Do you know of any online newspaper archives? Unfortunately I'm not local so I'm relying on the internet until we can organise a holiday in the NE.
I have checked the TWAS & Durham Mining Museum sites.
Regards
Dave
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Hi Dave,
As far as I know there are no newspapers online for the Sunderland area. TWAS might have microfilm copies, but the best bet might be a library.
Regards,
Colin
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the local studies centre which is in the city centre library which is in fawcett street should have something i have not got the time to look hopefully someone may be going there. regards neil
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Dave
I finally got on familysearch to check 1881 census, Its been a right pain tonight, it gives Ann as living at 13 and a half Hodgsons Buildings which suggests she is letting rooms to make ends meet. Do you have anything further back on this Jackson line?. The Mere Knolls burial really has me thinking. Perhaps there was a family plot there.
Gary
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even if there was a family plot i would think an undertaker would charge a fair bit to go over to mere knolls and did they have the means to pay.we all know what they charge now.
regards neil
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i was going to go round the sheepfolds today but the weather is naff so i will wait till its a bit brighter there are still 2 school buildings over that way now used by builders if the dates when they were built fits your dates i will get a photo of them to..
rgards neil
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Hi Gary,
Thanks for taking an interest. I had noticed the half and wondered what the significance was. You are probably right that they were sub letting for an income.
I have gone back a fair way as this is my wife's direct maternal line. Ann & John's son John born 1880 is her grandfather. The John Jackson married to Ann Huggins was born in Dawdon in 1851. In the 1861 census he is 10 years old and a miner(!!) living in Dawdon. He married Ann in Dalton-Le-Dale in 1873 and he was a miner in the Murton colliery. By 1876 when their son was born they had moved to Hodgson Buildings in Monkwearmouth and he was still a miner. The strange thing is on both his son John's birth certificate in 1880 he is shown as a Holder-Up and on his daughter Ann's marriage he is a Rivetter.
John's parents were Robert Jackson born 1829 in Easington & Hannah Roberts. They were married in 1849 in Easington he was then a pit man living at Fatten Pasture. In 1851 on John's birth cert he is a Horse Keeper at Murton Colliery.
Robert's parents were William Jackson born 1806 and Elizabeth born 1803. I believe William married a second time following Elizabeth's death in 1830. In the 1841 & 51 census he is married to Margaret. That is as far back as I have managed to get. It is frustrating that I cannot pin down that I have got the correct John who died in 1879.
Cheers
Dave
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Neil,
No worries, it sounds as though you are suffering the same grot weather that we have.
Many thanks for taking an interest.
Cheers
Dave
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at least the snow and ice has gone
regards neil
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The strange thing is on both his son John's birth certificate in 1880 he is shown as a Holder-Up and on his daughter Ann's marriage he is a Rivetter.
Cheers
Dave
To the best of my knowledge both the occupations refer to the shipbuilding industry.
Alan NZ
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Hi Dave
Thats interesting information. As for being a miner aged 10 that is more than likely. When they came to Hodgsons Buildings the Monkwearmouth Colliery was quite literally on the doorstep. I can only assume that ill health forced a career change hence the move to the shipyards, he would have been spoiled for choice on the Wear.
Gary
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Hi All
I was at St Benet'ts today so killed 2 birds with 1 stone and got a few photos of whats left of Hodgsons Buildings.
Gary
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wow good pics all the years ive lived in sunderland i did not have a clue about this building.
regards neil
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Hi Neil
I must have been past the place 100s of times. Its looking a bit sorry for itself. I wonder what it looked like in its full glory.
Gary
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gary the haywain or some other landscape would look a bit better on the side do you think lol
regards neil
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Yes Neil it would, its pretty desolate around there. But mind you when the pit was in full swing it must have like hell.
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Hi Gary,
Thanks for the picture. Sad to see it in this state as it must have been quite large in it's hey day. During my research I have come across quite a few people with ancestors in Hodgsons Buildings so it would have been quite big. At least the name plate looks good and has survived. In view of it's history I'm surprised there is nothing about it on the web. The name Hodgson seems quite common up there through the ages so I wonder who Hodgson was that it was named after.
Your comment about the 10 year old miner reminds me that when I first saw the census form I assumed it was a misprint for Minor. When I looked at the excellent Durham Mining Museum site I realized that 10 year olds were quite common. Terrible to read about some of the accidents involving young boys down the mines.
Cheers
Dave
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Hi Dave
It certainly does look sad. I would imagine the place was built to house the ever growing number of miners working at the pit. Its probably named after one of the owners of the pit. There was also a Stobbarts Buildings just up the street,long gone now. I also popped into Mere Knolls, I forgot how big the place is. Did you get a ward number by any chance?.
Gary
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Gary,
The only info I got for John's burial is :-
MERE - KNOLLS CEMETERY
JOHN JACKSON
PITMAN
AGED:- 29
DIED AT:- THE POOR HOUSE (BELONGING TO HODGSONS BUILDINGS)
BURIED ON:- 4TH NOVEMBER 1879
GRAVE NO:- 3017
Following on from what you suggested previously we are wondering if he was originally a miner then took the opportunity of a healthier job in the shipyards but then succumbed to a mining related illness which put him in hospital where he died and they assumed he was a miner due to the ailment. The informant on his death certificate is the Matron so it was not a family member who knew his background.
From what you said previously I assume that Mere Knolls was not a paupers graveyard.
I will take up Colin's suggestion and see if I can find any newspaper records. It must have been an individual death because there were no mention of any major disasters at that time. Oh for a crystal ball!!
Cheers
Dave
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Dave
Thanks for the info. As you probably know there was only 1 John Jackson registered death 1st Q 1879 and 2nd Q 1880 in Sunderland and the age fits. So I would say this your man. Mere Knolls did have paupers graves which is why I was surprised to find he was buried there given that he died in the poorhouse in bishopwearmouth. As Neil says the council would have buried him in the nearest cemetery, which is about half a mile from the poorhouse. So that is really strange. I think like Colin suggests a check through the media archives for the time in question for any report of an accident in the shipyards, apparently accidents happed on a daily basis in the shipyards. I will try and find out which ward the grave is and pop in and have a look next time I'm over to see the folks.
Gary
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Hi Dave,
I hope you have some luck with the newspapers. Sorry I can't help with a look-up.
There seems to be some doubt about his admittance to the poorhouse, so here's a couple of points to debate. Admissions were usually based on being homeless and unemployed. As his normal residence is given then he doesn't fall into that category. His family were at home so that's another pointer that he wasn't admitted as an inmate, as they would also have been admitted.
For what it's worth, I think he was admitted as a hospital patient and not as an inmate.
regards,
Colin
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Hi All
Just in case you have not come across this site http://www.wearsideonline.com/ Its worth a look. Lots of info past and present. I particulaly like the Victorian crime section. Theres a picture of the workhouse in there some where.
Gary
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Colin,
Thanks for your thoughts which back up what I'm beginning to conclude. Now that I've got some excellent pointers from you guys we will try to make the effort to come up this year to do some local "on the ground" research to nail this once and for all. This individual has caused us some concern as he is the one doubt in our research into my wifes line so it will be good to sort him out. The trouble has been, not being local, we don't know a lot of this background information so thanks everyone.
Regards
Dave
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Regarding ward numbers for graves in Mere Knolls Cemetery, the cmetery was opened by the Monkwearmouth & Southwick burial board and they only allocated grave numbers and not ward numbers. Ward numbers were introduced later when the cemetery came under the control of Sunderland Council. Establishing a ward number for the early graves may not be easy.
Wearsider.
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Hi Wearsider
Just off the phone to the council looks like a trip to town library is needed. I.m over that way today will call in an book a micro film reader for next week.
Gary
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Dave
I have a micro film reader booked for 2 hours on Monday. I have a few things to check out for myself, then I will check John Jacksons burial. If time permits I will check out the best newspaper archive the clerk recommends for possible accidents. Fingers crossed.
Gary
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Gary,
Thanks very much for all the trouble you are going to. Much appreciated.
Regards
Dave
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Your more than welcome dave. I have been meaning to get over for a while so I might as well fill the 2 hours up.
;D
Gary
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hi all again
gary have you been into the local studies centre yet i am looking forward to see if you find out anything.
regards neil
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Hi Neil
I got over to the family studies centre on Monday. I have to say it's some place I could spend day's in the place it's so full of history. I will certainly be making more visits. On the matter of John Jackson the only thing I could glean was that he was buried in common ground and had a service.
Gary
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its a canny place ive spent hours in there but i cant get there as much as i want my wife is disabled and i have to help her a lot but she reckons when the weathers better we both of to bishopwearmouth and mearknolls grave spotting P.S. Gary were are you from
regards neil
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Neil
Born & bred in the East End, in Hartley Street. Moved to Seaburn when my folks had a few bob. In Gateshead now for my sins :o
Gary
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hi your mam and dad must have worked hard to move to seaburn just look at the price of a house theve always been expencesive
neil
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Hi sorry to bother you.I have just found this forum which I'm exited about.My family lived in Hodgsons Buildings,we left in 1954 when my grandfather died.He worked for the railway as a porter.His name was Blakey.I've been trying to find out if there was any photos of the old tenement buildings.I would be greatful if you can help i,'v been searching for ages with no success....... thank you for reading hope you can help
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Probably he was a miner then a riveter in the shipyards. Older people or terminally ill people were in the workhouse or poor house prior to death regardless of whether they were gainfully employed prior to moving to the poorhouse. Of course after Victorian times the workhouses received other names. I remember visiting my grandmother in the Chester-le-Street Workhouse. It was not called that then but it was the same buildings. Likewise the workhouse in Lanchester changed its name. Looking through the civil cemetery in nearby Hare Law, for records of burials in the 1940's the place of death is sometimes given as Newbiggin Road and the previous abode is given too. Newbiggin Road is code for the old workhouse in Lanchester.
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Hi everyone, my name is Brian and I'm new to this forum. I'm interested in Hodgsons Buildings as my wife lived there in the early 1950s and some of her siblings were born there. I'm obviously interested in Dot16's comments as she must have lived there at the same time.
If anyone involved in this thread back in 2009 is still here the site was on a corner between the Monkwearmouth to Newcastle railway line, Monkwearmouth goods yard and the Monkwearmouth Colliery site which is now home to Sunderland AFC. I'm still looking for photographs of the original buildings. The part that remains is now the home of a café and the office of A Love Supreme, a Sunderland AFC fan magazine.
One early poster on this thread said his family lived in no. 13. That's the same house my wife lived in but she also lived in no. 16
There is an old school building across the road which may have been the poor house referred to by earlier posters. I'll try and find more info on that
Brian
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Hi Brian,
I was the originator of this post about Hodgsons Buildings. My wife's grandfather was born in 13˝ (I believe they may have sublet rooms hence the half). Someone sent me a photo of the remains which as you point out is a café. I can send you a copy but it sounds as though you are local so not interested in a modern pic. If you do un-earth a picture of the original buildings we would be most interested. Very interesting that they were still inhabited in the 1950's. Grandpa Jackson was born there in 1880 just 5 months after his father died in the poorhouse attached to Hodgsons Buildings.
You mention you are new to this forum, well you will find a very helpful bunch of guys who will take an interest. Good luck with your research.
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Hi ThompJack
I found a website called Britain From Above but I'm not clever enough to add links but if you go to the site and search for Wearmouth Colliery there are a few photos, taken in the 1920s, that include Hodgsons Buildings. I've marked Hodgsons Buildings on a couple of the photographs. The large white house visible in the pictures is the building that is still there. The other houses have all gone.
One side of the houses faced onto Wreath Quay Road (which is still there but now called Millenium Way) This now runs over the railway line and past the south end of The Stadium of Light. The other side overlooked the north end of Monwearmouth Goods Yard while my wife's old house, number 16, was in the corner between Wreath Quay Road and the railway line.
Let me know if you find the pictures
regards
Brian
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Hi Brian,
Brilliant!
I am familiar with the Britain From Above web site as I use it frequently. Unfortunately, not being a native of the NE I was unable to identify any landmarks in the area. Thanks very much, it has enabled me to identify the correct position on the map. In fact I've found the name marked on the 1919 OS map of the area. I have attached the 1919 map (I hope) of the area with Hodgson's Buildings shown.
I have also found the 1895 map but although Hodgson's is marked it isn't as clear.
Regards
Dave (ThompJack
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My grandfather, Charles William Saunders, was born in 1873 in 8 Hodgson's Buildings. I would be interested to know if anyone knows how the buildings were numbered. For instance, what number did the only existing building (the cafe) have?
I've attached an 1860 map overlain (roughly) onto modern Google Earth. It seems that Hodgson's Buildings was then on both sides of the street parallel to Edmonson's Street. It had a 'B.H.' at one end (is this 'bath house'?), with a Primitive Methodist Chapel next door to that.
AIGR (all information gratefully received)
John
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Hi John,
I should be able to help you but I'm a bit busy at the moment. I will get back to you.
My wife lived in no. 13 and no. 16 in the 50's and has a rough idea of the numbering. Hodgson's Buildings did not reach as far south as Edmondson's Street. It was only 2 rows of houses surrounding a yard on the south side of Wreath Quay Road, behind the one existing building which we believe was no. 1 and was much larger then the other houses. This house was for many years a shop.
will get back as promised, regards
Brian
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Dear Brian
Thank you so much!
The attached oblique aerial shot from 1928 shows that the southern part of Hodgson's Buildings had already been demolished by then.
You're obviously a Sunderland man, so do you have any idea where Westcott Terrace was? My grandmother, Mary Ellen Miller, was living there at the time of her marriage to Charles William Saunders (1902). It was evidently demolished early too, as there is no record of it on the 1956 street index.
AIGR
John
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Hi John
I googled Westcott Terrace Sunderland and found the following, which is amazing actually as I worked for Sunderland Public Works Department in the mid to late 60's as a clerk on building sites and one of my small sites was on the west side of Brandling Street and I had never heard of Westcott Terrace. Brandling Street is still there, near the site of Roker Park so you should be able to find it on Google earth.
"Westcott Terrace was on the east side of Brandling Street, between
Roker Baths Road and Cardwell Street. It will not be marked on a map as
it was part of Brandling Street. It was common in Sunderland for a row
of houses on a main road to be called a terrace and given a separate
name, probably after the builder of the houses."
On the subject of Hodgsons Buildings I'm still not sure how many houses there were now. If as you say they strecthed down towards Edmondsons Street I wasn't aware of that, I've never seen houses numbers in any census over 16 or 18 which were all still there when my wife lived there.
Anyway i've just come in from the pub so I'll have another look at all this later
regards
Brian
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Dear Brian
Thanks for the advice for Westcott Terrace. In fact I've managed to find it on the 1914 map given on http://www.durham-images.org. It's the furthest northeast part of Brandling Street, and numbers downwards from 25 Westcott Terrace going south from the Givens Street intersection. And it's on Google Earth, so I can see where my grandmother lived at the time of her wedding.
Thanks again!
mfG
John