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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Somerset => England => Somerset Lookup Requests => Topic started by: LockeLad on Tuesday 17 February 09 10:54 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to trace the tragedy which split up the family of Henry Penny of West Camel, Somerset (1853- ) and Jessie Rowland of Upottery,Devon (1859-1936) who lived in the Yeovil area. The children were Lucy Ann Penny (1882-1955), (Henry Penny 1884-), Edwin 'Ted' John Penny (1885, killed WW1), Albert Rumsey Penny (1886-) who emigrated to Canada, Adelina Bessie Penny (1889-1926) married Arthur Oliver Tucker, Silas W. Penny (1880 killed WW1), Ernest F. Penny (1892, killed WW1), Alice Clara Penny (1895- ) married Will Craig, Reginald Penny (1898, killed WW1), Frank Penny (1899- ) gassed in WW1. Family correspondence indicates that Frank, Reg and Clara were separated from the other children when small but the reason was not stated. A later tragedy was that four of the seven brothers were killed in WW1. Letters refer to a Mary (White?) who may be a close relative or foster mother. Lucy Ann Penny (my ancestor) married George Lock/Locke and founded the Kingweston Lockes. Any information or corrections gratefully received. ???
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Hello and welcome!
Before we start hunting around, can you confirm what you already have - have you found the family in any censuses? The parents marriage? Children's birth registrations?
Dont want to duplicate effort and do what has already ben done!
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Hi and a warm welcome :)
The family was intact in 1901: RG13/2303/146/2
Have you looked for them in 1911?
Anna
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At least some of the children were registered as PENNEY:
Adelina Bessie PENNEY Sep 1888 Yeovil 5c 441
Silas Walter PENNEY Sep 1890 Yeovil 5c 431
Ernest Fred PENNEY Sep 1892 Yeovil 5c 413
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Thank you. I have searched exhaustively census returns, BMD records, family contacts etc to build up or confirm what is known about these siblings. It was a jigsaw puzzle. The enigma of the tradgedy remains and to where the children were dispersed. Family letters only provide clues but not the underlying story.
In reply to Anna, yes, indeed the family was intact in 1901 at Blackford, Wincanton but not in 1911. (Note Evelina B. in 1901 appears to be Bessie in 1891 and Adelina Bessie in BMD!)
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In reply to Anna, yes, indeed the family was intact in 1901 at Blackford, Wincanton but not in 1911.
OK then - who is missing in 1911? Are both parents still around and if so which children do they have with them?
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I must say, I'm struggling to find any of the five WW1 casualties on www.cwgc.org or other relevant WW1 databases. Might the family have changed its surname? (Or have you already found military records for them?)
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Thanks for reminder that Penny may be same family as Penny.
I didn't pay to view the 1911 census but used combinations of various family member names to decide between possibilities. No family group was found. Two examples of returns but not with clear evidence of siblings:
HOUSEHOLD, PENNY HENRY Male dob1852 age59 Yeovil, Somersetshire
HOUSEHOLD, PENNY JESSIE F approx dob 1863 age48 Chelsea, London
A Henry Penny died Yeovil district Oct-Dec quarter of 1905 vol 5c page 269. So maybe this large family split up then if this was Dad. Some of the lads may have gone into the army and could be some seen listed as MILITARY. But the mystery still remains!
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In summary I located, as possibilities:
a) Name: Edwin Penny Birth Place: Glastonbury, Som. Residence: Devizes, Wilts Death Date: 4 May 1915 Enlistment Location: Yeovil, Som. Rank: Private Regiment: Dorsetshire Regiment Battalion: 1st Battalion. Number: 7338 Type of Casualty: Killed in action Theater of War: Aldershot
b) Ernest Reginald Penny Birth Place: Yeovil Residence: Pontypridd Death Date: 23 Apr 1917 Enlistment Location: Treforest, Glam. Rank: A/Corporal Regiment: Devonshire Regiment Battalion: 1st Battalion. Number: 9933 Type of Casualty: Killed in action Theater of War: Aldershot
1911 census MILITARY establ. PENNY, ERNEST dob 1890 age21 Isle of Wight, Hampshire
but nothing for Silas Walter Penny or Reginald or Frank (gassed)
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I now have confirmation that Henry Penny died 11 Dec 1905 at Yeovil hospital aged 51 years leaving Jessie Penny (of 30 South Street, Yeovil) widowed. The youngest four children would have been about 6, 7, 10 and 12 years old. As a farm labourer, and probably in a tied cottage, the situation would have been dire. Although at least two of the family later lived in Canada there is no evidence (yet) of any of them being shipped out there 'for a better life'. On the other hand the youngest members and their mother cannot readily be found in the UK 1911 census. Adoption?
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Please can someone check on Ancestry for the military service, death or discharge wounded for a Reginald Penny and a Reginald Albert Penny, birth dates 1898, of Yeovil, Somerset.
Also Albert Rumsey Penny or Albert Ramsden Penny, birth dates 1886, of Yeovil, Somerset? It appears that he returned to the UK to sign up for WW2 and survived the war. Can anyone locate him re-entering the UK?
We now know that Edwin John Penny emigrated to Canada in 1908 and married Annie Maria Tuplin, 24 May 1910, in Canada. It appears that he also returned to the UK to sign up for WW2. Killed: 4 May 1915. Can anyone locate him re-entering the UK?
Thanks,
LockeLad
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More research has established the identity of Mary White who is mentioned in the family correspondence of 1955. She appeared sometimes to be a sister to the Penny children but is never listed among them in census returns. Her history is as follows:
Mary Jane Rowland, born 17 March 1880 Yeovil district, subdistrict Ilchester at Bridgehampton, apparently illegitimate daughter of Jessie Rowland, born Upottery, Devon (1859-1936). No father's name is given on her birth certificate and she keeps the name Rowland until her marriage to James White. At time of Mary's marriage to James White (1873- of Knole, Somerset) in Dorchester in 1902 (Dorchester Mar 1902, 5a 579) she gave her name as Mary Jane A. Rowland.
She lived with her grandparents until of age rather than live with her mother who marries a year or so after Mary's birth. Her mother, Jessie Rowland, marries Henry Penny (1853-1905) in abt July 1881 (Sept 1881, Yeovil 5c 637).
The 1911 census shows Mary living in Weymouth with her husband and two children: Fred White born 1906 in Avon, Hants. and Ivy May White born 1903 in Rampisham, Dorset. Mary was still living in 1955 (family knowledge).
So what is Mary's connection with the Penny family siblings described in this lookup request? She is actually a half-sister to them. Two pieces of evidence identify her as being regarded as 'sister' to the Penny siblings. The newspaper obituary notice of Lucy Ann Penny (1882-1955) describes Mary as her 'sister'. Also the 1911 census for Mary and James White in Weymouth shows Ernest Penny (1892-WW1) living at that the same address and is described as 'wife's brother'.
Mary Rowland as a child/young woman;
1881 census: living with mother Jessie Rowland at the home of Jessie's parents (John & Elizabeth Rowland) in Downhead, West Camel, age 6 months?
1891 census: living with grandparents, age 11, John & Elizabeth Rowland at Bridgehampton. Jessie now married to Henry Penny, living at Church Hill, Corton Denham.
1901 census: living with grandparents, age 20, John & Elizabeth Rowland at Bridgehampton. James White, her husband shortly to be, listed as a boarder (age 27, a carter), born Long Sutton (close to Knole).
QED
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I am now interested in the youngest member of the Penny family, namely Frank Penny, born 1899. A family letter written by him in 1955, of which I have a copy, reveals some interesting facts. He confirms that he got a gas attack in WW1. He then worked in industry, at one time in Cardiff. He then moved to London and notes that he has lived there for thirty years. His mother, Jessie Penny (nee Rowland) lived with him for some of that time, dying in 1936. He gives his address as 25 Allfarthing Lane, Wandsworth, London, SW18.
I was unable to find any record for Frank in the 1911 census for England and Wales although it is unlikely that he was living elsewhere then. In his letter of 1955, he mentions that he lost 'the wife' in 1942 but fails to give her name!
Any chance that someone can identify who she is? Perhaps help someone to fill a space in a family tree.
Thank you!
LockeLad
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Do you know when Frank Penny died? Could this be him?
Frank Penny b 11 Oct 1899 death registered Oct 1969 (Dec qtr 1969) age 70 Kensington RD
This Frank's wife was called Rose.
Then a death registration for Rose:
Rose M Penny died aged 35 Dec qtr 1941 Kensington RD
Not 1942 but last quarter of 1941, which is very close.
Queenie :)
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Thank you. This is a promising lead!
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Do you know when Frank Penny died? Could this be him?
Frank Penny b 11 Oct 1899 death registered Oct 1969 (Dec qtr 1969) age 70 Kensington RD
This Frank's wife was called Rose.
Then a death registration for Rose:
Rose M Penny died aged 35 Dec qtr 1941 Kensington RD
Not 1942 but last quarter of 1941, which is very close.
For info.
London Electoral Register Year 1939
Address 25 Queensdale Road, Kensington
Frank & Rose May PENNY
also at same address
Stewart Victor ROWLEY & Rosina Elsie ROWLEY (Rosina’s maiden name COX)
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Can trace Frank and Rose back together on electoral regs to 1931/32, @ 6 Rockley Road Hackney
and in 1935/6 25 Queensdale Road
John
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His mother, Jessie Penny (nee Rowland) lived with him for some of that time, dying in 1936. He gives his address as 25 Allfarthing Lane, Wandsworth, London, SW18.
London Electoral Register
Frank Penny is at that address years 1950 - 1958 there are others but none with surname Penny
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His mother, Jessie Penny (nee Rowland) lived with him for some of that time, dying in 1936. He gives his address as 25 Allfarthing Lane, Wandsworth, London, SW18.
London Electoral Register
Frank Penny is at that address years 1950 - 1958 there are others but none with surname Penny
Can I ask what evidence there is for the death in 1936 of Jessie Penny please. Did she die with a different surname.
John
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I now have confirmation that Henry Penny died 11 Dec 1905 at Yeovil hospital aged 51 years leaving Jessie Penny (of 30 South Street, Yeovil) widowed.
The youngest four children would have been about 6, 7, 10 and 12 years old. As a farm labourer, and probably in a tied cottage, the situation would have been dire. Although at least two of the family later lived in Canada there is no evidence (yet) of any of them being shipped out there 'for a better life'.
On the other hand the youngest members and their mother cannot readily be found in the UK 1911 census. Adoption?
Could Jessie Penny have remarried?
Penny Jessie
Williams Thomas
Sep 1912 Pontypridd 11a 1251
And is this Jessie living in Wales?
1911c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW6T-1K8
Thomas Williams Head 56 Pontypridd
Jessie Williams Wife 46, Devonshire
Reginald Penny Son 15 Yeovil , Somersetshire
Is this son Edwin?
Edwin Penny
Record Type: Card
Service Number: 7338
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description: Other Ranks Died Penn W-Perchard S
Reference Number: DP.P.35 8/D/5481 5/D/3749
Next of Kin:
Jessie Williams Mother Residence Place: Tonyrefail
This image is on Fold3 sorry I don’t have a subscription to view
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You beat me to it again Ladyhawk :(
John
added on the 1931/32 electoral registers living with Frank and Rose is a Jessie Williams.
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Thanks for your replies. From my own records:
Jessie Penny did marry a Thomas Williams of Pontypridd and Reginald Penny is a son from her first marriage.
Edwin Penny, another of her sons, died as stated in WW1.
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A number of years ago, when I searched for Frank Penny in the 1911 census, I couldn't find him. Please can you find him and also in 1921? Probably in Wales or the West Country.
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Do not have worldwide membership of Ancestry, but this Frank Penny is born c1899
1921 Census of Canada
1920s
View
Record information.
Name
Frank Penny
Other
given name surname
Birth
location
Arrival
year
Residence
dd mm 1921 city, Parry Sound, Ontario, Canada
John
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Frank's letter of 9/11/1955 to his sister Lucy Locke nee Penny, my grandmother, makes no mention of being in Canada. In view of his poor heath after the war it seems unlikely.
Other related Penny family members did emigrate to Canada although I have no record of a Frank Penny.
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Do not have worldwide membership of Ancestry, but this Frank Penny is born c1899
1921 Census of Canada
1920s
View
Record information.
Name
Frank Penny
Other
given name surname
Birth
location
Arrival
year
Residence
dd mm 1921 city, Parry Sound, Ontario, Canada
The above Frank Penny age 24 is with his brothers John & Angelo all born Italy
Residence 1 Jun 1921 McDougal (incorperated), Parry Sound, Ontario, Canada
Frank Penny pretty elusive on 1911c ???
Strange that as he was the youngest child he's not with his mother Jessie & brother Reginald in Wales :-\
I found this Frank as an inmate and wondered if his surname had been mistranscribed but unfortunately not original reads PEARCE
Frank Pearce age 12 Kilmersdon, Somersetshire, inmate
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7R2-4LC
Has a marriage entry for Frank Penny to a Rose May ? been located? I've not found one
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Here is some supporting evidence about the Penny family sent to me some years ago by Dr. Barnado's about Alma Clara Penny and her siblings. It establishes that Frank was not sent by them to Canada as a boy.
Alma was admitted to Barnardo's care on 29th August 1906. Her date of birth is shown as 3rd August 1895 at Chilton Cantelo, Somerset. Her father is not named but is said to have died on 6th December 1905. Her mother is named as Jenny (sic) Penny, aged 44, and living at 160 Penarth Road, Cardiff. It is stated her parents married on 24th July 1881 at West Camel, Somerset.
Her brothers are named as Henry, aged 22, collier in Rhondda Valley; Edwin, aged 21, a soldier but later living in Canada; Albert, aged 19, soldier; Silas, aged 16, dairyman's assistant in Weymouth; Ernest, aged 15, farm lad in Dorset; Reginald, aged 9; and Frank, aged 6; both with mother.
Her sisters are named as Mary White, aged 26, living in Yeovil; Lucy Locke, aged 23, living in Martock, Somerset.
Her maternal grandfather is named as John Rowland, aged 73, living with maternal aunt, Sarah Penny.
Alma was emigrated to Canada on 21st February 1907 aboard the SS Dominion and arrived in Portland on 5th March.
I can confirm that Reginald and Frank were NOT admitted to Barnardo's care.
I have failed, as yet, to locate a marriage date for Frank Penny to his wife Rose May. Or to discover her maiden name.