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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: MarkyP on Sunday 15 February 09 21:01 GMT (UK)
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Just watching Larkrise to Candleford with my daughter when the Postmistress pulled out a Birth Certificate for her Father to say that he was 70! For those of you who don't watch this program, it's set in Victorian times so this of course would have been impossible. Or is it, did they do birth certificates before 1837?
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It is a fictional TV programme ;D There were no such things as birth certificates before July 1837. However he could have had a baptism certificate :)
Stan
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I've not heard of a baptism certificate. When and where did such things exist? :o
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You're not the only one asking this question. ;)
http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/History/Question708876.html
When IS Larkrise to Candleford set? I can't find anything more specific than "late 1800's" or "19th century".
Did anyone see the Christmas programme about the "ghost" girl? Her grave marker said 1818. It was mentioned during the progarmme that this girl drowned X number of years ago (but I can't remember HOW many :-\). Can anyone remember? From this we can work out when the series is set.
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Flora Thompson, who wrote the book, was born in 1876 so given that it is based on her family life, it is set around 1890 - 1900. She was born Flora Timms and she began her work in the post office at "Candleford" in 1891.
Jen
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Some of these TV programmes are full of anachronisms. Foyle's War is a persistent offender. You imagine they're written and directed by people far too young to understand the period in which they're set.
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The date they carved on the clock stone panels last week was 1895. I had a baptism cert for my first child. I LOVE Larkrise to Candleford ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I've not heard of a baptism certificate. When and where did such things exist? :o
Hi Mark,
I have Baptism, Confirmatiom, & Communion Certificates back to my Gt-Gt grandma in the 1840s, one for my Grandad Born in 1904 - Grandad has a wonderful Certificate listing his birth date, his Baptism date, the date he was "Presented" to the church, his Confirmation date, Communion Date, and Marriage date (Gold dust for me!) .................
I also have my own from the 1960's, my sister & Brothers from the 1970's & 1980s and my nephew has one from last year.............
(Luckily for me my family are all born hoarders and dont throw much 'official' stuff away!)
They both CofE & Methodist church ones, I think its down to the individual churches to supply them and the parents to keep them updated after that.
Gaille
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I love it too.
But as I'm in Australia and it's not shown here I didn't see last week's episode with the date carved on the clock (I have to rely on other methods to get my fix of BBC series ;D and so far I've only seen a couple of episodes from the series currently being shown in the UK).
I didn't reaslise the stories were based on Flora Thompson's life, thanks Jen. I will investigate further.
So that means that Dorcas COULD have had her father's birth certificate .... I must say I thought the series was set earlier than 1895 ....
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Going by the sleeving that "Laura" and "Dorcas"had on their blouse's in tonights episode it would appear to have been set between 1889 and 1893 when the kick up at the shoulder seam was in fashion however according to Bob Dutton the program's art director the dress shop run by the Pratt sister's is made up to look like one in 1895 which would fit in with their clothing as the Pratt sister's are seen to be wearing gigot sleeving in some of the episodes. Flora Thompson (nee Timms) who wrote Lark Rise to Candleford based the character "Laura Timmins" on her self. If you stayed with Flora's own date of birth as being a starting point she was born in 1876 and left school at 14 to take up her position in the post office this would make it 1890 which sits squarely with the series.
old rowley
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Hi everyone,
I came across two baptism certificates (both handwritten) for two of my husband's ancestors, whilst searching through documents at the Nottinghamshire Archives Office.
I know one of them, Benjamin Richards, was the toll collector near Trent Bridge (he also was licensee of the Nottingham Arms, Trent Bridge). He was working as toll collector in the 1820s, up to mid 1830s. Benjamin was born in 1783, and died in 1836.
The other certificate, for Joseph Richards, I believe may have come from the West Bridgford Methodist Church - where he might have been a trustee. Joseph was born in 1818 and died in 1888.
Incidentally, both were baptised at the High Pavement Chapel in Nottingham (non-conformist).
I think they were probably required by the Corporation and the Methodist Church, to confirm their age and identity, etc. (a bit like the Civil Service evidence of age certificates).
I've scanned a copy of Benjamin's for you to see.
Hope this helps.
Paulene :)
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I love it too.
So that means that Dorcas COULD have had her father's birth certificate .... I must say I thought the series was set earlier than 1895 ....
If he was 70 the earliest he could have a birth certificate was 1907, that is born after June 1837. When the Old Age Pension was introduced on the 1st Jan. 1909, for those aged 70 and over, it was realised that some difficulty in determining the age of the claimant would be found in many cases, and one of the documents acceptable was a certificate of baptism.
Stan
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Ruskie
"Candleford" is on the ABC on Sunday nights in Oz. Programme starts 8.30pm
wini
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When the old age pension was first paid in 1909 to those aged 70 or older a lot of people had to obtain a certificate of baptism to prove that they were over 70. This included not only those born before registration in 1837 but also those whose birth was not registered.
Those who belonged to the Baptist Denomination of the church had particular difficulty because they were not baptised until they were teenagers.
My own baptism certificate contains no indication that I was not baptised until the age of sixteen.
Returning to the programme one could also question why he was having to retire at the age of 70. At that time the criterium was usually whether a person was fit enough to continue in his job, which he clearly was.
David
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This is interesting, I guess I've got a Baptism certificate for my daughter then, but I never thought that I might be able to get them pre-1837! Strangely enough the main crux of my research are my Jerome descendants who were Baptists, is it likely that they would have had Baptism Certificates? Also are they likely to be personal things that were just for the parents or would there have been records of such things?
Back to the program, Dorcas definitely said Birth Certificate (I think :)) for her father, who was born 70 years previously. Given when it is said the program is set that would put it in the mid 1820s!
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This is interesting, I guess I've got a Baptism certificate for my daughter then, but I never thought that I might be able to get them pre-1837! Strangely enough the main crux of my research are my Jerome descendants who were Baptists, is it likely that they would have had Baptism Certificates? Also are they likely to be personal things that were just for the parents or would there have been records of such things?
You will be unlikely to be able to get a baptism certificate in the way that you can obtain a birth certificate. There is a very slight chance that one which was obtained in the past has been preserved in a family's archives. It would have been no more than a written confirmation of an entry in the church register produced to show date or place of birth.
David
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When the old age pension was first paid in 1909 to those aged 70 or older a lot of people had to obtain a certificate of baptism to prove that they were over 70. This included not only those born before registration in 1837 but also those whose birth was not registered.
David
As I posted before, When the Old Age Pension was introduced on the 1st Jan. 1909, for those aged 70 and over, it was realised that some difficulty in determining the age of the claimant would be found in many cases, and one of the documents acceptable was a certificate of baptism. Other documents that were allowed to be regarded were a certificate of service in any of the Forces of the Crown, certificate of membership of any friendly or provident society or trade union, and certificate of marriage. Any other evidence which appeared sufficient for the purpose could also be accepted. Documentary evidence of age had to be provided at the claimant's own expense, but in special cases in England and Wales, where the claimant was not in a position to produce a certificate of birth, but could give the year and place of his/her birth the pension officer could apply direct to the Registrar General for the information. In Scotland where certificates of birth were not available, the Old Parochial Registers of births and baptisms in the custody of the Registrar General in Edinburgh could be searched for the information where necessary. In Ireland where certificates of birth were not available the Baptismal Registers could probably afford the necessary evidence of age and it was expected that claimants should have no difficulty in obtaining certificates.
Stan
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A circular issued at the time by the Local Government Board stated;
Regard may be had not only to strictly legal evidence such as would be admissible in a Court of Law, but to any such evidence as is in the opinion of the committee sufficient for the purpose, and is the best information which it is reasonably possible to obtain. The regulations were that the claimant must have attained the age of 70, must have been a British subject for at least 20 years, and have resided in the United Kingdom, and their yearly means not exceed £31. 10 shillings.
Stan
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An interesting discussion - thanks for the explaination Stan.
(Wini - it is Cranford that is on the ABC on Sunday night ;))
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Still a little off-topic but I seem to remember reading that one good source of Irish data is through census returns that were submitted as evidence of age around this time.
Paul
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In the instructions to the Inland Revenue officers, the treasury stated that in Ireland relieving officers, rate collectors, and clerks of unions may also be in a position to give assistance on questions of age and means, and available census records may be made use of.
Stan
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If you think this programme is incorrect, don't watch The Tudors! I started watching it and got very confused. Apparently an American company got the rights to make it (so they're 1 series ahead of the UK). But more to the point, they decided that Henry VIII's sister should marry someone else. Thus meaning Mary Queen of Scots cannot exist! Needless to say, I stopped watching it after that.
Andrew
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Just to throw another idea into the discussion, the Society of Friends issued their own birth certificates way before 1837, so it may have been one of those!
I've seen Quaker birth certificates dated back to 1776 (see this post: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,168291.msg796958.html#msg796958) so they did exist unofficially. Don't know how much further back they went though!
Glen
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I have a Baptism Certificate for my Dad, written the month before he married (when he was 24).
It gives-
Alleged date of birth
When baptised
Child's Christian name
Parent's Names
Abode
Father's Occ
God Parents' names (blank)
Vicar's name
Date of issue
Clerk's name
(Printed by JB Shears and Sons, 64 Sydney Street, Chelsea SW3)
Also one for my Mum, again issued the month before marriage. This was a Catholic one from another county. It was printed by MH Gill and Son Ltd, Dublin.
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Non-conformists also issued birth certificates before 1837, I have one from 1826 issued by Dr William's Library which I understand used to register births for non-conformists in a bid to make them as "official" as the parish registers.
However - the one I have is small and square - the one in Lark Rise to Candleford definitely looked the conventional long shape. It would be interesting to see what is in Flora Thompson's original book, since she presumably remembered what had happened at the time! Incidentally Flora worked in the village post office from 1891 to 1897 -
http://www.visitnorthoxfordshire.com/site/areas-to-visit/towns-and-villages/fringford?gclid=CPeRvKmo7JgCFQ00Qwod7U2L1Q
Veron
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I recommend reading of 'My Ancestors were English Presbyterian/Unitarians' by Alan Ruston. Published by SOG: in it is an explaination of why Protestant Dissenters registered their childrens births at Dr Williams's Library.
The copy I have of a form used to register a birth with Dr Williams's Library asks for the following details (in order!): (this particular form was completed in 1837 for a birth in 1803)
Name of Child
Daughter of (father's name)
Father's address
Wife's name
Father of Wife
Wife's father's address
Child born at the house of...
address
date of birth
The signatures or marks of two people present at the birth
My 3xgrandfather's birth in 1836 was registered at the local Baptist Meeting House along with the names of the Midwife & Nurse present at the birth.
Hephzibah
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Whoops, forgot to mention, in the above book it states that the register at Dr Williams's Library was started in 1742. When Civil Registration commenced in 1837 the register consisted of nearly 49,000 birth entries, which was handed over to the Register General. They are now in the National Archives.
A sleepy Hephzibah!
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The 'Dr Williams' registers, along with those of the Wesleyan Metropolitan Registry of Births and the rest of the Non-parochial register collection at TNA are online at BMDregisters.co.uk, and as one of the subscription packages at TheGenealogist.co.uk
They have been digitised and indexed, and the rest of the collection includes Quaker records, and the notorious Fleet registers as well as various nonconformist registers including some of the large London burial grounds such as Bunhill Fields.
Mean_genie