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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: flogged on Saturday 14 February 09 13:08 GMT (UK)
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Forgive my ignorance, have often seen it written but no one has explain what it means "Of that Ilk" does it mean of the same town/village/parish?
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Hi
Ilk means same but in the usual use of the word in 'of that ilk' it means of the same family
Gadget
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_that_ilk
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Of+that+ilk
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/english/data/d0082233.htm
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Thankyou Gadget, after 2 yrs, finally an answer.
one more if you might know,
In old english writting we see the letter "f" used in place of the "s" with internal lettering of a word, do you know the reason behind that?
flogged.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s
'google' is a wonderful tool ;D ;D ;D
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Agree but disagree Gadget.
Of that ilk is much more general (now).
It is / was used to refer to anything / anyone that was similar.
For example, folk that 'come from' Scotland will be referred to as "of that ilk"
Travellers will be described as "of that ilk"
etc
Not necessarily from the one family, although, I agree with your trad explanation.
Dave
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Hi Dave :)
Don't see that it is a disagreement!
I said that Ilk meant same but that in the phrase 'of that ilk' it tends to usually mean 'of the same family'
Gadget
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Yes google is a wonderful tool, but then one does not get to meet helpful people then, does one!
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Dave, Gadget, shall we agree that it means;
we are talking of that there and this here is the same as that, yes. ;)
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Hi flogged
This is a fun site:
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/
:D
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Sorry Gadget, I don't go into sites unless I am comfortable in what is in there, do explain.
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It's an online dictionary of the Scots language - don't worry it's safe :)
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great, now I can learn the family's native tongue, great grandparents were from Scotland, I never met them, but for some mad reason it tends to catch up with me now and then.
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Which is why I am here asking questions, my grandmothers line of FREER goes back to mid 1600's and married into Blair and Blair married into Stewart.
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Thankyou Gadget, after 2 yrs, finally an answer.
one more if you might know,
In old english writting we see the letter "f" used in place of the "s" with internal lettering of a word, do you know the reason behind that?
flogged.
Hi flogged,
Thought you might like to see the intricate letters and numbers we used to have to write - have a look at this webpage:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/oldenglish.htm
Cheers,
Rena
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Hi Dave :)
Don't see that it is a disagreement!
I said that Ilk meant same but that in the phrase 'of that ilk' it tends to usually mean 'of the same family'
Gadget
Jings Gadge,
why do you always have to have the last word?
I was agreeing with you, just elaborating a wee bit.
flogged, thanks for trying to be the referee.
Great link btw.
Bet you can't resist answering Gadget! ;D
Dave
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Thankyou, will be interesting with the old english, I still have trouble getting through the "f" used in place of the "s" it feels like a lisp.
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There is also the double f - which is used instead of a capital F and then, if you have Welsh ancestors an f is a v and a ff is an f - What fun.
;D
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I migh have Welsh but only if I can find that King Llyr and Penardum are true and real.
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Tell me to take a walk if you like, but how do I ad an image at the side like others do?
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go to your profile and add image.
it needs to be a reasonably small file.
As for double ff, I came across a strange one recently - Fforest. I've never seen anything close to that before.
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Perhaps the Welsh stutter a bit, but I did read a note from a researcher that because they had trouble translating the very old and early welsh language, they could only guess at what some of the lettering was, which is why it appears garbled to many, but at least they understand it.
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No, the Welsh don't stutter - it's just that ff, ll,ch for example, are letters in their own right :)
If it wasn't Fforest it would be pronounced Vorest.
While RC was down, I took a look at this site:
http://www.firstfoot.com/php/glossary/phpglossar_0.8/index.php?letter=a
(Scottish slang word dictionary)
Ffound out that a Gadgie means a townie ;D
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so you would be a townie gadget!
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There is also the double f - which is used instead of a capital F and then, if you have Welsh ancestors an f is a v and a ff is an f - What fun.
;D
I've just had that problem with a 1776 baptism record .. the capital double 'F' makes the place of "Fairburn" look like "Hairburn" - if I hadn't known better I'd have been wondering which notary had had his/her hair burnt at that place ;D
Cheers,
Rena
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Yes we live in a loverly mixxed up mad world don't we Rena.
I note in your list of names for England you have "WARD"
we do to, in Bitton area, at least was married there.
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Gadget.. Hivin a richt guid laugh at the Scottish Slang wed site. ;D ;D
Ahm gonny pass it aon. ;D
Cheers.
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Yes we live in a loverly mixxed up mad world don't we Rena.
I note in your list of names for England you have "WARD"
we do to, in Bitton area, at least was married there.
Hi again flogged,
The WARD family from Newcastle that I'm following originated in Suffolk. I'd noticed from early records that the name seemed to be concentrated along the seaboard and when I saw the meaning of the surname there's no wonder.....
<< Definition: 1) An occupational name for a "guard or watchman," from Old English "weard" = guard. 2) A geographical name for a person who lived near a guardhouse or fortress.
Surname Origin: English
Alternate Surname Spellings: WARDE, WARDMAN, WORDMAN, WARDS >>
.... here endeth this lesson ;D
Cheers,
Rena
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While RC was down, I took a look at this site:
http://www.firstfoot.com/php/glossary/phpglossar_0.8/index.php?letter=a
You come up with the greatest links Townie,
If you had a life, we'd all be lost!
;)
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I work from home, Dave - you know - me art and me writing and ..............................
However, if I get any more of these townie bugs, I shall become a Neep ;D ;D ;D
PS - and I'm an OAP 8)
PPS - I'm watching the Rugby 8)
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Thankyou Rena, a lesson of history I shall gag at forever, (not)
we are stuck in Bitton 1777 with Jane Ward her father a possible Samuel Ward, but that's it, trying for 20 yrs plus and about 20 of us in a group doing the same tree.
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I kid you not. Here is a couple of lines from an email that was sent to me a few hours ago.
PS thanks fur the foties yesentmi takin in the auld graveyerd whitwury dain
up there enywie.
Hiv a guid night ootthenight. seeyiz soon, awrabest.
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Thankyou Rena, a lesson of history I shall gag at forever, (not)
we are stuck in Bitton 1777 with Jane Ward her father a possible Samuel Ward, but that's it, trying for 20 yrs plus and about 20 of us in a group doing the same tree.
Hard luck flogged,
I've got a coachman who did a disappearing act. I know he worked for a large landowner but I have no idea which estate in which county he was born on.
On the off chance Jane's father was a CofE preacher have you checked out the online database? I can't access the website today but I have been on it a couple of times.
The Clergy of the Church of England Database 1540-1835 (CCEd) Website. Searchable Records of clerical careers from 50 archives in England ...
www.theclergydatabase.org.uk
Cheers,
Rena
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Hi Rena, we are way downunder, but several of our group are in England and one very good researcher in Canada, they are constantly going to offices looking for clues, but I refer to the "Cocks Road Gang" have you heard of it, several members of the family were involved with it, hence unregistered births as they kept away from authorities and bullied the townships, it is highly possible Jane and or possibly her father/mother may have been involved with the gang.
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...
In old english writting we see the letter "f" used in place of the "s" with internal lettering of a word, do you know the reason behind that?
flogged.
Hi flogged,
The letter you sometimes see used in place of 's' is NOT an 'f'.
It is what is called the 'long s'.
At first glance it can look rather like an 'f' but it is NOT. A more careful study of the letter shows that it either has no "cross-bar" - thus 'ſ'' - or that the "bar" is not a cross-bar at all but extends only to the left of the downstroke.
The 'long s' should never be transcribed as 'f' but always as 's'.
Unfortunately, it is all too often transcribed as 'f' leading to twee (and wrong) usages such as 'Mifs' instead of 'Miss', etc, etc, etc.
Such errors are what give the impression of (as you commented) of a lisp.
As silvery pointed out in reply #4, there is a useful article in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s
It also includes some interesting external links.
Regards,
JAP
PS: By now you may have gathered that this is something of a hobby-horse of mine. ;D
As is also the twee (and wrong) transcription of the thorn as 'y' (Ye Olde Curiositie Shoppe) instead of 'th'.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(letter)
PPS: ScotlandsPeople, in its glossary, gives the following explanation for "of that ilk".
Ilk Same, used after surname to indicate person is of the estate of the same name as the family
i.e. not 'of the same family' but 'of the estate of the same name as that of the family'.
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Nope, not heard of them flogged, in fact I don't think any of the ancestors I've researched have been of that ilk ::)
I've just checked with the Hugh Wallis site and seen that there are Bitton church records for the 1600's [where only one Thomas Ward(e) was producing girls] but no church records for the period you're researching, which means either they haven't survived or they've not been published. I haven't yet discovered why some church records only seem to have girls and no boys recorded - maybe the parents travelled to the main diocese church with them. If you weren't registered with the parish committee you wouldn't receive aid from the poor box. Sometimes if you're lucky you might find a Settlement Certificate which people had to have when they moved.
Has any of your group searched the online British Library newspaper archives for a clue? These n/papers go back as far as the 1650's and I've found a few of my ordinary rellies mentioned. Online access can only be gained through your local library, so it's worth all of you visiting your library website to see if they are members. You can research from your own computer with the ref. number your library gives you..
http://infotrac.galegroup.com/itweb/lancs?db=BBCN
Good luck
Rena
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Thankyou Rena and Jap,
yes there is a big involvement with the lib's, prodomenantly we are working with LEAR and WARD within Gloucester regions, LEAR was a name spread throughout there but few of the families seem to be connected, we have collected near 1000 names of LEAR including the married names and branches but still have not found with confidence parents for either John LEAR or wife Jane WARD, but have the cert for marriage by banns for them, we have found the dates of birth and christenings for all thier children but nothing going back. Perhaps the 1607 tzunami destroyed many records of families of the coastal areas and the families moved inland,
who know's?
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... I haven't yet discovered why some church records only seem to have girls and no boys recorded ...
Hi Rena,
That early Bitton batch (P016651) is, of course, not a girls only batch.
However, in relation to batches where only the girls have been extracted into the online IGI (though the boys are certainly in the films of the original records), nobody has been able to elicit from the LDS why this has happened. Despite many attempts to find out.
Probably the most recent discussion on RootsChat of 'girls only' batches is at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,350084.60.html
It comprises some 'thread drift' between replies #47-#54 (on page 4 of that thread).
Regards,
JAP
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thanks ref the male/female baptism pointer JAP
Rena