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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: scully on Thursday 12 February 09 22:22 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am trying to find a Thomas Fitzsimons, born about 1870 in Ayr in the 1891 Census and The above Thomas Married to Mary McMillan 22/6/1897 in Wallacetown, in the 1901 census. Thomas was living at 39, Wallace Street,Wallacetown and Mary was living at 23,River Street, Wallacetown, when they were married.
Scully
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1901 for 15 River St Ayr
Thomas Fitzsimmons 30 b Ayr China merchant
Mary 26 b Ayr
Annie 7months b Ayr
Margaret Cumming 40 b Cumnock - visitor occ nurse
Ayr ED 29 Page 12 Line 10
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Hi CaroleW,
Thanks again for your help with the census.
Scully
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No joy with the 1891 I'm afraid. I've tried the English 1891 as well
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Hi Carole,
Thanks for taking the time to look.
Scully
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There's a 21 year old Thomas in Ayr but with the spelling FITZSIMONS !
And there's an 1870 birth in Ayr for Thomas FITZSIMMONS.
In 1881 there's a Thomas, 10 yr old nephew, in the household of John O'HARRO 52 Horse Dealer, b. Ireland and wife Ann.
ibi
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There's a 21 year old Thomas in Ayr but with the spelling FITZSIMONS !
That one is shown as b Ireland - not Ayr
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There's a 21 year old Thomas in Ayr but with the spelling FITZSIMONS !
That one is shown as b Ireland - not Ayr
I'd be near certain that John O'HARA (or the enumerator) got it wrong in 1891 as the same John O'HARRO <sic> in 1881 gives Ayr as his nephew's place of birth.
In 1871 5 mo. old Thomas FITZSUMMONS (a guid broad Ulster accent there?), grandson, is in the household of James SCULLION, Swine Dealer - Thomas's mother was Mary SCULLION. Both Thomas and his 2 yr old sister Annie, are shown as born Ayrshire St Quivox, which most folk would describe as Ayr.
ibi
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Hi ibi,
Thanks for the information, James Scullion is the right family. Mary died in 1874.
its just that i could not find Thomas or Annie after 1881. I think i have now found Thomas's marriage in1897 aged 26. It do's say his father was a Robert instead of Thomas but it do's have the right mothers name.
Scully
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Hi Scully
I need to review all the stuff that I looked at late last / early this morning as there was also this Thomas / Robert switch which makes me twitchy .........
ibi
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Hi ibi,
Thanks for taking up your time to check.
Scully
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Hi ibi,
Thanks for taking up your time to check.
Scully
Hi Scully
Nae prob!
I like puzzles !!
In my general experience the range of research possibilities is covered by the extremes ......
EXTREME 1 : Every record fits together with few if any contradictions, errors or omissions, and, where there are any such, they are very easily resolved and explained.
EXTREME 2 : There are multiple contradictions, errors or ommissions, sometimes understandable, but sometimes not; in the ultimate, without substantial 'elimination' research on possible, parallel lines, connected or otherwise, so that it can be the case that it just ain't clear what the real situation was.
In general, in my experience, the balance of research sitautions lies more towards EXTREME1 than EXTREME2 .........
Here, however, for the moment I feel that we're about half way between EXTREME1 than EXTREME2 ......... :'(
Let's review the info, that we have...............
1867 Marriage Ayr
Thomas FITZSIMMONS, 22
Engine Driver
[Note: 'Engine Driver' could apply not only to a railway locomotive driver, but also to the 'driver', i.e. operator, of a stationary steam engine.]
Parents Thomas FITZSIMMONS, Labourer, and Helen FITZSIMMONS MS DIVINE
Mary SCULLION, 19
Sewer
Parents Thomas SCULLION, Carter, and Elizabeth SCULLION MS BROWN
1870 Birth Ayr
Thomas FITZSIMMONS
Kilmarnock Street, St Quivox
Parents: Thomas FITZSIMMONS, Engine Driver and
Mary FITZSIMMONS MS SCULLION
married 1867 Sept 9th St Quivox
1874 Death Ayr
This is where it starts to get problematic !
Mary FITZSIMMONS, aged 26, but note that this matches exactly the 1867 marriage age of 19 .........
Married to Robert FITZSIMMONS, Pit Engine Man
but 'Pit Engine Man' is not in conflict with the earlier 'Engine Driver'
Parents: James SCULLION Pig Dealer [conflicts with the 1867 marriage record, Thomas]
and Margaret SCULLION MS BROWN [conflicts with the 1867 marriage record Elizabeth.......]
Informant: Robert FITZSIMMONS
NB 1871 census record showing James SCULLION as 'Swine Dealer'
1897 Marriage Thomas FITZSIMMONS / Mary McMILLAN
Just to make life really interesting, as is so often the case in such situations ! :-\, the image is not available on ScotlandsPeople, but your info from the certificate is that the father was a Robert, instead of Thomas but the mother's name matches, - I assume Mary SCULLION, - please confirm.
Likewise, what is shown as the father's occupation?, and is he shown as deceased or not at the time of the 1897 marriage ?
Various Censuses
As previously noted it appears to be possible to track Thomas, b. 1870 thru the various censuses from 1871 to 1901, despite a probable error on the part of his uncle John O'HARA/O'HARRO [1891/1881 variants] as regar the 10 year old Thomas' place of birth........
If the 1897 marriage register entry for Robert is shown as an engine driver or anything closely similar then I'd vote for wee Thomas' father Thomas changing his name to Robert, for whatever reason.
Even so, such a change doesn't leave me feeling comfortable
As a great friend of mine was wont to say, I end up confused, but on a higher level.
changes may follow on review of this post, but I need to get this version on line ...................
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Hi ibi,
It do's say his mother was Mary Scullion on his marriage of 1897. His father was not deceased on the marriage and was an Engine Keeper. I have just found Thomas's death in the Six Kyle Graveyards MI,s book and checked his death it said his parents were Robert Fitzsimmons and Mary Scullion and his father was an Engineman (Deceased). Also on the same Mi's there is a Ann Fitzsimmons married to John O'Hara which fits in with 1881 Census. So it looks like the names around the the births and marriage may have been a bit mixed up. Don't know if you agree.
Scully
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Hi ibi,
It do's say his mother was Mary Scullion on his marriage of 1897. His father was not deceased on the marriage and was an Engine Keeper. I have just found Thomas's death in the Six Kyle Graveyards MI,s book and checked his death it said his parents were Robert Fitzsimmons and Mary Scullion and his father was an Engineman (Deceased).
Which fits !
I've also found the death of Thomas's sister Annie at 9 years old, the information again fitting, but still leaving this double identity Thomas/Robert wide open !
Also on the same Mi's there is a Ann Fitzsimmons married to John O'Hara which fits in with 1881 Census.
Which fits
Ann O'HARA MS FITZSIMMONS died 1909, Informant Thomas FITZSIMMONS, Nephew, of 16 River Street. I was in River Street just there on Wednesday for lunch at The Swan, Ayr's oldest restaurant, which Thomas would have known !
So it looks like the names around the the births and marriage may have been a bit mixed up. Don't know if you agree.
Very probably.
But before reaching a final conclusion I just want to sit back and review all we have to date.
Orraverybest
ibi
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Aye weel, that didnae take long at a' ;)
Things crystalised quite quickly for me, so to speak..............
I reckon that there was never a Thomas, only ever a Robert.
It's possible to dream up scenarios where Thomas changed his name to Robert; or Thomas died and his widow remarried his brother Robert, of which there is no evidence, but applying Occam's Razor (Gie it a Google if ye arnae familar wi 'Occam') leads me to the following conclusion.
There's an error on the 1867 marriage record resulting in Robert being shown as Thomas.
It's not generally realised that the procedure for the registration of a marriage was quite different. For a B or D the informant turned up at the office of the registrar, and, in front of the registrar or his assistant, the info was there and then entered in both registers (one was kept locally, the other was sent to Edinburgh the following January).
The informant then signed or made their mark and that was that !, unless an RCE entry was later required. Once the register entries had been signed by the registrar, an alteration or addition could only be made via an RCE entry; OK, in the first decade or so, there was some confusion over the procedure, and an addition/alteration will occasionally be seen in the margin of the register entry.
For a marriage, however, the couple obtained a "Marriage Schedule' from the registrar, - I've never been clear whether this was filled in in the presence of the registrar to the extent possible, or only later in front of the officiating minister.
Whatever, after the ceremony, somebody, often the best man trotted along to the registrar's office and passed over the completed schedule signed by the couple, the witnesses, and the minister.
The registrar then copied all the info from this Marriage Schedule (engrossed is the guid auld Scots word) into his Register Books of Marriages, and that was that.
Two possibilities for error here, - wrong info during the filling in of the schedule or an error during the transcription.......
These schedules still exist, but only in really exceptional circumstances will GROS grant access, and then, only to the signatures of the couple, which might well not help here if Robert just made his mark !, but maybe just still worth it.
For the 1868 birth of Annie, the informant is the granny Margaret SCULLION, and it shows the father as Robert.
On the 1870 birth register entry for wee Thomas I can well imagine a scenario where the registrar asks Robert "What's the father's name?" but Robert mishears that as "What's your father's name?" and replies accordingly, resulting in the father of wee Thomas being shown as Thomas FITZSIMMONS. Thomas/Robert makes his mark in the register.
On both these birth records the date of the marriage is shown as September 1867.
In 1874 Robert loses his wife to Phthisis Pulmonaris, aged 26. The Widower, Robert FITZSIMMONS signs the register but it is a very halting and unpracticed signature .......
Every relevant record thereafter refers to him as 'Robert'.
Oanybuddy goat a different thesis, but ? ;D
What would help in order to go from strong suggestion to certainty would be an 1871 census entry for the family of Robert, Mary, Ann[ie] and Thomas, but I'm d****d if I can find one even turning numerous sumersaults with wildcards and considering areas other than Ayr .........
Similarly, it would help to find birth records for the family of Thomas FITZSIMMONS and Helen FITZSIMMONS MS DIVIN[E], Robert's parents, but could it be relevant that the 1867 marriage of Robert/Thomas FITZSIMMONS and Mary SCULLION was according to the Forms of the Roman Catholic Church ? (just where, I wonder, are the long promised index and images of the Scottish Catholic births, confirmation marriages, death etc.? )
And again, similarly, after 1874 I just cannot find any further record for Robert/Thomas, such as a remarriage (the wains, Annie and Thomas, in any case were obviously looked after by grandparents and other relatives), a death record that fits, or a census record in 1881 or later.
Did Robert/Thomas leave Scotland, going back to Ireland or elsewhere in the UK, or even further abroad, furth of Auld Scotia ? :-\
Pheeeeewwww ................. ;)
See some genealogy puzzles, they wad burst ye!, but, to use guid West of Scotland vernacular ::)
ibi
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Hi ibi,
I have been trying find the death of Robert/Thomas. It seems he was alive when Thomas was married in 1897 but dead by 1920 when Thomas had died.
But i did find this Death, 5/10/1887 Tarbolton. Thomas Fitzsimmons, Engine Keeper married to Mary Ann Young. Parents- Thomas Fitzsimmons, Lab, and Ellen ------. both (Deceased). very odd when most thing seem to fit except the ages and year. and Mary could have been his second wife .What do you think.
It seem to get more puzzeling.
Scully
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Hi ibi,
I have been trying find the death of Robert/Thomas. It seems he was alive when Thomas was married in 1897 but dead by 1920 when Thomas had died.
But i did find this Death, 5/10/1887 Tarbolton. Thomas Fitzsimmons, Engine Keeper married to Mary Ann Young. Parents- Thomas Fitzsimmons, Lab, and Ellen ------. both (Deceased). very odd when most thing seem to fit except the ages and year. and Mary could have been his second wife .What do you think.
It seem to get more puzzeling.
Scully
Disnae work. I'm afraid.
This Thomas married Mary Tearnie in 1844 in St Quivox !
ibi
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Hi Ibi,
Thanks for the info. I will just have to keep trying.
Scully
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I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to get any further with the problem of whether the husband of Mary SCULLION was Thomas FITZSIMMONS or Robert FITZSIMMONS.
For my own benefit, I'll recap the findings so far (lots of work by ibi!) and ask some questions - please don't hesitate to point out any misunderstandings.
1867
Thomas FITZSIMMONS marries Mary SCULLION. His age recorded as 22 (i.e. b ca 1845) and occupation as engine driver.
1868
Daughter Annie born. Registered by her SCULLION grandmother. Father's name given as Robert
1870
Son Thomas born. Registered by his father whose name is recorded (and signed? he made his mark - see reply #14 by ibi) as Thomas.
1871 census
Mary, Annie and baby Thomas are with Mary's parents.
As far as I am aware Robert/Thomas has not yet been found in this census or in any subsequent census?
1874
Mary dies. Husband's name given as Robert.
Who was the informant? Informant was Robert FITZSIMMONS who signed his name (see replies #11 & #14 by ibi)
ca 1877
Annie dies aged 9.
Who was the informant? What name is recorded as her father?
1897
Thomas jnr (b 1870) marries. His father's name is recorded as Thomas Robert (see reply #8 by scully).
Did Thomas jnr ever know his father? As a baby in 1871 he was with his mother and sister (but not his father) at his SCULLION grandparents. In 1881 and 1891 he was with his Uncle John O'HARA and Aunt Ann (FITZSIMMONS) O'HARA.
Date??
At Thomas jnr's death (informant?) and/or burial, his father is recorded as Robert, an engine driver.
Did Thomas/Robert ever, himself, give his name as Robert? Or only as Thomas? Yes, as informant of the death of his wife Mary in 1874 he gave his name as Robert - see above under 1874
There is a possible Robert in 1851 with appropriate parents - but age does not quite fit the marriage age (perhaps he lowered it a little because Mary was only 19).
1851
Ayrshire, Newton on Ayr, Saltfield St
FITZSIMONS
Thomas 53, Coal Shipper, b Ireland
Helen 44, wife, b Ireland
Mary 17, daughter, Woolen Factory, b S Newton, Ayr
Helen 15, daughter, Woolen Factory, b S Newton, Ayr
Daniel 12, son, Woolen Factory, b S Newton, Ayr
Robert 9 (i.e. b ca 1842), son, Woolen Factory, b S Newton, Ayr
Helen D HARA (sic) 1, granddaughter, b S Newton, Ayr
The only one I've traced is Daniel - through to 1901 (under some pretty innovative spellings as transcribed). He married a Catherine CURRIE in 1859, and was an Engine Keeper (or similar) in all censuses after 1851.
Was Mary listed as married in 1871?
Might Thomas/Robert have died or decamped after the birth of baby Thomas? No.
Who was the informant of Mary's death in 1874? Robert was. See above under 1874.
JAP
Note: edits/corrections are made in red above (many many thanks to trish251 for her very helpful pointers).
Note: Robert, with father Thomas & mother Helen, has now been found in the 1861 census (see later - reply #27 by ibi). Robert's age is given as 17 i.e. born ca 1844.
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I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to get any further with the problem of whether the husband of Mary SCULLION was Thomas FITZSIMMONS or Robert FITZSIMMONS.
For my own benefit, I'll recap the findings so far (lots of work by ibi!) and ask some questions - please don't hesitate to point out any misunderstandings.
1867
Thomas FITZSIMMONS marries Mary SCULLION. His age recorded as 22 (i.e. b ca 1845) and occupation as engine driver.
1868
Daughter Annie born. Registered by her SCULLION grandmother. Father's name given as Robert
1870
Son Thomas born. Registered by his father whose name is recorded (and signed?) as Thomas.
Copious information on 1870 birth informant given above.
1871 census
Mary, Annie and baby Thomas are with Mary's parents.
As far as I am aware Robert/Thomas has not yet been found in this census or in any subsequent census?
That's what's clearly said in this thread.
1874
Mary dies. Husband's name given as Robert.
Who was the informant?
See above, info in a couple of places in this thread.
ca 1877
Annie dies aged 9.
Who was the informant? What name is recorded as her father?
See above, already in this thread.
1897
Thomas jnr (b 1870) marries. His father's name is recorded as Thomas.
Incorrect, see earlier in this thread.
Did Thomas jnr ever know his father? As a baby in 1871 he was with his mother and sister (but not his father) at his SCULLION grandparents. In 1881 and 1891 he was with his Uncle John O'HARA and Aunt Ann (FITZSIMMONS) O'HARA.
Date??
At Thomas jnr's death (informant?) and/or burial, his father is recorded as Robert, an engine driver.
Did Thomas/Robert ever, himself, give his name as Robert?
Yes, see above.
Or only as Thomas?
No, see above in this thread,
......snipped ........
ibi
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I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to get any further with the problem of whether the husband of Mary SCULLION was Thomas FITZSIMMONS or Robert FITZSIMMONS.
For my own benefit, I'll recap the findings so far (lots of work by ibi!) and ask some questions - please don't hesitate to point out any misunderstandings.
1867
Thomas FITZSIMMONS marries Mary SCULLION. His age recorded as 22 (i.e. b ca 1845) and occupation as engine driver.
1868
Daughter Annie born. Registered by her SCULLION grandmother. Father's name given as Robert
1870
Son Thomas born. Registered by his father whose name is recorded (and signed?) as Thomas.
Copious information on 1870 birth informant given above.
1871 census
Mary, Annie and baby Thomas are with Mary's parents.
As far as I am aware Robert/Thomas has not yet been found in this census or in any subsequent census?
That's what's clearly said in this thread.
1874
Mary dies. Husband's name given as Robert.
Who was the informant?
See above, info in a couple of places in this thread.
ca 1877
Annie dies aged 9.
Who was the informant? What name is recorded as her father?
See above, already in this thread.
1897
Thomas jnr (b 1870) marries. His father's name is recorded as Thomas.
Incorrect, see earlier in this thread.
Did Thomas jnr ever know his father? As a baby in 1871 he was with his mother and sister (but not his father) at his SCULLION grandparents. In 1881 and 1891 he was with his Uncle John O'HARA and Aunt Ann (FITZSIMMONS) O'HARA.
Date??
At Thomas jnr's death (informant?) and/or burial, his father is recorded as Robert, an engine driver.
Did Thomas/Robert ever, himself, give his name as Robert?
Yes, see above.
Or only as Thomas?
No, see above in this thread,
......snipped ........
ibi
Hi All,
ibi, thank you for your comments.
I have other commitments just now. However, I will come back later (or probably tomorrow my time) and check through the thread. I will then edit my summary appropriately with annotations - and I will source amendments to those who originally provided the information.
I won't check out original certificates - too costly for me.
I will do it this way (i.e. editing the summary) because I, for one, always find it helpful to have a summary to check back to. And I certainly do not wish to leave a summary online if it has errors of fact, or incorrect implications.
Back later,
JAP
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Hi Ibi
Wouldn't it be easier for everyone reading the summary, if you added the information you have, rather than say "see above" . Above is quite a few large posts and a summary makes it easier for other folks to help. Based on your "see above" comments, I find the following which I hope will help JAP update her summary.
I have not added further where you said such things as "That's what's clearly said in this thread" - a summary will obviously gather information previously given in the thread.
1870
Son Thomas born. Registered by his father whose name is recorded (and signed?) as Thomas
I can find nothing above that states whether father Robert/Thomas was the informant & signed as such, so it seems a good question. if he signed his name as Thomas, then he wasn't Robert (at that time) If he signed with a mark or the registrar wrote his name, different story perhaps.
1874
Mary dies. Husband's name given as Robert.
Who was the informant?
Informant: Robert FITZSIMMONS - information given on reply #11 from Ibi
(I assume IBI downloaded some SP images - I must start asking questions about my folks :) )
ca 1877
Annie dies aged 9.
Who was the informant? What name is recorded as her father?
I've also found the death of Thomas's sister Annie at 9 years old, the information again fitting, but still leaving this double identity Thomas/Robert wide open ! - reply #13 from Ibi - this is the only comment I can see about the death of Annie. What information fitted?
1897
Thomas jnr (b 1870) marries. His father's name is recorded as Thomas
I think i have now found Thomas's marriage in1897 aged 26. It do's say his father was a Robert instead of Thomas but it do's have the right mothers name. reply #8 from Scully
Did Thomas jnr ever know his father? As a baby in 1871 he was with his mother and sister (but not his father) at his SCULLION grandparents. In 1881 and 1891 he was with his Uncle John O'HARA and Aunt Ann (FITZSIMMONS) O'HARA.
Date??
At Thomas jnr's death (informant?) and/or burial, his father is recorded as Robert, an engine driver.
Did Thomas/Robert ever, himself, give his name as Robert? Or only as Thomas?
I am unsure as to what the reply Yes - see above means as a response to multiple questions.
Or only as Thomas?
Thomas was apparently given (if the father was the informant) in 1870 - reply #11 by Ibi gives parents on birth record - but not informant that I can see.
I hope this helps with your update JAP. My apologies if I missed something among the replies (not uncommon when lots of information given). The 1851 census looks interesting
Trish
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Hello All,
If you look at the family history of the Fitzsimmons, all variations, in Ayrshire, starting with the origins of this family Thomas Fitzsimmons, and Helen Divan, you will come to the conclusion that Robert, is the actual partner of Mary Scullion, and not Thomas.
Its really quite straightforward.
Regards,
Jonn.
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Hi All,
Just ducked in for a minute.
Many thanks to you Trish for your comments.
I'll still go through it all carefully tomorrow.
Hi Jonn, Not sure where you fit in and why you have come to that conclusion?
You may well be right. And are almost certainly right.
But wouldn't it be great to find an explanation of the Thomas/Robert confusion.
And doubts have been expressed elsewhere on this thread. So proof is needed.
And unfortunately, in genealogy, the obvious is not always proven to be correct. Notwithstanding old William of Occam/Ockham (ca 1288-ca 1348) for whom I have always had, and still have, huge respect*. But too many genealogists have followed false trails by believing in the 'obvious'. Though I suspect that the obvious is correct in this case.
So I'll have to think about all this tomorrow BUT very carefully ...
Yes, I did manage to find the parents (Thomas and Helen) with a Robert aged 9 in 1851 (age a bit out for "our" Thomas/Robert).
But, I think, we still haven't found Thomas & Helen, or Robert/Thomas, in 1861 - come on everyone, keep searching!!
All things are possible!
Regards,
JAP
*I'm getting very unusually personal here - my apologies but it is about Occam's Razor. My late ex-b-i-l appeared on an Australian science show (Robyn Williams) talking about Occam's Razor and is quoted on the following site as an adherent;
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-6742416_ITM
Which probably explains why I have a bit of a "thing" about Occam!
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Hi All
Can I pop in and add something that I've just found. Not sure if it's been found before but it's not in JAP's, Trish's or Ibi's summaries:
1871 census
30 Princes Street, Glasgow - 644/5 ED 2 Page 18
Mary Cronin, hd, wid, 21 or 27, lodging house keeper, b. Ireland
Her family and lodgers including:
Robert Fitzsimmons, lodger, 26, b. Ireland. (ie. b.c 1845)
Robert is amongst a group of men (possibly sharing a room), the first of which is down as Unm and all the rest are 'doed'. In the occupation field for all of them is written 'Trade not known'
No Thomas of the right age so far on the 1871 - with lots of wildcards.
Nothing on the 1861 yet.
Gadget
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Hi Trish
Hi Ibi
Wouldn't it be easier for everyone reading the summary, if you added the information you have, rather than say "see above" . Above is quite a few large posts and a summary makes it easier for other folks to help. Based on your "see above" comments, I find the following which I hope will help JAP update her summary.
Two summaries have already been given at earlier stages.
I find it difficult to see why I'm expected to supply yet a further summary to a long list of questions from someone who has clearly not properly read the thread.
Son Thomas born. Registered by his father whose name is recorded (and signed?) as Thomas[/b]
I can find nothing above that states whether father Robert/Thomas was the informant & signed as such, so it seems a good question. if he signed his name as Thomas, then he wasn't Robert (at that time) If he signed with a mark or the registrar wrote his name, different story perhaps.
In one earlier summary, I wrote
On the 1870 birth register entry for wee Thomas I can well imagine a scenario where the registrar asks Robert "What's the father's name?" but Robert mishears that as "What's your father's name?" and replies accordingly, resulting in the father of wee Thomas being shown as Thomas FITZSIMMONS. Thomas/Robert makes his mark in the register.
I can only apolgize if I haven't made clear what's on the register entry.
1874
Mary dies. Husband's name given as Robert.
Who was the informant?
Informant: Robert FITZSIMMONS - information given on reply #11 from Ibi
(I assume IBI downloaded some SP images - I must start asking questions about my folks :) )
I may or may not answer such questions! It all depends on whether the situations involved intrigue me.
ca 1877
Annie dies aged 9.
Who was the informant? What name is recorded as her father?
I've also found the death of Thomas's sister Annie at 9 years old, the information again fitting, but still leaving this double identity Thomas/Robert wide open ! - reply #13 from Ibi - this is the only comment I can see about the death of Annie. What information fitted?
The information on the register entry. I'm certainly not going to transcribe every single register entry that I look at!
1897
Thomas jnr (b 1870) marries. His father's name is recorded as Thomas
I think i have now found Thomas's marriage in1897 aged 26. It do's say his father was a Robert instead of Thomas but it do's have the right mothers name. reply #8 from Scully
Quite!
Did Thomas jnr ever know his father? As a baby in 1871 he was with his mother and sister (but not his father) at his SCULLION grandparents. In 1881 and 1891 he was with his Uncle John O'HARA and Aunt Ann (FITZSIMMONS) O'HARA.
Date??
At Thomas jnr's death (informant?) and/or burial, his father is recorded as Robert, an engine driver.
Did Thomas/Robert ever, himself, give his name as Robert? Or only as Thomas?
I am unsure as to what the reply Yes - see above means as a response to multiple questions.
Maybe it wasn't clear that I was answering the last para.
Or only as Thomas?
Thomas was apparently given (if the father was the informant) in 1870 - reply #11 by Ibi gives parents on birth record - but not informant that I can see.
In one earlier summary, I wrote
On the 1870 birth register entry for wee Thomas I can well imagine a scenario where the registrar asks Robert "What's the father's name?" but Robert mishears that as "What's your father's name?" and replies accordingly, resulting in the father of wee Thomas being shown as Thomas FITZSIMMONS. Thomas/Robert makes his mark in the register.[/i]
I trust that this makes everything clear.
ibi
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.......snipped
But wouldn't it be great to find an explanation of the Thomas/Robert confusion.
I've already offered one.
And doubts have been expressed elsewhere on this thread. So proof is needed.
I'm not aware that I've stated that there aren't any doubts. But, given the available info, proof is very unlikely.
......snipped..............
Yes, I did manage to find the parents (Thomas and Helen) with a Robert aged 9 in 1851 (age a bit out for "our" Thomas/Robert).
But no-one seems to have picked up on the significance of the granddaughter in the household thus positively linking this family to the Robert we're looking for.
But, I think, we still haven't found Thomas & Helen, or Robert/Thomas, in 1861 - come on everyone, keep searching!!
I have but I wanted to let Scully see the info first.
But that's not to say that there's a Thomas missing from the household in both 1851 and 1861 ........
......snipped..........
ibi
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Hi All
Can I pop in and add something that I've just found. Not sure if it's been found before but it's not in JAP's, Trish's or Ibi's summaries:
1871 census
30 Princes Street, Glasgow - 644/5 ED 2 Page 18
Mary Cronin, hd, wid, 21 or 27, lodging house keeper, b. Ireland
Her family and lodgers including:
Robert Fitzsimmons, lodger, 26, b. Ireland. (ie. b.c 1845)
Robert is amongst a group of men (possibly sharing a room), the first of which is down as Unm and all the rest are 'doed'. In the occupation field for all of them is written 'Trade not known'
Unlikely, given the place of birth as Ireland, not Ayr, or St Quivox, plus the fact that where an occupation was reported for Robert, he was consistently shown as an engine driver or the like.
No Thomas of the right age so far on the 1871 - with lots of wildcards.
But until and unless an unambiguous entry for a Robert or Thomas is found ...........
Nothing on the 1861 yet.
'Hiding' in Newton-on-Ayr RD as opposed to Ayr RD which later incorporated Newton-on-Ayr,
Thomas FITZIMONS, 61 Pit Head(?) Man b. Ireland
Helen Do Wife 55 Housekeeper b. St. Quivox
Robt Do Son 17 Engine Driver b. Newtown-on-Ayr
In the earlier 1851 census entry there's a granddaughter Helen O'HARA, the daughter Ann of the above Thomas FITZIMONS having married John O'HARA.
Unfortunately the location of a matching Robert in 1851 and 1861 doesn't mean that there isn't a Thomas lurking somewhere else.
The family may have been Roman Catholic so that when those records become more widely available we may be able to move nearer proof.
ibi
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Think you're being a bit too dismissive of the 1871 find, ibi.
Engine drivers might go from Ayr to Glasgow and stay the night. Also, as it was a lodging house, the landlady doesn't seem to have been too thorough in her other facts. I don't think that this should be discounted out of hand at all.
Gadget
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Think you're being a bit too dismissive of the 1871 find, ibi.
Engine drivers might go from Ayr to Glasgow and stay the night. Also, as it was a lodging house, the landlady doesn't seem to have been too thorough in her other facts. I don't think that this should be discounted out of hand at all.
Gadget
Gadget
See my PM.
Orraverybest
ibi
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Hello All,
If you look at the family history of the Fitzsimmons, all variations, in Ayrshire, starting with the origins of this family Thomas Fitzsimmons, and Helen Divan, you will come to the conclusion that Robert, is the actual partner of Mary Scullion, and not Thomas.
Its really quite straightforward.
Regards,
Jonn.
Hi John
Thanks for your comments.
ibi
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Hi All
Please note that I won't be posting further on this thread.
I'm in direct contact with Scully by email.
ibi
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....
Yes, I did manage to find the parents (Thomas and Helen) with a Robert aged 9 in 1851 (age a bit out for "our" Thomas/Robert).
But no-one seems to have picked up on the significance of the granddaughter in the household thus positively linking this family to the Robert we're looking for.
Just a very quick comment before I all too very belatedly retire to my virtuous antipodean couch!
(And what a dreadful shame that this thread has developed as it has. This is not what RC is normally like.)
Yes, I drew attention to the 1851 census entry which had not previously been mentioned or posted on the thread.
But the presence of Helen D HARA (sic), granddaughter, age 1 in the household of Thomas & Helen FITZSIMMONS in 1851 was so 'mind-bogglingly' obvious (given previous posts by ibi which so clearly spelled out the relationships of the FITZSIMMONSs and the O'HARAs) that it didn't remotely occur to me to draw specific attention to granddaughter Helen's presence. We could surely work that out for ourselves, couldn't we? And if not, we've surely all got a problem. :)
Very best regards to scully (hope you stay with us!) and all,
JAP
PS: And I hope that future correspondence about these people is online rather than by PM.
That's how everybody on RootsChat benefits as do people who make Google searches.
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Hi All,
Thanks to you all for your input. I didn,t think it would cause such a debate.
But here is a little bit more information I found out about the family. Its an MI from St Margaert's R.C.Church, John St, Ayr.
Erected by Ann Fitzsommons in memory of her beloved husband John O'Hara, Merchant, Died at Ayr, 16/12/1900 aged 78yrs. Also in memory of their daughter Helen, died Oct/1846 aged 3yrs 9mths. Also the above Ann Fitzsimons who died 8/12/1909 aged 85yrs. John Fitzsimmons, died 19/6/1916 aged10yrs. Thomas Fitzsimmons died 16/7/1920 aged 49yrs. Also his wife Mary McM Fitzsimmons died 11/6/1956 aged 81yrs.
Don't know who this John is who died in 1916. He might be the child of Thomas Fitzsimmons & Mary McMillan.
Scully
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Hi Scully,
After editing/correcting my summary (reply #18 ), I've come to the conclusion that Thomas is a red herring - just simple errors on the 1867 marriage entry, and the 1870 birth entry.
So, concentrating on looking for a Robert FITZSIMMONS of the right age, I've come up with the following which is surely "your" Robert! Sorry about the location!
1871 Census
Kilmarnock Prison, Ayrshire
Robert FITZIMMONS
Prisoner
Age: 26 (i.e. born ca 1845)
Birthplace: Ayr, Ayrshire
Occupation: Engine Keeper
This would explain why wife Mary, and children Annie and Thomas, were with Mary's parents in 1871.
And perhaps again (or still? - was he allowed out for a time when Mary died?) in prison in 1881 - but now in England.
1881 Census
RG11/897/77/40
HM Convict Prison, Chatham, Kent
Robert FITZSIMMONS
Prisoner
Age: 36 (i.e. born ca 1845)
Marital Status: Married
Birthplace: Scotland
Occupation: Convict
'Married' is interesting (though, if he was 'still' in prison, that might have come from his original records).
JAP
PS: I couldn't find mention of Robert in the online NAS. Perhaps there might be something in their card index.
Here is a RootsChat thread discussing possible sources for records of HM Prison, Chatham, Kent:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,61753.0.html
PPS: (later edit) Gadget, I think your Glasgow 1871 idea was a very good one and I was about to follow it up - until I found the above! And that Kent chap has been niggling at me for a while ...
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hi Jap,
Thats probably why i can't find his death in Scotland. I'd love to find out what he had done and why he was in prison. I wonder why in 1871 he was in Kilmarnock Prison and in 1881 he was in a prison in Kent. Well its another puzzle to find out. Thanks for the info.
Scully
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The Nat Archives of Scotland would hold the criminal/prison records for Kilmarnock http://www.nas.gov.uk/guides/crime.asp but they might well be held in a local records office/archives/library.
I got some from Kirkcudbright about a case and subsequent imprisonment for 1 night involving my 3grt grandfather from the Kirkcudbright Museum and Archives. Not sure where the Archives would be for Ayrshire. Ibi would know if he would come back.
Gadget
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http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
As I said "I couldn't find mention of Robert in the online NAS. Perhaps there might be something in their card index".
I certainly found extensive records (80 pages - very expensive to have photocopied) for my black sheep in the NAS in the J26 and other listings - he committed the crime (uttering and forgery) in Aberdour/Dalgety, Fife; was tried in the Perth Assizes; imprisoned in the Perth Prison; transferred to the Portsmouth prison hulks ..... and pardoned!
The Ayrshire Archives are online at:
http://www.ayrshirearchives.org.uk/
But they seem still to be in disarray due to moves. Though i couldn't find anything appropriate in their online catalogue ...
Certainly well worth following up with the NAS and the Ayrshire Archives.
And also perhaps with local newspapers of the day.
JAP
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Ah - I misread your message JAP. I thought that you'd looked for the Chatham records at the Nat Archives :-[
I tried various versions of Robert Fitzsimmons on the NAS online catalogue but, like you, found nothing. I hope he wasn't called Thomas again :-\
Mine was imprisoned for withholding evidence - he didn't want to think that he might be sending someone to Australia ::)
Gadget
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Mine was convicted in 1848 in the Perth Assizes. Somehow he managed to get pardoned in 1852 when he was on the Portsmouth hulks - just before he was about to be shipped off to Australia. And then - obviously disappointed that he'd missed out on coming to Australia :) - he came free to Australia in 1855 with wife and children; and became a successful businessman (no comment!).
JAP
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Hi Jap & Gadget,
Thanks for your help in trying to find out where Robert was and why he was in Prison.
Scully
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Think my family are related to this Fitzsimmons family.
My Grandad was James Smith Dunlop or Fitzsimmons on an extract of an entry from the Register of Births for Scotland and was born in 1924.
His mother's maiden name was Janet Dunlop who married Robert Fitzsimmons, a coal miner from Tarbolton. Theres no fathers name on my Grandads birth certificate as Robert died the previous year.
I then think Roberts parents were Robert Fitzsimmons who married Martha McGarry in 1876. His parents were then Thomas Fitzsimmons who married Helen Divine (not sure on maiden name).
My Grandad had 3 brothers Hugh who was born in 1921 and died in 1947, Francis and Robert but i have no other information on them and a sister called Janet who i believe married a William Dunlop.