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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Georgfriedrich on Wednesday 11 February 09 11:47 GMT (UK)
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Charles John Theophilus Winckler was a pianoforte maker. There are a few Wincklers and Winklers in the 1841 census who are pianoforte makers and I know that somehow they are connected. We know that CJTWs father was called Christian. CJTW says his father was dead in 1842 when he married Charlotte Ebden...
In the 1841 census CJTW is living with who appears to be his aunt and her husband as well as his future wife and in-laws.
I am trying to find out who CJTWs parents are. He says in the 1851 census that he was born in St Pancras. There are a lot of Wincklers in that parish too.
There appears to be an ancestor called Christian Gottfried marrying Lucy Free but there is no concrete proof. ???
Is anyone able to assist in finding the pre1841 roots of this pianoforte making family? ;)
Thanks
Kirk
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Hi Kirk,
While I'm having a think, and seeing what is available online, I thought you might like to have a look at this interesting site:
http://www.ennever.com/histories/history129.php
Hope you find it interesting.
Paulene :)
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Hi again,
The following book, which I found on google books (limited view - but good) confirms what I thought; that he must have served an apprenticeship. It looks as if they served an apprenticeship - some served as apprentice cabinet makers (guild of cabinet makers). The records of these guilds will probably be a the Guildhall Library in London.
These apprenticeship records can tell you who they served apprenticeships with, how much was paid, where and sometimes it tells you "son of......."
Although apprenticeship records for my husband's ancestors were not for the same trade, they were brilliant for sorting out who belonged to who, etc.
Hope this helps - still looking.
Paulene :)
Pianos and Their Makers By Alfred Dolge
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That is a very good idea Paulene!
Yes those apprentice records are very handy and I have used them before but I didn't think of them for the pianoforte making Wincklers. I do not live in England so I cannot access them easily. I shall have to wait a bit I guess.
Kirk
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Chris,
Need to ask where they were living in 1841.
Also, it might be worth emailing the Guildhall Library to see if they've indexed the names. London Metropolitan Archives might have the records of apprenticeship also.
Bye for now,
Paulene :)
Only one Winckler will on documentsonline (National Archives) - dated 1730. Worth remembering in case it's useful later, Chris. Gentleman from Westminster area.
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Nothing in historical directories :(
www.historicaldirectories.org
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Some interesting pieces of information in this, Chris:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22173
Did you ancestor live in any of the areas mentioned for the makers in London at the end of the eighteenth century?
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Hello from France,
I came across your message because I am tracing a Winckler family in India. One of them was called John Theophilus Winckler and was born in 1831. His father was John Frederick, and the ancestor of them all was Pieter Winkler who came from Schleswig-Holstein, was probably from Dutch origin and settled in Cochin c.1800.
I found a Christian Martin Frederick Winkler, born in India in 1827.
Do you think your CJTW's father could have come from India ?
Best wishes and a very happy Christmas
Annick Storey
Charles John Theophilus Winckler was a pianoforte maker. There are a few Wincklers and Winklers in the 1841 census who are pianoforte makers and I know that somehow they are connected. We know that CJTWs father was called Christian. CJTW says his father was dead in 1842 when he married Charlotte Ebden...
In the 1841 census CJTW is living with who appears to be his aunt and her husband as well as his future wife and in-laws.
I am trying to find out who CJTWs parents are. He says in the 1851 census that he was born in St Pancras. There are a lot of Wincklers in that parish too.
There appears to be an ancestor called Christian Gottfried marrying Lucy Free but there is no concrete proof. ???
Is anyone able to assist in finding the pre1841 roots of this pianoforte making family? ;)
Thanks
Kirk
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Hello Annick,
I don't know the answer to that question except to say 'maybe'.
The fact that you have a JT Winckler may be a coincidence or it may not although it is interesting that they both have John Theophilus in their names.
CJT Winckler says that his father's name was Christian but he had a brother called Francis Henry Winckler in England who died young and his mother was named Elizabeth. Do any of these names fit in with your research?
I wonder. It is something I shall look into.
Bye for now
a bientot
Kirk
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Hello Kirk,
Thanks for your answer.
It is true that Theophilus isn't a very common name and the coincidence puzzled me. I have checked my files : I have no Christian and no Francis Henry among the Winklers in India. So I think there is no connection....
All my best wishes for 2011.
Annick
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Hello Charles John Theophilus Wincklers daughter Charlotte Sarah married William Henry Harris my husbands great great grandad. I have no more information on Christian but if anyone is interested in Charlotte's family I have extensive history of them.
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I have a Christian Godfried Winckler born to Christian and Elizabeth Winckler in 1829 St Pancras He was baptised on 14th June 1829 and his father is listed as a piano forte maker. CJTW could well have been a cousin or perhaps a brother if it not for the fact that Christian and Eliza are noted as alive in the 1851 and 1861 census. Christian and Eliza had a daughter Elizabeth Lucy b 1826 which would suggest a connection to Lucy Free. It makes some sense to me that Christian and Lucy Free who married in 1793 were the parents of Christian who married Elizabeth Ashby and had at least 2 children Christian b 1829 and Elizabeth Lucy b 1826. Charles is their contemporary and may have well been a cousin as he was clearly to born out of wedlock. As these Wincklers come from the same area as CJTW St Pancras and given the link with piano making it would be unusual that there was not some family connection there.