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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: youngtug on Tuesday 10 February 09 21:57 GMT (UK)
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hi, i have aproblem. my gtgtgrandfather john wilson married mary ann chatfield 17th july 1876 at the reg. office st george. hanover square. on the marriage cert. mary does not have her parents named. the address given is the same for both john and mary and as john is not from london it could be a lodging house. the witnesses where ;-william waring dove and louisa alice dove. the problem is that i cannot find any of these three people in the censuses for 51-61-71-81
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What age was Mary Ann?
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Hi,
I wonder if this is your Mary Ann?
Births:
Mary Ann Dove Chatfield JunQ 1853 St Geo Han Sq 1a 179
(found on FreeBMD)
Nanny Jan
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mary ann was 22 on the marriage cert. which should make her birth date 1854+or-
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hi nanny jan, thanks, i didnot think of that [i looked for louisa chatfield. wrong way] john and mary gave one of their sons the middle name waring, sooo will try the census again.
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freebmd shows:
William Warin Dove, d. Mar 1879 quarter, Barnet, aged 58.
He may have originally been "William Warren".
1871:
RG10/1304 47/68 (Sunbury)
William W. Dove, 48, b. France (British Subject)
Frances, wife, 47,b. Remmington? (Kent written and crossed out, 'Surrey' inserted?)
In earlier censuses they have children - Isabel Fanny, Ellen Elizabeth, Louisa Julia. Quite a gap between Isabel and Ellen, though.
In 1881 Frances is widowed and living with Louisa, another daughter Marianne Rose, and a granddaughter, Frances Ethel M. Freeman.
(Isabel Fanny "Done" and James Freeman married in 1874.)
In 1871, Ellen, Louisa, and "Kate" (aged 8, might be the same as Marianne) are at a boarding school in Thames Ditton.
There are two children with middle name "Dove" last name Chatfield on freebmd, possibly sisters.
Ellen Norah Dove Chatfield, Sep 1851 (Westminster)
Mary Ann Dove Chatfield, Jun 1853 (St. George Han Sq)
Around this time William was in London and in fact in debtor's prison!
http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/issues/21319/pages/1422
A Louisa Alice Dove married in 1880 in Strand, but I can't work out who to or where she came from.
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hi jorose, looks promising, a lot of work probably. mary ann & john gave their last son the middle name waring. mary ann is on the 1881 censuc[mary ann wilson] and on the 1901 but she dissapears from the1891 census along with 2 children. all she has as place of birth is london. when john & mary ann got married the place they where living at was 23 clarendon street pimlico. could the louisa dove you found be louisa alice????must leave ....late ...thanks
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Their daughter Louisa I think was "Louise Julia" (b. 1858, m. 1881 after the census).
Interestingly, at 49 Clarendon Street in 1871 (listed as in St. Pancras?) was:
RG10/225 18/30
James Dove, 43, organ tuner and voicer, b. Paddington
Elizabeth, 43, b. Westminster
children b. St. Pancras:
Henry, 15
Charles, 11
Ann, 9
Sidney, 7
Willie, 6
Frank,3
John, 1
Elizabeth A. Sceales, lodger, 30, married, b. St. Pancras.
I think this man's name might be James Bricknell Dove, in case that rings any bells.
It would be best at this point I think to get the birth certificate of Mary Ann Dove Chatfield.
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hi jorose, thanks. i will go for her birth cert. but at the moment i am waiting for another cert. [for johns fathers marriage]the cost mounts up.
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hi. i was looking for army records when i saw the name main waring and i remembered my father and his parents talking about have relatives/ancestors called mainwaring [pronounced mannering]. just a further complication probably has they also said something about a tarten but i have come nowhere near scotland with my research.[ memory is a funny thing] youngtug.
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Hello couz, didnt realise i was going over old ground, hopefully a fresh pair of eyes and all that. I definitely reckon that the birth in St Georges is our gal!
Roofy
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Hi cousin, I think so as well.
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Islington St Mary baptisms
1847 Sep 19, Isabel Fanny, d/o William Warren & Frances DOVE, Providence Place, Builder, born 1847 Aug 21
1850 Jun 30, Mary Julia, d/o ditto, Milner Square, Builder, born 1850 Mar 22
1852 Dec 31, William Basil, s/o ditto, Studd Street, Builder, born 1852 Oct 24
1857 Aug 26, Ellen Elizabeth, d/o ditto, Mildmay Park, Builder, born 1857 May 12
1858 Nov 12, Louise Julia, d/o ditto, Mildmay Street, Builder, born 1858 Sep 20
William Warren DOVE married Frances DIXON at Holy Trinity Islington, 3 Nov 1846.
Ian C
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Thanks for the info Ian. Hopefully between Youngtug and myself, we can figure out this family mystery:) One of many I might add. The only Louisa I knew about was the one who was the witness at my gtgtgt grandfathers marriage cert and she calls herself Louisa Alice Dove [youngtug and i are second cousins hence the extra grt for my generation:)
Roofy
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The William Waring Dove in debtors prison is a concertina manufacterer. [1852] Although not the same trade and also it being waring, not warren or warin I wouldn't discount this family, if you notice there is a gap in the births from 1852 to 1857 [prison?] We just have to find a link. Very grateful for your help and anything further you find. Thankyou.
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William Warren DOVE was the son of William Spencer DOVE. He would appear to have had a brother Benjamin Dixon DOVE, who married Mary Ann DORE or DOVE at Hammersmith St Peter on 14 Oct 1852. Her father was William DORE/DOVE. Witnesses were William DOVE, Isabella Johnson DOVE, S Elizabeth DORE. Benjamin was also a builder, as was his father.
Isabella Johnson DOVE was a sister, father named as William Spencer DOVE when she married George WETHERED, in 1880.
There was another brother Henry Charles DOVE, also a builder, who married Agnes ?? in 1869, his father named as William Spenser DOVE.
Children for interest
Sunbury, Richmond upon Thames
1822 Oct 22, William Warren, s/o William & Ann Isabel Dickson DOVE, Sunbury, Carpenter
1824 Apr 18, Benjamin Dixon, s/o William Spencer & Ann Isabel Dixon DOVE, Thames Street, Carpenter
1826 Dec 25, John Johnson, s/o ditto, Thames Street, Carpenter
St Mary Islington
1828 Dec 25, Isabella Sarah, d/o ditto, Theberton St, Builder, born 1828 Jul 19
1831 Mar 13, Frederick John, s/o ditto, Rotherfield St, Builder, born 1830 Jun 23
1834 Dec 25, Louisa Sarah, d/o ditto, Trinidad Place, Builder, born 1833 Dec 21
Lambeth St Mary
1840 Dec 25, Henry Charles, s/o ditto, Milner Street, Builder, born 1840 Dec 9
William Spencer DOVE married Ann Isabel Dixon JOHNSON, 11 Jun 1821, St Sepulchre, Holborn
Ian C
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Thank you for the effort you are expending on this, the problem is that Mary Ann Chatfield did not have a father listed on her marriage cert to John Wilson so even if I get a birth cert for Mary Ann dove Chatfield I still won't be able to definitly connect to my Mary Ann. I was under the impression that no fathers name on the marriage cert, meant that they were an orphan or illegitimate. The fact that they[John and Mary] gave their youngest son the middle name Waring hopefully means some connection to William Waring Dove I just need some connection to either the Wilson,s or Chatfields. The only connection so far is Mary Ann Dove Chatfield. I will get her birth cert, but not yet [although she's driving me crazy] and will post the results. John.
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Just to keep you updated; I have found a will, from Mary Ann Dove Wilson. It is the right one because of the other person named and also the address. So, thankyou all and when I have the birth cert I will update again.
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I have just today received the birth cert, for Mary Ann Dove Chatfield. 18-may-1853. No father. :( Mother; Jane Chatfield. Residence; 63 south molton street. Registration district ; Saint George Hanover Square. county of Middlesex.
So, has expected no father. but mothers name may help to find them on the census. I may get the cert, for Ellen Norah Dove Chatfield sometime, but not just yet. Thanks for your interest. John.
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Was Mary also born at 63 South Molton? (should be an address for where she was born and an address for where the informant was living - presumably this was Jane).
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/ shows 63 South Molton street, in 1852, as the address of George Cheney, bronze and ormolu manufacturer - he is still there in 1861, and was unmarried (there is his housekeeper, her son, and some other apparently unrelated people staying there as well).
So potentially Jane was either working for or lodging with George Cheney when she had her daughter Mary. If she registered the birth herself then "Dove" is probably her way of indicating the father of her child.
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Hi, yes, Mary was born at 63 south molton st, and it was her mothers [Jane] residence. I agree that the inclusion of Dove in her name is an indication of the fathers name. [Also if the other Dove Chatfield girl has the same mother this would be more likely.] As I said at the start, the witnesses at Mary's wedding were ; William Waring Dove and Louisa Alice Dove. Of Mary's children there are of interest these four with these christian names ; Alice Jane. Marie Louisa. William Henry and Cyril Waring. The only William Waring Dove to be found was a organ maker of poland street, oxfords street. In 1852 he is in debtors prison. I am fairly certain that he is the probable father, but, I need some proof before I can say he definitely is and enter him in my tree.
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Looking again, there is a William Warin Dove death in 1879 and a William Warren Dove death in 1880 - both aged 58.
So now I am wondering again if William Warren b. France is the right man.
There is a 1860 marriage for a William Dove to Eleanora Lock; they had a child, Alice, who is with them in 1871 (aged 9). This William is a piano tuner in 1871, 49, b. Gt Baddow Essex - might fit better with the occupation of the William Waring Dove who was an organ maker?
So far I'm not having much luck finding them in 1861.
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Hi I agree that the William Waren Dove born france is probably not the one. William Warin looks a better bet, just need a connection. Have been looking for a coule of years now, slowly getting closer. Thanyou, John.
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An update, I looked on the 1851 census for Jane Chatfield and found her living at 20 Poland Street. Also at 20 Poland Street was William Dove. concertina maker, Born Great Baddow,essex,,, so jorose looks like you are right. I have looked for William on the 1851 before and not found him, but having Mary's mothers name it came straight up. William was in bankruptcy in 1852 in the London Gazette William Waring Dove ,late of 20 Poland Street.Oxford Street. Also there are two mentions of William Waring Dove in the concertina museum site, showing an example of his work.[with a label with address on]I think this just might be enough to prove a link. So thank you for your help, I will update if I find out any more. Must try and track Jane and her children now. John.
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This is an interesting item; http://www.concertinamuseum.com/CM00258.htm
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In case anyone is interested on the 1851 census William Dove gives his place of birth to be Great Baddow, Essex.
So it looks like Jorose got him..