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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: newburychap on Monday 02 February 09 15:34 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
A chap called David Lloyd has started an e-petition to ask the Prime Minister to allow full access to the England and Wales BMD registers from 1837 to 1908. This would end the need for £7 certificates.
Given the seeming collapse of the DOVE project to digitise these records I think this petition is worthy of massive support from family historians. So far 500 people have signed up - it needs thousands before it will be taken seriously.
To support this go to http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/OpenBMDrecords/ and sign up.
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I have just been told about this petition from another list, asking for open access to the registers of Births, Marriages and Deaths from 1837 to 1908. I do not recall having seen it here so apologies if I am duplicating!
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/OpenBMDrecords/
Moderator Comment: topics merged
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Hi Barry,
Thanks for putting that post up. I had heard of it but never had the opportunity to sign.
I think it would be a great help to genealogists to be able to get full access to the records (they are ours anyway) and avoid paying at least £7.00 a shot.
If the price was lowered to a couple of £s it would help to be able to print them online. They would probably make more money that way as people are more inclined to pay less and use the service more.
Let's hope something positive happens from it. There are only 615 signatures (616 with mine) and that doesn't seem very many to me. Hopefully more will sign up now you have posted this thread.
Best wishes,
Elizabeth
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Well the number of signatures has grown significantly in the last 10 minutes so there is a good chance that if we keep the subject appearing on the main board then many, many more will sign up.
Selina
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Just Signed it.
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Me too
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Me also
Cas
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Just signed
Pat
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Thats me signed as well
Gary
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I've signed.
Betty
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Me too.
I would just like to say it is really quick and easy, only takes a minute.
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This is doomed to failure.
There is a Government directive on Fees and Charges that requires that services like this charge a sum sufficient to recover the full cost of providing these services. The alternative is for them to be funded out of general taxation. Obviously the Government is not keen on adding to the burden of taxation if it can avoid it and full cost recovery of these "discretionary services" is an effective toll in this respect.
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So lets vote the government out and put someone in who will listen to us. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
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So lets vote the government out and put someone in who will listen to us. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Oh yeah people are going to vote out this, or any, Government so that your hobby can be financed by the public purse. I don't think so ................
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So we just give up then.
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Nothing ventured nothing gained! I've signed it.
J
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This is doomed to failure.
There is a Government directive on Fees and Charges that requires that services like this charge a sum sufficient to recover the full cost of providing these services. The alternative is for them to be funded out of general taxation. Obviously the Government is not keen on adding to the burden of taxation if it can avoid it and full cost recovery of these "discretionary services" is an effective toll in this respect.
Absolutely true, the cost of a certificate extends beyong simply copying the contents of the register, for a start the storage and archiving of the millions of records has a cost. It isn't that long ago that certificates were considerably more than £7.
I find it quite amusing to see comments against the expense of certificates but see people who willingly purchase and spend large sums of money on credits to view the 1911 census.
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It's still probably true, as Liz said, that if they charged less for certificates, people would buy more of them and spend more in total.
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Absolutely true, the cost of a certificate extends beyong simply copying the contents of the register, for a start the storage and archiving of the millions of records has a cost. It isn't that long ago that certificates were considerably more than £7.
I find it quite amusing to see comments against the expense of certificates but see people who willingly purchase and spend large sums of money on credits to view the 1911 census.
If everyone stopped ordering certificates today would the cost of archiving change. I think not. Information is gathered by an act of Parliament, we the public pay for it wether we order a certificate or not.
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I disagree, reducing the price doesn't mean people will purchase more and ultimately spend more.
If an item in a shop is offered at a 50% discount and you only want one item does the discount make you buy three and ultimately spend more money?
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If an item in a shop is offered at a 50% discount and you only want one item does the discount make you buy three and ultimately spend more money?
Depends whether you are a shopaholic or not ;D
But with regard to certificates, you are only ever going to buy a certain amount anyway..
Ireland has a good offer though, if you want a certified copy, it's €6.00, but if you just want a photocopy, they only charge you €4.00...still cheaper than England... :-\
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Of course it's doomed to failure - how else is gormless Gordon going to pay off the national debt ? ::)
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I also have another hobby apart from family history, restoring vintage trucks. Is anyone going to support my plea for free parts and fuel for my current project?
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All signed up. (fingers crossed)
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"BMD registers from 1837 to 1908"
Am i missing something ???
Freebmd has images online for the following:
Births 1837-1945
Marriages 1837-1938
Deaths 1837-1935
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"BMD registers from 1837 to 1908"
Am i missing something ???
Freebmd has images online for the following:
Births 1837-1945
Marriages 1837-1938
Deaths 1837-1935
I believe what they are asking for is free access to the actual registers not just the indexes that appear on FreeBMD and the like.
They are wasting their time, but if it keeps them happy so be it just don't hold your breath ...................
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The problem with the petition is that it asks for what we already have.
We already have full and open access, not only to BMDs over one hundred years old but to virtually all BMDs (stillbirths excepted), via the indexes.
They already are accessible with a small fee to cover the cost of copying.
The law does not allow for uncertified copies and the present government is not competent enough to make the relevant changes.
They tried that back in 2002 with the White Paper "Civil Registration: Delivering Vital Change" but due to incompetence and unlawful practice failed to pass the required legislation.
I would suggest the better way forward is to help the efforts of those who are trying to make Dove, Eagle and Magpie finally fly as that would produce far greater returns.
Cheers
Guy
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Ahh right,
I seem to have a recollection of this subject a number of years ago. I might be wrong, but i think Guy may have given the correct answer at the time.
Personally, I prefer a copy from the parish register, all free to access, and a small price for a copy with the original handwriting.
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I disagree, reducing the price doesn't mean people will purchase more and ultimately spend more.
If an item in a shop is offered at a 50% discount and you only want one item does the discount make you buy three and ultimately spend more money?
But with regard to certificates, you are only ever going to buy a certain amount anyway..
What I was getting at, is that we buy the certificates that we need to take us a step further. But there may be others that aren't strictly necessary, but that we would like to see to satisfy curiosity, or fill in the picture.
I'm sure few of us can afford to buy all the certs we might be interested in.
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I disagree, reducing the price doesn't mean people will purchase more and ultimately spend more.
If an item in a shop is offered at a 50% discount and you only want one item does the discount make you buy three and ultimately spend more money?
Probably worth discussing the concept with folks who research in Scotland. I have both English and Scottish ancestors and would have 20 to 1 Scottish certificates images compared to English certificates - they cost 1.20 each - I buy many more at that price. I have certs for 3rd cousins, ggg aunts and all - very hard to resist at the price.
As Guy mentions - for family history uncertified images are all that is needed. The time and effort for "certification" is a waste of their time and my money
Trish
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The changes that were proposed in Registration Review of 2002 would have been enacted under the provisions of the Regulatory Reform Act 2001. If this worked, it would have been a neat way of making the appropriate changes without an Act of Parliament.
There were some good proposals in the Review, but also some pretty bad ones, so it would have been a mixed blessing at best. It failed at the Parliamentary scrutiny stage, for a number of reasons. So we were back to square one, not for the first time - earlier attempts to change the law had always run out of parliamentary time.
The real sticking point is the wording in the 1836 Act that stipulates that information may only be given in the form of a certified copy. Fortunately for Scotland, the 1854 Act only mentions 'extracts'. That is one of the reasons Scotland has been able to set up a service like ScotlandsPeople, while England and Wales are stuck with the unwieldy business of having to produce certified copies, at about twice the cost of simple photocopies.
Certification is expensive because of the special paper used, the fact that every certificate blank has to be numbered and accounted for, the secure conditions under which stocks of them need to be kept, and the extra staff time involved in administering the system.
Realistically, more complete and detailed indexing as per Dove etc will be a help, if and when we see it, combined with the various UKBMD projects. But this will be some time coming, as the GRO have yet to make an announcment about how the remainder of the project will be progressed, if at all.
Mean_genie
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Thanks mean_genie - very well explained. I was slightly abrupt & should have mentioned it is not only England/Wales who have to provide certified copies. I can get English certificates faster and cheaper than most in my own country (Australia). We do have one state that provides online images, and two providing transcripts - at a price about the same as an English certificate. I have many more Scottish certificates than Australian ones as well :)
Trish
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While there is a difference in the Scotland and England/Wales system due to laws passed in the early/mid 1800s, this is now the early 2000s surely other laws have changed in that time? Why can't this law? Maybe if enough people were bothered then our law could be bought inline with Scotland's regarding BMDs?
Or maybe to allow the registers to be transcribed by BrightSolid or Ancestry or FreeBMD or some other group, thus taking the strain of providing the service off the government?
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"Given the seeming collapse of the DOVE project to digitise these records"
I am very saddened to hear that the project to digitalize birth marriage and death certificates is having problems, I for one was very excited at the prospect, I was hoping that the cost would be greatly reduced and waiting for certificates to arrive would become a thing of the past.
Is there any way that we can support this or any future project. I would happily make a donation to the project as I'm sure many other family historians would - after all it is us who would benefit from the scheme in the long run.
Sue
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If I could obtain English certificate images for the same price as the Scottish ones then I would buy very many more, all those that I would like but do not essentially need.
So a change in the wording of the legislation would make that possible.
It may be a waste of time, most petitions are, but then it is my choice how I waste my time.
It number of signatories is growing well.
Selina
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It may be a waste of time, most petitions are, but then it is my choice how I waste my time.
It number of signatories is growing well.
Selina
Granted it is your choice how you waste your time as you put it but consider this:
Each time a flawed attempt is rejected due to a poorly constructed argument the task of changing the minds of objectors gets that bit more complicated and difficult to achieve.
I wish the petition well but have no doubt of the outcome.
Cheers
Guy
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I have little doubt of the outcome either. But this attempt, flawed or otherwise, is there now so I will support it and will support any other better one.
Selina
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I disagree, reducing the price doesn't mean people will purchase more and ultimately spend more.
If an item in a shop is offered at a 50% discount and you only want one item does the discount make you buy three and ultimately spend more money?
Probably worth discussing the concept with folks who research in Scotland. I have both English and Scottish ancestors and would have 20 to 1 Scottish certificates images compared to English certificates - they cost 1.20 each - I buy many more at that price. I have certs for 3rd cousins, ggg aunts and all - very hard to resist at the price.
That's because the English subsidise the Scots to the tune of £1500 per head ::)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580786/Questions-over-andpound1,500-tax-subsidy-for-Scots.html
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I disagree, reducing the price doesn't mean people will purchase more and ultimately spend more.
If an item in a shop is offered at a 50% discount and you only want one item does the discount make you buy three and ultimately spend more money?
Probably worth discussing the concept with folks who research in Scotland. I have both English and Scottish ancestors and would have 20 to 1 Scottish certificates images compared to English certificates - they cost 1.20 each - I buy many more at that price. I have certs for 3rd cousins, ggg aunts and all - very hard to resist at the price.
As Guy mentions - for family history uncertified images are all that is needed. The time and effort for "certification" is a waste of their time and my money
Trish
I dont mind paying for these certificates. But i think that if they where priced around £1.20 - £2.00 i would be very happy with that. I could buy loads then. £7 is quite steep, which has led me onto trying to get things free by looking at parish records.
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How much work do you think is involved in producing the certificate ? Would you do it for that ? Don't forget that the £7 includes postage, which is pretty good for this country, and an absolute bargain for those outside the UK. Can someone remind me - how much do the Americans and Australians charge for their certificates, and do they have a 5 day turnaround ?
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£3 of the £7 is for the search of the records.
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How much work do you think is involved in producing the certificate ? Would you do it for that ? Don't forget that the £7 includes postage, which is pretty good for this country, and an absolute bargain for those outside the UK. Can someone remind me - how much do the Americans and Australians charge for their certificates, and do they have a 5 day turnaround ?
No-one is suggesting that all governments do not like to charge family history adicts as much as the passing traffic will bear. However, it is a government law (in all the countries you mention) that births deaths and marriages be registered, so I see no reason why the production of an additional record of this, has to cover the actual cost of the registration. That will happen (and did happen - regardless of how many copies of the certificate have or will be produced.)
In most instances all that is required for our purposes is a photocopy/transcript or scan of the image. Why the law has to treat this as a certified, important and expensive event is beyond me.
In Australia, at least the certificate purchased - also for an exhorbitant amount - contains 10 times the information as is given on an English certificate - for a death, probably 20 times as much - so perhaps it would suit your "customer pays" approach that Australian certificates cost 10 or 20 times more than English ones.
In Australia in many states, it is law that the passage of a will through the courts of the land, requires a death certificate to be included (more money to the BDM registry). The advantage of this to the family historian - for the cost of a photocopy, one can obtain from the archives that have the will, an uncertified death certificate. If one has the time to transcribe it, or the archive has scanning equipment available, the $ cost is zero.
The idea of the petition is to allow access to the registers for other than "certified" information. It may not succeed, but I hope it helps the move towards a change in the law that specifies all copies MUST be certified.
Trish
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The point is that a certificate with the registrar's seal is proof that the piece of paper is a faithful reproduction of what is contained in the registry. Take away the certification, and all you have is a piece of paper which is proof of nothing. The petition won't succeed, because it would require a change in the law which would be vigourously contested in legal circles. There's already enough worthless bits of paper circulating in the UK in the form of forged documents, without paving the way for more.
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How much work do you think is involved in producing the certificate ? Would you do it for that ? Don't forget that the £7 includes postage, which is pretty good for this country, and an absolute bargain for those outside the UK. Can someone remind me - how much do the Americans and Australians charge for their certificates, and do they have a 5 day turnaround ?
What. Scan, print, put in an envelope and then send....
Sounds like a hard day work to me..... ::)
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How much work do you think is involved in producing the certificate ? Would you do it for that ? Don't forget that the £7 includes postage, which is pretty good for this country, and an absolute bargain for those outside the UK. Can someone remind me - how much do the Americans and Australians charge for their certificates, and do they have a 5 day turnaround ?
What. Scan, print, put in an envelope and then send....
Sounds like a hard day work to me..... ::)
No, Locate, Scan, print, put in an envelope and then send....
And if you work for £7 a day, you should seek a better job ! ;D
Seriously though, I doubt whether the hourly pay for clerical assistants in the NA are much less than £11 an hour, and to that you have to add the costs of storing the records and the upkeep of the machines that produce the printed copy. Sure, I'd like to pay £2 for a certificate, but I'm a business owner and a realist.
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How much work do you think is involved in producing the certificate ? Would you do it for that ? Don't forget that the £7 includes postage, which is pretty good for this country, and an absolute bargain for those outside the UK. Can someone remind me - how much do the Americans and Australians charge for their certificates, and do they have a 5 day turnaround ?
What. Scan, print, put in an envelope and then send....
Sounds like a hard day work to me..... ::)
No, Locate, Scan, print, put in an envelope and then send....
And if you work for £7 a day, you should seek a better job ! ;D
Seriously though, I doubt whether the hourly pay for clerical assistants in the NA are much less than £11 an hour, and to that you have to add the costs of storing the records and the upkeep of the machines that produce the printed copy. Sure, I'd like to pay £2 for a certificate, but I'm a business owner and a realist.
Well good for you!
unlike you, the every day person can't afford £7 a time for certificates. I think its a fair comment for people to want them cheaper.
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If every time somebody bought a certificate, they added the details as a notem on Free BMD, I'm sure far fewer certificates would need to be purchased.
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That's because the English subsidise the Scots to the tune of £1500 per head ::)
'What's this got to do with BMD's and Genealogy' and here was me thinking this was a friendly site :( :(
Terry
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It's up to 1,684 now. Lots of people obviously don't think it's a waste of time.
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That's because the English subsidise the Scots to the tune of £1500 per head ::)
'What's this got to do with BMD's and Genealogy' and here was me thinking this was a friendly site :( :(
Terry
It was relevant to the discussion, and there was nothing unfriendly about it. I was merely repeating something which has been discussed at length by Members of Parliament for quite a few years now.
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It's up to 1,684 now. Lots of people obviously don't think it's a waste of time.
Perhaps seeing the response to a very similar type of petition which in fact did not require a change of law or substantial sums of money to be invested will focus people's minds
http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page14568
Cheers
Guy
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That's because the English subsidise the Scots to the tune of £1500 per head ::)
'What's this got to do with BMD's and Genealogy' and here was me thinking this was a friendly site :( :(
Terry
It was relevant to the discussion, and there was nothing unfriendly about it. I was merely repeating something which has been discussed at length by Members of Parliament for quite a few years now.
I fail to see the relevance between 'discussing the concept with folks who research in Scotland' on the cost of BMD's and access to records re genealogy and a political article in the Telegraph from April 2008 re the fact that the English 'subsidise' Scotland to the tune of £1500 per head. I don't know why you felt the need to show the Telegraph article in this context but I'll leave it there, it's not the place for English/Scottish politics.
Terry
Apologies to others I didn’t mean to highjack this thread and I agree that in England you should have full access to the records.
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It's up to 1,684 now. Lots of people obviously don't think it's a waste of time.
Perhaps seeing the response to a very similar type of petition which in fact did not require a change of law or substantial sums of money to be invested will focus people's minds
http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page14568
Cheers
Guy
Fair enough but as others have said, nothing ventured nothing gained. Also it's good to let the government know what we think, even if it doesn't achieve our objective.
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Tsu, good idea! we should all do that. :)
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I started adding the details of mine to FreeBMD when it was mentioned in another post but then forgot about it. I'll continue now!
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Surely, the requests that have the full gro reference supplied, which due to the indexes I expect many genealogy request do have, then the "locate" part shouldn't be too difficult?
I'd quite happily locate, scan, print, put in envelope, send for £7-£11 per hour, sounds like a cushty job to me!
I think some are missing the point to be honest.
The cost of storing records is going to be there whether some one doing family history comes along and orders a cert or not, so that point is rather moot.
Many people doing family history would be happy to see a scan of the register, as on SP, for a nominal fee instead of paying £7 for a "certified copy".
Sometimes I just fail to understand why people get annoyed at others for wanting to make life easier.
So what if previous attemtps have failed - does failure mean we should all just give up and not bother trying again? I think not. Time to look positive, the more times something is asked for the more it is likely that a request will be considered.
If only one customer asks a store to stock a product it probably won't happen. If a dozen people ask once it might not happen, but if several thousand people ask many times there is a good chance they will be heard.
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Surely, the requests that have the full gro reference supplied, which due to the indexes I expect many genealogy request do have, then the "locate" part shouldn't be too difficult?
I'd quite happily locate, scan, print, put in envelope, send for £7-£11 per hour, sounds like a cushty job to me!
I think some are missing the point to be honest.
Would you make a profit doing it ? Or break even, even ? That's the point.
Sometimes I just fail to understand why people get annoyed at others for wanting to make life easier.
It's already dead easy - just fill in the form and pay £7. What could be easier than that ? You are asking for it to be cheaper, which isn't the same thing at all. Changing the wording on the document won't make it any cheaper to produce. There are those of us who consider it to be good value at £7 - heck, driving once across central London will cost you more than that ! ::) :)
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Make a PROFIT?
Its a government department Who should get the profit. Its taxpayers money to start with.
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Would you make a profit doing it ? Or break even, even ? That's the point.
I'd be making more money than I have in any job that I have had.
It's already dead easy - just fill in the form and pay £7. What could be easier than that ? You are asking for it to be cheaper, which isn't the same thing at all. Changing the wording on the document won't make it any cheaper to produce. There are those of us who consider it to be good value at £7 - heck, driving once across central London will cost you more than that ! ::) :)
No, it would be easier as well. Instead of filling in the form, waiting for several days to see what info is required and possibly finding it to not be the person I had hoped, I would be able to search, view and either print or close and repeat with another possible - that's easier as well as cheaper.
£7 is actually quite a bit of money for a certificate that may or may not answer your questions. Not everyone has cash to throw around. We certainly don't these days, we're on one income due to my health problems, problems that also usually prevent me from being able to actually GO to records offices and the like, so I have no option but to buy certificates that I require, and thus have to choose them very carefully, whereas on SP I am able to view many more for the same cost.
You don't have to agree Nick, but do take a moment to look at the point from more than one angle. I appreciate that storage, employment of person to do job, materials and whatnot come into the cost. But that is the cost for a "certified copy", many FH would be happy with the same as what is available on SP (regarding bmd's). Not certified doesn't make it worthless in research, because you can still have the option of purchasing a "certified copy" should you require it.
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Make a PROFIT?
Its a government department Who should get the profit. Its taxpayers money to start with.
I think most people would expect government departments to be at least self-sustaining within their budget. I think that there would be an outcry in this country if it came to light that the National Archives were being subsidised with taxpaayers' money, to help those interested in genealogy on either a professional or an amateur level. I realise that we are in the minority, and it's majority rule that we live under.
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I think most people would expect government departments to be at least self-sustaining within their budget. I think that there would be an outcry in this country if it came to light that the National Archives were being subsidised with taxpaayers' money, to help those interested in genealogy on either a professional or an amateur level. I realise that we are in the minority, and it's majority rule that we live under.
Wait, the national archives storage of certificates, census, etc is not purely for genealogists.
That storage is records of everyone born, married, died or resident (at 10 year intervals) in the UK. That to me is a majority, not a minority. It's not only the info for genealogists that is being stored, it's not being stored for "us", it's being stored for everyone. Just because we are the one's making use of the facility doesn't mean it is being done for us. I have no objections to paying a nominal fee to see what is in the register and then print it myself, even if that means it's not on official certified paper.
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No, it would be easier as well. Instead of filling in the form, waiting for several days to see what info is required and possibly finding it to not be the person I had hoped, I would be able to search, view and either print or close and repeat with another possible - that's easier as well as cheaper.
Kia, what you are proposing would require that the registers are digitised and indexed, and I'm fairly sure they are not*. After seeing the costs of digitising the 1911 census, how would you propose financing the digitisation and indexing of the BMD registers ?
*I stand to be corrected, and if I'm wrong then that would change my stance on the issue.
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Self sustaining yes profit no.
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Government depts that charge are not allowed to make a "profit", they are required to cover the costs of delivering the service. Anyway, if they did it would be the taxpayer who would benefit.
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The original topic asked that those who are interested sign a petition.
Since it is related to family history it will be allowed to stay. You may choose not to sign - or to sign.
No further discussion will be permitted however.
Arranroots ;)
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HI EVERYONE
There is a petition to 10 Downing Street to permit open access to the registers of Births, Marriages and Deaths from 1837 to 1908. This one act would enable all family historians and genealogists to find the right family certificate without having to purchase a copy certificate which turns out to be incorrect.
I hope you can support this as it will make family history just that little bit easier, after all these registrations are over 100 years old.
THANKS
JIM
Moderator Comment: topics merged
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Discussed and locked in another thread hun ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,357888.0.html topics merged