RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: liscoole on Monday 09 February 09 15:45 GMT (UK)
-
Hi
I am trying to find the birth record of my great great grandmother Jane McCullough born in Armagh in the late 1860's. Her family were methodists, I believe from Markethill, where her father Alexander was a farmer. She married my great great grandfather John Thomas Hall in 1899 in Belfast at Crumlin Road Methodist Church.
Does anyone know of any resources for Armagh apart from Armagh Ancestry as I cant afford to spend £5 on looking up one record!
thanks very much
Liscoole
-
Record Type Civil Birth
Date of Birth 3 Sep 1870
Name Margaret Jane MCCULLOUGH
Gender F
Fathers Name Alexander MCCULLOUGH
Mothers Forenames Isabella
Mothers Maiden Name FARRELL
Civil District Newry
Sub District Tanderagee
County Armagh
the nearest i could find.
regards mary.
-
Hi,
Like Maryderry I am having trouble finding this birth in Armagh. I can find three Jane McCulloughs in Co.Antrim and one in Co Down in 1867/1868
Regards
-
Thank you both for your efforts- much appreciated!!! :)
Maybe she was born in Belfast- though she said on the census she was born in Armagh- maybe she wasnt sure and just put that down because her family were from there. In fact, I had alwas assumed she was born in Belfast in 1877 to Alexander McCullough and Maria Senior, but the facts she put down on the census make me think I made a mistake- she said she was 43 years old in the 1911 census making her born in 1868 or thereabouts.
Or- could it be that she didnt know her real date or place of birth???? Is that at all possible?
I have found lots of McCullough's in the Markethill Presbyterian records online.
Another question- would it be possible for some members of an extended family to be methodist and some to be presbyterian/church of ireland?
thank you so much for your help
Liscoole
-
IGI has a birth for Jane McCullough born 17 July 1877 Belfast (parents Alexander McCullough & Maria Senior) and also Charles born 3 May 1880 Belfast.
-
Liscoole,
Yes it is very possible for an extended family to profess different religions. For Protestants it was usual to get married in the bride's church and then for the family to follow the husband's religion. In the case of Protestant/Roman Catholic marriages, which were reasonably common before 1908, I think it was the case that daughters followed the mother's religion and boys the father. In 1908 a Papal instruction, Ne Temere, was issued where the Catholic church insisted that all children of a Catholic/Protestant marriage should be raised in the Catholic faith. It is unclear to me what effect this had on mixed marriages.
Regards
-
Hi there ~
Just thought I'd throw in that I have family from Markethill, Co. Armagh with the name "McCalla", also "McCulla" ... specifically, Samuel, Eliza Jane Palmer McCalla, Anna Jane McCalla. Samuel & Eliza Jane had two sons, Samuel & Robert. Samuel kept McCalla while Robert went by McCall. Both brothers emigrated to America and settled first in Ohio, then Indiana. My line goes through Robert McCall.
Just a little FYI. Good luck!
-
I would just add to this, that I am also descended from a "McCullagh" family of Armagh, who emigrated to Australia in 1863. An Alexander McCullagh, wife Anna (nee Munro), and five children under 10!
They came from "Denihora" or "Derrahorra" (somewhat illegible), which I am told is now part of Mullaghbrack Parish, Markethill.
They were also buried in protestant cemeteries in Australia, e.g. CofE.
In the Queensland immigration shipping records, they are listed as McCulloch.
Fiona, Brisbane.
-
Fiona,
Welcome to Rootschat. A couple of bits of information, some of which you may already have. The Townland is probably DERRYDORRAGH which is in the parish of EGLISH in the district of Armagh Town. Also
18 Nov 1851 Alexander McCulla married Anne Munro in Warrenpoint Church of Ireland, Newry Co.Down.
Regards
-
Hi there,
Here is another record which may be worth investigating.....
MCCALLY JANE ELIZA 1869 ALEXANDER Down
all avenues are worth the search, I have found numerous different spellings for the same surname. In one baptismal record I found three different spellings for the same family!!
Good luck,
Aljepeka
-
Fiona,
Welcome to Rootschat. A couple of bits of information, some of which you may already have. The Townland is probably DERRYDORRAGH which is in the parish of EGLISH in the district of Armagh Town. Also
18 Nov 1851 Alexander McCulla married Anne Munro in Warrenpoint Church of Ireland, Newry Co.Down.
Regards
Thanks for that 'kingskerswell'.
The 1851 marriage is indeed that of my 2G grandparents. The Church of Ireland & Newry are new info for me, so thank you. I already had the date, the variant spelling of the names, & that it was Warrenpoint, Co Down.
Re the Denihora/Derry Horra reference (which basically is illegible). I was told by someone on another forum that I was probably after Dinnahorra. They said "Nowadays it is called Dinnahorra, and is a part of Mullaghbrack parish, which is just north of Markethill in Co Armagh." To back that possibility up, a marriage notice in the newspaper in 1875, referred to my 3G GF as the late Alexander McCullagh of (illegilbe denihora or whatever), Markethill, Co Armagh. So the fact Markethill was specified led me to believe that Dinnahorra is probably correct. However, I shall have to now investigate where Derrydorra & EGLISH are in relation to Markethill!!
Thank you for the further info.
Regards, Fiona
-
Hi Fiona
Welcome to rootschat and thanks for your post!
My ancestor was also Alexander McCullough, married to Elizabeth Patterson- their daughter Jane was my great grandmother. I eventually found her baptism record in the Markethill Presbyterian Church records which are online. Although the family were methodists, apparently it was common for them to baptize their children in the nearby church as methodists did not have their own churches until much later.
http://www.markethillpresbyterian.co.uk/2nd_baptisms_1861_1919.htm
She was baptised Jane Elizabeth McCulla and her date of birth was 1 Nov 1868. However on her marriage certificate she was Jane McCullough.
I have researched this family in quite a lot of detail and have details of McCulla/ McCullough gravestone inscriptions from the area.
Like you said, I think the family that we are connected to lived in Dinnahorra or variations of that name.
Jane's father Alexander was born on 31 August 1830, the son of Alexander McCulloch/ McCulla. His siblings that i have found are:
Samuel James- 21/7/1822
Amelia- 17/2/1824
Agnes- 25/10/1825
Thomas West-16/10/1827
William Douglas- 9/7/1832
John- 24/4/1835
Robert- 25/8/1837
David George- 12/2/1840
27/4/1843- Sarah Jane
Their father Alexander was born 1798. From records I believe this Alexander had siblings Archibald, Samuel and John and probably more.
This is the inscription on his gravestone in Markethill 2nd Presbyterian Church:
In memory of Alex McCullagh, of Denahora, who died 21st May 1872 aged 74 years Also his wife Sarah West, who died 17th June 1877 aged 78 years Also their son William Douglas McCullagh, who died 4th April 1901 aged 69 years Also their grandchildren Emma Jeanie McCullagh, who died 10th Novr 1918 and George Alexander McCullagh, who died 8th Novr 1919 and his wife Margaret E , who died July 21st 1925
From the info below, our Alexanders seem too close together in age to be from the same immediate family, but I hope we can somehow work out the link?
Best wishes
Liscoole
-
Hi Liscoole
Well this is most interesting. I too stumbled across the Markethill Presbyterian church records online only yesterday. When I saw "Thomas West McCullough" son of Alexander McCullough my ears pricked up because my 3G GP's according to the family are "Alexander McCullagh" & "Sarah West".
Now, my 2G GF "Alexander McCullagh" (born bet 1830-1831) was married to "Anne/Anna Munro". They emigrated to Australia in 1863. They already had 5 children when they left (John, David, Maria, Samuel, Joseph, but not sure if John & Samuel came too or not). In Australia they had 2 more, Elizabeth (1867) & Thomas (1869). Maria is my great grandmother & in Australia at least, they were McCullagh.
So this is where it starts to conflict, because this also appears to be your Alexander (31/8/1830), BUT your Jane was born in 1868, and baptised in Markethill, which my info would say they left behind in 1863! Also my Alexander McCullagh (b1830-1831) was married to Anne/Anna Munro, not Elizabeth Patterson. So whilst your G GM Jane and my G GM Maria would appear to be sisters if you forget about the fact we have different mothers married to possibly the same Alexander! But there has to be a very close link somewhere.
Whilst I don't have any records to back it up, I assume my link to Sarah West & Alexander McCullagh has been verified by a family cousin or such who had access to the death certificates or some such. We have always been told it to be so, and this was long before the internet gave us access to so much info!!!
Curious and curiouser. Look fw to hearing back!
Regards, Fiona (ps, where do you hail from Liscoole)?
I also have about 10 variations on the spelling of the location. Deraharra, Derahara, Derrahara, Denahorra, Denaharra, Dennyhara, Dinnahara, Dinnahorra, Derrihora, & perhaps even Derrydorragh!
-
Hi again Liscoole
Just to add to my last post.
The Queensland death registrations online lists 'my' Alexander McCullagh's parents as Alexander McCullagh and Sarah West. So clearly, someone back in 1891 including the informant of the death had this information & provided it.
I also have in my notes that this Alexander was also known as John (I have him as Alexander John McCullagh). Makes sense I spose given his father was also Alexander. Where on earth I found that originally I don't know (and why didn't I write it down?).
-
Hi Fiona!
lol I know what you mean about not writing things down! When i was researching this lot, I found the marriage info for my Alexander- he married Elizabeth Patterson in Redrock Presbyterian Church in Armagh in 1862... but did i write it down? No! And if I did, I cannot find it anywhere!
Now I need the precise details ie date to be able to get a transcription of the cert.
This info would confirm the father of my Alexander. It's quite possible that I just assumed the Alexander born in 1798 to be my Alexanders father. Looking through the records now I can also see an Alexander McCullough born 4th Feb 1827 with a father John McCullough, who could well be mine.
I think you have proved beyond doubt that your Alexander is indeed the rightful claimant to this family lol... I just have to find mine now! :)
Liscoole
-
another quick update Fiona!
I have since managed to get the details of my Alexander's marriage- 30th January 1862 to Elizabeth Patterson in Kingsmill Presbyterian Church, Newry.
Thankfully i am able to get a transcription of the marriage via Newry and Mourne District Council Registrar, so hopefully that will clarify the father's name when it arrives back.
best wishes
Liscoole
-
Hi Liscoole
So it looks perhaps that the list of siblings you noted & the headstone inscription are my lot! Did you obtain the headstone inscriptions by actually visiting the graves in person? That is just amazing info for our family to have access to. I must say a big thank you.
Will be interesting to see who is noted on your Jane's certificate as her father.
Have you established that she was in fact even born in Armagh after all? Or is this still up in the air?
Also the fellow who posted a while back with rellos who headed to America, may also be linked up to these guys. If at least one went to Australia, why wouldn't some of the brothers or cousins head to America as well?
Happy to go offline to continue with the details of these McCullagh's & as for Denaharra, I think I now have 12 variations on that spelling, mostly from the markethill presbyterian records!
-
Hi Fiona
The headstone inscription was from History from Headstones, a site which has a database of headstone inscriptions in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately I didnt visit in person. But yes, the Alexander i mentioned on that headstone is yours!
It's actually my Alexander's marriage cert that im getting the verification of, if I can get the details of who his father is, I can hopefully see if there's a connection to your Alexander...it may be that they are cousins!
Oh and I have found records for even older McCulloughs in Markethill, an Alexander McCullagh from Cladymore born 1743, died 20th December 1790 aged 47 years. Apparently there is a very old will in the Public Records office for him. Also in Kilcluney Churchyard there is a Robert McCullagh of Cladymore who died 20 April 1830 aged 83!
Im pretty sure the Jane Elizabeth McCullough in the 2nd Markethill Presbyterian baptism records is my great grandmother. She was my grandfather's mother and although he is no longer alive, my granny is and she has confirmed that is where Jane was from. She can even remember what she looked like as she met her in person several times when she was alive. (Jane died in 1927, which shows how old my granny is lol).
So I will send you a personal message via rootschat when I get the verification back..and we can take it from there! It's great fun trying to unravel these mysteries isnt it :)
-
oh wow. all very very interesting. i hope you have recorded in detail your granny's stories & decription for identikit purposes. how lovely to have such an opportunity! also on that markethill presb. website is a list of abouy 200 fellows (which you have no doubt seen) who signed a petition in 1793, and there is a "John McCoullagh" on there as a signatory. He had a bet each way in the spelling camp. What's a bet though, he is another relation. Look fw to hearing from you when you receive the transcript! regards, fiona
-
Hi again Liscoole
You have probably seen these entries in the Markethill Presbyterian records online? Children of Elizabeth Patterson and Alexander McCulla. Also some other variations on Elizabeth's name a possibility?
George Caul McCulla Alex McCulla Farmer Mahanevara Elizabeth Patterson Mahanavara 19 January 1863
Mark McCulla Alex McCulla Farmer Mahanevara Elizabeth Patterson Mahanavara 24 October 1864
James Alexander McCulla Alex McCulla Farmer Mahanevara Elizabeth Patterson Mahanavara 17 March 1866
Jane Elizabeth McCulla Alex McCulla Farmer Mahanevara Elizabeth Patterson Mahanavara 1 November 1868
John McCullagh Alex McCullagh Farmer Maghanavary Eliza Patterson Maghanavary 1 March 1872
Hugh Crozier McCullagh Alex McCullagh Farmer Enagh Elizabeth Porter Enagh 7 February 1878
William James McCullagh Alex McCullagh Farmer Enagh Eliza Porter Enagh 15 September 1881
-
Hi Fiona
Yes I did see those, and they do belong to my Alexander and Elizabeth. I think Elizabeth Porter is a different person, so it is a possibility that either Alexander remarried or it is a different Alexander (lol not impossible, as we have discovered!).
I am still waiting on the transcript, didnt arrive today and wont tomorrow as tomorrow is St Patrick's day (yay!), so fingers crossed for Thursday.
Of course I have no proof that the below Alexander and Elizabeth were my gg grandparents, but the record below for Jane Elizabeth McCulla is the only one i have found that fits the age, location and fathers name for my Jane McCullough.
Anyway, they were certainly a very large family in the area! I will know more hopefully by Thursday!
Best wishes
Liscoole
-
Hi Fiona
I got the trancript today and of course, it throws up more questions than it answers... Alexander McCullagh's father is given as George McCullagh, his age 29, occupation farmer and his residence Tullywiney... no George McCullagh's mentioned in the Markethill records so I am back to square one again!
best wishes
Liscoole
-
Hi Liscoole.
I just found this site, I would hazard a guess that tulleywiney and tullywinny are one and the same?
http://www.igp-web.com/armagh/townlands/Tullywinny.htm
Maybe this might give you some leads to start with??
Will have a snoop around and see what I can find also.
Regards, Fiona
-
Hi again
McCullagh Geo (jnr) of Tullywinny gets a mention on this site. Think the date is approx 1891? Would have to be some connection to this George you've found - a son perhaps?
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/PT1901N.htm
Tullywinny is apparently in Loughgilly Parish, Co Armagh
http://www.sagp.org/townlandatoz.php
From the Irish Times I can see that Tullywinny adjoins Mullaghbrack Parish (which is where the Alexander McCullagh connection hails from).
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/townlands/index.cfm?fuseaction=TownlandsInCivil&civilparishid=391&civilparish=Loughgilly&citycounty=Armagh
-
oops should add one more thing I've found. in the 1911 irish census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?surname=mccullagh&firstname=&county=Armagh&townland=tullywinny&ded=&age=&sex=&search=Search
There are 2 McCullagh's living in Tullywinny. David aged 34, and brother Thomas aged 21. Presbyterians.
Both shown as single & as farmers. Have to be descendents of this George of yours. Grandsons?
ok over and out for a bit!
-
Hi Fiona
Thanks so much for your work!
Yes I think you are on the right track! In addition to your excellent finds, I also found a will on the PRONI site dated 31/3/1893- of Alexander McCullough of Tullymacan, one of the executors is a George McCullough of Tullywinney..
It's definetely a jigsaw, all these pieces are somehow connected, I just have to work out how! I will have a good mull over it all and let you know...
thanks again
Liscoole
-
ok well then to add to that as well!!!
http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/armagh/loughgilly.htm
Griffiths valuation - George McCullagh, Tullywinny
-
Hi Fiona
Today the wills came online and I have the image of the will now!! This is definetly the right guy as he mentions my great grandmother and her sister in the will. He left her some money and an 8 day clock, whatever that is. Great stuff. Have a look yourself and you might find one of yours. Good luck! :D
-
An eight-day clock is one which would go for 8 days so it only had to be wound up once a week.
http://www.ehow.com/how_2079524_wind-8day-clock.html
-
Hi Fiona
Today the wills came online and I have the image of the will now!! This is definetly the right guy as he mentions my great grandmother and her sister in the will. He left her some money and an 8 day clock, whatever that is. Great stuff. Have a look yourself and you might find one of yours. Good luck! :D
Hi Liscoole
Sorry I'm being a bit vague. Where do I go to find the online wills? Glad to hear you found your guys!
Regards, Fiona
-
See here for PRONI Will search- enjoy :)
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx