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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: liverbirds on Monday 09 February 09 09:02 GMT (UK)
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Hi , I wonder can some one help please. My Dad was Patrick Mc Cann b. 18th June 1904 the youngest child of the couple named above. He had a brother named James and a sister Mary and I have the family on the 1911 census for 15 Lower Dominick St, Dublin were
Thomas is age 39 yrs b. Dublin City Bricklayer
Frances is age 38 yrs b. Dublin City
James is age 12 yrs b. Dublin
Mary is age 8 yrs b. Dublin
Patrick is age 7 yrs b .Dublin
Why would there be a difference shown between them for the birth area? On searching this census I realise there was St Mary's national school about 5 doors from their home would any one know any thing about the school, i.e age groups etc, wonder was it the school used by my Dad at that age?
The only certificate I have for my Dad is his Baptism at the Pro-Cathedral on 1st July 1904, his sponser was Ann Lalor. A search that I did personally in Dublin shows no birth registration for him, the people in the office did two search's and they said this was a common occurrance for the period he was born in and a search of marriage index did not come up with his parents marriage and the huge problem there is that his Mum shows as a Nee' Mc Cann on his Baptism certificate, i.e Mc Cann marrying a Mc Cann.
I believe she died when my Dad was about 11 yrs and his sister went in to a convent dont know were, but she is said to have died at a young age through coming off a swing while she was there.
I spoke at one point to my cousin who was born in Dublin but she knew as little as I did on the family. Until the 1901 census comes out I will probably know nothing else unless some one can point me in the right direction, all help would be greatly appreciated Thank you, Bye L.B :)
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The 1911 census gives the mother's name as Fanny (not Frances) and states she's been married for 15 years which should pinpoint the marriage date to search for. It's possible that the surname was a different spelling on the certificates which is why you haven't been able to find births, etc.
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I've noticed the same detail about the Dublin / Dublin City place of birth for some of my ancestors. Birth certs for them have shown that they were all born in what would now be Dublin City.
It's possible that the children born in a slightly different part of Dublin that true 'Dub' parents didn't consider Dublin City.
I have a case where the family lived in South County Dublin but the children were all born on the North Circular Road - so they showed up in Dublin City registration district of Dublin North.
Shane
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Re: differentiation between city and county - the city was much smaller then.
I have ancestors who came from Ballsbridge and it was considered county in 1911 - just a 20 minute walk from the city centre and very much part of the city today.
If anything, it's helpful because you know to look at parishes outside the city centre.
School was compulsory up to the age of 14 then.
Have you tried searching for the births of the other children? The Family search pilot site should help you narrow it down...
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=2;t=searchable;c=1408347
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Thank you all for your replies and interest to the posting about my grandparents. I have just looked at Family Search but there are no records for the family. I went over to Dublin a year ago to search records and came up with nothing as I said and then was told at the office that it was more important to baptize the babies rather than civil registration as the people of the city did not want the numbers of children to be knowledge to the authorities because of the unrest of the times that they were going through.
I was considering asking City churches if they had entries of marriages that had possibly never been through civil registration for similar reasons, I suppose it is possible.
As the information on the census was written by the house holder I would think that Fanny was the name my grandmother was called by her husband, but she certainly shows as Frances on my Dad's baptism certificate, my Dad had got this as a copy in 1922 so I suppose thinking about it, it was used as a form of identification. In hindsight I suppose I thought Mc Cann marrying a Mc Cann would jump out of the index at me. You have all given me a lot to mull over, thanks once again L.B
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Hmm, there was no special unrest in the period 1895 - 1911. The King even visited in 1904 and the monarchy was popular with the ordinary people. There were always groups who wanted to agitate but nothing particularly bad happened around the time these children were born. In 1913, there were a lot of strike problems and then came the war and the Rising in 1916.
It's very unlikely that all the children at this late stage were unregistered. It was against the law not register births within 3 months and there was a fine. This did lead to people pretending their 3 month old baby was only 2 months but according to research done by my college lecturer, by the late 1890s, we had almost total coverage with the civil registration for births.
City churches are almost always going to ask for a letter of permission to view the records (in person) from the Bishop of the relevant diocese. The national library has parish registers but they only go to 1880 for St. Andrew's baptisms.
Sorry I can't be more helpful!
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Would agree with Perpeller that it's unlikely the marriage and all the births would not have been registered in that period which is why I'm wonderinf if they are indexed under a different spelling of McCann or different surname.
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Hi Liverbirds
Just a consideration you might give when looking for your family, aside from the many variations a name can have (Being a McNamara, i know this ONLY too well) is that children were obliged to be registered, but nor necessarily named and hence the number of records that will state MALE / FEMALE as the given name.
To illustrate the point, you Da is born circa 1903/4 - so the following could apply :
Name: Male M'Cann
Registration district: Dublin North
Record type: BIRTHS
Registration date - quarter and year: Jan - Mar 1903
Volume: 2
Page: 492
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes 1845-1958
Again, James born circa 1899 could be:
Name: Male M'cann
Registration district: Dublin North
Record type: BIRTHS
Registration date - quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1899
Volume: 2
Page: 504
and to follow the logic on for Mary :
Name: Female M'Cann
Registration district: Dublin North
Record type: BIRTHS
Registration date - quarter and year: Jan - Mar 1903
Volume: 2
Page: 483
I am not suggesting these are the records, but consider that fines were handed out during this period for unregistered births, it is an avenue worth considering. Not that is the samples above all births are for North Dublin, does that match the Baptism cert?
I have found two family members this way, and whilst it could prove expensive to do endless random searches, i put a note on my fax request to the GRO and advised that if the parents names were not X or Y, then not to copy, and as a result i am generally charged 2euros each which is not prohibitive in itself.
Good luck with your search
Marc
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Thank you all for the last 3 answers, you have given me lot's of advice and plenty to think on, I did think when I was given the reason of registration that it sounded a strange thing to say but did not query it further thinking they had looked twice and that was it, also not realising that fines were due for non registration.
So I take it now as I cant see the indexes for myself that I should write to Joyce House with the info as I have it i.e name, birth date , parents names and state that I only want the cert if it has the two parents names on, which is similar to applying in England and then you only pay a search fee, having not seen an Irish certificate would you get an address on it? Sorry for these extra questions but you certainly have given me a lift with your knowledge and the interest you have shown, thanks once more. Liverbirds :)
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Birth certificates will list child's place of birth (and usually residence of parents if different but many babies were born at home).
Marriage certificates will list residences of bride and groom at the time of their marriage which may not be where tehy were born or where their families lived.
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The place to apply is not Joyce House (the record room has moved to another location in Dublin) but to the GRO HQ in Roscommon. http://www.groireland.ie/
Click on apply for cert.
Note that the form is designed for getting the cert of living people. Just put down all the information you do have and a page/volume number anywhere you can find room. Don't worry about things like PPS number or exact date of birth.
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Consider this
Thomas McCann married Fanny Carolan, Dublin North 19th April 1896.
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/d2e9a17000798
James 28 Dec 1898
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a05fdd0135128
Mary Dec 1900
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/a6ba281428024
Terence ? 17th June 1904
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/d2de671067504
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Hi folks, I think I have finally cracked the family questions on my Mc Cann family that I posed on the website so long ago and things have started to match up. My uncle James (Jamie ) as he was known is correct , Mary who was my aunt (dad's sister ) died at a convent at Mountjoy as a teenager and matches my dad's story of her death, even her death registration shows it, she was taken there after her mothers death and records I have found in census match regarding my dad Patrick. It was suggested on the civil records for births he was recorded as Terence Barber Mc Cann born to Fanny or Francis Mc Cann formerly Carolan , everything matches with just a days difference on the day of my dad's birthday he always said it was 18th June 1904 and this record says 17th June 1904, I think there is a possibility that Fanny had no name for him at the birth She never named her other children at birth either but church records online through the Irish genealogy website show their names when baptised. My dad's still isn't shown as church records for St Mary's pro cathedral are not complete online and when I went to the cathedral a number of years ago I was told they couldn't check personally.
Going on Civil and census records as suggested in postings I have found links that have got back three more generations and I now feel I am getting somewhere at last, there is till a long way to go, but my thanks first of all goes to the members who helped me with suggestions , you are all appreciated so much. And for any one who is struggling try using the Irish genealogy website it's very informative with 1901 and 1911 census plus civil records and church records but not all church records complete.
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LINKS-
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And for any one who is struggling try using the Irish genealogy website it's very informative with 1901 and 1911 census plus civil records and church records but not all church records complete.
1901 and 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
BMD's
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/news/154-update-to-the-civil-records-3
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Hello folks can any one offer any other direction to take on Fanny (Frances ) Mc Cann please. She was my Dad's mum and although I have made strides with the Mc Canns she is still as puzzling as ever . She married Thomas Mc Cann in 1896 First off I found she had a baby daughter named Mary who passed away after 3 days and as far as I know my dad knew nothing of this birth, later on they had another daughter also named Mary a year before my dad's birth, I have found her death at the convent at Mountjoy in 1916 and this part of the story I knew. She was taken there after Fanny herself died at a young age leaving her three children, James, Mary and Patrick.
The Terence that Dathai suggested is indeed my Dad the details match on his parents but he is shown as Terence Barber Mc Cann , who knows why and he always said his birthday was the 18th of June 1904, I realise that he obviously applied for a copy of his baptism certificate from the pro cathedral as he could never get a birth certificate as identity proof because of the name, but why his name change? Unless it's mistake of the registrar. It also crossed my mind he could have been a twin, but can't see any record.
Now Fanny herself has created the biggest mystery , when she married Thomas she named her father as James Carolan and a line runs through his occupation which has made me wonder did this mean deceased. On checking all the James Carolans the most likely one is James who lived at Stoney Butter and Blackhall place , leaving his large family he passed away at the age of 55 yrs and was a blacksmith, but no where on any record is Fanny shown as a daughter , the only thing making me lean towards him which I know is wrong is the fact his daughter Ann married a William Lawlor and this is the name of the female sponsor on my dad's baptism certificate, and Ann's marriage certificate shows the same line running through her fathers occupation, does this really mean deceased ? With Fanny Carolan as a witness at their wedding in 1891 and for Ann's children the sponsors includes Frances or Fanny Carolan all before the marriage date for Fanny,
The names Lawlor and Byrne seem attached to the Carolans and Mc Canns, at the time of Fanny losing their first daughter Mary They were living at Hogans Avenue very close to more of the Lawlor family
All of this info is a lot to digest but intriguing as most history is , I have used so many combinations of the names to tie into James Caloran but still the only clue is on her marriage certificate of April 1896. I have even asked myself could she be an illegitimate child of his that was drawn into the family, strange thought I know to think of your gran but weirder things have happened in family's . I also know this is a lot to ask anyone to digest but if I have missed anything that anyone can see I would be pleased to hear from you. I have to say that the records on the Irish genealogy site is great asset to have to hand so well done to them. Cheers L.B
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Not sure if this is same family as Fanny but will give you another avenue to explore.
1890 Joseph O'Byrne married Catherine Carolan
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1890/10708/5903644.pdf
Her father James Carolan listed as Excise Officer and a witness was William Lawlor.
They had a daughter Frances born 1899 (finding her first is what lead me to check for parents' marriage)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02020/1775219.pdf
O'Byrne family in 1901 (no daughter Frances listed)-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Inns_Quay/Henrietta_Street/1280344/
In 1911 daughter Frances is with her parents-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_West/Ashworth_Place/64439/
Closest birth I could find for Catherine Carolan so far has a father James as a clerk-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03574/2317186.pdf
Not enough evidence to say there's a connection but possibly worth keeping in mind.
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Thank you so much for your reply on Fanny Carolan and parents its so appreciated . I will certainly look into this line it's always great to have someone else's input and ideas. From the bits my dad said about her that he could remember at his young age she should have had a longer life as despite the times they lived in it seems she was a happy soul and well loved, this alone makes me want to discover more about her . L.B