RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: Daisy Loo on Sunday 08 February 09 20:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi there
Can anyone point me in the direction of any available history, books and/or websites on the garrison town of Clonmel? Period I am looking for would be 1840-1880...roughly.
Can't seem to find much when I google.
Thanks
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Sorry Daisy, I can't help you but I have been trying to research the same area and some births and marriage only From 1820-1842 so I will be interested if you get any other reply's
Crystal
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Two books on Clonmel - Burke WP History of Clonmel published 1907 reprint 1983 but it seems to be out of print now. Also Clonmel 1840-1900 Anatomy of an Irish Town by Sean O Donnell which also seems to be out of print. May be got in a library or used bookshop.
annclare
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Thanks annclare...
I'll check with my library :)
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Have managed to get both books through www.borrowbooks.ie , so am delighted...can't wait for them to come now :)
Edited to add: Spoke far too soon, although library ordered them, and said they had them, they never came!
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I live near Clonmel, if that's any help.
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oooooh...do you!!!!
You might regret telling me that! How exciting...would you be able to help me at all?
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If I can, I will.
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Is there any chance that you go to St Peters & St Pauls, and look up baptisms for me?
Also, if you could find out what church was known as "Scot's Church" St Mary's, Clonmel....would that have been the Protestant Church?
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Is there any chance that you go to St Peters & St Pauls, and look up baptisms for me?
I tried that myself and they refused. Most churches will direct you to the dioscesan heritage centre. In this case in Waterford. But send me the names and dates and I'll try.
Also, if you could find out what church was known as "Scot's Church" St Mary's, Clonmel....would that have been the Protestant Church?
There's a St. Mary's Catholic Church and a St. Mary's Church of Ireland. The Scot's Church was a Methodist Church that was located in Duncan St as far as I can remember. I'll try and confirm that tonight.
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Also, if you could find out what church was known as "Scot's Church" St Mary's, Clonmel....would that have been the Protestant Church?
Update. The Scot's Church was a Unitarian Church in Anglesey St built in 1838. The building is still standing. It's completely different from the Protestant, St. Mary's.
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A Methodist Church? okay...would that have been around in 1846? That's where, according to the IGI, my GGG-Grandfather married my GGG-Grandmother.
As for the records. I have been in touch with St Peter's and St Pauls, by phone and email. She told me, that they still hold the original records there. The query would go to the "Sacristan"? is that the right name?, and he would read/collect the info. Unfortunately, this was several weeks ago.
If I didn't have 2 small nippers, I'd come down there myself. I'm living in Connemara...so frustrating to be so close, yet so far!!
If you pm me your email, I can send you the copies of the transcribed baptisms that I have...I wanted to know if there was any further info listed on the entries, and I had also asked, if they could check further back, as the first baptism I have was 1855, yet their first child was born in 1849. I have one birth/baptism still unaccounted for as well.
Thank you so much for offering though...very grateful. :)
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Also, if you could find out what church was known as "Scot's Church" St Mary's, Clonmel....would that have been the Protestant Church?
Update. The Scot's Church was a Unitarian Church in Anglesey St built in 1838. The building is still standing. It's completely different from the Protestant, St. Mary's.
Wow, that's very interesting...what's Unitarian?? And the building is still standing. Hmm...d'ye have a camera????
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The Scots Church was actually Presbyterian not Methodist or Unitarian- although all are Protestant denominations.
A History of Congregations in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland 1610-1982: CLONMEL PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH
Mr. John Dill ordained 1836... services held in the Courthouse...soon a handsome church was built... congregation transferred from Dublin to Cork Presbytery in 1843... "minister of Clonmel was a greatly honoured and much used minister. When he died on 5 Aug.1868 he shops of the town were closed partially from Wednesday to Saturday. The magistrates adjourned Petty Sessions sittings for one week and the funeral in the Scot's Church was crowded with Roman Catholics as well as Protestants."
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Unitarianism is a bit confusing. The short version is they are christians who don't believe in the concept of the Holy Trinity or the divinity of Jesus.
I'm a bit confused though as to why Unitarians would have their children baptised in a Catholic Church. I'd imagine that without their converting to Catholicism and re-marrying in a Catholic Ceremony that they wouldn't have been allowed baptise their children as Catholics.
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Presbyterian Churches in Ireland, as well as other countries are often known as the Scot's Church as a reference to their Scottish origins. You will see from excerpts about Clonmel Presbyterian Church that it was certainly know by this name and it is doubtful that a Unitarian Church would have been called Scot's.
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Excellent! Aghadowey, you're a great help to me today :) I have been trying to find history on this Church for a while now. That's fantastic. Thanks. Where did you get that info from, no amount of googling came up with anything for me :(
Oh my! Have just checked the marriage cert I have for them...and it was signed by John Dill. This is brilliant!
Would you be able to tell me what this bit says:
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The Scots Church was actually Presbyterian not Methodist or Unitarian- although all are Protestant denominations....
Presbyterian sounds a bit more likely alright. The aforementioned Sean O'Donnell says that it was Unitarian in his book.
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Unitarianism is a bit confusing. The short version is they are christians who don't believe in the concept of the Holy Trinity or the divinity of Jesus.
I'm a bit confused though as to why Unitarians would have their children baptised in a Catholic Church. I'd imagine that without their converting to Catholicism and re-marrying in a Catholic Ceremony that they wouldn't have been allowed baptise their children as Catholics.
When I spoke to the lady at St Peter's & St Pauls, I told her that the parents had married in a Protestant Church, yet had baptised all the kids in a Catholic Church....she said, didn't matter, they would take them all! The father was Scottish, the mother was Irish, I believe from Clonmel....perhaps the mother was well known by the Priest at St P & St P?
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"in Ireland" with "by License" inserted between "in" and "Ireland."
If you read my post with the excerpt the name of the book was given there.
A History of Congregations in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland 1610-1982:
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"in Ireland" with "by License" inserted between "in" and "Ireland."
If you read my post with the excerpt the name of the book was given there.
A History of Congregations in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland 1610-1982:
Sorry :( Thanks...I'll see if I can get a copy from the library. Why would they have needed a license? Does that mean they just didn't do the banns?
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Just a thought on the 'double' baptism you mention. Although Catholic Emancipation was introduced in 1829 the effects of the Penal Laws dragged on throughout the 19th century. It took the Cathoilc Church intil the mid 1840's to rebuild and recover.
During the Penal days many Catholics (predominantly middle-class) converted to the Established Church, mainly for economic reasons. Prior to 1829 when there was no Catholic Church BMD's were carried out only in Established Churches.
Is it possible your ancestors converted to/from Catholicism and felt a need to have a Catholic baptism later in life?
Dara.
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My feeling is this...
Isabella was their first child, and she was born where ever, and baptised in a Protestant Church, in Woolwich.
The mother was Irish (Bridget Cleary) and I assume Catholic. the father was Scottish, and Presbyterian.
At some point, they went back to Ireland...(after 1850, but before 1855). Where they went on to have more children...one in 1855, baptised in RC church, then another in 1857, also baptised in an RC church. Three months after the second child is baptised, Isabella is as well. Maybe as a young girl, she asked to be abptised in the same church...maybe the irish side of the family was putting pressure on the mother...maybe the Church requested she be baptised, as she was later to be "Sponsor" to one of her younger sisters.
I'm my feelings/thoughts way out?
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If I have the dates correct Isabella would have been about 8 when sh was baptised in the Catholic Church.
Most likely reason I can think of was to allow her make her First Communion.
Dara.
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You have your dates right, and yes, that does seem like a good enough reason, especially if she was at a RC school (likely) and wanted to be like all the other little girls.
Thanks Dara :)
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You're welcome.
And by the way, your decision to check the history of Clonmel around the time frame you are interested in is an excellent one. It really helps to understand the people you are researching if you know what was happening in their local area as well as the country in general.
As far as I know there are no records kept of Communion or Confirmation but there are some old school registers in existance. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I can point you in the right direction.
Good luck with your search.
Dara.
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To be honest, getting a list of names, and seeing how far back I can go, doesn't really interest me...if I can find out background history, and how they were living etc etc, it makes things a lot more real. So I suppose, my main interest would lie from 1800-1900, when there were census records, and spanning/building out from there.
This particular branch of my family interests me a lot more, as it is my only Irish connection, the family are very difficult to find, but when I do find them, they prove very intriguing!
I hadn't thought of school registers...what a great idea...I have seen some excerpts for schools in Ballynakill, Galway, and they show occupation of father and such...thanks for that idea too :)
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Daisy Loo,
My ggggrandad emigrated to Kildare from Edinburgh in 1851 in response to an ad from the Duke of Leinster for Scots settlers to settle and his farms in the Kildare, Carlow and possibly Clonmel area also. They set up a Scots Church in Athy, Kildare in 1856. It is possible that your ancestor might have responded to the same ad. I have copies of the ad and also you could look up my posts in the Kildare section of this site.
If you think that this might be of interest pm me and I will forward any info that might be of interest.
RoryT
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Rory...thanks, and I will keep you in mind. I am not sure what bought Alexander to Clonmel, but at the moment, think it was the Royal Artillery, as he signed up for the RA in Sheffield.
I don't really know how I would prove that connection...but what an interesting piece of info for you to have!
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Rory...thanks, and I will keep you in mind. I am not sure what bought Alexander to Clonmel, but at the moment, think it was the Royal Artillery, as he signed up for the RA in Sheffield.
There was an artillery barracks in Clonmel from 1805 to 1922. From Jan 1861 to Jan 1865 3 Battery, 9 Brigade, Royal Field Artillery was stationed there. I don't have any earlier units.
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Okay, well, I haven't yet figured out exactly what he was doing there...I have a thread going on the military board, but I need to go to TNA, to look up more papers. Alexander was disharged from the 9th Batallion, RA in 1850. His daughter that was born in 1849, was registered as a regimental Birth, (baptised in woolwich) and her cert shows it was the Royal Horse Artillery, 9th Batallion. (he was a gunner & driver)
However, as a pensioner he was living in the barracks in Clonmel, for a fact, in 1864, as another daughter's civil birth shows that as his address.
Got a bid of annoying news today...I can't get my hands on a copy of Clonmel 1840-1900 Anatomy of an Irish Town by Sean O Donnell from the library. They say it's not available :(
I wonder if I can get my hands on it another way :-\
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;) I have been following this thread with great interest as I am trying to trace the marriage of my 3x Great Grandparents and the births of their first three children in Ireland.
I too like to collect all the social history that I can and I am wondering if the Barracks at Clonmel holds the answer.
I am sorry to butt in here, but any help would be great,
The marriage was recorded in the military records of the 77th Reg of Foot for Paris William Augustus Bradshawe
1822 - Rank of Ensign (formally Cadet) 26 December 1822
1825 - Rank of Lieutenant 24 February 1825
1830 Marriage - 12 May 1830, Fethard, Diosese of Cashel and Emly, Munster Province, Ireland (age 24 years) to Isabella Kernahan (believed to have been born in Lisburn, Belfast but no proof)
I have been unable to find out any more about this marriage or find any record of it.
The same with the first three children
1. Anne Bradshawe was born in ? Ireland on 3rd December 1828 and was baptised in Weybridge Surrey England in 1837 with her sister Isabella (No.3) Listing the two parents above and confirming birth details.
2. Charlotte Maria Bradshawe born abt 1830/31 in Clonmel, Ireland she then disappears until 1851 when she marry's in Catsfield, Battle Sussex England - I have never been able to locate her at the time of her sisters baptisms and wonder why she was not also baptised (maybe this had already taken place in Ireland?) No records found of the birth.
3. Isabella Bradshawe was born Born 17th August 1831 and was baptised in Weybridge Surrey England in 1837 with her sister Anne (No.1) Listing the two parents above and confirming birth details.
Just hoping on the off chance someone may be able to throw some light on this family?
Not living in Ireland I have no idea how far Fethard is from Clonmel that may be a start.
Living in hope,
Crystal :D
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Hi Crystal :)
Whenever I have looked up Barracks at Clonmel, Fethard has come up as well. They are not very far apart at all, and there were Barracks at Fethard too, but I don't know from what date.
The only way you would find a record for the marriage, is by finding the church record, as any kind of civil records didn't start until 1845 (for protestant marriages) and 1864 (for catholic marriages)
Have you seen this website? http://ifhf.brsgenealogy.com/search.php?filename=db_QUIS
I have another link somewhere on Tipperary, but can't find it at the moment, when I do< I'll post it. Also you seem to know quite a bit about Paris William Augustus Bradshawe...do you have his military records?
Daisy Loo
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Here's another link:
http://fethard.com/
and a sub from the above:
http://fethard.com/build/Barracks.html
https://www.fethard.com/nationalist/2005/20050122.html
And just in case you haven't already:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethard,_County_Tipperary
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Thanks for those links Daisy,
I will have a look later.
I viewed the only part of his military history that I could find at the National Archives 2 years ago but for some reason they only went up to just after his marriage in Ireland.
I know from other research (Army lists etc.) that he stayed with the 77th (East Middlesex) regiment of Foot becoming Adjutant and later Major by which time he was on half pay and unattached, by 1881 he was a retired Colonel of the Army and a Military Knight of Windsor but I have fond no military records for any of this time.
I know from records of his other children's births that he spent time in the West Indies as well but cannot find the records, he appears on a census in 1870 in the US and he died in Malta so he certainly got around!
regards Crystal :D
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wow, he certainly did! Have you posted on the military boards at all, to see if you can get any more info on records?
Good luck, though, and if I come across anything else, i will certainly pass it on to you :)
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;) Thanks Daisy, I did post quite a while ago now but maybe I should dig the post back out.
If I come across anything for you I will let you know, also if I manage a trip to TNA at any time I will contact you so I may do a look up.
cheers
Crystal :D
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I know some time has passed I don't have the bradshaw's birthday's, but I believe they have a brother called thomas Christie who was born on 11 Sept 1838 in London. Also I believe that Anne married Dr Robert Butterfield Cumming in 1850.
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Sorry to jump in on this thread but.............
Hi Sante
Yes indeed the details you post are correct, I cannot PM you as you do not have enough posts
- My GG Grandfather was Thomas Christie Bradshaw.
I am curious to know if you have more details? especially regarding his mother.
Regards Crystal :D
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Have you seen this website? http://ifhf.brsgenealogy.com/search.php?filename=db_QUIS
Daisy Loo
Thank you so much for this, Daisy Loo. I have just come in on this thread and did not know about that website. Tonight I have just found my gtgtgrandmother's christening on it, though unfortunately not her parents' marriage, births or deaths. I have been searching for these people for eight years now. Now at least I have discovered her mother's maiden name. :)
Although the site is pay-per-view, 5euros does not sound too exorbitant. When I visited the Tipperary Family History Centre and the Brian Boru Centre in person in 2001, I was quoted a sum of 20 euros per search of the closely guarded database. It seems someone in Ireland has realised they will have to drop their prices a bit if they want to make money out of family history.
I also looked at the Waterford Library site you recommended on another thread, and found the same family's details on the Clonmel Griffiths Valuation - which, for some reason seems to count as Co. Waterford - so Rootschat is very much in my good books at the moment.
Thank you again. I'm feeling quite pleased this evening :D
Best wishes,
Edwina
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That's really good Edwina! I have come to a bit of a dead end myself, with my Clonmel...hopefully one day, I too will discover an additional piece of onfo that will kick start things again.
Rootschat is good like that...certainly helped me no end :)
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Hi...I'm John and I'm interested in getting the birth record of my Grandma and to possibly find relatives in Ireland. She was born Helen or Ellen Sullivan in Clonmel sometime about 1880. She immigrated to the USA...New York when she was a little girl...
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Hi John Welcome to Rootschat.
You might want to try this site: http://www.rootsireland.ie/
Do you have her marriage certificate? Does it name her father, and his occupation? That would help, when looking for a baptism.
I wish you much luck. Sadly, I didn't get any further back with my Irish born ancestor....but I haven't given up hope yet that one day....
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:) Hello Joe, I just had a notification that someone had posted to this thread.
Have you tried the site Daisy Loo recommended? It has a very large number of records of all kinds. If you know her name and place of birth, that is probably enough to get you going. Searching is free, but it costs to view the exact transcription.
http://www.rootsireland.ie/
The Irish National Archives also have some databases relevant to family history:
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/index.html
I also found my great-great grandmother's death certificate by searching the General Records Office of Ireland website:
http://www.groireland.ie/
Civil registration began later in Ireland than in what was then the rest of UK, so that is why I was only able to catch a death certificate, but, if you are looking for someone born in the 1870s / 1880s, you might well be able to get a birth certificate, marriage of parents, birth of parents... etc etc .... Well, who knows, you might...?
You might also get somewhere with the Tipperary and Waterford pages of this site:
http://www.cmcrp.net/index.php
Perhaps you already know about these resources already, but good luck, anyway!
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Thanks for the suggestions ...I will try them....regards....John
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"The History of Clonmel" is now available (text only) as a google book.
http://www.archive.org/stream/historyclonmel00burkgoog/historyclonmel00burkgoog_djvu.txt
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Would anyone be willing to do a look up for me in St.Peters & St.Pauls Clonmel for about 1904 please.
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I don't think anyone has direct access to the parish records of St Peter's & St Pauls (Oh, that someone did! I wish!)
The only way I found mine was to look on the Irish Roots site here: http://www.rootsireland.ie/
I'm not sure what date they go up to though. The other option, is contact St Peters & St Paul's directly.
http://www.parishpeterandpaul.net/
I do hope one day, to visit Clonmel, and try and get a look at these records myself, but could be a while!
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Thanks anyway. If anyone comes across a birth for Michael John (Joseph) Leonard born 1st May 1904 in Clonmel, fathers name John a farmer) you will have my undying gratitude.
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Looking quickly on the Irish Roots site...
The only Leonard that comes up for Co. Tipperary is John Leonard (father John), civil birth 1900, and baptism 1900.
To view these records, is €5 - you would get the name of the mother.
Another option is to apply to GRO for a birth certificate?
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The records on RootsIreland only cover baptisms and marriages up to about 1900. For later details the BMD Index and GRO are your best options.
Shane
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Thank you for your help.
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Hi to Crystalight.
I am also gg granddaughter of Thomas Christie Bradshawe and Isabella Kernahan and puzzled by all the mysteries surrounding their family. If you could clarify anything you have found out I would appreciate it.
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Hi Questel
Just to say nothing much more is confirmed about Isabella Bradshawe nee Kernahan, I can find no record of her prior to her marriage to Paris William Augustus Bradshawe in Ireland.
I have sent you a PM
Crystal :D