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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: warboys on Sunday 08 February 09 13:55 GMT (UK)
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My great grandfather Andrew Morris Carly was born at Whithorn, Wigtownshire in 1863, and he was the illegitimate child of Sarah Carly. We have been unsuccessful at finding any information on Sarah and hope someone can help us.
What we do know about Sarah is based on the information that we have on Andrew.
At Andrew’s Marriage in Wigtown in 1889 his mother was given as Sarah Ferguson.
At Andrew’s death at Dryfesdale, Dumfries in 1935 his mother was given as Susan Carly.
The only other clue we have is in the 1851 census there was a Sarah Carlie age 12 at Rattan Row, Whithorn but no mention of any parents.
We cannot find anything about her birth, death or any marriages.
If anyone can supply any information it would be much appreciated.
Thanks
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Who was the informant on Andrew's death certificate? They may not have known his mother & this might explain the different christian name.Was his mother noted as deceased? What was the address on Andrew's birth certificate?Was he ever living with relatives in any of the censuses? His mother may have married a Ferguson after Andrew's birth.Who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate?Sometimes the witnesses are family members,perhaps siblings.The answers to these questions may give us a clue!Regards,
flst
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Thanks for the questions, I can supply most of the data you requested.
1. The informant on Andrew Carly’s death certificate was J Kirkpatrick, son in law, so yes he could have been mistaken on Andrew’s mother’s name. Andrew’s mother was deceased at this time.
2. The address on Andrew Carly’s birth certificate was just Whithorn, no more details were given.
3. We cannot find Andrew Carly on any censuses, the only census with that name is the 1891 census with an Andrew Carly in Dumbarton but he is the wrong age and it seems a bit far north.
4. Andrew Morris Carly married Margaret McKelvie Blain on the 6th June 1889 at Borrowmoss, Wigtown. They both lived at Glasserton and the witnesses were Wm James Wallace and Jessie McCreadie
5. Sarah Carly marriage to Ferguson, yes we agree this seems a good possibility but we cant find the marriage.
Hope this helps.
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Hi Warboys and flst
This looks like Andrew and new family in 1891:
Andrew McKerlie 27, Farm Servt, b. Whithorn
Margaret Blain 24, b. Whithorn
Andrew McKerlie 1, b. Wigtown
Address: Glenturk Cothouse, Wigtown
Monica :)
Added: Also the family in 1901:
Andrew McCarlie 38, Ploughman, b. Whithorn
Margret McCarlie 34, , b. Whithorn
Andrew McCarlie 11, b. Wigtown
Robert McCarlie 9, b. Wigtown
Jeanie McCarlie 2, b. Wigtown
Address: Knockencun Cot House, Kirkinner
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Thanks for the info, just another spelling to add to the list !
Andrew Morris Carly somewhere changed his name to McCarlie and that is on his headstone although his death certificate is different.
His son Andrew was called Carlie on his birth certificate but he also became a McCarlie later on.
Andrew had a brother Robert born 1891 at Wigtown who was called McCarlie on his birth certificate.
Cheers
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I think it is a sign of the times. A number of surnames varied with/without the Mc's - doesn't help when searching does it!
I think I might have found Andrew in 1871 with likely maternal grandmother. Address looks promising given where you found that possible entry for Sarah in 1861. Age is showing on the transcript as 1, maybe the original shows 7:
Martha McKerlie 42, Washwoman, b. Whithorn
Janet McKerlie 22, daughter, Glapaton (?spl), Wigtownshire
Agnes Allison 12, granddaughter, b. Whithorn
Andrew McKerlie 1 , grandson, b. Whithorn
Address: Ratton Row, Whithorn
Monica
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That 1851 entry that you found for Sarah Carlie in Rattan Row, she shows as visitor in that household. Her family were nearby I think, with what we now know:
Dorothy Carley 66, Parish Relief, b. Whithorn
Martha Must (Carley) 33, ag. lab., b. Whithorn
Janet McCarley 4, granddaughter, b. Whithorn
Samuel Wallace 25, son in law, ag. lab., b. Ireland
Janet Wallace (Carley) 24, daughter b. Glassertown, Wigtown
Address: Rattan Row, whithorn
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Warboys
Not sure about things now :-\ The Andrew we have pre that 1891 census where we are certain, still shows as born c. 1870 on the 1881 census:
Martha Mc Karlie 70, charwoman, b. Whithorn
Andrew Mc Karlie 11, grandson, b. Whithorn
Address: Rattan Row, Whithorn
Can't see anything else though ???
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Yep, ignore the pre 1891 stuff, back to scratch on the early entries:
ANDREW MCKERLIE Birth on 27 AUG 1869 in Whithorn - Mother: JANET MCKERLIE
:'( Can't see much else though which is a pity - however at least you have him from 1891 ;)
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Well done Monica,you 've certainly been busy.The "mc" got me thinking so I went on freecen & leaving the surname blank,keyed in Sarah in Wigtownshire..I came across a Sarah Mcclery in Marchburn,Inch aged 1 & born in Wigtownshire.Her parents are Irish,John & Sarah McClery.Could be a possible contender?
Warboys, Andrew's mother was named as Sarah Ferguson on his marriage certificate.Was she still alive at that time?
Another route to go down would be to check the school admission rolls for Whithorn or surrounding area.They will give details of his home address,parent or guardian & also previous & future schools attended.Very useful if parent(s) were ag.labs who moved every 6 months!.
flst
modified to show smiley face.Angry one appeared by mistake!
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;D However, we may still be with this family. Gosh it's confusing. Warboys, you thought you had problems before with people changing surnames, just wait 'till you try and figure out mother Sarah!
I found a number of birth regs. in Whithorn/Glasserton where the mother's surnames ring bells ::)
1. MARTHA WALLACE Birth: 15 DEC 1864 Whithorn - Parents Samuel Wallace and Sarah CARLIE
2. JAMES WALLACE Birth: 16 NOV 1866 Glasserton - Parents Samuel Wallace and Sarah MCKERLIE
3. ANNIE WALLACE Birth: 15 FEB 1868 Glasserton - Parents Samuel Wallace and Sarah FERGUSON
4. JOHN WALLACE Birth: 01 APR 1870 Glasserton - Parents Samuel Wallace and Sarah FERGUSON
5. SARAH WALLACE Birth: 16 MAR 1873 Whithorn - Parents Samuel Wallace and Sarah MURE (which I think may be the surname showing for Martha Carlie in 1851 back at Rattan Row, possibly mistranscribed on the index I am looking at)
There is a marriage showing in 1864, after the birth of Andrew:
SAMUEL WALLACE Spouse:SARAH MURE Marriage: 12 APR 1864 in Whithorn
And now for the census info:
Samuel Wallace 40, Agricultural Labourer , b. Ireland
Sarah Wallace 31, b. Whithorn
Jane Wallace 16, b. Sorbie
Susan Wallace 10, b. Sorbie
Janet Wallace 9, b. Sorbie
Mary Wallace 8, b. Sorbie
Andrew Wallace 8, b. Whithorn
Martha Wallace 6, b. Whithorn
Annie Wallace 2, b. Glasserton
John Wallace 11 Months, b. Glasserton
Address:Craig Cot House, Whithorn
I think you are going to have to dig deep into BMDs to try and unravel these names ;D
Monica
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::) And there's more flst...
Samuel Wallace looks to have been married previously to a Janet MCKERLIE (06 MAR 1851 in Glasserton). Post 1855 children (all births in Sorbie) showing for them include:
1. SARAH JANE REID WALLACE Birth: 22 MAY 1856
2. SUSANNA WALLACE Birth: 20 OCT 1859
3. JANNET WALLACE Birth: 04 SEP 1861
4. MARY WALLACE Birth: 20 MAY 1863
Monica
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Now, the question is, did Sarah marry her uncle (by marriage), or her brother in law. Me thinks uncle in law given who else shows in the WALLACE household in 1861 before Janet's death:
Samuel Wallace 36, ploughman, b Ireland
Janet Wallace (McCarley) 34, b. Glasserton
Dorothy McCarley 75, mother in law Formerly Labs Wife, b. Whithorn
Agner Wallace 9
David Wallace 7
Sarah Jane Wallace 5
Susan Wallace 1
Address: Old Whitehills, Sorbie
Added: Just realised, Samuel Wallace and Janet show in the household with Dorothy and Martha in 1851 that we already have above.
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For completeness, the Wallaces in 1881:
Samuel Wallace 48, farm servant, b. Ireland
Sarah Wallace 37, b. Whithorn
Andrew Wallace 17, farm servant, b. Whithorn
Martha Wallace 16, b. Whithorn
Annie Wallace 14, b. Glasserton
John Wallace 11, b. Glasserton
William Wallace 6, b. Whithorn
Samuel Wallace 3, b. Whithorn
Janet Wallace 6, granddaughter, b. Glasserton
Address: Tonderghie Cot. House No. 3., Whithorn
It would be good to find Sarah in the 1841 census, but failing miserably to do so...
Monica
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Well done on working that out. If Dorothy Carley is a relative,& she's claiming parish relief in 1851,might there be some information to be gleaned off the application form?
I'm a bit unsure,are you saying Sarah,Andrew Morris Carly's mother, was a sister of Janet McCarley?If Sarah was 37 in 1881 census,she must've been born in 1844?
flst
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I think (bit confused here) that Dorothy was mother. At least two daughters, Martha (no idea who she may have married at this stage and her age is very erratic in the censuses) and Janet, who married Samuel Wallace in 1851 and who looks to have died c. 1863.
Sarah I believe was the daughter of Martha. She has Andrew in 1863 and then went on to marry Samuel Wallace, her uncle in law.
Hopefully, the BMDS will provide more info :) Sarah's 1864 MC will let you Warboys confirm her parents as a start.
Monica
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I have also found the granddaughter Agnes Allison who shows with grandmother Martha in 1871 is likely to also be the daughter of Sarah:
AGNES MUIR ALLISON Birth:07 JAN 1858 Whithorn
Parents:WILLIAM ALLISON and SARAH FERGUSON
No marriage showing, so I imagine an illegitimate birth as Andrew was.
Monica
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Found this entry on family search!
Sarah Fergusson c30 Mar 1838 Whithorn,Wigtownshire
Parents:David Fergusson & Martha Muir
flst
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Has to be her flst :D Clever you!
Monica
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Well yet again I would like to say thanks for all the help with finding the details on Sarah. I can now see why we got stuck.
A quick summary of the findings as we now see them is a follows,
Sarah was born on the 30th March 1838 and her surname was Ferguson. Her parents were David Ferguson and Martha Mure. In the 1851 census Sarah was living with her grandmother Dorothy Carley.
Sarah used various surnames i.e. Ferguson, Mure, Carley, & McKarlie with a variety of spellings.
Sarah had at least 10 children by the following fathers that we can account for, William Allison, Andrew Morris (found on a different thread) and Samuel Wallace.
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Glad you got there :)
Monica