RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: king otg on Wednesday 04 February 09 11:41 GMT (UK)
-
The 1814 Michaelmas Quarter Sessions for Kendal Westmorland tell of a Mary SWALES who was apprehended at Kirkby Lonsdale. She had been gathering rags, selling spoons and sometimes begging. She stated that she married Richard SWALES 15 years earlier at Kirkby Moorside Yorkshire and that he was a tinker of Dent. Her age can be further narrowed down because in 1811 she had been supplied with lotion and ointment (presumably for childbirth?). Her legal place of settlement was declared to be Dent which is a small town now although it used to be much more densely populated during wool production.
The burial register for Dent shows a Mary SWALE 'of Town' buried 22 April 1830 aged 70. It also gives a Richard SWALE 'of Hall Bank' buried there on 17 August 1825 aged 48. His close relative, John SWALE, also of Hall Bank, was described as a razor grinder is one of his children's baptisms but there is no mention of the word 'tinker'. This John was the ancestor of a later Robert SWALES who is found in 1861 Pembrokeshire 4167/82/7.
Since Kirkby Moorside had its own supply of SWALES, and a few links to places in Westmorland amongst them, I wonder if anyone knows who this Mary was and whether the link with Kirkby Moorside can be unravelled.
-
Hi king otg
I am not sure if this is relevent but I found this on Palots marriage Index. I wonder if he could be related ?
Date; 1808
Richd Swales hawker aged 80 to
magdalene Stuart aged 84, widow
Thornton In Lonsdale West Riding Yorkshire
there is a christening on IGI, extracted
Richard Swale s/o John Swale and Mary
12 FEB 1775 Dent, Yorkshire
possible siblings =
BENJAMIN SWALE 5 MAR 1780 Dent
JOHN SWALE 7 APR 1771 Dent
GEORGE SWALE 8 MAR 1777 Dent
FLORA SWALE 28 FEB 1782 Dent
deb
-
Thanks, I have checked them and there appears to have been a settlement in Dent from which some of the SWALES moved to Sedbergh where a group of pottery hawkers called LAKING from Leicestershire settled and married into local families.
The A To Z of Gipsy Genealogies Part One (which is a free download) mentions how interesting the Kirkby Moorside baptism registers are. I visited Northallerton Record Office in North Yorks to search for Swales and was impressed by the amount of detail available in the standard register entry.
Between 1822 and 1842 all but two of the baptisms for Swales contain seven names, the extra four being both sets of grandparents. In one case the maiden surname of the maternal grandmother is also included.
They were pot dealers, hawkers and tinkers living on the Moor and travelling to and from County Durham and Westmorland. I collected full details of 26 SWALES (baptised 1801-1854) at Kirkby Moorside, 9 at Yarm (1837-1844) and 19 at Pickering (1838-1851).
I cannot reproduce it all but would be happy to look up specific private requests if there is a clear family history reason for it. Here is an example to show the degree of detail. The information in brackets is also in the original record:
YKS.NLN. Kirkby Moorside [p135/1685] bp19/11/1838 Mary d/o James (s/o James/Esther) SWALES, potman of Kirkby Moorside, and Mabel (d/o John/Mary BASFIELD).
-
Hello,I am looking for George Swales born 1809 or 10. He married Margaret Cunningham. On the 1851 census Durham [ St Giles]he gives his birthplace as Sedberg,and on the 1861 Horton Bradford he gives his birthplace as Middlesex. George was an earthenware dealer, I cant find his birth anywhere and wondered if you had come across it,while looking into the Dent Swales,Thanks Margaret
-
Hello again, I should have explained George was my ggggrandfather and the family were hawkers,general dealers travelers until my grandmothers generation,thanks again
-
#1
Deb usa
The list of Swales baptisms you mention also appear in my family tree, as I am a descendant of the JOHN SWALES Born 1771 in Dent to John and Mary. Does anyone know Mary's maiden name?
John married a Mary (possibly EADLE) 1789 in Dent . He named his daughter Flora (born c 1795) Christened 1799 in Dent. (Where John's occupation is listed as a Potter.)
Flora died aged 83 in 1878 in Preston Lancashire. She was my 3x great Grandmother.
I searched for years for certain certificates and eventually found them under the name of Waters and Walters. The documents do state Swales in fancy handwriting but have been transcribed wrongly in the indexes.
-
In reply to magpie28, no sign of George senior, so far, but the names of his family members are not unlike those at Dent, a possible brother being Benjamin who is age 50 in Millthrop, Sedbergh, in 1851.
From Benjamin's third marriage on 16 August 1847 at Kendal Holy Trinity his father was John Swales.
-
King otg,
Thanks,. now I have another avenue to explore,[part of the fun] it could be a possibility as Georges oldest son was John[1841-1915].
Thank you.
-
I have been doing quite a bit of research on the SWALES family in the north which has led me to its offshoot families. The name was widespread, ranging from Lancashire, Westmorland to county Durham, although the largest number are to be found in Yorkshire. Combine this with some very detailed baptism register entries and you have several generations in one entry giving up to nine names and four surnames for SWALES, CUNNINGHAM and others.
The SWALES family most often mentioned comes from Kirkby Moorside although I have traced them back to Westmorland a few generations earlier.
Despite this branch living in the region of Dent, where another lot are situated, they seem to be a completely different family. The other major group originated from Durham and include the Hannibal SWALES families.
Researchers are justified in describing these as very interesting but I do not see many people asking questions and I attribute this to bad habits.
-
You mention that the A to Z of Gipsy Genealogies Part One is a free download but I couldn't find it when I googled.
Can you please post the details of this site?
Annette
-
Yes, Annette 7,
The item you mention is available as a free download however everybody who has a copy is under strict copyright agreement not to pass it on to anybody else. The work is also password protected so you will receive the password at the right time.
If I were to place the download details on this site I suspect it would be reported and deleted as is often the case. But if you wish to let me know your receiving email address, privately, I will send you a copy as soon as I can.
Best wishes
-
This is in connection with reply #3
Hi Magpie28,
I found this in Yarm (Cleveland) baptisms: 29 September 1835 James Greg son of Henry & Margery CUNNINGHAM, potter of Yarm.
There are several details in the above which match your interests.
With regard to the SWALES side, the references 1851DUR-2391/157/23 and 1861YKS-3331/81/22 provide only one or two reasonable searches of which I shall try to find Christiana SWALES although the more baptisms that can be checked at source, the more likely it is that one of them will provide the father's place of baptism.
It has already been established that George (1810) was not baptised in Sedbergh so I think a blanket approach is better than a single-focused one. What census references do you have for John (1840-1915) and what was his wife's name and his general whereabouts 1861 to 1911?
I have not yet looked for John because it would be an inefficient use of time. Far better that you should say what you have. The strategy is to approach George's origins from a different direction.
Regards
-
Hello Again Magpie28,
Many thanks for the family details that you recently sent me under private cover. I was pleased to see that some of your ancestors are already mentioned in my latest book, The Cumbria Gipsy Index, which provides raw information from parish registers in the areas covered by modern Cumbria.
I will let you know where to find my advert.
Living, as I do, not far from Appleby I have noticed local politicians using the 2009 Fair for political gain. They report that a small minority of visitors caused some trouble and they are working on ways to combat it next time. The general movement is towards preventing travellers from arriving in the Eden area too soon although the contrary argument, that the horses need time to recover from their journey, is not being seriously considered. Essentially there is only one feud (at Cautley on the approach to Appleby) and it has been going on for a decade.
Every year the politicians huff and puff about it but the income from the fair keeps many people in business so there is zero chance of it coming to an end. Besides, the police are remarkably tolerant at Appleby and management is best left to them.
Regards
-
Hi Magpie 28,
Although Henry SWALES was born about 1856 there was an older brother having the same name baptised 5 March 1848 at Brough WML son of George and Margaret, itinerant dealer in earthenware of Brough. He died young.
In 1871WML George SWALE (age 68), his widowed daughter Elizabeth CAIN (22), son Henry (15) and second wife Sarah [she married him in 1863] appear at Hillbeck WML 5270/42/13. All are described as hawkers.
-
Hi King otg,
You have found things in a matter of weeks which I have been looking for, over a few years,I would love if you could give me more information about Georges wife and where they got married, many thanks,
Regards Margaret
-
Hi Magpie 28,
Married 24 January 1863 Brough WML, George SWALE, widower, X, full age, potter (father: John SWALE - potter) = Sarah BOUSFIELD, widow, signed, full age (father: John BRISCO - mason). One of the witnesses was Ann SWALE X, the other's surname is unreadable on the original.
Death registrations: Henry SWALES June Qtr 1848 West Ward; Margaret SWALES June Qtr 1869 (56) South Shields.
Referring back to Reply #6 the above marriage confirms what we believed which is that George was part of the group of potters based at Dent since 1708. There is another George SWALE there in the previous generation, son of John, so I think it likely that George's grandfather was also called John.
Five miles from Dent, at Sedbergh, there is evidence of past pottery works and some of the SWALES of Dent moved to Sedbergh as well as to Kendal and other places in Wesmorland and also Wales.
Regards
-
Hi King otg,
Once again thank you,
Margaret
-
Have found a Dinah Swales on the 1861 Preston census with John Swales as her father.She is also on the 1881 with her mother Elizabeth age 50 who has remarried to William Ireland.[William Ireland to Elizabeth Morrison Preston 1876]I believe that Dinahs father was Thomas Morrison[but cant find any marriages for her parents .She is also on with Priscilla [her sister who married Martin Moran ] whose father is supposed to be John Swales.On the m1871 Preston census there is an Elizabeth Morrison age 37 [classed as niece to Flora Ireland age 71]with a Diana Morrison age 13 [classed as gran daughter to Flora]
I've checked births and found that Elizabeth Morrison/Swales Ireland could have has Mary 1864,John 1865and Francis 1867 in her possible maiden name of Gordon .These 3 children are on the 1871 Fulwood census in the workhouse bur appear on the 1881 Preston with Elizabeth&William Ireland.
On the 1891 Durham census is Dinah Gordon wid 92 born Dent,Elizabeth Ireland daughter married 58 and a Francis Reynolds daughter 56.
What I am wondering in all this confusion id whether Flora Ireland nee Swales is Dinah Gordons born 1799 sister?
This all sounds confused so please bear with me.
Does anyone have any info please?
Thanks Diane
-
Dear Deb,
Reply #1, I did manage to see the orginal and there was not much extra information but thanks for the tip.
YKS.NLN Thornton in Lonsdale m24/6/1808 Richard
SWALES (80) hkr = Magdalene STUART (84) wid
Dear Diane,
(last reply) I think we dealt with this privately. I am not certain that it was you but the information you required was at Stokesley, Yorks. This is extracted from my database:
SWALES
YKS NLN Stokesley bp16/6/1819 Alexander s/o Francis/Christiana, potter of S.
YKS NLN Stokesley bp11/11/1832 John s/o John/Varna, potter of Aycliffe
YKS NLN Stokesley bp9/2/1834 Mary d/o Emmanuel/Christiana, potter of S.
YKS NLN Stokesley bp9/11/1834 Alexander s/o John/Varna, potter of S.
YKS NLN Stokesley bp2/9/1837 Christiana d/o John/Lavinia, potter of Hirtcliffe nr Darlington
YKS NLN Stokesley bp1/1/1840 Mary d/o John/Lavinia, potter of S.
YKS NLN Stokesley bp3/5/1840 Mary d/o Francis/Elizabeth, potter of S.
YKS NLN Stokesley bp26/3/1848 Zechariah s/o Francis/Elizabeth, potter of S.
YKS NLN Stokesley bp10/3/1850 Thomas s/o Francis/Elizabeth, potter of S.
YKS NLN Stokesley bp29/2/1852 Charlotte d/o Francis/Elizabeth, potter of S.
YKS NLN Stokesley bp14/11/1852 Elizabeth d/o John/Lavinia, tinner
YKS NLN Stokesley bp25/12/1854 John s/o John/Levina, tinner & brazier of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp17/8/1856 Zac s/o John/Levinia, tinner of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp26/9/1858 John s/o John/Lavinia, tinner of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp15/4/1866 (b30/3) Jeremiah s/o Jeremiah/Mary, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp18/5/1873 Elizabeth d/o Zechariah/Sarah, pt.hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp8/3/1874 Mabel d/o Mark/Elizabeth, e-w.dlr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp13/9/1882 Christiana d/o Zachariah/Sarah, tinsmith of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp16/10/1885 Margaret d/o James/Margaret, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp10/12/1886 Isabella d/o James/Margaret, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp8/6/1887 Zachariah s/o Richard/Elizabeth, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp8/7/1888 Francis s/o francis/Mary, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp5/2/1890 Thomas s/o James/Margaret, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp18/1/1893 William s/o James/Margaret, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp1/4/1894 Ann d/o James/Margaret, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp15/8/1906 (b1/8) Mary d/o Francis/Jane, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp4/12/1909 (b19/11) Violet d/o Alexander/Alice, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp4/12/1909 (b19/11) Alexander s/o Alexander/Alice, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp16/12/1909 (b14/11) Margaret d/o James/Christiana, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp8/3/1913 (b16/1) Margaret d/o Alexander/Alice, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp31/8/1917 (b10/8) Emily Elizabeth d/o James/Christiana, hkr of S
YKS NLN Stokesley bp23/4/1921 (b7/4) Frank s/o James/Christiana
YKS NLN Stokesley bp24/1/1925 (b28/12/1924) Laura d/o james/Christiana, hkr of S
-
I am also looking for a Mary Swale / s from York.....apart from a daughter Harriet born 1827 and a son Frederick born 1823; I can find nothing more about her other than perhaps a grave record.
If anyone spots a connection please let me know.
AL