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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Moonstar36 on Tuesday 03 February 09 20:06 GMT (UK)
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Hello, Can someone help me please?
I found my GG Grandmother, Mary Ann Brown in 1861 census with her family. Ebenezer, (her dad born abt 1814)says he was born Scotland showing as working in a Lunatic Hosp and his wife Mary (abt 1818) born in Badsworth Yorks with children, Sarah J abt 1838, born Wakefield, Yorks, son Ebenezer sbt 1846, born Brighton Sussex and Mary Ann, born canterbury Kent (this was at the time they were in the Barracks in Canterbury) and Eliza Eleanor age 7 born Hounslow Essex. In 1861 they were living at that time in Thornes/Alverthorpe, Yorks. Later in 1891 census they are living in Harrogate. Ebenezer is now a Chelsea pensioner
However, in trying to find any of them before 1861 I am drawing a blank for census and births. Ebenezer was in 17th Lancers and was a Sargeant Major I think and hence this may the reason they moved around. I think I did find him once in Troon, Scotland in an army barracks which was fort 1841 year and in that showed he was born in England!
Its Ebenezer I am trying to find as I want to establish if he did come from Scotland and have some old family details that said hew as based in Biggar once. However, the whole family have disappeared for 1851 and 1841 to where?? Later in 1891 he is shown as Chelsea Pensioner.
Is it possible he went to Crimean wars? Or India, is it possible the family went with him? Can anyone please help??
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Hi Moonstar
My ancestor was in the 17th Lancers. In 1841 they were stationed at Govan, Lanarkshire Scotland and I found that in the 1851 census they were in Ireland. Unfortunately the Irish 1851 census hasnt survived except for the names of the heads of households in Dublin and the odd fragment.
You should be able to look them up in the 1841 census at Glasgow Cavalry Barracks, Govan, Lanarkshire, Scotland.
Ben
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Hi Moonstar
The 1841 census shows an Ebenezer Brown at the Barracks in Govan as a Private 17th Lancers aged 30, but it says England as his birthplace.
Ancestry do not show the original images for the 1841 Scottish census unlike others but there is a Sarah Brown born England aged 3 at the barracks probably in the Soldiers relatives quarters. There was also a Thomas Brown aged 5, Isabella Brown aged 1 and Alice Brown aged 1 month with a Jane and Margaret Brown aged 25 and 20.
Ben
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This link - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-3993887&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CEBENEZER%2CBROWN&accessmethod=0
- shows that a record in this name is available on microfilm in Kew. Could it be his father?
You can order a copy of the papers but they did not record details of wives and children then, nor the towns regiments were based in, only whether they were ‘Home’ or ‘Overseas’. If you cannot get that information remotely, you will have to visit Kew and look in the Muster Books (WO12) for the 79th Regiment (Cameronian Highlanders) and then look for baptisms in local records.
The 79th had a second battalion that was disbanded after Waterloo, so there should be two Muster books before that date.
You could do the same for the 17th Lancers to find other children.
Ken
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Hi
Ebenezer Brown's discharge records at the TNA will show some great information such as age, birthplace, army number, rank, physical description, height, reason for discharge, any promotions etc.
Ben
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Hi Ben
:-[ sorry but what is TNA???....err! I am pretty new to this so feel embarassed at asking.
Linda
:)
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Hi
TNA is The National Archives.
Ben
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thank you! sorry! doh! oh bear of little brain
Linda
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358 Farrier Sergeant Ebenezer Brown:
Enlisted in 1830 or 1831 [Honour the Light Brigade, p. 251]. He was with the Service Troops from 1 January 1854 through 30 September 1854, but shows at Varna from 1 October through 31 January 1855. Muster Rolls are unclear as to his whereabouts, but he appears to have been in the Crimea from February 1855 through 8 August 1855. To Scutari 08-08 1855, & from Scutari to England 08-28-55 [55-3-2] Crimean Medal [p. 502, Medal Rolls, 17th Lancers] w/ Sebastopol Clasp [p. 508, Medal Rolls, 17th Lancers]. Remarks “Restored from Pte 07-23-54” shown in Lummis and Wynn, apply to James Tuffin (806), the Armour Sgt. Brown shows as “Farrier-Major as Sgt” or “Farr-Sgt” for all of his time w/ the Service Troops (, the titles apparently being used interchangably.
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...Muster Rolls are unclear as to his whereabouts....,
If you mean the entries were blank this shows he was at the muster with the main force. They only recorded exceptions. So he was at the town/fort stated on the label on either the front or back cover.
Ken
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The Musters in question have only ditto marks in each of the three months of the Muster, but what is written above is illegible. I have concluded, because they are shown on the other entries above and below, that they are space markers and indicate his presence with the Service Troops. This is corroborated by later indications where he is sent "to Scutari" . . . what is missing is any indication that he left Varna to rejoin the service troops, but errors and omissions abound depending on the diligence of the person making the entries.
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I am sorry not to have replied sooner ...but I am thrilled to find that you have given me this additional info about Ebenezer...and thrilled to know where he was serving! Not that it was a wonderful place etc...have since been reading about it and it was as horrific as WW1 trenches.
Can you tell me what sort of age would soldiers such as this retire at? He seems to have come out before 1871....do you know if he may have been in Ireland at some point?
Would there be any records about his daughters...one in particular is Mary Ann Brown who married John Marshall who apparently later became known as Happy Jack a Councillor for the area in or around Halifax..
what exactly is a Farrier Major or Sargeant farrier.... sorry but I don't know about the military and find it fascinating that both my GG Grandfathers were military men.
Many thanks for the work you have gone to and info given..it is so appreciated!!
kind regards
LInda
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Dear Linda:
Retirement was much an individual matter; initial enlistments for the cavalry were for 12 years, and many of the men re-enlisted at the end of that time. Conditions of army life (housing, workload, diet) wore men out before their time, so that some relatively young men (late 30s to early 40's or even younger) were 'discharged as useless' based on their inability to fulfill the necessary duties. Men were also allowed to purchase a discharge if they wanted out of the army before the end of their service commitment.
As the movements of the Lancers are not a particular specialty of mine, I had to cheat and look it up, but they do not appear to have spent much time in Ireland around the time of the war. If you want to check out more specifics, go to "Google Book Search", do an "advanced book search", use "17th Lancers" as your search term and do your search for a "full view only." Two of the most authoritative books on the history of the 17th Lancers are available there to download in their entirety as PDF files: Fortescue's "A History of the 17th Lancers" and Parry's "The Death or Glory Boys."
Farrier-Major or Farrier-Sergeant was the NCO in charge of the farriers that tended to the horses to include blacksmith duties.
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Hi Linda
The 17th Lancers were in Ireland:
= April 1828 to June 1832
= June 1838 to May 1840
= June 1846 to May 1851
= May 1856 to Oct 1857, when they left for India for seven and a half years.
= Apr 1870 to June 1876
This was the main force of the regiment. In addition about 10% of the total strength would have comprised a depot for recruitment and training. This always stayed in the UK – which included Ireland of course – but may have been separate from the rest of the regiment even when they were was ‘home’.
He is not listed as receiving the Indian Mutiny medal, so he may have stayed at home. At the end of 1859 the depot was in Canterbury. Have you found him in 1861?
He would have enlisted ‘for life’, ie until he was physically unable to continue. But this usually meant he was reviewed after 21 years. His pension would have been based on his final rank, and years of service. As a senior NCO, when he was discharged to pension 3 or 4 men would be promoted, so they would not have held on to him if he wished to take his discharge.
Ken