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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Hungry Pelican on Sunday 01 February 09 22:45 GMT (UK)
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I happened to come across someone researching The Caldwells (I think it was August 2008) and they mentioned that Marianne Caldwell was previously married to William Lionel Pyne. We have been searching for him for years! In the 1881 census, Marianne Caldwell was living with her daughter, Rowena Maria Hercy (nee Pyne). William Lionel Pyne's other children are Julia Augusta Pyne and William Rowland Pyne. Has anybody got any records of William Lionel Pyne - he is my husband's 3rd great grandfather? Marianne Caldwell died 20/12/1885 in Bray Berks.
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The 1881 census would give us her age, and show her daughters details too to track back...
http://www.familyhistoryonline.net/index/search/results.pl?cl=TGroup&gc=11&gr=39125&ds=224&zt=t
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what date & place have you for "Julia Augusta Pyne and William Rowland Pyne"?
Pauline
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earlier threads:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,322249.15.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,271110.0.html
I had begun to try to make sense of this family and then thought it easier if we have other people's hard work to look at - not that it helps much!
Looks very complicated as it is thought that Marianne was a Pyne (maiden name)
Family Search has these christenings:
Julia Augusta b 2 June 1836 christening 18 October 1838
parents: John Pyne and Mary Anne
John Rowland Lionel Pyne b 15 Dece 1837 christening 18 October 1838
parents: John Pyne and Mary ANn
Saint Luke's Chelsea both extracted from records.
So somewhere there is some misinformation by the looks of it.
regards
heywood
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you probably have Julia's marriage and census details
here she is in 1871 RG10; Piece: 790; Folio: 78; Page: 37 with husband Edward Miller, a retired Naval Captain.
I suppose that this is where the difficulties in finding them occurs- military families?
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I wonder if the John Rowland Lionel Pyne in Family Search becomes your William Rowland Pyne
1871 RG10; Piece: 175; Folio: 24; Page: 39 - William R Pyne born Brighton.
From memory of the other threads, if these are all the same family, Mary Ann/Marianne was having them around the same time and without doing the maths or referring back- would that be possible? They all seem to be born Brighton though- even though none appear in the indexes ???
They do seem though to be very respectable so you couldn't imagine that there are any shenanigans going on :o
Have you tried any military or naval records for William Lionel Pyne?
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Hi, Sorry to be so slow in replying - I'm new to this! Thank you so much for replying. I'm grateful for any input.
I was always baffled by the IGI record of Julia Augusta Pyne being the daughter of John Pyne and Mary Ann, baptised 1838 Chelsea, as the name is not that common and the date and place is correct. Also there's the difficulty of her brother William Rowland Pyne (I wonder if you are right about the John Lionel Rowland Pyne being the same person?) And what about her sister Rowena Maria Pyne who was born in Brighton the same as William Rowland - she is not mentioned in the IGI. Yes I have got the marriage certs. and all three give William Lionel Pyne as the father, but he is nowhere to be found in any census or BMD, although it doesn't state that he is deceased on any of the marriage cert. in the 1860s. Apparently Marianne Caldwell remarried in 1843. She is incidentally living in Upton, Bucks. in 1861 at the same time as Julia Augusta Miller (nee Pyne) is living in the next village of Datchet, Bucks. Julia gives her address as Upon in 1860 on ther marriage cert., so I am assuming this Marianne Caldwell is also Julia's mother. As Julia's husband, Edward Colebrooke Miller was in the Royal Navy, perhaps William Lionel Pyne had some connection with the services also. Who knows!
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Yes and some of the William R's children were born in the Falklands.
Does it not have an occupation for their father on those marriage certificates?
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Hi, Yes we've spent hours and hours of wasted time at Kew looking through military records for William Lionel Pyne without any success. His son William Rowland Pyne was Receiver General for Trinidad until 1885 when he died.
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The occupation of William Lionel Pyne on the Marriage Certs. states "Gentleman".
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well there you are- covers everything ;)
There are a few William Pyne deaths in and around Brighton in early 1840s which aren't of much help unless you can be more specific.
He doesn't appear here - have had a quick look
http://www.sussex-opc.org/Pigot1840/BrightonPigot1840.htm
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Thank you very much for your input. I must get to bed now. This genealogy is addictive! :-\
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same here- goodnight!
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There appears to also be the matter of Isabella Pyne/Caldwell. She married the Rev. Samuel Buxton Smyth in 1870 (his second marriage) under the name Isabella Pyne, and they are in East Hanningfield in 1871 (information from the other thread). I suppose her marriage certificate will just give the same, though...
She's visiting Ellen E. "Easton" in 1881 (actually Easson) - but she was nee Atkins. I had a quick look at the other visitors but couldn't see any connection there.
A look at the original christening records from Chelsea would be helpful as they should say what "John"'s occupation was.
I wonder if there's any connection to Isabella Deedes Pyne, b. 1 Dec 1828, chrs. 11 Aug 1829, St. James, Paddington, illegitimate daughter of Mary Ann Pyne?
Where did the marriage of George Caldwell and Mary Ann/Marianne Pyne take place in 1843?
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Hi, Thanks for replying.
Marianne and George married in St. Peter's Church, Dublin, on 13th May 1843 - see the earlier threads:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,322249.15.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,271110.0.html
The last time I went to London to look at the Chelsea records, I couldn't find the entry!
That's interesting about Isabella Deedes Pyne, b 1828, as the birth date is nearer (she says she's 40 in the 1871 census), whereas the Isabella Caldwell living in Upton, Bucks with her mother, Marianne, gives her age as 25, making her born about 1836.
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These are just thoughts/ coincidences etc
Family Search has submissions :-\ for a Julia Pyne birth 1797 and marriage 1818 - St Peter's Dublin (where Marianne married George Caldwell)
In one census Marianne gives her place of birth as Marion Square Dublin (could this be Merrion Square?)
On other threads there is speculation if George Pyne is her brother. There are some references to him online e.g. http://home.planet.nl/~pdavis/Officers_EL.htm
Last night I looked on Google books but only found the odd reference to Rowena's marriage.
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just spotted as I closed other thread down that Justin (?) has George Pyne's marriage certificate - I wonder who his father was and who the witnesses were?
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hope I'm not being a nuisance with these snippets:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~nickred/newspaper/np_abst38.htm
think it's reporting a death in 1833 - Merrion Square Mrs Elizabeth Croker daughter of Arthur Pyne ???
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=074-acc1429&cid=-1&Gsm=2008-06-18#-1
mentions a marriage settlement, I think, 1832- Maryanne Pyne but not sure I understand this.
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Hi, Thanks for that.
I have Rowena's marriage cert. - 8th Jan 1863, aged 25 years. Address: 42 Half Moon Street, St. George's, Hanover Square. Father: William Lionel Pyne - Profession - Esquire.
Julia Pyne b. 1797, m. 1818 could be either William Lionel's or Marianne Pyne/Caldwell's mother :)
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sorry- Julia was Pyne as a maiden name- I was just thinking that it may be family name.
I wonder if that was just speculation re George Pyne being a brother? According to census- George was from Cork.
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That's a shame :-[
JustinL says unfortunately the register of Marianne and George's marriage in Dublin does not reveal the names of their parents :(.
JustinL also says: "Marianne's maiden name was Pyne. Her sister, Eliza, explicitly names their brother as George Pyne in her will of 1843. This confirms that their birth surname was in fact Pyne". He continues: "To confuse things, Eliza appears to have been married to Charles Horace Pyne - a cousin maybe! By the same token, it is possible that Marianne had been previously married to a Pyne. However, the entry in the parish register notes her as a spinster". :-\
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what about George Pyne's marriage certificate?
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As JustinL has the will of Elizabeth, that would indicate where the family come from.
If the George is the one who then marries and lives in Devon- Cork is given as his birthplace.
Marianne gives Dublin.
Elizabeth specifically mentions George- does she mention Marianne- or is that speculation?
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I apologise for keep questioning and thought my previous post may sound a bit curt. :-[
What I was wondering is ... does JustinL have proof that Elizabeth and Marianne are sisters? i would have thought that the will would give at least a current address/information re Elizabeth from which may be deducted some useful clues?
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Hi there,
Thanks for your interest.
I'll give you the link so that you can read all that Justin knows.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,322249.15.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,271110.0.html
According to Justin, Eliza died in Maida Vale in 1843. Marianne was present at the death and even registered it. He intends to go to the city archives in Dublin in the next few days and copy the entry in full of the Caldwell/Pyne marriage.
That's a good point about George Pyne's marriage cert. which Justin has got. Hopefully it gives the name of the father. :) Thanks for that.
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Thanks - I had looked at them initially and forgot to go back! It is so interesting- I hope you don't mind.
By the way George, I think, got married in Brighton so that sounds good.
regards
heywood
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I don't mind at all. I'm really grateful for all your info. Sometimes someone else can think of things you haven't thought of and vice versa. I'm going to look up some of your other references you mentioned now. Ros.
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I am a bit concerned here (understatement I think :D) I am just reading an old thread of Justin's
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,189217.0.html
where he mentions the people in Eliza's will and there is no mention of Marianne - unless at that time he omitted it because it was of no consequence.
If Marianne reported the death- and was her sister, surely she would be in the will somewhere- even it was just a token.
Eliza died between April and June 1843 and Marianne was married in May 1843 - so Eliza must have died April 1st-May if Marianne registered death as Pyne.
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and here's the other thread from that period where Justin mentions Isabella Deedes Pyne and Mary Ann http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,189087.msg928339.html#msg928339
It's handy to have these together because of the previous research - this was from 2006 and you never know something may have come up in the interveing years :o
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Hi,
Marianne is registered as "Caldwell" and "Sister of the deceased". Eliza left fatherless children and Marianne had just married someone who must have been fairly well-off, so perhaps it's not quite so unusual. Also, if Marianne was there during her illness, Eliza may have given her some keepsake beforehand. Only surmising!
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I can accept that - especially if it gives her name so we can definitely assume that Marianne and Eliza are sisters.
So... going back to those baptisms of Eliza's children and Isabella Deedes Pyne.
Emma, Charles and Frederick (Eliza) and Isabella (Mary Ann) were all baptised on the same day with no fathers given.
This could mean that they were illegitimate or some other reason (absent in military or similar) but it is odd.
It's all a big coincidence that two Pyne sisters would marry two Pyne men - but again it is possible.
Emma and Virginia are traceable in the censuses and both marry well as do Marianne's children so again things are contradictory. It doesn't seem possible that the children are all illegitimate with whatever connotations that would bring. ???
I have just seen 1861- Augustus F Pyne b 1826 London a Lieutenant in the Navy - I wonder if he could be Frederick?
I also saw earlier an account in an Irish paper of 1850 there was a Charles Pyne -Navy being court marshalled in Portsmouth - I think or Plymouth but nothing else.
Justin's ancestor is Virginia- I wonder if her marriage certificate has her father mentioned?
Well that's about it for now- a real puzzle but so interesting.
Goodnight
Kath
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Hi Kath,
Thank you for that.
I haven't looked into the "Eliza" side of the family at all yet, so cannot confirm anything there, but now I know she was Marianne's sister I will do so. My husband is descended from Marianne and William Lionel Pyne, so that is where my main interest lies at the moment.
I forgot to tell you that Justin gives George Pyne's (possibly Eliza and Marianne's brother, but cannot be proved as yet) father as George Pyne - occupation civil servant, India and the witnesses as no-one recognisable. Perhaps - only perhaps - William Lionel Pyne was out there in some occupation too. Maybe there is a record out there somewhere?
We are hoping to track down a will for Marianne Caldwell and are going initially to Kew in the next few days where I believe they have an index of post 1858 wills.
Ros.
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Hello Kath and Ros,
It's very good of you both to give my side of the Pyne family so much thought. I don't want to draw the attention away from Ros's original posting.
Virginia's marriage cert names her father as Horatio Pyne, gentlemen.
Eliza's death cert describes as the widow of Charles Horace Pyne, late a Captain in the Royal Navy.
Despite many attempts no trace has been found of this man.
Justin
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Hello you two,
no I don't want to stray away from Marianne but I was hoping that Eliza and then perhaps George would come together with Marianne and hey presto an answer! Wouldn't life be easy if it were so. :D
Sorry to mither - is George in the will specifically named as George Pyne, brother and not just brother George (surname not given).
Ooohh - it's all so mysterious!
Were the witnesses ever named in Marianne and George Caldwell's marriage?
Kath
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Hello Kath,
I quite understand your logic, it's the same logic that I've been following in vain. How can a family be so elusive?
The brother was named as George Pyne. You'll find a thread a couple years ago now when I received a lot of help searching for George Pynes in the '41 census. The numerous searches never yielded a clear result.
For what it's worth the witnesses at Marianne's and George's wedding in Dublin were Stephen Alcock, who was a boot & shoe maker in Dublin, and Thomas Firke (not very clear) of White Bear, Piccadilly.
Marianne claimed to have been born in Merrion Square here in Dublin. I shall try to investigate that further.
Justin
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Glad the logic is coming over!! I had seen Merrion Square and found a reference - somewhere on here- where there was an Elizabeth Pyne - married and I think died but not connected I have come to realise - I was wondering if they were connected to Arthur Pyne and Ballyvolane House (?) Cork - but alas!!
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a light diversion..http://www.criterion-theatre.co.uk/about.html
read about the White Bear in Piccadilly - 'had become the resort of 'Sporting Characters' :o
for elimination purposes only - here is the reference for the pub in 1851
HO107; Piece: 1484; Folio: 151; Page: 18
(nothing of interest) will see if I can find it in 1841 ::)
Nothing to be spotted in 1841- not enough detail given in census to identify the place.
Here is Stephen Alcock in a Dublin directory - so at least there's one person here who can be identified ::) http://www.failteromhat.com/dublin/public/public1.pdf
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Hi All - hope you don't mind me chipping in, and sorry if this has been already mentioned, I am not sure I managed to find and read all the previous threads.
Although Marianne & George Cauldwell married in Ireland there was a Marriage Licence Allegation from the Faculty Office London. I can only get the index entry (though it is possible to order a copy of the allegation it costs £10)
06 Jan 1843 PYNE Marianne CALDWELL George
I am afraid I don't know what information might be on it but I thought you should know it exists, perhaps someone will know more about possible contents than me
DebbieG
(will carry on digging) :)
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Hi Debbie,
welcome on board :D Isn't this interesting; frustrating and difficult ;)
Just posting this which may be relevant:
Again for info -coincidence??
you might have been here already Justin:
National Archives RN Officer's Service Records
Frederick Pyne Lieutenant RN - birth given as 11th August 1826 - Family Search gives Frederick as 11 April 1826 and baptised 11 August 1829 ??? ??? ???
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This is just amazing. I'll have to dig into my pocket and buy some of those service records. I have a copy of the entries in the baptismal register; the IGI records are correct.
Debbie - thanks for tip off about the marriage licence. I only have licences from the late 18th century. They do not mention the parents of either bride or groom.
Early start tomorrow, better be off to bed.
Justin
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Good luck Justin!
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I have just downloaded ADM/196/13. It is merely a tabulated listing of Frederick's postings and his promotions from mate to lieutenant.
It does also record that he died on 29 Sep 1869 on full pay while serving on HMS Royal Adelaide.
His date of birth has been added in one of column headings. On that basis, I must conclude that he was Eliza's second son.
Justin
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It's really silly of me to expect anything to be straightforward here isn't it!
I looked up HMS Adelaide
shows in Devonport by 1861 - checked with census - nothing.
Then searched 'vessels' as civil parish in general censuses and these only show from 1861 onwards.
Only one which seems a possibility is the one I have referenced before:
1861 RG9; Piece: 4435; Folio: 116; Page: 1
HMS Renown anchored off Beirut Syria
Augustus F Pyne single 35 yrs Lieutenant b London Middlesex
I wonder does this fit in with the service record?
I had thought earlier that he could be Frederick .
The death is registered as Frederick 42 yrs
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Hi Kath, Justin & Debbie,
Wow, a lot has happened since Tuesday! I shall have to try and catch up with all the info. you are kindly discovering.
Went to Kew yesterday looking at wills etc. and if I wasn't confused before, I am now ;D.
I found the wills of the Arthur Pyne you mentioned on Monday, Kath and his brother Richard Pyne. They were both from Ballyvolane, Cork, but also had property in Essex. Arthur's will is proved 10/12/1840 in London and mentions his wife Mary Pyne, eldest son Jasper Richard Masters Pyne, 2nd son William Masters Pyne and Daur. Frances Masters Pyne and her grandmother Frances Masters (deceased) He mentions he has six daurs. by Mary Pyne, but none others are mentioned. No mention of George, Eliza or Marianne Pyne.
His brother Richard Pyne, also from Ballyvolane, Cork, dies 27/2/1805 and requests his brother Arthur to build a vault in the church yard. He mentions his wife Sarah Pyne alias Grove, daur. Charlotte and Niece Ann Dorothea. No mention of George, Eliza or Marianne Pyne, but maybe too early anyway.
A Richard Croker Pyne dies 27/2/1805 and will is proved 28/1/1813, Master in the Royal Navy and of Spread Eagle, London, mentions wife Sarah and sister in law Emma (looks like Puzzit!),
No mention of George, Eliza or Marianne Pyne - again probably too early.
The Will of Mary Dillman Pyne, 9/7/1845, widow of St. Marylebone, Middx. has a brother John Cox Dillman Engleheart, sons Rev. Augustus Pyne, Rev. Alfred Pyne and Edward Manners Dillman Pyne and a daughter MARIANNE PYNE, although of course Marianne had married George Caldwell by then! No mention of George (Eliza had died by then) :(. I notice the IGI gives her husband as Francis John Pyne.
On Augustus' marriage cert. he gives his father as JOHN Pyne, gentleman and is living in Hitcham in Bucks.
Am going to Holborn next week to look at the will with a codicil of Marianne Caldwell, which was proved 6th Feb. 1886 and am hoping for great revelations ;D
Regards. Ros
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Hi Ros,
you've been busy! It looks as though those families can be discounted doesn't it :(
When I saw the lady in Merrion Square and then Marianne's claim to Merrion Square I did think that we had found a big clue but then realised when you search around that the Ballyvolane family didn't seem right. There are also references to the Reverend William and family.
It seems so odd that on the one hand the family are very respectable and move within the establishment yet, apart from Rowena's marriage announcement, there are no other obituaries or announcements to be found. There may have been and not preserved.
Ah well- we will await Marianne's will with eager anticipation!
good hunting
Kath
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I managed to battle in to Dublin city centre through the worst snow we have experienced in the last eight years.
The original entry in St. Peter's marriage register does NOT say whether Marianne or George had been married before. The only additional information is that they were married by consistorial licence. Whether that meant on the strength of the licence granted in London is unclear.
Didn't get a chance to investigate anything else.
As for the Pynes of Ballyvolane and other side lines, I have an extensive family tree. There is no clear link to the main family, but I still suspect a link to a side branch somewhere. Pyne is a very unusual name in Ireland; it is a so-called 'planter name', i.e. a name brought in by British settlers in the Elizabethan era who were given lands that had been seized from the Irish nobility.
Justin
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Hi Justin,
hope you are now warm and snug. Pity about the marriage certificate.
Did you see my post re Lt Pyne - does the record you have mention him being on the Renown?
best wishes
heywood
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Off to London in a few minutes!
Yes, Frederick served on HMS Renown for five years up to Septembet 1861.
Justin
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Good Morning Folks :)
I have been googleing massivly to try and find some more info on the members of this family, in the course of this I found another Pyne researcher, called Sarah, who has a lot of the Pyne Irish line in her tree, so I E-mailed her to see if she had any info which might help us. We have exchanged a couple of mails today - and I showed her this thread. Here are some bits from her replys to me which you may find interesting (I did ask her permission to post these :))
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My main source for Pyne information was a series of articles published in the Irish Genealogist by
HF Morris entitled "The Pynes of Cork" - Vol 6, no 6 November 1985 (and following issues - 3
articles in total). Irish Genealogist is available on CD-Rom in some libraries (like Auckland Central if
you're ever down this way?!) and in hardcopy at lots of others. I got a copy from Kensington Library
in London, but I'm sure there are others - your local library's reference section can point you in the
right direction. Dr Morris is also a Pyne descendent and I think I saw another article by him with
more details in a more recent IG - in the last year or two?
and
You may find a link in India - Dr Morris's articles have quite a bit of detail about the members of the
family who went out there. And had a few children on the wrong side of the blanket!
One other thought - have you sourced the Rowland name? In our family they're quite often the
mother's surname or the father's mother's surname. Eg my gggrandfather Jasper Pyne O'Callaghan
is named for his mother's mother's father (Jasper) and his mother's surname (Pyne) - his brother
Arthur Pyne O'C was named after the Arthur Pyne you keep finding. But a word of warning -
another gggrandfather Jonathan Muckleston Key after lots of searching turned out to have a middle
name from a rather rich family friend!
-----------------------------------------------------------
So more food for thought there - apparently Kensington Library has a copy of The Irish Genealogist, not sure where else does.
:)
DebbieG
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The airport was in complete chaos. Incoming flights being diverted, no flights leaving because the severe ice makes it too dangerous to bring fuel trucks close to the aircraft. So I did not make it to London.
Debbie - I'm sure I have corresponded with Sarah in the past. She has put a lot of the Pyne genealogy onto the web. Being in Dublin, I was easily able to track down those back issues of the Irish Genealogist. They were the primary source for the family tree I mentioned yesterday.
Unfortunately, there is no clear link from Henry Pyne at the end of the 16th century, who was given land by Sir Walter Raleigh, to Eliza or Marianne or William Lionel or my Charles Horace. Henry had several sons (one calledCharles even), but the main family tree runs through Nicholas, presumably the eldest son, and one of his female descndents whose took the name Pyne in order to be able to inherit the property at Ballyvolane or Waterpark. There were numerous Pyne cousins around in east Cork and some even in west Cork.
Justin
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Oh dear Justin, sorry to hear your plans for today went astray. :(
Interesting that you had already been in touch with Sarah, I was going through her website and found the mention of William Pyne (Captain) who was a younger brother of Arthur Pyne of Ballyvolane. It mentions that in 1783 he was Lieutenant in 103rd Regiment of Foot (King's Irish Infantry). I looked into the history of this regiment and they seem to have become an East India Regement. Sarah's site also mentions that he had a son William. Remembouring that George's father according to his marriage certificate was a civil servant in India, I was wondering about the India connection and whether the younger William could possibly have been William Lionel? just an idea
DebbieG
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Hello Justin,
sorry to hear about the airport situation and hope all goes well next time!
So Frederick Pyne was censused as Augustus Pyne. I had wondered the first time I saw it because of Ros's Julia Augusta. It makes you wonder whether the name Augustus/a was a family name or one decided on a whim- we may never know!
Am off thinking again now ::) where to next!
regards
Kath
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Hmm - still on the subject of a possible India connection I found this will in the PRO
Will of George Henbury Pine, Major General in the Service of the Honorable East India Company of Fort William Bengal , East Indies 23 June 1832
Possibly clutching at straws with the different spelling of the surname, but I thought I would show you
DebbieG
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Hello everyone,
just found this snippet for Julian re Frederick Pyne (at least we believe it is)
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PAYMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA297&dq=Lieutenant++Pyne+Renown&lr=#PPA297,M1
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Dear all
Not sure if you had picked up another Pyne Caldwell link, ie a marriage of a William Pyne and a Frances Caldwell Hales in St James, Westminster in 1842. Found reference in the BMD register and also in Moses Taylor Pyne's work. The latter reports them as having one son Leonard Hill Pyne.
The Caldwell middle name may be a co-incidence but thought you might be interested.
Have tried to tie in William Lionel in my records but no joy. The refererences to Hanover Square, Chelsea and Brighton above does seem to associate him with members of the East Down family with Devon roots . But he does not seem to tie in with the family as documented by Moses Taylor.
The closest link is with William, born 1798, baptised Hendon ,son of John Francis Pyne. William was a solicitor, and practiced for a time in Hanover Square, he married first, in Chelsea a Leah McQueen daughter of a family with links to Brighton, had four children , then married a second time to an Elizabeth Kirkpatrick in1836 and had 5 more children..
All the best
Jeremy
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Hi Jeremy
Yes I saw that marriage - they also had a license in the lists I was looking at
but I traced the Frances Cauldwell Hales line back and it doesn't seem to join into the Ralph Cauldwell one anywhere close. She was the daughter of George Hales who married Frances Caldwell in 1811 in Herefordshire, Frances Caldwell was the daughter of Henry Caldwell & Susanna and Henry seems to have been born in 1755 in Herefordshire, the other Cauldwell line comes from Norfolk.
There is a memorial to Frances & her son Leonard Pyne in Herefordshire
FRANCES CALDWALL PYNE / wife of WILLIAM PYNE Esq / daughter of the above / GEORGE and FRANCES HALES / Who departed this life / May 11 1854 aged 43 years / Also of
LEONARD HILL PYNE / only child of the above / WILLIAM and FRANCES CALDWALL PYNE / who departed this life / October 29th 1859 aged 16 years.
Yes I have looked at the John Francis Pyne line you mention (he was married 3 times as well), but this lot deffinitly seem to have a link to Ireland as well, very confusing
:-\
DebbieG
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One (of the many) things which are niggling at me is the mention so specifically in the census of Merrion Square by Marianne/Mary Ann.
1) It could be the truth.
2) She could be saying that because she is creating a privileged life for herself and her children.
3) There is a link to Merrion Square with Elizabeth, daughter of Arthur Pyne but this has been discounted- a legitimate link has anyway.
Over all my doubts though, is the knowledge that Rowena married so well and one can't imagine that her background would not have been investigated/ of interest to her in-laws before her marriage.
Enjoy your day/week
Kath
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Yes, and also Julia married Edward Colebrooke Miller whose grandfather was Major General James Miller, R.A. and great grandfather was Robert Colebrooke of Chilham Castle, Kent - a family of wealthy bankers.
By the way, the two witnesses on Julia and Edward's marriage cert. in July 1860, are Rowena Maria Pyne and George Caldwell. Does anybody know the wherabouts of George at the time of the 1861 census?
Ros.
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I agree, with the several 'good' marriages involved in this family, and the subsequent career of William Rowland, Marianne must have had either a good background herself, or if it is dodgy the 'partner' involved in the earlier offspring would have to be very high up indeed.
Hmmm who was hanging around Brighton in the late 1830s ???
DebbieG
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Yes, and also Julia married Edward Colebrooke Miller whose grandfather was Major General James Miller, R.A. and great grandfather was Robert Colebrooke of Chilham Castle, Kent - a family of wealthy bankers.
By the way, the two witnesses on Julia and Edward's marriage cert. in July 1860, are Rowena Maria Pyne and George Caldwell. Does anybody know the wherabouts of George at the time of the 1861 census?
Ros.
sorry Ros! I only mention Rowena because all the references online in 'books' are to her! Do you know I had completely forgotten the 'Rowland' part of the name which Debbie refers to, although that could be just a first name but there is also the Deedes part of Isabella's name ???
Can't see George in 1861 and I know he has beensearched for before. He died in Kent 2 years later, I think it says somewhere. I wonder if he was in Ireland? No way of finding out though :(
Ah well- more searching. :D
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Marianne Caldwell's Will:
She leaves an estate worth £4,114 10s 10d which includes two properties: "All that messuage Number 33 Thurloe Square, Brompton in the County of Middlesex" (see link)
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=50009#s13
and "All that leasehold messuage No. 6 Queens Terrace Windsor"
The only recipients in the will are:
"My two daughters Isabella the wife of The Reverand Samuel Buxton Smyth Rector of East Hanningfield near Chelmsford in the County of Essex and Rowena Maria the wife of Thomas Joseph Hercy of Cruchfield House Bracknell in the County of Berks Esquire"
also "Charles Isham Caldwell who will attain the age of Nineteen years on the thirteenth July One thousand eight hundred and eighty three"
She doesn't mention her relationship to Charles.
She states: "I have made no provision by this my will for any members of my family other than those before mentioned as I consider my Son William Rowland Pyne and my Daughters Julia Augusta the wife of Edward Colebrooke Miller Esquire Sophia Esther wife of Captain Adolph Von Grimm Anna Maria wife of Thomas French Laurence Esquire and Georgiana the wife of Bertram Mitford Pocklington Esquire are already well provided for"
She also mentions something about a Deed Poll under the hands and seals of her late husband (George Caldwell) and herself and of George Pyne and William Francis Ellaby dated 4 July 1846 and Indenture of Settlement dated 1844 made between George Pyne of the first part, herself as the second part and George Watts Ellaby and John Burnet Applebee of the third part.
Disappointedly, nothing about William Lionel Pyne.
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OOOOH - thank you so much for coming back and telling us - I was wondering how you were getting along. I have been looking a bit more at the various branches of the Pyne family trying to see where these might fit.
The will is really interesting, have I missed something or have we gained two daughters, Sophia Esther & Anna Maria? and lost Louisa.
Some more names to play with anyway.
:)
DebbieG
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Hi Debbie, Yes I hadn't got anything new until yesterday when we went to the Principal Registry at High Holborn to get the will. I was wondering if anybody knew about Anna Maria and Sophia Esther and also Charles Isham Caldwell.
I have found out Sophia Esther Caldwell was Christened on 14 July 1844, Gravesend, Kent. - Mother Marianne, Father George Caldwell. Also a birth register Mar. 1/4 1844, Kensington, Middx. I haven't found her marriage yet.
There's an Anna Maria Caldwell birth registered Sept. 1/4, 1845 ,Kensington, Middx. and she marries Thomas French Laurence Set. 1/4, 1873, Windsor, Berks. I've found her in the 1881 cencus and 1891 census, but the birth date is given as about 1848.
Regards, Ros.
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Anna Maria is mentioned in the other thread(s) of Justin's I am sure.
It is amazing that all this could be documented but not her first husband- you would think that he also would have left a will. ???
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This family is soo interesting, I just get the feeling we ought to be able to see how it all fits, but something is illuding us - back to Google, and Google books and the NA
:D
Debbie
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Charles Isham Caldwell married in 1887 to either Amy Mary A Garlick or Clara Kneebone. (no Charles Isham in censuses)
1891 RG12; Piece: 591; Folio 56; Page 33
Charles 'J' Caldwell b Brighton living with wife Clara and Francis son, living in Croydon, living on own means. Entry above is Richard Kneebone who is a retired Ironmonger.
1881 RG11; Piece: 1365; Folio: 40; Page: 74
possible for Charles Colwell - son of Alice - she is a widow and he is an apprentice in a factory :-\
Needless to say, I can't find much about this one either ::) found what may be the family in 1871 but again very ordinary! There are other children so you would wonder why Charles would be singled out. Not sure at all re the 1871 and 1881 but feel confident that 1891 is Charles.
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Hi Kath, Yes, I agree. He is "living on own means" in the 1901 census in Christchurch near Bournemouth with wife Clara and son Francis. I notice George Caldwell's mother was an "Isham", but whose son is Charles?
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Am trying to find out and getting very confused! Just refound Charles in 1891 when his year of birth is 1855 which wouldn't be in keeping with the will would it?
Will there ever be anything that is straightforward with this family ::) ::) ::)
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Marianne wrote in her 'Codicil' that Charles Isham was living with her in May 1883.
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He only seems to appear in 1891 and 1901 - after his legacy!
It is as though there was a big black hole in Brighton into which all these children disappeared after birth ;)
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In the print out of the 1891 census they say 1855, but if you look at the original you will see his age is 26 not 36, which would make his birth 1864 as he wouldn't be 27 until July.
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Lol, and I'm beginning to think William Lionel Pyne is fictitious ;D
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Hello Ladies,
I am really quite overwhelmed at the new daily revelations.
I spent an abortive morning at the National Archives here in Dublin. The only wills that survived the destruction of 1922 are well-documented and date from the 18th century or earlier. So no new leads at all.
The genealogical advisor did advise me to also to check Catholic baptism records too. Just because Marianne married George in an Anglican (Church of Ireland) church, we should not assume that she was born into a protestant family. I hope I can find the time to look through the appropriate microfilms for Merrion Square.
Anna Maria had cropped before. She had a son in 1876 who was named Reginald Vere Laurence. George's maternal grandfather was Vere Isham. On that basis, I had assumed that Anna Maria was probably another daughter of Marianne and George.
Now, back to Marianne's will. I did not expect it to throw up so much new information. It's good to see George mentioned again. Was he identified as her brother?
John Burnet Applebee is worth pursing. He witnessed Eliza's will and was also a witness at Virginia's wedding in 1855. He must have been a close family friend.
A quick google for Watts Ellaby indicated more Irish connections with George being a graduate of Trinity College. Hopefully, I can pursue more at this end.
George Caldwell had an elder brother, Henry Berney. Maybe Charles Isham was his grandson.
Off to do some more detective work.
Justin
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A John Burnett Applebee married Anna Eliza Frances Temple Jun qtr 1858 Kensington 1a 188.
They are here in 1861: RG9; Piece: 13; Folio: 38; Page: 69. (Sorry I can't transcribe, son has just woken up ::))
It looks like he then dies in 1865 (Sept qtr Kensington 1a 69)
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Hi Kath, Yes, I agree. He is "living on own means" in the 1901 census in Christchurch near Bournemouth with wife Clara and son Francis. I notice George Caldwell's mother was an "Isham", but whose son is Charles?
March 12, 1863:
CALDWELL On the 5th inst, George CALDWELL Esq second surviving son of the late Ralph CALDWELL Esq of Hilborowe Hall, Norfolk and grandson of the late Sir Justiniam Isham Bart., in the 57th year of his age.
Nov 12, 1887
CALDWELL-KNEEBONE On the 8th inst. at Christ Church, Broad Green, Croydon, by the Rev. O.B. Byers MA, vicar, Charles Isham CALDWELL of Woodside Croydon, to Clara, second daughter of RD Kneebone, of Croydon, formerly of Birmingham.
You could also have a look at Marianne's death duty entry. The reference should be checked as this copied quickly over a year ago..
1886 Caldwell, Marianne Bracknell (res.) Rowene M HERCY (exec.) 1220 PR W356
This should give the details of how the named people were related.
(Have been working with Justin on his line but have collected bits on this part of the line on the way. Am actually looking for a Fanny Stuart PYNE so if you come across one let me know please!)
Fiona
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You could also have a look at Marianne's death duty entry. The reference should be checked as this copied quickly over a year ago..
1886 Caldwell, Marianne Bracknell (res.) Rowene M HERCY (exec.) 1220 PR W356
This should give the details of how the named people were related.
Fiona
Thanks for that Fiona. We are going to Kew the week after next so will make a point of looking at the death duty registers.
With regard to George Caldwell, the index for the wills says his effects were under £200 - late of 1 Lower Belgrave Street in the County of Middx. dec. who died 5/3/1863 at 18 Wellington Cresc., Ramsgate in the County of Kent. Was proved at the Principal Registry by the oath of Louisa Mary Frances Ellis of 16 Bloomfield St., Paddington in Middx. Spinster - sole executrix. We didn't get his will.
That's interesting about the John Burnet Applebee connection.
I'm afraid Justin, that Marianne doesn't say what relation she is to George Pyne :(
Going back a bit - I did find the death of a Louisa Avoca Caldwell b. abt. 1844, Reg. 1867 Windsor, Berks. Mar. 1/4 Vol. 2c Page 293 aged 23. Maybe Charles Isham Caldwell was hers and he was living under the protection of Marianne. She does say he was living with her when she first wrote her will.
Regards. Ros
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In the IGI, Charles Isham CALDWELL is 23 at the time of marriage to Clara KNEEBONE (aged 21) which would make his date of birth c1864 and his father is noted as Charles CALDWELL. His middle name has been transcribed as 'Joham'
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Hi
I went digging on John Burnett Applebee, he keeps popping up and I can't help but feel he is connected/related some way. He was born abt 1788 in Fulham according to the census returns - I can't find a baptism for him in the IGI. I found him in the 1851 census given as unmarried then he married Anna Eliza Frances Temple (born 1809 Dover )and I found them in 1861 - with them is sister-in-law Mary Eliza Harborough aged 44 occupation 'Countess' born Buckingham Bucks. It says she is unmar, but it must mean widowed, because I then found this
4a. Caroline Honeywood, d. (-) 1 July ma 1807 EDWARD
TEMPLE..only son of the Rev Thomas Wm Temple , D.D. and had issue
1. COURTENAY GEORGE HENRY TEMPLE
2. ANNE ELIZA TEMPLE
3. MARY ELIZA TEMPLE d 1881..ma 1st 1843 ROBERT SHERARD 6th EARL of
HARBOROUGH(G>B>) 8th BARON SHERARD (Ireland)
2ndly April 20 1864 Major Thos Wm Claggitt
I am sure on one of Justin's threads there was a Horatio Claggitt as a possible father of Eliza's children, these two must be connected surely
DebbieG
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According to wikipedia, Robert - the 8th Earl of Harborough - died in 1859 (the earl title also died then.)
Has anyone looked at Courtney Temple?
Added: looks like Courtenay Temple married Julia Ellen Bird in 1858 (Maidstone 2a 747)
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Lovely to have fresh eyes as I am getting very confused with all these other names! I just love - 'he was a count' etc! Brilliant!
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Ros - would you mind please looking out for the death duty due of Eliza's estate? Hopefully, we will get some clue to George Pyne's place of residence!
Horatio Clagett had an elder brother named Thomas William Clagett!
This web of intrigue is becoming ever more infathomable.
Justin
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Ros - would you mind please looking out for the death duty due of Eliza's estate? Hopefully, we will get some clue to George Pyne's place of residence!
Horatio Clagett had an elder brother named Thomas William Clagett!
This web of intrigue is becoming ever more infathomable.
Justin
Reference For Eliza's death duty is PC3 588
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With regard to George Caldwell, the index for the wills says his effects were under £200 - late of 1 Lower Belgrave Street in the County of Middx. dec. who died 5/3/1863 at 18 Wellington Cresc., Ramsgate in the County of Kent. Was proved at the Principal Registry by the oath of Louisa Mary Frances Ellis of 16 Bloomfield St., Paddington in Middx. Spinster - sole executrix. We didn't get his will.
Does anyone know who Louisa Mary Frances Ellis was??
DebbieG
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Seems to have been born in Jun qtr 1839 Bath 11/17 whoever she is!!
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Yes, of course I'll look up Eliza's death duty record, Justin - and thanks Fiona for the reference. Ros
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With regard to George Caldwell, the index for the wills says his effects were under £200 - late of 1 Lower Belgrave Street in the County of Middx. dec. who died 5/3/1863 at 18 Wellington Cresc., Ramsgate in the County of Kent. Was proved at the Principal Registry by the oath of Louisa Mary Frances Ellis of 16 Bloomfield St., Paddington in Middx. Spinster - sole executrix. We didn't get his will.
Does anyone know who Louisa Mary Frances Ellis was??
DebbieG
Guess what? No sign of Louisa Mary Frances Ellis after her birth in 1839- now why am I not surprised ::) ::) ::)
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The only Louisa Ellis I could spot which could be an outside possibility is a Louisa Ellis in 1841 living in London with father Robert- Army born India and mother and siblings not born in county. ???
Perhaps she needs to be shelved for a while. ;)
Is it just me or is anyone else confused with all these names that have been put into the pot ??? I'll just have to work my way back through the threads.
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OK - I have really tried on this one this week, and I have come up with a theory, but I can’t find all the evidence to either prove or disprove it. I thought I would put it on here and see what others think. I would welcome comments.
First I don’t think either William Lionel Pyne or Charles Horatio Pyne exist, I do think we are looking at births/baptisms of children to single mothers Eliza and Marianne Pyne. I can’t think of any reason other than that for the fathers name not to appear on the baptism records - even if he was away at sea or in the army I think the record would still include his name, plus the fact that Marianne seems to change her mind as to wether he is called William or John! And Eliza in her will asks Horatio Claggitt to have a care for her children.
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I found a reference to a document in Cornwall RO which mentions both John Burnett Applebee and two members of the Pyne family, William Pyne and Nathaniel Pyne, who appear to have been land agents for the Wellesley family. This document says that Nathaniel is William’s son, but I think in fact he was his brother.
Notes on Nathaniel Pyne
NATHANIEL PYNE
Marriages:
Spouse: HARRIOT SARAH MATHEW
Marriage: 20 FEB 1836 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London,
1851 St Ives Cornwall
Natheniel Pyne 50 land steward born Islington Middx
Harriet Pyne 45 born Mddx Islington
Selinda Mathews 26 neice vistor born Mddx Hackney
Jane King 32
1861 St Ives Cornwall
Nathaniel Pyne 60 land steward born Holbourn Middx
Harriet Pyne 58 born Middx London
Selina Matthews 35 neice unmar born Mddx Dalston
Ann Warinnington 31
Name: Nathaniel Pyne
Birth: abt 1801
Death: Jun 1866 - Penzance, Cornwall
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This would be the Nathaniel baptised at Holbourn
NATHANIEL PYNE
Birth: 03 AUG 1799
Christening: 24 JAN 1800 Saint Andrew, Holborn, London, England
Father: JOHN PYNE
Mother: ELIZABETH
He is the son of Francis John Pyne and his second wife Elizabeth Harvey White and brother of William Pyne the solicitor, who was at one time a friend of Disraelis (I have more notes on this William but they aren’t needed here).
Francis John Pyne was married 3 times
1st (1791) to Priscilla Darnell - 1 daughter Priscilla Pyne (b1792)
2nd to Elizabeth Harvey White, they had John Pyne (b1797)
William Pyne (from Jeremy)
Nathaniel Pyne (b 1799)
Elizabeth Pyne (b1800)
Thomas Pyne (b 1803)
Frederick Pyne (b 1804)
3rd (1809) to Mary Dillman Engleheart - this was the will that Ros found, it names her 4 children including daughter Marianne, - who never married and lived most of her life in Leamington, though in 1901 she is with her sister-in-law Sophia in Kew. Whilst it is just possible that Francis John could also have had Eliza and George, I can’t see that he is likely to have had 2 daughters called Marianne. He died in 1830 and is buried in Bunhill Fields London - there is no will for him in the PCC.
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So somebody closely related to Francis John then. According to the IGI he was the eldest son of John Pyne and Mary Craze and though he was born in Exeter they moved to London soon after, John Pyne (the elder) is a leather dresser and seller, according to a tree found on ancestry they also had Thomas Pyne (who eventually went to the USA) and the artist William Henry Pyne. I investigated Thomas, but he and family moved to the USA in the late 1820s and are fairly well documented thanks to their descendent Moses Taylor Pyne (who was very very rich).
So that left William Henry Pyne a noted artist and writer, who although he often wrote anecdotes about other people of his day , seems to have remained very quiet about his own family. His fortunes also fluctuated wildly and he was declared bankrupt and imprisoned at least once. He died in 1843 in Paddington (again no PCC will). I have found that he married in 1792 to Dorothy Pearse and that he certainly had a son George in about 1800 who was also a painter and a son Charles Claude Pyne (also a painter). My theory is that Marianne & Eliza are also children of William Henry. For, this theory is the Paddington connection, William Henry died in Paddington in 1843, Eliza & Marianne first appear having children baptised in a Paddington church, Eliza was still living in Paddington when she died and Paddington is one of the areas lost from the 1841 census. The names for various members of this family do seem to relate, the timing is right, and as to Mariannes birthplace of Ireland, William Henry illustrated a book on costume of the British Isles and may have visited Ireland to make some of the drawings, he could have taken his wife with him.
Against this theory is some anecdotal evidence I have found about George who has the dubious distinction to be the second person to be divorced in this country under the new 1850s laws. He was married first to Esther Varley (I noted Marianne had a daughter called Esther), but treated her so badly she divorced him in 1858, this is part of the quote I have found
There appear to have been no depths of infamy to which this creature could not sink. Though wedded to a woman as comely as she was accomplished, and as fondly devoted to him as wife could be until his habits made him an object loathsome to every decent-minded person, he used to leave her for the worst sinks of vice ; whence he had repeatedly to be redeemed, his clothes and everything he had having been pawned or sold for the wherewithal to carry
on his debauch.
Now there are two side to all stories in divorces, but if the above is true would Marianne have named him in what were financial transactions, or Eliza in her will?. If a document can be found that defines George’s place of residence after 1852 as Oxford then I will be fairly sure we have a link, he married again there and had several children by his second wife, dying there in 1884.
What does anyone think ?
DebbieG
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I think I agree with you Debbie. It does seem odd that nowhere is there any record of these men and as you say- being absent does not mean that they are not entered on a baptism record. I have wondered if there would be any other clues in those baptism registers. I think Ros has tried to find them before.
I think I saw that Applebee document earlier - was it a whole list of people and legal bits- I am sorry to say I couldn't work my way through it!
You have worked very hard with your theories. I'm not sure about the relevance just yet.
Sometimes, I think I recall, Marianne was also Mary Ann but she is constant in her birthplace of Ireland as was Eliza. If the George we found is also their brother he too gives Ireland as birth place. Marianne married George Caldwell in Ireland so there is a fairly strong connection.
Even though I am sorely tempted re the illegitimate births etc- I still find it hard to believe that the children could all marry into families of standing as they did.
Good work :D
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Now there are two side to all stories in divorces, but if the above is true would Marianne have named him in what were financial transactions, or Eliza in her will?. If a document can be found that defines George’s place of residence after 1852 as Oxford then I will be fairly sure we have a link, he married again there and had several children by his second wife, dying there in 1884.
George Pyne is in 1861,1871 and 1881 census in Oxford but I'm not sure where that link takes us ???
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What we need to do is prove (or disprove) that it is that George Pyne who is the brother of Marianne and Eliza, and not the other one which has been suggested.
:-\
DebbieG
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Re Eliza's place of birth as Ireland - I don't think we have any record that gives her place of birth - she died in 1843 in Paddington and has not been found in the 1841 census as far as I am aware. I am questioning wether the George Pyne born Cork Ireland is in fact the George that was brother of Marianne & Eliza, so far that has not been proven.
As to the standing of the children and their future marriages/professions I think some of that must depend upon Mariannes 'partner' in the earlier children parentage
But as I said just a theory - and up for discussion
:)
DebbieG
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I realise this is a digression but am posting for the interest value. Googling books for Horatio Claggett brings this :
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZeoIAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA673&dq=horatio+claggett&lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES#PPA673,M1
This is an easier version of the report which I was trying to read elsewhere in books- sadly I am an impatient reader and want to scan it very quickly so I kept getting lost in the longer version.
Anyway briefly, it is a report re the will of Charles Day the father in law of Horatio- a very wealthy man. He added codicils to his will. It was revealed at a very late stage that he had 3 illegitimate children.
I am not implying that these children are anything to do with our people but just to say it happened :o :o :o
Just noticed too that Horatio was born in Brighton :P
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I suspected, and indeed hoped, that Eliza and Marianne were somehow related to the artist WHP - I ordered his death certiificate hoping that either Eliza, Marianne or someone recognisable had registered the death. Alas, it was merely his doctor, not even one of his known sons.
Eliza lived in Belgravia (!!) for an unknown period in the 1830s, soon after the expensive district had been developed. WHP had no money to pay for such a residence, nor to provide the sort of wealth suggested in Eliza's will. Neither did Horatio Clagett. I recall reading that Carlton Villas was built in the early '40s, just before Eliza moved in. The house in itself would have been an expensive house to purchase and furnish.
It remains a nice theory, but sadly there is no evidence to support it.
I think we all agree that we need to identify and locate the mysterious brother George.
Justin
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Caroline Claggett was left an annuity by her father independently of her husband. He is on the census as an annuitant at one point and living off his property at another so I think he had some money.
Mr Day on the other hand had a fortune!
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Re Eliza's place of birth as Ireland - I don't think we have any record that gives her place of birth - she died in 1843 in Paddington and has not been found in the 1841 census as far as I am aware. I am questioning wether the George Pyne born Cork Ireland is in fact the George that was brother of Marianne & Eliza, so far that has not been proven.
As to the standing of the children and their future marriages/professions I think some of that must depend upon Mariannes 'partner' in the earlier children parentage
But as I said just a theory - and up for discussion
:)
DebbieG
I thought that the 1841 which was found b Ireland was being accepted as Eliza :-\
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Hello everybody,
I feel there's a bit if a lull now - we have nothing much to go on really now so it is difficult. Also, I always feel that as the relatives aren't mine, there is a sense of intrusion into someone else's heritage so it's knowing when to stop interfering!
I would really need someone to work through all these new names- I am quite lost.
Re the Claggetts:
The Thomas W named earlier is I think the nephew to Horatio who is of some importance here but Thomas may be nothing to do with the search. However he does seem to be the administrator in the matter of creditors etc.
Horatio however b 1798 is of an age to have fathered the children of Eliza as has been mooted in the past.
Additionally he is the son in law of a man who had 3 illegitimate children and that makes me wonder if Charles Day is the father of either Eliza and co (or Eliza's children)? However somewhere in the legal references I think I read that they had guardians so may be named somewhere. Just remembered too that he died 1833ish and I think some of Eliza's children were born later than this?
Caroline Day was born c 1812.
Horatio and Caroline were married by 1841.
Lastly, I wondered if the will of Lt Pyne could be traced. I don't think it is on NA site as he died post 1858 and am unsure as to whether they have those wills.
I accept that this - like lots of other stuff we have posted is very tenuous but at the moment that's where I am going. Illegitimacy must not have been the stigma we imagine if that is the case with Eliza, Marianne and families.
regards
heywood
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Please do carry on 'interfering'. I am indebted to all of you for the numerous new revelations regarding the Pyne family. These are people who lived and died a long time ago, so I feel no sense of intrusion whatsoever.
Thomas Wiliam was Horatio Clagett's elder brother; both being the sons of Horatio Clagett senior, who was born in Maryland in 1756, fought in the American Revolutionary War, but settled in England after 1783.
Which Lt. Pyne are you referring to? Lt. Frederick P did die too late for the will to be available online. I was wondering whether other naval records regartding pay, pensions, etc. may cast some more light on his background. Might it even confirm the existence of the elusive Capt. Charles Horatio Pyne?
Lt. George Pyne, however, died in 1857. There is no will for him either, although a search through the NA catalogue does reveal a file about monies owed to his widow.
Although illegitimacy may well be the answer, we cannot loose sight of the fact that many records are not available online. Lack of Irish records and limited access to other colonial records really hamper the research.
Re the 1841 census and Eliza, I have tentatively accepted that the married woman living on independent means at 27 Grosvenor Place (Belgravia) is my Eliza. If I can eventually find a baptism for Virgina (b. 1832/33), it may confirm this.
One point I forgot regarding the theory of William Henry Pyne being Eliza's and Marianne's father. I would have thought that Eliza would have named one of three sons William.
All the best to you all,
Justin
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Thanks Justin
Phew! That's OK then!
I did mean Lt Frederick Pyne's will which would have to be applied for. Thanks re explanation of Horatio and Thomas William - that T W is the father of the younger Horatio. I had seen references to them in the London Gazette which I find an interesting site!
good luck
Kath
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Hi
I haven't given up yet, still hunting around. Did Ros say she was going to Kew? This document might be worth a look, the reference is for a Chancery Court Pleading, I am not sure what sort of info might be in it, but the on-line site says it is sotred off site and requires 3 days notice for production
C 14/887 Pleadings (by P plaintiffs) started or revived in 1848. Described at item level
Scope and content 1848 P87.
Pyne v Applebee. Bill, answer, replication
Covering dates 1848
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal
Held by The National Archives, Kew
DebbieG
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Hi everyone, Yes, I'm going to Kew next week. At least the parking there is free unlike last week when I went to the Principal Registry in Holborn, which cost me £8 congestion charge and £32 car parking, plus petrol and 1.3/4 hrs. to get there! Did manage to visit Dr. Johnson's house and see Dickens' "Hard Times" at the Brides Lane Theatre all in the same day though, which made up for it. 8)
I'll see if I can sort this Chancery Court Pleading thing - I'll ring them in advance if that's possible. I shall also be looking at the Death Registers of Eliza and Marianne (hopefully).
Thanks for all your hard work. It is really appreciated. I seem to be lacking one or two links in connection with Caldwell/Pyne. I need to catch up! I have the following - can anyone please supply me with any others:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,189087.msg928339.html#msg928339
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,271110.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,322249.15.html
Thank you once again. Ros
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Hello Ros,
Are you planning to spend the day at Kew? Would you have the time (or the inclination) to search through some naval records for William Lionel and Charles Horatio? I was wondering how time-consuming it would be to look through pay and/or pension records.
I'm still just clinging on to the belief that these two men did exist.
Justin
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Hi Justin,
I'll add it to my list! I never seem to get on very well with the Navy or Army Lists. I've looked recently through the Index Cards for Royal Naval Officers and Royal Artillery Officers for William Lionel and others and found nothing! I'll have a look for Charles Horatio though.
We are going to Hawthorn Hill, Bray, Berks. on Thursday to look for Cruchfield House where Marianne lived for a while and died. Might at some stage go to the Berkshire Record Office in Reading to look at, amongst others things, burials - to see where she was buried. One of William Rowland's daughters and two of Julia Augusta's sons were born in the Windsor area and there's also a Louisa Avoca Caldwell who died in the Reg. Dist. of Windsor, so I would like to see that.
I'm not giving up hope either. William Rowland named his first son Lionel and Julia named her second son Lionel also.
Regards. Ros.
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Thanks, Ros.
I have trawled through the Navy Lists for most of the 1830s and found nothing. If CHP was in the navy it must have been somewhat earlier. I am not entirely sure when the Navy Lists start. Having read through the research guides on the NA site, I think the pay or pension records may prove more fruitful.
I agree the children seemed pretty convinced that they had been told the names of their real fathers.
I do envy you being able to go to all these places. I now have a new job, but it will be up in Heysham near Morecambe - a long, long way from London.
Rgds,
Justin
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Congratulations on the new job Justin! A bit of a change but you must follow the work.
Kath
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Just a footnote on Ltn George Pyne . Had folk registered that he appears to have had two children with his wife Mary Eliza Dixon (married 1847). These were Edward Ernest b Dudley in c 1849 (also entered the navy) and Arthur Augustus b Stoke Damerel (ie Plymouth dockyard area). The latter married an Ellen Binney and divorced in 1893.
Apologies if this is covering existing ground.
Jeremy
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This is the chap born Ireland who is possibly brother? Interesting that he also has the name Augustus for his child ???
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Thanks Jeremy, I have noted his two sons. One, possibly both of them, joined the navy (or the marines).
Yes, this is the George who may be the missing brother.
Justin
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Hi, I've ordered the Chancery Court Pleading document (which needed 3 days notice) re: Pyne v Applebee and am hopefully going to Kew on Friday to view it.
Had a productive day last week in Berkshire. Found Marianne Caldwell's memorial - a 10' high marble cross with a large base. It is the "Family vault of Thomas Joseph Hercy, Esq. of Cruchfield House, Berks." She was buried with her daur. Rowena, son-in-law Thomas and their 5 children at the Parish Church of St. Mary, Winkfield (near Hawthorn Hill). It states "This tomb with remains therein was moved from Kensal Green 1935 - Alex MacDonald & Co. Ltd., Euston Rd. N.W." Marianne's inscription states: "Marianne, widow of George Caldwell, Esq. Hilboro' Norfolk who died at Cruchfield House, Berks. on the 20th December 1885 aged 78 years".
In Nearby Hawthorn Hill we visited Cruchfield House - a classical, early nineteenth-century mansion and then 6 Queens Terrace in King's Road, Windsor. This is a 4 storey gothic style town house built about 1849 and it overlooks the Long Walk in front of Windsor Castle.
Regards. Ros
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- Sound like you a great day Ros :)
Thanks for keeping us updated, I was wondering how you were getting on. I have been tracking down members of the Ellaby family to see if they can offer us any clues, the two mentioned in Marianne's will were cousins, so if there is a relationship it must be back 2 or 3 generations I think :-\
Great news on the job too Justin
:)
DebbieG
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Hello Ros,
The Berkshire outing must have been most enjoyable. Did you take any snaps?
I really hope that the next trip to the NA will be equally productive.
Would you perhaps have time to dig out Lt. Frederick Pyne's passing certificate? Here's what the NA research guide has to say:
They often provide information about a man's service prior to the examination and sometimes have supporting papers such as certificates of birth or baptism.
Lieutenants' passing certificates can be found in ADM 6 , ADM 13 and ADM 107 . A nominal index to these records can be found in B. Pappalardo's Royal Navy Lieutenants' Passing Certificates, 1691-1902 (List and Index Society, volumes 289-290) located amongst the Supplementary Finding Aids in the Research Enquiries Room.
He was promoted on 6 Sep 1852.
Lt. George Pyne often returned to lodgings in Pimlico between postings. Fingers crossed that you can find a matching address in death duty registers.
We're pretty relieved about the job.
Rgds, Justin
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thanks for the update and the day sounds impressive.
I can't quite remember ::) about the Ellabys but may be another clue- whose cousins were they?
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Hello everyone,
Thank you all for your time and interest :)
We will need to make a couple or more trips to Kew to see what we can find, so if we don't have time this time, Justin, re. Frederick, we will try the next time. Everything seems to take so long there. We don't usually get there until midday and then it closes at 5pm. We let our Readers tickets elapse from 5 years ago, so need to renew them in order to view some of the records.
Yes, we did take photos. I don't know whether I'm allowed to post them on here or whether that's possible. Does anybody know?
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Hi Everyone, Went to Kew yesterday and here are my findings:
The Will of John Pyne dated 8 Mar 1833 (written 14 Mar 1828)
Formerly of Beddington in the County of Surrey, then of Charlton House near Wantage in the County of Berks. but late of Clapton in the County of Middlesex, esq.
He names:
Wife:
Mary Dilman Pyne (all effects, furniture, properties, etc.)
Daughters: (£1,000 each)
Priscilla Chervet (? spelling)
Hannah Rankin, wife of George Nicholas Rankin, (In 1840 and 1843 residing at Aurora (?Spelling) near Buffalo in Erie County, State of New York, USA)
Elizabeth Pyne (later altered to Eliza in an Admon. dated 8 Mar 1833)
Lucy Pyne
Marianne Pyne
Admon. was granted to Eliza Pyne, spinster, the natural and lawful daughter and a legatee, to administer to Executor Mary Dilman Pyne widow the relict and residuary legatee.
No sons are mentioned.
In an Admon. dated 9 May 1840, John L'Estrange, the lawful Attorney of Hannah Rankin is appointed to administer the legacy as it had been left unadministered.
In An Admon. dated 19 June 1843, Eliza Pyne, Spinster, has died. A new attorney is appointed - Henry John Hunter, esq. the lawful attorney of Hannah Rankin, as John L'Estrange has also died.
Chancery Court Pleading: Pyne v Applebee
Between George Pyne and Mary Eliza his wife by Edward Dixon her next friend and defendants John Burnet Applebee and Alfred Green.
Humbly complaining - George Pyne of No. 14 Francis Street, Woolwich, Kent, a Lieut. in H. M. Royal Navy and Mary Eliza Pyne the wife of George Pyne by Edward Dixon of Dudley, Worcestershire, Esq., her next friend, that an Indenture dated 14 Aug 1847 was duly made and executed by and between George Pyne and Mary Eliza Dixon, spinster and John Burnet Applebee of Nottingham Street, Marylebone, Middx., Gentleman and Alfred Green of 11 Sackville Street, Piccadilly, Middx., Gentleman, defendants, made previous to the marriage of George Pyne and Mary Eliza Dixon.
Complaints of George Pyne, Mary Eliza and Edward Dixon her next friend are that John B. Applebee and Alfred Green ask to be discharged from being Trustees and that an Indenture dated 14 Aug 1847 did not contain any powers to appoint new trustees.
That's the gist of it.
I had more problems trying to get Marianne's Caldwell's and Eliza Pyne's death duty registers.
The referencing there is so complicated and I wasn't able to use the ones that you kind people gave me. I eventually found the one I need for Marianne, which is IR27/463 but it was gone 4 o'clock by then and last orders for documents is 4pm. I was unable to find Eliza's, but will have another look hopefully next Wednesday.
Hope some of this info. is helpful to you.
Regards, Ros.
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Ohh Ros
What interesting finds, the first thing that springs out to me is that it seems pretty certain now that the George Pyne who was born in Cork and married Mary Ann Dixon is the brother George who is referred to by both the sisters, I think the involvement of John Burnett Applebee clinches that. I think from memory Justin had his marriage certificate and his father was named as George Pyne in India, off to see if I can find anything else.
:)
DebbieG
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Thanks Debbie, I feel sure that EVENTUALLY all will be revealed 8) :)
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Thanks Debbie, I feel sure that EVENTUALLY all will be revealed 8) :)
I hope so! You are working so hard- all this effort but it is looking promising!
best wishes
Kath
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Thanks Kath, Well you have all given me a bit of an incentive!
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here is Debbie's post re Francis John Pyne
He is the son of Francis John Pyne and his second wife Elizabeth Harvey White and brother of William Pyne the solicitor, who was at one time a friend of Disraelis (I have more notes on this William but they aren’t needed here).
Francis John Pyne was married 3 times
1st (1791) to Priscilla Darnell - 1 daughter Priscilla Pyne (b1792)
2nd to Elizabeth Harvey White, they had John Pyne (b1797)
William Pyne (from Jeremy)
Nathaniel Pyne (b 1799)
Elizabeth Pyne (b1800)
Thomas Pyne (b 1803)
Frederick Pyne (b 1804)
3rd (1809) to Mary Dillman Engleheart - this was the will that Ros found, it names her 4 children including daughter Marianne, - who never married and lived most of her life in Leamington, though in 1901 she is with her sister-in-law Sophia in Kew. Whilst it is just possible that Francis John could also have had Eliza and George, I can’t see that he is likely to have had 2 daughters called Marianne. He died in 1830 and is buried in Bunhill Fields London - there is no will for him in the PCC.
??? ??? ???
Interesting: :-\
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/john-cox-dillman-engleheart-1784-1862-1-c-2jfbhntn5v
SO the will is not for 'our' Pynes :'( Marianne is alive and well in Leamington Warwickshire :(
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Yes, that's right. I've worked out that John had Priscilla and Hannah with his first wife - Priscilla Darnell, John, Nathaniel, Elizabeth (Eliza), Thomas & Frederick with his second wife - Elizabeth Harvey White, and Augustus, Lucy, Alfred and Marianne with his third wife - Mary Dillman Engleheart. Perhaps Jeremy knows where William fits in?
I had a little laugh at the link you posted of the 'left eye' of Mary Dillman Engleheart ;D ;D
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Yes I had a smile at the 'eye' picture, given the number of artists in this family I am surprised we havn't found more pictures of the people involved.
I have been fishing in the India records and I found this on Lucy
- I think she may have been a daughter from the second marriage rather than the third
Name: Lucy Pine
Marriage: 25 - Sep 1838
Spouse: J.W. Woodcock
Notes: At Byculla, J.W. Woodcock, Esq., civil service, to Lucy Pine, daughter of the late John Pine, Esq., of Charlton, Berks.Transcribed by: FIBISIndia Office Records Reference:
Source name: East India RegisterSource year: 1839Source edition: 2Presidency: Bombay
Interesting about Hannah going to the US, I vary travelled family
DebbieG
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Just to answer the question above, William was the second son of John Francis and Elizabeth White, ie after John b 1797, William was born 3 May 1798, baptised at Hendon, went to Eton, became an attorney etc.
With his third wife the dates I have are;
Augustus Vicar of Horning Norfolk 1810
Lucy March 1812 (married John Woodcock in Bombay)
Alfred - Vicar of Royden Essex July 1813
Marianne December 1816 (born Beddington, unmarried ,died 1907)
Edward Manners Dillman (vicar of Bawdsey Norfolk) July 1820
Jeremy
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I'm sorry to be a nuisance and putting a dampner on all this -but am I right in that these are not the family we are looking for?
Please explain - I'm a bit puzzled ???
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No Heywood, they can't be cos their Marrianne never married and there's no George
Hi Jeremy - if you are still around, do you have anything on any George Pyne in India?
DebbieG
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I did realise that they weren't so thought we should now be 'putting them to bed'.
Theoretically, Eliza, George and Marianne may still be illegitimate or their children may be / probably are illegitimate unless, as was mooted some time ago, both sisters married Pynes.
I have been wondering since I first posted the info whether Mr Charles Day was the father of some of these people here. If he was, and there were illegitimate children, that may be why Horatio Claggett was involved in Eliza's children's aftercare and Eliza did call a child Charles - I'm going off the old Lancashire premise here that 'I may as well say it as think it' ;D
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In reply to Debbie's question above about a George Pyne in India, the best I can come up with is Major General George Hanbury Pine, he entered the forces in 1780 as a cadet, became a Colonel in 1814 and Mjr General in 1821. His eldest daughter, Georgina married a Captain Colton in Calcutta in 1828 (Gentlemans Magazine). He Died in Barrackpore in India in 1831. His widow was an Ann Antoinette Pine (had a residence in Manchester St London). Only other ref I had to children is to another daughter Mary Jane .
One slight co-incidence to the family of interest here was George had a brother a Lieutenant Horace Pine. I note one of Elza, sister of Marianne was in theory married to a Charles Horace and one of Eliza's children, born in 1829 was also called Horace.
Another trail to follow possibly?
Jeremy
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In reply to Debbie's question above about a George Pyne in India, the best I can come up with is Major General George Hanbury Pine, he entered the forces in 1780 as a cadet, became a Colonel in 1814 and Mjr General in 1821. His eldest daughter, Georgina married a Captain Colton in Calcutta in 1828 (Gentlemans Magazine). He Died in Barrackpore in India in 1831. His widow was an Ann Antoinette Pine (had a residence in Manchester St London). Only other ref I had to children is to another daughter Mary Jane .
One slight co-incidence to the family of interest here was George had a brother a Lieutenant Horace Pine. I note one of Elza, sister of Marianne was in theory married to a Charles Horace and one of Eliza's children, born in 1829 was also called Horace.
Another trail to follow possibly?
Jeremy
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Hello all,
Great work at the NA. Thank you Ros. I can hardly wait for the next visit.
Alfred Green of Sackville Street was the other witness to Eliza Pyne's will.
Are we now a hair's breadth away from proving that Lt. George Pyne was the mysterious brother?
I wonder what that indenture from 1847 was all about?
From what I can gather most of the Church of Ireland parish records for Cork (George's birthplace) were destroyed, so we may never find a baptism for George or Eliza.
Anyone know how to research the career of a civil servant, the profession of Lt. Pyne's father, George senior?
Justin
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Hi,
My main reason for looking at the will of John Francis/Francis John Pyne was see if he had a son Lionel William/William Lionel, as there does seem to be a lot of interchanging of first and second names ::) ::) ::)
Thank you, Jeremy, re: the info. on William b. 1798
Anyway, to move on - You sound as excited as I am, Justin. Can't wait to get to Kew again!!
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Dear Ros,
I am sorry if I seemed to be critical! I just got a bit lost amid the names as you say! I was hoping that he was the father of the girls and thought he was until I looked back over the posts and realised about Marianne ::) Then I was so disappointed.
Good luck with the next bit :)
Kath
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Don't worry, Kath, I know the feeling! Here I am at 12.45am and just finished scrolling through all the Pynes on the National Archives website - How sad is that!! ::). Ros.
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Ros,
I've been down that same sad path myself many months ago. Have you browsed all the references in A2A as well? Then you can be classified as really sad!
It would have been interesting to have been related to the Frederick Pyne who mapped various parts of Sierra Leone.
Do you think you'll be able to track down the death duty info for Eliza? Lt. George Pyne died some 30 years before Marianne, so his address may not appear in her death duty entry.
Do we know John Applebee's occupation? I see that his address in Marylebone (15 Nottingham Street) was very close to Harley House (the Day residence), albeit a stone's throw from the Marylebone workhouse.
Justin
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Guess what - he's 'Independent' ::) in 1851
HO107; Piece: 1488; Folio: 241; Page: 76
he is living alone aged 63 yrs. :(
After his marriage he is a 'freeholder'
1861 RG9; Piece: 13; Folio: 38; Page: 69
can't see him in 1841
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Hi - I did some tracking after John Burnett Applebee a couple of weeks ago when he came up.
He went to Oxford as quite a mature student, John s/o Charles James of Fulham Middx, arm. St Mays Hall, matric 13th March 1818 aged 30.
He appears to have had a brother Henry who went to Cambridge
Adm. (age 18) at TRINITY, June 24, 1812. S. of Charles. Born at Putney, London. School, Charterhouse.
Matric. Michs. 1812; B.A. 1819; M.A. 1823. Ord. deacon June 10, 1827.
Vicar of Whissendine, Rutland, 1846-64. Died there Aug. 11, 1864, aged 71.
Henry didn't marry as far as I can find.
DebbieG
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Great stuff Debbie. Thanks. I couldn't find anything on him.
Do none of these men earn an honest living? There does seem to have been a lot of money sloshing around the place.
I wonder did John inherit substantial sums of money from his father?
I'm scratching my head trying to think of a common link apart from wealth and locality.
Justin
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You and me both Justin, I keep picking up little clues and thinking Ah ha and then following them up to find they don't lead anywhere.
Incidently Whissendine where Johns brother Henry was vicar was largely owned by Robert Sherard 6th Earl Harborough whose wife was Mary E (nee Temple) ( who afterwards married Clagget) the sister of Anna Eliza Frances Temple who eventually married John Burnett Applebee.
Also Francis Ellaby the father of William Francis Ellaby who is mentioned in Marianne's will married his first wife Martha Floare there - but I still can't quite make any of it join up :-\
DebbieG
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Gosh Debbie- you do do well :D
They are certainly intertwined - perhaps just money and same circles!
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Hi Justin,
I feel sure John Burnett Applebee was in the legal profession. I think that's him dying Sept 1/4 1865 Kensington Vol. 1a Page 69. Alfred Green also appears as a witness on Marianne's Will and he signs himself as Clerk to Mr.Charles William John Baker of 11 Sackville Street, to whom Marianne assigns the premises 'subject to the proviso for redemption therein mentioned' in an indenture dated 4 Nov 1885.
I agree that it's very unlikely I shall find anything new on the death duty register of Marianne, but hopefully if I can find Eliza's, we will get George's address.
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Good Morning Folks :)
I have been googleing massivly to try and find some more info on the members of this family, in the course of this I found another Pyne researcher, called Sarah, who has a lot of the Pyne Irish line in her tree, so I E-mailed her to see if she had any info which might help us. We have exchanged a couple of mails today - and I showed her this thread. Here are some bits from her replys to me which you may find interesting (I did ask her permission to post these :))
-------------------------------------------------
My main source for Pyne information was a series of articles published in the Irish Genealogist by
HF Morris entitled "The Pynes of Cork" - Vol 6, no 6 November 1985 (and following issues - 3
articles in total). Irish Genealogist is available on CD-Rom in some libraries (like Auckland Central if
you're ever down this way?!) and in hardcopy at lots of others. I got a copy from Kensington Library
in London, but I'm sure there are others - your local library's reference section can point you in the
right direction. Dr Morris is also a Pyne descendent and I think I saw another article by him with
more details in a more recent IG - in the last year or two?
and
You may find a link in India - Dr Morris's articles have quite a bit of detail about the members of the
family who went out there. And had a few children on the wrong side of the blanket!
One other thought - have you sourced the Rowland name? In our family they're quite often the
mother's surname or the father's mother's surname. Eg my gggrandfather Jasper Pyne O'Callaghan
is named for his mother's mother's father (Jasper) and his mother's surname (Pyne) - his brother
Arthur Pyne O'C was named after the Arthur Pyne you keep finding. But a word of warning -
another gggrandfather Jonathan Muckleston Key after lots of searching turned out to have a middle
name from a rather rich family friend!
-----------------------------------------------------------
So more food for thought there - apparently Kensington Library has a copy of The Irish Genealogist, not sure where else does.
:)
DebbieG
Dear Debbie G
My ggggrandfather was Jonathan Muckeston Key - I read on a web sit or history on line or some where that he was left some money in Mr Muckestons will as he was his godson. If i have it right he married Susanna Birch who had Mary Sophia Key. She married Walter Augustus Hewitt - they had Esa Mau Hewitt who married Rev. John Carpenter Turner who had Claud William Carpenter Turner he married Jean Balfour Hutchings who had Peter Carpenter Turner who had me!!! Where to you fit in
Look forward to hearing from you
Mark Carpenter Turner
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I have replied to Mark by PM to stop this thread from getting more confusing than it already is :D
DebbieG
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I feel sure John Burnett Applebee was in the legal profession. I think that's him dying Sept 1/4 1865 Kensington Vol. 1a Page 69. Alfred Green also appears as a witness on Marianne's Will and he signs himself as Clerk to Mr.Charles William John Baker of 11 Sackville Street, to whom Marianne assigns the premises 'subject to the proviso for redemption therein mentioned' in an indenture dated 4 Nov 1885.
Ros, I had the same suspicion regarding JBA. However, I can't help thinking that he would have stated his profession as lawyer (or something) in the census, if that were the case. I wouldn't rule out that he had studied Divinity or Theology at Oxford.
Debbie - I guess you've already tried to find out more about Charles James Applebee.
11 Sackville Street was the address of Watkins & Hooper, solicitors. William Watkins was one of the executors nominated by Eliza in her will.
Justin
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Yep - I've tried on Charles James Applebee but so far not much except a vague reference to someone who was tutored by him at Putney before going on to Oxford, however there are no obvious references to him at Oxford or Cambridge (or Dublin)
his wife was Mary Scott ---? something but I have failed to find a marriage ???
DebbieG
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Yes, Justin, JBA did study at Oxford. I found him on the Oxford University Alumni - it reads: John Applebee, s Charles James, of Fulham, Middlesex, arm. St. Mary Hall, matric. 13 March, 1818 aged 30.
Does 'arm.' mean he was in the army?
Ros.
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Ros,
arm. definitely does not refer to military service. It must mean something like 'admitted to' or 'entered'. I see the abbreviation is 'adm.' for Cambridge - a far better university (no guessing my home town!).
I think all the Oxford alumni have this 'arm.' abbreviation in the entry.
Justin
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Hi Justin,
Other entries have the abbreviations cler., pleb., gent., preb., D.D.,
I've just looked up the definition of arm. in the dictionary:
Short for armiger - 1. A bearer of armour for a knight, a squire. 2. A person entitled to bear heraldic arms.
Ros
p.s. Hey! - your home town is not far from me. :D
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Ros very kindly copied the entry in the Death Duty Register for Eliza Pyne for me.
Some of the entries are hard to read, but the main points are:
1. Eliza Pyne recorded as a spinster
2. All five children recorded as illegitimate
3. Third son, Horace, died intestate in 1858. Place not given.
4. Horatio Clagett died on 31 Jan 1880.
I can only assume that the executors knew about her marital circumstances, so it must be true.
Justin
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Justin - does that mean Ros has been to the PRO again? well at least we can stop looking for Eliza's marriage
I know at one point you said you had Eliza's death certificate - but I can't find it in all the various threads and posts - could you remind us what age she was when she died please.
Waits eagerly for Ros with anymore info :)
Debbie
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Debbie,
Eliza was reportedly 36 years old when she died. Do we believe any of the details though?
Justin
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Hello everyone,
I'm sorry - that was all I could find at Kew this time. The ref. I had found for Marianne's DDR turned out to be just the index, and when I eventually found the microfilm that the record was supposed to be on, it wasn't in alphabetical order and in miniscule print, so I gave up in desperation!
Ros.
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Oh what a shame, Ros!
Was Horace Pyne's death noted in the paperwork for Eliza? Can't seem to see him around.
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Hi, Yes it states that 'Horatio Pyne'... Died 1858...'
Ros.
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Hi Everyone,
Went to Kew again yesterday and had more success, although the info. probably doesn't help very much in our search for William Lionel Pyne and George Pyne senior.
Firstly the DDR of Marianne Caldwell. This didn't tell me anything new. It just confirmed that Charles Isham Caldwell was her grandson, which I suspected already. There were no addresses for him and George Pyne wasn't mentioned - no reason to be I suppose.
Next was a claim received at the Admiralty on 19 Aug 1857.
Amount reported due £10. 15s 0d. Half Pay
Name of deceased: Lieutenant George Pyne on Half Pay List, R.N.
Name and address of claimant: Mary Eliza Pyne, Widow of 3 Collingwood Villas, Stoke Damerel, Devon. (Another address - Rossall, Fleetwood, Lancashire - had been crossed out)
Claim admitted 28 Nov 1857
Then I looked at the Officers Service Records and found the following for Lieutenant George Pyne:
7 Feb 1846: See report of Preparation for Battle from the "Warssiter?", where Lieut. Pyne is stated to be manifestly deficient in his knowledge of Gunnery exercise.
Apr 1846: Letter from Captain Wallis of the "Warssiter?" on the same subject
23 April: Paid off
29 May 1846: Appn. to "Spartan"
5 Aug 1846: Superseded
19 Nov 1851: "Express"
3 Apr 1854: To report on the state of his health in six months
13 May 1857 Died
Lastly I looked at the post 1858 wills index. I didn't find anything for John Burnett Applebee or Horatio Pyne, but found the following for Horatio Clagett:
Clagett, Horatio, Esq. Will Proved 20 May 1880. Personal Estate: Under £70,000.
Administration (with the will) of the personal estate of Horatio Clagett late of 1 Abbey Road, St. John's Wood in the county of Middlesex, Esquire, a Widower, who died 31 January 1880 at 1 Abbey Road, was granted at the Principal Registry to Thomas William Clagett of Stapleford Park in the Parish of Stapleford near Melton Mowbray in the County of Leicester, Esqure, the nephew and one of the next of Kin.
Not planning to go to Kew for a while now, but hope next week to go to the London Metropolitan Archives in Clerkenwell to try and find original baptism records. I read on their website that they will be putting all this info. online shortly - Yippee!
Regards. Ros
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PYNE m. MATHEW
Is anyone interested in the MATHEW connection? I'm investigating part of this family since, apparently another PYNE niece, Harriet Mary MATHEW b. July 1840 (father George Felton MATHEW, mother Selina: Harriet was one of the younger sisters of Selina MATHEW living with the PYNEs) was one of those killed in the Surrey Gardens Music Hall accident (panic) on 19 October 1856. (No direct link to MATHEW myself, but I have contact with a descendant. My direct interest in this is the Surrey Gardens accident.)
After the death of Nathaniel PYNE (2Q 1866 reg. Penzance), the widowed mother of his niece Selina MATHEW - also a Selina - came to join Selina jnr. in St Ives, + niece Selina's spinster sister Sarah - and widow Harriet PYNE seems to have become a Post Mistress in Bedfordshire for her few remaining years (d. 3Q 1873 reg. Leighton Buzzard?). Don't have confirmation yet, but seems Selina snr. and Harriot would have been sisters?
George Felton MATHEW m. Selina was the son of George Felton MATHEW sometime poet, critic, and friend of the poet KEATS. Found on the web: "an early associate of John KEATS. He was the son of a London merchant, raised in the house of a West India Merchant, and from 1830 worked in the Civil Service, where he was a member of the Poor Law Commission" - so an India connection also.
The MATHEW descendant Peggy has a website here:
http://mathewfamilytree.com/whats_new_1.html
FYO:
The person who identified Harriet Mary MATHEWS and was witness at the Inquest, was her brother, also a George Felton MATHEW, grandson of KEATS' friend.
"George MATTHEWS examined.-
I am a clerk to the Poor Law Board, and live at 32, Bridge-house-place, Newington-causeway. I have seen the persons who are dead in the next room, and recognise one of them as my sister. Her name was Harriet Mary. She was unmarried, and was 16 years of age last July. She was stopping with me at my residence, and on Sunday night she was in good health. She went to the Surrey Gardens, accompanied by her sister and a friend. The name of the person who accompanied my sister is Ann ROSENBERG, living in the Wyndham-road, Camberwell."
A false alarm of "fire", ensuing panic, and people crushed, suffocated, on a staircase.
The Surrey Gardens Music Hall, said to be the biggest and best in Europe at the time, was built, very quickly, in 1856 and opened in July. On 19 October the Baptist preacher STURGEON was preaching there for the first time, and the false alarm was believed to be aimed at discrediting him. In 1861 the Music Hall burned, and was subsequently modified to provide temporary accommodation for St Thomas' Hospital whose premises in Southwark had been commandeered for a new railway station, and until a new building was available on the Embankment (c.1871/2). The Music Hall and Gardens reopened 1872-3, but tastes had changed and the enterprise went bankrupt. Most of the Gardens site was sold for building land.
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Ros,
I have had a quick read through all 16 pages of this thread. I feel your pain with these Pyne's/Pine's!
PM me your e-mail address and I will send you a Word format document that you might like to read. It has a chapter on the Pyne's from Cork, but no mention of your William Lionel unfortunately. I have come across that name somewhere though, just can't remember where.
Darren
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I have no connection with the family but I have just uploaded photos of their magnificant grave.
Could you guys help with the details?
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=170981720
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William Pyne born circa 1812, Somerset, father John married Frances Hales 5.7.1842 by Licence at St. James Westminster. I dont know any thing about the Pyne family, but Frances was the daughter of Frances Caldwell and George Hales of Cradley. Frances Caldwell was the daughter of Susannah Hill and Tracy Caldwell. Hope this is of some help.
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I have just discovered this thread as I am researching the Pyne family for a friend here in Australia. I note that Darren Pine was offering a WORD document on the family - hoping that Darren sees this post and can assist.
John Cummings
Anglesea. Australia
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Hi John
As long as Darren hasn't changed email addresses since he last logged on in 2021, he should receive an email notification that you have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn