RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Gloucestershire => England => Gloucestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: webeyer on Friday 30 January 09 13:47 GMT (UK)
-
Hello
I have hit a really frustrating problem with my research and would be eternally gratefull for any help.
My grandfather was Edward Charles James Long born in Montpelier Bristol in 1905. I am unable to find his Birth Record (searched for hours) .. he is unknown to me as my Father was the product of an affair. The only document I have is his marriage cert which tells me that his father was George Henry Long who was a Sailor.
Having looked through the 1911 Census (full of hope) I found Edward Long living with his Grandmother, Anna Hollingsworth Hogg .. no other residents.
I found that she was born in 1854 , Bristol and married to a James Hogg from Aberdeen in 1881 ... then to my horror they disappeared! I have dug and delved to find records of her children, also a Hogg-Long marriage (circa 1898-1906) with no luck at all.
If anybody could help with any of the names mentioned it would really help me out:
EDWARD CHARLES JAMES LONG 1905
GEORGE HENRY LONG
ANNA HOLLINGSWORTH HOGG NEE WHITE 1854
JAMES HOGG 1824
Thank you for any help you can offer
Helga :)
-
Helga,
What reliable evidence do you have that E. C. J. LONG was born in Bristol?
There was an E. C. L. birth registered in Cardiff in 1906 and it would not be unusual for baptismal names to be add to those at registration.
Regards
Chas
-
Hello
I think that Anna Hollingsworth White was born in 1858 and that this is probably her, with her family ....
1861
Bristol RG9/1724 Folio 44 Page 14
Charles J White Head M 37 Tobacconist Gloucester Bristol
Martha H do Wife M 34 Gloucester Bristol
Charles R do Son 13 Scholar Somerset Bristol
Elizabeth E do Daur 11 Scholar Gloucester Bristol
Frederick do Son 7 Scholar Gloucester Bristol
Anna H do Daur 3 Gloucester Bristol
Ellen J do Daur 1 Gloucester Bristol
66 Park St, Bristol St Augustine’s
I think that Charles John White married Martha Hollingsworth Northcote in 1844.
posteria
-
1871
Anna White aged 12 is a Scholar at Red Maids School, Bristol (Bristol RG10/2535 Folio 58 Page 12).
Her father, Charles White, is a Patient at the Bristol Royal Infirmary (Bristol RG10/2531 Folio 154 Page 6).
Her mother, Martha H White and some of the children are living at 3 Queens Parade, Stapleton Road, Bristol (Clifton RG10/2557 Folio 98 Page 46).
Charles J and his son, Charles R, are now both listed as Artist and Martha is a Confectioner.
posteria
-
1881
Anna White aged 22 can be seen with her mother and father and one brother on http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp.
She is an Upholstress and her father is now a Photographer. They are living at 57 Castle Street, Bristol
posteria
-
Thank you all so much!
Re: Edward Long, on the 1911 Census (living/staying with his Grandmother) his birth place is listed as Monpelier Bristol.
I have managed to find some of the information kindly forwarded about the White, Hollingsworth and Hogg Families but its after Annas marriage in 1881 that they just vanish ... I can't find a thing about them anywhere, this includes my great grandmother (Edward Longs mother) who is simply known as 'Not Sure' on my tree! If anybody can shed some light on James Hogg or Anna Hollingsworth Hogg for the years between 1882 - 1901 I'd be absolutely made up.
Thanks again to you all, I'm very, very gratefull
Helga
-
Hi Helga
Have you dismissed the LONG birth in Cardiff that Chas found?
What else does the marriage certificate say? It could be that he made up his father - it has been known!
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
-
Hi Arranroots,
I'm just having a look into the Cardiff Long birth .......
The marriage took place in Farnham Surrey in 1926 : Edward Charles James Long, Bachelor..... Rank or Proffession: Soldier, residence at time of marriage .. Horfield Bristol, Father: George Henry Long, Sailor.
I really hope he didn't make up a name for his Father ... if I could trach Annas Children it might answer that question anyway (assuming she infact married)
Thanks for your help,
Helga
-
This looks like it might be James Hogg just before the marriage ....
1881
Bristol RG11/2475 Folio 80 Page 9
Elizabeth Hogg Head Widow 62 Scotland
Elizabeth do Daur U 31 Machinist Scotland
James do Son U 26 Upholsterer Scotland
3 Blenheim Square, Bristol
If so, he was born around 1855.
posteria
-
Hi Posteria...
oh my word! yes it is him ... I put his fathers birth year by (very stupid) mistake .... I'm sorry!
I can't believe I did that, talk about a fool!.
Thanks for correcting that 'Schoolboy' for me and thanks for all your help.
very Best Wishes and apologies
Helga
-
Hello Helga
No need to apologise. I just thought that if we had the correct birth dates for James and Anna it might be easier for others to search for them.
In the first quarter of 1929 there is a death registered in Bristol for an Anna H Hogg aged 70. The GRO reference is 6a 375.
Maybe she left a Will which might identify some of her children ?
This link gives some information about how to arrange a search for one etc - if you scroll down the page. It costs £5 for a search whether or not a Will is found but no extra for a copy of the Will if there is one.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1183.htm
posteria
-
Posteria!
Thanks a million ... this is a new one to me and I certainly will try it!
I will post any findings,
Have a great weekend, you've given me hope ...fingers firmly crossed......
Helga
-
Helga
The particular link page which I gave does not make it clear that there is an application form (PA1S) which can be printed and used to apply for the search.
That information is on another page and the form itself can be found from the “Forms and leaflets” link on the right hand side of the page.
It makes it a lot easier than sending an unformatted letter.
posteria
-
Hi
I took a look at the page, saw all those words (lol) and decided to get reading tomorrow am .... so thanks for the pointer, it'll save my eyes!
Thanks again so much,
Best Wishes
Helga
-
You may have this by now, but just in case:
Name: James Hogg
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1855
Age: 26
Father's Name: Alexander Hogg
Spouse's Name: Anna White
Spouse's Age: 23
Spouse's Father's Name: Charles John White
Marriage Date: 5 Jun 1881
Marriage Place: Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
-
From the 1901 census ( name is HALL - a typo), James HOGG ,Upholsterer, & Anna Hollingsworth HOGG nee WHITE, had one daughter, Lilly aged 15, a tailoress ( this is confirmed in the 1911 when Anna states she has one daughter who is still living)- however, I have not found a birth registration for a Lilly/Lily /Lilian born about 1886 in Bristol ( see 1901 census)....and so far haven't found her in 1911! There is a marriage for George Henry LONG to Lilian PARKER 1906 in Bristol...I wonder if "Lilly" was adopted by the HOGGs..or.....??
James HOGG's mother, Elizabeth nee SINCLAIR died early 1884 aged 65. His father, Alexander was a cabinet maker..here are James HOGG's birth details:
James Hogg
Born 19 Apr 1855 in Blythswood,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland
Parents: Alexander Hogg & Elizabeth Sinclair
I found Alexander HOGG, cabinet maker, in 1841 aged 25, living with about 3 other families in Hunthy St Old Machar, Aberdeenshire -( remember the age is not exact in 1841 censuses). He married Elizabeth SINCLAIR 3 June 1842 at St Nicholas Aberdeen. Haven't found them yet in 1851, but in 1861, the family has Alexandrina b 1845 ( she died Gloucestershire 1883 ), Elizabeth HOGG b 1849, Isabella HOGG b 1852 & James HOGG b 1855 - (there may have been a son born earlier called Alexander)-living in Glasgow. The family moved to Gloucestershire sometime between 1861 and 1871
James HOGG's sister, Isabella HOGG married James Edward WATTS on 9 Jan 1893 in Bristol
His other sister, Elizabeth HOGG married William FEWING on 31 Aug 1891 in Montpelier , St Andrew, Gloucestershire- William FEWING is a shop keeper in an 1894 directory in Bristol
-
Hi Kiwi007, thanks for your help. I have managed to untangle some of the facts you mention. It would appear that Lillian Parker was adopted by the Hoggs, she is my paternal Great Grandmother. I have spent countless hours trying to discover her birth details to no avail. On her marriage certificate (to George Henry Long in 1906) it states that her Father was one Thomas Parker, deceased .. I have no leads on him either although I believe he was also an upholsterer. The Hoggs traveled about quite a bit and only appear on some of the census lists which has complicated matters for me with regard Lilian. I thank you so much again for the effort you have made on my behalf, it is very much appreciated!
-
My pleasure to help out - the info I posted might help other researchers of the HOGG family! It seems we should be tracing the WHITE, LONG, & PARKER families in fact! I am wondering what info is on the marriage record for Lilian PARKER - does it give Thomas PARKER's occupation? Also, does it have the addresses at time of marriage? Have you ever found the death for James HOGG? I noticed Anna says she is 'married' in 1911 not widowed, so maybe they had split up by 1911...perhaps Anna is Lilian's mother, causing a few ructions in the marriage. If G H LONG was a sailor, maybe Lilian went off to sea with him leaving the son with Grandma Anna in 1911. The HOGG family seems to be missing from the 1851 and 1891 censuses - but I am sure they are there somewhere ( under another mis transcribed name ). I had a quick look at Free BMD and see Lilian & George LONG had at least 2 daughters - Lilian Catherine LONG b 5 Jan 1913 (died Feb 1992 SOM) who married William Hector A BUTLAND 1933 (3chdn) & Gladys M LONG b 1916 . Wm BUTLAND Engineer, b 30 Jun 1900- 1998- the BUTLANDs went to Canada in 1952 for a few months- William stayed longer.
I found a newspaper article from 1871 saying that Alexander HOGG was charged with deserting his wife forcing the parish to look after his family - sentenced to 6 weeks hard labour!(doubt this is James' father as the chdn are too old- but might be James' brother )
-
Hello again Kiwi007,
thanks again for your input ... I haven't furthered my searches for quite a while as I kept banging straight into dead ends, at the same time I'm desperate to find out more. I did have a distant cousin (also descended from Lilian, contact me, she explained (family legend apparently) that Lilian was spotted in a pram outside a house (presumably the Parkers) .. dirty and disheveled, Anna Hogg approached the parents who agreed to allow her to 'adopt' the little girl. On Lilians marriage certificate, her fathers occupation is listed as upholsterer, deceased. I was also informed that James Hogg (also an upholsterer) and Anna Hogg were fond of the bottle, they appear to have done several moonlight flits and were quite good at avoiding any documentation concerning their whereabouts .. this could explain why they are impossible to find in the census records for 1891. To make matters more complicated, I was then told that Lilian worked for a Jewish Tailor by whom she subsequently became pregnant in 1905, this was my Grandfather .. I had believed that George Long (married Lilian in 1906) was my Grandfather so it was all quite a shock (having searched for years regarding the Long family) Apparently Anna Hogg and Lilian lived on the same street in Bristol (Oak Rd Ashley) for quite a few years. Lilian was present at the death of James and Anna. James died on the 11 Jan 1926, his address was 100 Fishponds Rd. He is listed as a journeyman upholsterer. Lilians address was 91 Oak Rd. Horfield Bristol. On Annas death certificate (15March 1929), it states that present at the death was 'L Long, adopted daughter, 14 Gilmore Cottages, Ashfield Place, Bristol. I have not been able to trace anything for Lilians birth or who her parents (The Parkers) were. The Tailor she worked for and became pregnant by purportedly sold his shop and set off on the quickest ship to America as soon as he was informed of the baby .. as you can imagine, I know nothing about him at all .. not even his name. If you are able to find anything regarding Lilian and her family, I would so much appreciate it, I'm at a total loss in all the twists and turns. In any event I do thank you for everything you have already discovered, you are a star!
Many kind wishes
Helga
-
Hmmm- we really do have a mystery then! Its interesting that 'your' HOGG family lived in Horfield - mine did too - but my John HOGG was born in Ireland - the booze got him as well:-)) Now, I scouted around the area Anna & Lilly were in in 1901 and did not find a Tailor within coo-ee, however I did find a Joseph Edward GREEN, Tailor's presser not far away - he married 1902 to Alice Elizabeth LLOYD and they had 3 children in Bristol before moving to Bradford Yorkshire - where Joseph is now known as Edward...and a Tailor's coat presser in 1911 ( they had 4 children, one had died by 1911)- I wonder if he was the busy boy- he died 1957 Bristol- Alice died 1940 Bristol
Assuming Thomas PARKER is correct, there is a death for one in 1894, aged 54 - in Barton Regis - I haven't found him in 1891 as far as I can tell ( there are a few)...but maybe this is your man. At least he is in the right area! Personally, I think Anna gave birth to Lilian, especially as she claims one living child from her marriage in 1911 - surely she would have put none if she had never given birth to anyone....maybe the story of the adoption was for keeping up appearances, such as they were :-))..having just said that....I see there is a Thomas PARKER with a daughter Lilian A PARKER- he is a butcher born Salop with wife Elizabeth, and children William, Lilian & Edith in 1891 and in 1901, no Lilian with them- but I see she is a servant elsewhere and marries the same Qtr as your Lilly..so back to square 1 .
I think with so many handed down stories ( and no records) it is going to be nearly impossible to prove your ancestry with any certainty. This is very disappointing. I helped someone research their family and they had a story that Harry was adopted by a Judge and came out to Australia - but I think Harry changed his name- found a family that matched him all the way back ( occupations, family names etc) but the lady just cannot accept she is not the girl she thought she was ( which I can imagine would be very difficult). I feel very sorry for her even though I think I have cracked it!
-
Hi Kiwi007,
I like your thinking and who knows, maybe Anna and James were Lilians parents, its a really tangled web for sure! heres an extract from the email I received from my cousin ....'Here is what I know from first hand as my Nan, Lilian Catherine Long left us tapes where she talks about her life.Lilian Parker was a two year old baby when Mrs White walked past the garden and saw Lilian sitting in a laundry basket all dirty and crying. Somehow Lilian went to live with the Whites and became their daughter.
The Whites liked to drink and were upholsterers.
Lilian would often come home an d find the furniture all sold and the Whites drunk. She had a hard time and often Mrs White moved home to get away from her husband and often changed her name. Lilian went to work in a tailors shop with another six girls working for a young Jewish owner.
Lilian got pregnant by the shop owner who then closed the shop and ran away to America leaving Lilian to bring up the baby alone.
I dont think I'm ever destined to unearth the true facts but it was great having your help and I really appreciate your research into this quagmire. I'll keep you informed should I ever get further ahead with the mystery. My very best wishes to you. Helga