RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Merly on Tuesday 27 January 09 11:23 GMT (UK)
-
Hi, I am looking for info on the birth (and parents) of Martha J Clarke. What I have so far is that Martha Josephine Clarke, married Fenton Mangnall in 1853 at St John's, Broughton (Salford?). They had a child, Helen around March, 1856, also in Salford. Martha died in June 1857. I know Fenton remarried, but would like to know what happened to Helen. From the research I have done, she married some years later and had children. However, my primary interest is Martha's parents? Who were they, and when was she born? How do I find them? :) ???
-
In 1861, Helen is with an Aunt in Broughton
1861 - RG9/2909; Folio: 101; Page: 9 - Broughton
4, Northern Terrace
Mary Mangnall 45 UnMarried Head No occupation Manchester
Jane Mangnall 35 Sister Prestwich
Lucy Mangnall 33 Sister do
Alfred Mangnall 26 Brother Buyer Cotton Manchester
Helen Mangnall 5 Niece born Salford
Clare McCallum 27 servant
-
Do you have Martha & Fentons Marriage Cert - to reveal Fathers names & occupations ?
There is a Martha Clark born Liverpool c1830 in the Broughton area, somebodies cousin ! But obviously this is pure speculation ....
-
If you send for Martha's marriage certificate, it will give you the names of both fathers, plus their occupations and whether or not they are still alive at the time of this marriage. From there it should be possible to search censuses and get some way further back. There is a Martha J Clarke on the 1851 census, born Toxteth but unless you know her father's name, you can't be absolutely certain that it is the right one for you.
The marriage ref is:
Sep 1853, Salford, 8d/1
Jen
-
Thank you Newf, I believe the Helen living with an aunt is the one I am looking for. I am doing this research for my aunt Helen (ironic, i know ;D ). I don't have a marriage certificate but I do know that Martha married Fenton Mangnall in 1853 at St, Johns, Broughton (RoM Salford 1853 Q3 *d 1) They had Helen (Mar 1856 Salford, 8d 44). Martha died June 1857 (RoD Salford 1857 Q2 8d 15). I don't know what she died of, or where she was buried, or who her parents were. Being from a different country, what do I do now?
-
Given that you know her middle name was Josephine, this baptism entry from IGI (extracted entry on the index at www.familysearch.org) may be of interest:
MARTHA JOSEPHINE CLARKE
Birth: 24 May 1829
Christening: 1 November 1829 Paradise Street Unitarian Chapel-Nc, Liverpool
Parents: FRANCIS CLARKE & MARTHA
Anna :)
-
The Martha Josephine I posted about above seems to have had 3 siblings baptised at the same chapel, namely Louisa Clarke (1831), Frances Mason Clarke (1833) and Helen Clarke (1835). So if this is your Martha, she may have named her daughter after one of her sisters.
Anna :)
-
Being from a different country, what do I do now?
Order the Marriage Cert online at the GRO - http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ - look for Ordering Online and then follow the prompts to register and fill in the details provided by GenJen above - if I were you I'd just specify Marthas name, as Fentons is not well transcribed in the index.
Then hopefully the Cert will show Father Francis, to match Anna's PR finds ;)
-
Thanks to all of you. Will talk to my aunt and see what she wants to do.
Please accept my assertions that you are AWESOME!
Newf, Avm and Genjen :)
-
If I'm right on the family (and I agree you must buy the marriage certificate to confirm the name of Martha's father) the Clarke girls seem to be dispersed by 1851.
Frances (17) and Helen (16) Clarke, both born Liverpool, are pupils at Brookfield Lodge School, Highgate Rise, Kentish Town in 1851: HO107/1498/304/69.
A Martha Clarke, 21 b Liverpool, is in Milton St, Broughton as "cousin" of Sarah Reaves, a 58 yr old unmarried Proprietor of Houses & Lane b Coventry. Also in the household is a 9 yr old Elizabeth Clarke, "cousin", b Manchester - possibly a much younger sister of Martha? HO107/2222/178/40.
Anna :)
-
I was just going to post the census information about Helen and Frances. The head of household is a professor of languages - It looks like quite a prestigious school, don't you think?
Jen
-
Fenton's a slippery character !
Suspect this is him - Preston District covers a Broughton ....
Deaths Jun 1892
Mangnall Fenton 64 Preston 8e 397
and this 1881 enumeration - where Helen is still unmarried niece to spinster Mangnalls, has a 7 year old Fenton nephew too ...
1881 - RG11/3955; Folio: 42; Page: 30 - Broughton in Salford
-
There is a Martha Clark born Liverpool c1830 in the Broughton area, somebodies cousin ! But obviously this is pure speculation ....
shoulda gone wiv me gut feeling :D
-
There is a Martha Clark born Liverpool c1830 in the Broughton area, somebodies cousin ! But obviously this is pure speculation ....
shoulda gone wiv me gut feeling :D
Sorry - didn't mean to echo! I hadn't seen that you'd already got that.
Re 9 yr old Elizabeth Clarke b Manchester who is with Martha in 1851, there's a submitted record on IGI (so usual caveat, but it looks a good match):
ELIZABETH CLARKE
Birth: 27 September 1841
Christening: 3 July 1842 Upper Brook St, Manchester
Parents: FRANCIS CLARKE & MARTHA
Anna :)
-
I was just going to post the census information about Helen and Frances. The head of household is a professor of languages - It looks like quite a prestigious school, don't you think?
Jen
Yes, it looks like a smart girls' boarding school. And with cousin Sarah Reaves being a proprietor of buildings & land, this looks like a family with some money. :)
Anna
-
wonder if this is our chap .... PoB is Prestwich like his sisters ... he's a Cotton Merchant & Manufacturer, seems to ring a bell ?
1881 - RG11/3937; Folio: 96; Page: 23; - Moss Side, Hulme
Carlton Road Church Croft
he's married to an Eliza, and oldest kid is 19 - so could have remarried after the 1857 loss of Martha ?
(You can view the 1881 for free - or I will transcribe if you wish)
-
No problem Anna - I had posted that before your PR findings .... :)
-
Marriages Jun 1860
Grave Eliza Manchester v8d p174 to Mangnall Fenfon
-
More children for Francis & Martha Clarke from IGI:
CATHERINE CLARKE (extracted)
Birth: 15 November 1836
Christening: 6 January 1837 Mosley Street Presbyterian Or Unitarian, Manchester
FRANCIS CLARKE (submitted)*
Birth: 10 November 1836
Christening: 6 Jan 1837 Mosley Street, Manchester
*This needs to be treated with care as it is a submitted record and the birth is supposedly 5 days before Catherine's (presumably possible with twins to have them 5 days apart, but not common I would think).
Anna
-
1841 census: Dawson St, Deansgate, Manchester
HO107/569/9/27/6
Thos Clarke 40 Merchant [an uncle???]
Martha do 13
Frances do 7
Ellen* do 5 [likely to be Helen]
Catherine do 4
plus one servant
This looks likely to be the right set of girls, although for some reason enumerated (like Thomas) as not having been born in the county of Lancashire - if it is them, I wonder where their parents were? (Mother Martha would have been about 6 months pregnant with Elizabeth at the time of the census).
-
Marriage (from IGI, extracted):
FRANCIS CLARK
MARTHA MASON
Marriage: 8 November 1828
Holy Trinity, Coventry, Warwickshire
- a good fit both with the "Mason" middle name of their daughter Frances, and the Coventry birthplace of "cousin" Sarah Reaves.
Anna :)
-
Looks like someone else has been researching Fenton - his transcription has been 'commented' in Ancestry - if you know that are looking for Mangnall its obvious even with poor writing, but the transcription is not quality !
Explanation: Have been following family through vaious Census and should be Fenton Mangnall or Magnall
Contributer - pmagnall
Contributed - 24/08/2006
1841 - HO107/585/3; Salford / Greengage; District: 4; Folio: 39; Page: 5
St Stephens Street
all born in County
William Magnalls 60 Agent
Ann do 49
Mary do 25
Francis do 20
Eliza do 20
William do 15 Ag
Jane do 15
Edward do 15 Clerk
Lucy Magnalls 14
Scuton Magnalls 13 original moot, but I'd lean to Fenton
Alfred Magnalls 7
-
Nice job ppl. But my Martha Clarke married Fenton Mangnall in 1853. They had one child. Helen, in 1856.
Martha died in 1857. Fenton remarried in 1860 to Eliza Graves. Fenton and Eliza had a number of children, and most indexes get his name wrong ::). I am following the leads and will order a certificate for Martha as soon as I have the funds. What is on my mind now, (remember I am doing this for my aunt who is only related by marriage) is that some of my mothers family are clarkes. I know the odds, but ...... ??? ::) 8)
-
Nice job ppl. But my Martha Clarke married Fenton Mangnall in 1853. They had one child. Helen, in 1856.
Martha died in 1857. Fenton remarried in 1860 to Eliza Graves. Fenton and Eliza had a number of children, and most indexes get his name wrong
about caught up with you then if you've seen the earlier stuff ! ;)
-
But my Martha Clarke married Fenton Mangnall in 1853. They had one child. Helen, in 1856.
I don't understand your point - surely that's entirely consistent with everything found above?
Anna
-
nerf, I have been in touch with pmagnall. He does have some interesting stuff. Part of the reason of muy posting here is that my aunt has some original documents, that she would like to return to the mangnall family. This is why i posed the original question. If we can find descendants of Martha, what my aunt has will go to them. If not, we will move on to Fenton and his family. :)