RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Nick68 on Sunday 25 January 09 18:59 GMT (UK)
-
I was just browsing the net this morning wondering if we had any connection with any Scottish clan, we're off to a wedding later this year and i 'm thinking of highland dress but have no idea as to a tartan etc. one thing led to another I got thinking (always dangerous!!).
I just realised I know nothing about my Grandfather on my Dad's side. I was always told he'd died really young and my dad never talked about him and I always thought this was because he didn't have the memories. I assumed my grandmother who I did know had returned for whatever reason to using her maiden name after his death and my dad retained his fathers surname. I didn't even know my grandads first name on my dad's side. I know my mum's family quite well.
I tried some preliminary searches on the 1911 census this morning I knew my grandmother was born in 1902 I couldn't find anything under what I assumed was her birth name. I phoned my mum and she told me my dad was actually born Illegitimate and the man who I assumed was my paternal grandfather was actually my dad's step dad. My grandmother had kept her married name. My dad used her maiden name.
It kind of made my search for my grandmother easier I managed to find her in the 1911 census. I'm just not sure I want to dig anymore.
I was 40 in December and I never knew any of this, when I spoke to my mum this morning she sounded a little upset, by it all, she said it had bothered my dad a lot. I know my mum probably has a copy of my dad's birth certificate, there are questions I want to ask Whose name is on there?, What happened to him? etc., but I don't want to upset her any more. Part of me is also a little nervous about where all of this could go. I feel on edge at the minute there's things coming out I'm really not feeling at ease with, I think no less of my dad in fact probably more of him. I was really close to my Grandmother until she died 15 years ago and I now begin to find out she was a bit of a girl, not sure i'm up for finding out any more. I discovered a few year ago she'd been married before she married the man who I assumed until this morning was my grandfather.
I really don't know what to do if it a few generations back I wouldn't have a problem with it, but this is recent history, people I knew and loved and whilst i'm curious part of me thinks let sleeping dogs lie.
-
Hi Nick, welcome to Rootschat!
I think a number of Rootschatters will identify with your dilemma, I have read in previous threads about close families sometimes being upset by the facts being unearthed. A lot of us, myself included, have found out information of this nature but it has been further back in our family trees. As you say, that's rather different from it being about close living relatives. If you wanted to continue with your research without questioning your mum you could obtain a copy of your dad's birth certificate and see the details. Unfortunately only you can decide on whether to take this path. Perhaps your parents will become easier in their minds about this as time goes on. Would you feel as if you were being sneaky if you continued without their knowledge? It's a very difficult one, maybe you should take a little more time to consider it. Whatever you decide, I hope you feel comfortable with your choice.
-
Thanks for that, my Dad died in 1999, i've thought about tracing my family back, I just wanted to know who we are and where we come from. Just a bit of a shock to start off with, I'm going to see my mum on Tuesday, I think we'll have a cup of tea and see if there's anything else I should know before I start digging anymore.
I think if I do go down the route of getting a copy of the birth certificate.
-
Sorry Nick, I hadn't realised your dad had died, I should have picked it up from what you said about him. I know this sort of thing is quite shocking when you first uncover it but I wouldn't worry about your grandmother being 'a bit of a girl' - illegitimacy was a lot more common at that time than you may think.
I'm sure your mum will come to terms with your curiosity about your ancestors, she probably just needs a little time. And a cuppa is always a good start! Good luck!
-
Nick
don't think too harshly of your grandmother- times were hard then and people, particularly women, didn't have the choices most of us have now. You said you loved and was close to your father & grandmother - remember them for the people they were and what they meant to you. Good luck with whatever you decide to do :)
p.s. I could tell you a few stories from my family that would make your hair curl :o :o
-
You knew and loved your Dad (and he couldn't choose his parents!) and your Gran. You don't know the circumstances of his birth, so don't assume the worst! Your Gran may have been mislead or may have been the victim of a sad series of events. Now the subject has been raised, I'm sure your Mum will tell you more in due course - you may just have to be patient. Whatever your Gran did or didn't do all those years ago, (and she could have given your dad up for adoption), she was still your lovely Grandma and you'll never forget that.
-
I'm starting to get a little paranoid.
I went and had a chat with my mum on Tuesday night we talked about a few things, my grandmother was the oldest of four and basically her mother died when she was about 16 and she stayed at home and looked after her family, a pretty hard life. When her Brothers and Sisters got a bit older, I think she decided to cut loose a bit and well to cut a long story short got involved with what we think was a married man and my dad was the result. I found a copy of my parents marriage certificate and my dad's death certificate, the name of his father was left blank on the marriage certificate.
The date of birth on both of those Certificate's was 25th December 1928, thats the date we always celebrated his birthday, and it's the date on his gravestone.
I bought a few credits on the 1901 census website this morning and viewed the register of births for 1928. There's no record of his birth in the 4th quarter of 1928. I even looked at the 1st quarter of 1929, nothing!!. Well not under my grandmothers maiden name, his and my surname. I can find my Grandmothers birth under our surname in the 4th quarter of 1902 in Basford, Nottingham. This makes sense it 's exact name match and her family were from Nottingham.
How accurate would that register be in 1928?, I was on the verge of requesting a copy of his birth certificate but now I'm not sure they could find it?, I'm beginning to doubt so much I've always taken for granted.
I'm hoping it's just an omission but my Mum and Dad were married for 40 years and I didn't think there would be any secrets to find.
-
If you are looking on FreeBMD the transcription of 1928 births is still in progress and only three quarters of the index have so far been transcribed. The ancestry index is a copy of the freeBDM index and some months behind. It is mainly the December quarter that is missing.
David
-
The ancestry index is a copy of the freeBDM index and some months behind.
Not any more!
See
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=356799.msg2341479;topicseen#msg2341479
Anna :)
-
I bought a few credits on the 1901 census website this morning and viewed the register of births for 1928. There's no record of his birth in the 4th quarter of 1928. I even looked at the 1st quarter of 1929, nothing!!. Well not under my grandmothers maiden name, his and my surname. I can find my Grandmothers birth under our surname in the 4th quarter of 1902 in Basford, Nottingham. This makes sense it 's exact name match and her family were from Nottingham.
How accurate would that register be in 1928?, I was on the verge of requesting a copy of his birth certificate but now I'm not sure they could find it?, I'm beginning to doubt so much I've always taken for granted.
Nick, I'm not familiar with the 1901 census site but, having just had a look at it, it seems to offer views of the complete GRO register rather than a partial transcription (?). If that's what you're looking at, I agree you would expect to see the relevant registration by the March qtr of 1929 for a birth on Christmas day 1928.
It's not at all unusual to find that people were born a year or two either side of the date their family thought was their birthdate. The birthdate recorded at death is simply that which the informant of the death (often a surviving spouse) provides.
If you like (but don't if you don't want to) feel free to send me a PM with your father's details and I will see whether I can see anything. Sometimes it's worth looking for the first names only without a surname, which can be done on some resources but not others.
Generally, don't feel bad about the things you've discovered - we all have surprises lurking in our family history and all it means is that our ancestors were human - not perfect, but probably doing their best in all the circumstances. There won't be many people on this site who haven't found the odd skeleton here and there.
I've found two fraudsters and a bigamist in my tree! (Who realistically cannot be said to have been doing their best in all the circumstances :o)
Anna
-
Nick
I've just had a look at the link posted above, and there's a lot of chat today about how the site isn't working properly. People who know their birth details aren't finding the entries. So don't panic!!! and don't jump to conclusions.
This matter is quite stressful for you so it may be a good thing that you are being forced to take it slowly. Perhaps your gran told a few white lies to protect your Dad's father or his "legal" family but I'm sure your Dad would have believed his birthday was on 25 December. Whatever the outcome, your Mum, Dad and Gran are just the same people now as they were before you started this journey - hang onto that fact. :)
-
Whatever the outcome, your Mum, Dad and Gran are just the same people now as they were before you started this journey - hang onto that fact. :)
I totally agree with alpinecottage. We can't be responsible for the circumstances of our birth and it's not surprising that your grandmother went a bit wild after having such a hard life. It's good to hear that your mum was willing to chat, perhaps she will come up with some more information if you take it slowly. I hope you manage to find your dad's birth.
-
Nick, I'm not familiar with the 1901 census site but, having just had a look at it, it seems to offer views of the complete GRO register rather than a partial transcription
If it was a transcription thing i'd understand, but i've been looking at actual PDF copies.
-
Nick, I'm not familiar with the 1901 census site but, having just had a look at it, it seems to offer views of the complete GRO register rather than a partial transcription
If it was a transcription thing i'd understand, but i've been looking at actual PDF copies.
There may be some significance in the putative date of birth in question being Christmas Day. Someone in my family always celebrated her birthday on 24 June, the June Quarter Day. It was only when she was required to produce a birth certificate to claim Retirement Pension at 60 that she discovered she was actually born on 25 February (same year), and the reason her parents had published a birth date making her four months younger than she really was, was to hide the fact that she was conceived, although not born, out of wedlock. It was the considered opinion of the famly that the date 24 June was chosen to make it easier to remember than any other randomly chosen date.
Although the circumstances of this enquiry are clearly not identical, my hunch is that Christmas Day was not the real birthday, and a wider search needs to be made.
-
Although the circumstances of this enquiry are clearly not identical, my hunch is that Christmas Day was not the real birthday, and a wider search needs to be made.
The thought of Christmas Day being a very convenient date has crossed my mind. Also a quarter date!
-
Eureka!
Bernard N PALMER mother's maiden name MEAKIN
Bernard J MERKINS mother's maiden name MEAKIN
both these registrations share a reference:
Dec qtr 1928 Coalville 3a J73
There are two things odd about this reference:
1. The letter J - I don't know what this means but it's not normal.
2. "Coalville" didn't exist as a registration district until 1949! (In 1928 the area was part of Ashby de la Zouche RD).
So I think it looks like a retrospective registration. Others on the site may be better able to explain these oddities.
Anna (AVM 228) has done some excellent digging on my behalf and come up with the above. :)
Palmer was my Grandmothers, married name and my dads stepdad, who I always thought was my paternal grandfather until last weekend. I was always told he'd died young, but my mum let slip she actually knew him and she met my dad in the mid 50's. Its just one thing after another!! ;D
I've just dropped a email on to Registrations at Leicestershire CC, but does anyone have any idea about the two points Anna's raised?? ???
-
Nick, having now gone back to the full GRO index to re-confirm these entries, I find that the second of them had been mistranscribed on the site on which I originally found them. (Which just goes to show - one should never place too much reliance on a transcription!).
The entries each appear in the full GRO index in manuscript at the bottom of the relevant pages (in identical handwriting) and read as follows:
Bernard N. PALMER mother's maiden name MEAKIN
Bernard N. MEAKIN mother's maiden name MEAKIN
Dec 1928 Coalville 3a J73
All of which makes rather more sense than the previous (erroneous) version!
Sorry about that
Anna :)
-
I discovered (living) skeletons in my family! They were born illegitimate in the 1930's and registered with their mother's maiden name. Then when their parents were able to marry, they were reregistered with their mother's married name, and their old birth certificates were destroyed. This also had the effect of "making" them legitimate. They were completely unaware of this until they went to a funeral in their 60's when someone spilled the beans - much shock all round!! Legislation now prevents these retrospective registrations, I think.
I wonder if something similar happened in your case?
-
What strikes me as odd about this one is that the registration of the birth in the mother's maiden name seems to be simultaneous with the registration in her subsequent married name (both in a district which didn't exist until the 1940s, for a birth which took place in the 1920s).
Anna
-
Hi there. Wher are your Skeltons from.
My husbands mother was a skelton. Her father was a Phillip northcote skelton and GRandfather Alfred? they were from London i think?
any link with you..
minniej
-
hi
i've discovered some skeleton's in my family
my parents married 26 days before i was born not
the year before like i was told
further back i have a bigamist whose first wife and two daughters vanish
if all our family members were perfect and where they were supposed to be
and what we had been told was the complete truth it wouldn't be half the
challenge it is ...i think its half the fun deciphering the facts from hearsay
berni
-
oops ignore me i blame the heat wave here :-[ :D
-
I was told that my aunt had burnt the family Bible many years ago, and it wasn't until I started researching the family's history and looking at dates that I discovered the probable reason why - my grandmother was 18 years old and 6 months pregnant with her when she walked down the aisle. :o Auntie was a bit of a prude!
And Minnie.... stay safe! News pictures of the heatwave and fires in your part of the world look horrendous.
Gillg
-
Thanks Gill ;)
As for SKELETONS :D well ive found a few. looks like one was 14 when she had her first child .
and anothr i found was born 6 months before marriage :o :D
It even happened way back then..... ;)
-
Nick,
Just a word of support - I think we ALL have these little selteton's in our tree. I have a recent one too which I discovered through my sleuthing. ;D
I think we are all allowed a mistake (or two ;)) in life. It's nothing for any surviving family members to be embarassed or ashamed about or be secretive about, especially in this liberal day and age. It was SO hard for women, even a generation ago.
I love all these little discoveries, but I agree that it IS different (not worse, just different) when you know those involved.
Best of luck with your search. I hope your Mum understands. ;)
-
Can anybody help Nick with the question he's raised at #15 above, and in particular as to what is the meaning of the letter J in front of the page number in the registration details ("J73")? I think it must be something to do with retrospectivity, but I just don't know for sure.
Anna
-
Perhaps a quick phone call to the Register Office would be best, then Nick would get the answer straight from the horses mouth - I'm a bit worried that he could get a misleading answer on here which would cause more trauma!!
-
Anna,
Good point alpine .... Alternatively, perhaps it might be worthwhile Nick posting a new question (with a catchy subject heading ;)) about this registration on another board? It might attract the attention of someone who knows about these things .... ;D
(Don't forget to give a link to this thread Nick).
-
I think that J73 is a reference to Jun qtr 1973. There is a Bernard Nicholas Palmer (mothers maiden name Meakin) registed Jun qtr 1973 Colville 3a 1266. On the scan of the original 1973 index there are no additional comments.