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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Hunter1 on Sunday 25 January 09 18:55 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I'm just about to go insane as I am having so much difficulty trying to find my paternal grandfather and his ancestors. I've been at it for years!
Sadly his name was Joseph Henry Brown - not the most unusual...
The only reference to him and his family I have found is on the 1901 census:
Living at 1 Hedworth St, Chester le Street
James Brown, Head, M, 55, Labourer, b. Durham, Birtley
Emma, Wife, 57, b Ireland
James Wm, son, 34, Merchant Seaman, b. Newcastle on Tyne
Joseph H, son, 21, Labourer, County Council, b. Kent Thorncliffe
The 'Thorncliffe' might be a mistake by the enumerator - it might be Shorncliffe which was an army barracks, or possibly a prison I believe. I can't find any birth record for Joseph W. I have no idea why the family was in Kent....never heard of them being there before.
I know the Joseph H is the right chap as I have a copy of his marriage cert to my grandmother and he was still at the same address.
Can anyone suggest any other route to find records for any of them?
Thanks!!
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What resources have you used?
what candidate births have you eliminated?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,355506.msg2330238.html#msg2330238
www.ukbmd.org.uk
freebmd.rootsweb.com
www.ancestry.com (1881 indexes)
Freecen.rootsweb.com
ARMY births (not on GRO indexes)
have you worked out the most likely registration district (if the stated place-of-birth were correct)?
Pauline
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Hi Pauline
I've used all the censuses available via Ancestry.co.uk (had a free trial which I've now cancelled as couldn't afford the whole thing!), also bmd records. It's very difficult with 'Brown' of course. I'm a bit mystified by the big age gap between the brothers too. Obviously children in between could have died but also wondered if they had different mothers.
I've tried Elham as PoB for Joseph Henry, on someone's suggestion, plus simply 'Kent'.
Tried searching for James Wm in Newcastle upon Tyne too but there are quite a few.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Hunter
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so you haven't compiled any lists of candidates or bought any certificates?
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What are the details on his marriage certificate? His age and occupation? Father's occupation. Names of witnesses? Every scrap helps to build up the picture.
In 1871 there is an interesting family who might fit. RG10 5069 27 47
Living in Newcastle
James Brown 37 Corporation labourer b Ireland
Isabel wife 25 b Ireland
John 7
James 2 both b Newcastle
It may be a red herring but the occupation for James is so similar, though the age is not quite right. Clutching at straws here!
Andrea
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what does he declare as birthplace in 1911?
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Thanks Pauline and Sillgen, I'll take the plunge and order a couple of birth certificates which might be James William, and will have a rethink. I'll take a look at that 1871 census, thanks.
I'm not sure how to go about the army births though - tips please!
I'm hoping that the 1911 census might help when it eventually includes Co Durham (the family lived in South Shields by then).
Best wishes
Hunter
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Cant see them anywhere together as a family before 1901.
A possibility.
1891 census, Laundry, Bettws Bleddrws, Cardigan, Wales. RG12/4553 p6.
Frederick Smith, head, 54, Coachman Dom Servant. b. Durham
Emma Smith, wife, 48, b. Belfast,
Robert Smith, son, 13, b. Canterbury, Kent,
Joseph Smith, son, 11, b. Shorncliffe, Kent.
Emma and Joseph are both right age, both born right place and have a Durham connection. Its possible that Frederick died and Emma moved north and met James, or was already there.
Theres also a birth of a Joseph Henry Smith on FreeBMD in Elham, Kent (includes Shorncliffe area), Sep qtr 1879, vol 2a p 963. The only Joseph Smith for a few years either side, that I checked, so the middle name matches also.
Alan.
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Hi Alan
This is a conundrum...I need to get my head around it. Thanks very much for the work you have put in! The birth at Elham sounds very interesting. Not sure how to set about the next bit of the search assuming this is right - a search for a marriage between Emma Smith and James Brown perhaps - much later than I have been searching so far.
(On the marriage cert of Joseph Henry Brown to Sarah Elizabeth Tindale (m Dec 1902), his father is down as James Brown, but the witnesses are Thomas Tindale and Robert Little. I've always wondered who that Robert was - any chance of it being the Robert you mention as a brother - or am I just clutching at straws there!)
Many thanks
Hunter
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Did a search for Robert Smith (the 13 year old brother of the Joseph H. Smith in 1891 in Wales), born Canterbury, in the 1901 census. Only about 20 Roberts in total, who were down as born in Canterbury, two years either side of 1877. No Robert Smith, however, there is a Robert Brown, and he's living in Chester le Street.
1901 census, North Burns, Chester le St., RG13/4699 page 14.
Robert Brown, head, married 23, Core (?) Hewer, b. Canterbury, Kent
Agnes Ann Brown, wife, 22, b. Pelton Fell
James W. Brown, son 7m, b. Chester le Street.
Looking on FreeBMD for an Agnes Ann, b. Chester le Street (Pelton Fell is in Chester le Street district). Only one around the right time is :
Agnes Ann Bankhead, b.Chester le Street, Jun qtr 1878, vol 10a p. 571.
Looking then for a marriage of Agnes Ann Bankhead. On FreeBMD she married either Peter Hanley or Isaac Robert Smith. Chester le Street, Sep qtr 1898, vol 10a page 825. Durham County Council website confirms she married Isaac R. Smith.
Looking for a birth of Isaac Robert Smith on FreeBMD, only 2 on record. One in 1858, and one Dec qtr 1877 in Canterbury, vol 2a p 272.
Looks like they moved north and gradually all took their stepfathers surname.
Welcome to the Smith family.
Alan.
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Hi Alan
I am absolutely amazed at this - and thank you so very much for all your detective work. I've been trying to figure it out but hadn't got far. My family will all be so surprised - especially my brothers who are not real Browns, but Smiths! What are the chances of that?
I'll try to get a bit further back with the Smiths now - although I think it will be as hard as the Browns. I'd love to track down this Emma as well - an Irish connection was also a big surprise at the time.
And thanks for the family welcome!
Ms V Brown-Smith (hmm I quite like it).
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Hello fellow Smith,
Joseph Henry Browns World War 1 Service Records are on line at Ancestry. 12 pages worth. Did you get these during your subscription? I notice that he named his oldest son Frederick, which ties in with his fathers name.
Alan.
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Hello,
I look at Birtley records quite a lot as I've got ancestors there. Would you like me to look for James Brown c. 1846 the next time I'm down at the archives?
Believe it or not Brown is not that common in Birtley. We've got plenty of Irish mind you!
Do you know if they were C of E, or Catholic, or Methodist for that matter? It would save me an awful lot of time.
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Hi
I'm just about to go insane as I am having so much difficulty trying to find my paternal grandfather and his ancestors. I've been at it for years!
Sadly his name was Joseph Henry Brown - not the most unusual...
The only reference to him and his family I have found is on the 1901 census:
Living at 1 Hedworth St, Chester le Street
James Brown, Head, M, 55, Labourer, b. Durham, Birtley
Emma, Wife, 57, b Ireland
James Wm, son, 34, Merchant Seaman, b. Newcastle on Tyne
Joseph H, son, 21, Labourer, County Council, b. Kent Thorncliffe
The 'Thorncliffe' might be a mistake by the enumerator - it might be Shorncliffe which was an army barracks, or possibly a prison I believe. I can't find any birth record for Joseph W. I have no idea why the family was in Kent....never heard of them being there before.
I know the Joseph H is the right chap as I have a copy of his marriage cert to my grandmother and he was still at the same address.
Can anyone suggest any other route to find records for any of them?
Just had a quick look on Ancestry and there is a James Brown b. 1844 living in Eighton Banks on the 1871 census, he is married to a Sarah, but he says he was born in Lamesley. Which is literally 1 mile from Birtley, so he worth a look, or at least put on the' back burner' for later.
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Hi
This is really kind of you - thanks very much. Yes that would be wonderful. They were almost certainly C of E I would think as my father (his 'grandson' - but not by birth I now know) was brought up in the Church way.
I look forward very much to hearing if you can find anything. It might help me to find out who the other son was (James William) or even the elusive Irish (Belfast) Emma.
Best wishes
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Well this could be interesting as the parish church of St.John's was consecrated in 1849 according to my notes. A couple of years to late for your James Brown.
I'm not quite sure what was there before hand, by notes say they had to use Chester-le-Street before then, I hope not. Those records are held at Durham. But I might have a look at St.Andrews at Lamesley and check out this James Brown who was born in 1844. Honestly it would take an estate agent to tell you where Lamesley finished and Birtley began. Ditto Eighten Banks by the way, it's all a very grey area. It might be the same chap!
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Sorry me again !
Are you familiar with the Bishops Transcrips available via Family Search ?
Anyway if you go the page http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=3;c=1309819;w=412
If that doesn't work Durham/Lamesley/ on page 771 a James Gilbert Brown was baptised on the 10 March 1844. Parents were James and Mary Brown abode Allerdean, that's very close to Birtley! James snr is a husband man.
HTH
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Hi
This is a fantastic resource - I've not seen it before.
Thanks
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Just for the record I've looked for James Brown 1846 at Chester le Street and Washington and no one fits the bill at all.
Unless he was born somewhere else that baptism at Lamesley is your best bet.
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Thanks for all the help - I'll pursue the Lamesley one.
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If you are interested in the line of Agnes Ann Bankhead, I can be of some assistance