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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: acceber on Sunday 25 January 09 15:31 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
Can any rootschatters help solve a little mystery and identify what is going on in this picture?
I estimate it to date from between 1890-1900, guessing by the age of my Grt Grandfather who is standing behind the man on the chair with his head tilted. Apart from him, I have no idea who anyone else is in the picture or what they are doing, or what the picture would have been taken for.
I don't need this picture edited, just a bit of insight into its possible purpose!
Any input is much appreciated! :)
Thanks,
acceber
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Looks like a hunt, Rebecca. The guy with the hat will be the master and it looks like a stable yard or hounds kennels.
:D
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A hunt, now that is something I hadn't thought of! Thanks Arranroots
Yes I thought it was probably a stable, which is more than likely, as my Grt Grandfather came from a big farming family. At this time, they were based in South Glous, so if this is a hunt scene, it could possibly be for the Beaufort Hunt.
Is it possible that the man on the chair was the farmer/stable owner then? and that any of the men were related?
Thanks,
acceber
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Your guess is as good as mine, lol!
It reminds me of the Berkeley Hunt kennels but it could be any kind of yard, I suppose.
Might be worth contacting local hunts to see whether they have records of your grandfather? What was his occupation?
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Hi
It looks like they may have known each other quite well, as your Great Grandfather has his hand on the seated man's shoulder.
I doubt that he would have done that if the seated man had been his employer.
Do you have your Gr grandfather in the 1891/1901 census? If so you could possibly look at the neighbours he had, that may have owned farms/stables or lived in the 'big House' of the parish.
Nice photo!
deb :)
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Thank you both for your replies. :)
Arran - Yes I will have a search and see if the Berkley (I'd forgotten about that one) and the Beaufort have any records.
On the 1901 census my Grt Grandfather was 19 and is down as 'Farmer's Son', he was the eldest of 10 and had 8 brothers who also helped on the farm. His father was (I think) tenant farmer, or at least started out so in Wick, but his uncle, inherited the freehold farm of 200+ acres in Bitton.
Deb - thats a good point, that it is unlikely the seated man was his employer, so it may have been his uncle, or possibly his father (unfortuntaly I dont have any pictures of them to ascertain this)? I did think the younger boys looked as though they may be related?
Thanks,
acceber
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I thought it might be something to do with a hunt but possibly a gathering of "beaters" prior to a "shoot"? Does G-Grandfather have any connection with the landed gentry and big estates that might have held regular shoots?
It seems to be a fairly informal picture - the chap with the bowler-style hat appears to have a ciggie in his right hand!
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just a thought ...the guy to the far right is not wearing boots .... I recall on the armed forces boards that military guys wore 'something' that looked like what he is wearing.
For the life of me can't remember what they were called.
were any of your gr grandda's siblings military guys?
Also, to me, it looks like the man in tophatbowler hat (thanks Stoney ;D), left of your gr grandad, may have been a gentleman/owner ...his boots are highly polished and his clothing seems to be that of a wealthy man.
deb
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Many thanks everyone for all your continued input!
Stoney -yes a shoot, that may be another possibility, as for any connections to big estates and the gentry, that would be a nice connection!! but not any that I know of.
His family paternal family were reasonably well off farmers, who mainly owned their farms freehold and moved from north Somerset to south glous in the 1860's. His maternal family were larger farmers, my grt grandfather's maternal grandfather inherited his father's large farm in Doynton Glous and was the Gloucestershire Farmer's Delegate to Canada and was invited to travel the country and sent reports of his experiences back to the local papers.
His uncle, inherited his paternal grandfather's farm and when he died suddenly in 1902, the estate amounted to approx. half a million pounds in todays money. So they may have allowed the hunt to use their land, or similarly a shoot to take place. Or they may have stabled some of the horses used in the hunt?
Deb - Yes some of them joined the army in WW1 and I can see what you mean with the strapping on his legs, but none were in the army (to my knowledge prior to the war.
Yes I wondered about the identity of the two older men, the smartly dressed guy who could either be as arran suggested, a hunt master, or a gentleman land owner, and the man on the chair who looks like he was a farmer or stable owner. As far as I have found out the family were well regarded locally, so it could have been a local landowner who had called in. - So perhaps some of them in the picture are related?
So far then it seems that we may have the stables for a hunt, the beaters for a shoot or a local gentleman/land owner and farmer.
Also was photography at that time (c.1890-1900) still done with a tripod camera with a man under a cloth?
Thanks,
acceber
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Hi again
The Boer War was happening around that time ... so maybe there is a war/military connection.
another thought.... what about posting the photo in a local newspaper , you never know, someone may recognise the men and place.
Wish I had a pic of my gr granddad :-\
deb :)
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I wonder if the guy in the hat is the gamekeeper? Bowler hats were originally designed for gentlemen of that occupation. In which case, definitely more of a shoot than a hunt.
Nell
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Probably the best route is to investigate the named individuals in the photo. Perhaps local directories will help?
What name is it btw?
Just to be a pain, here's a hunt photo of kennels in the right period - note the hats!
http://www.foxhuntingvoices.org.uk/northants_library_kennels2.htm
;D
Googling produces photos of Berkeley Hunt kennels and they were brick built, rather than stone (certainly the ones IN Berkeley).
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Many thanks for all of your replies!
My Grt Grandfather was William Sellick b.1881 in Doynton Glous, then his father Thomas moved up the road to Wick where he was farmer for the remainder of his life. Thomas' brother John inherited the Sellick's farm in Upton Cheyney (Bitton) which their father (also called William) had bought in the 1860's. John died in his early 40's in 1902 and his the farm was sold, the total value of the estate being approx. half a million in today's money.
So apart from my Grt Grandfather, William (with the crooked neck) I have no idea who the others are in the picture, whether they are relatives, friends or work colleagues.
To add to the hunt or shoot debate, I googled hunts in doynton, and found that currently there is a Wick and District Beagles(!) hunt, who hunt hares. So perhaps the picture was of kennels and not stables as I previously thought, and maybe my grt grandfather worked with the dogs or was involved in the hunt.
Thanks,
acceber
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just a thought ...the guy to the far right is not wearing boots .... I recall on the armed forces boards that military guys wore 'something' that looked like what he is wearing.
For the life of me can't remember what they were called. Puttees--Viktoria
were any of your gr grandda's siblings military guys?
Also, to me, it looks like the man in tophatbowler hat (thanks Stoney ;D), left of your gr grandad, may have been a gentleman/owner ...his boots are highly polished and his clothing seems to be that of a wealthy man.
deb
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Actually they are not wearing either beagling or hunting kit...
The chap far right is wearing puttees...
I would punt that they are the beaters for a shoot....
Yes they are in a Victorian stable yard...the bricks are "cut" thus for ease of washing down / sweeping.
All the boots and puttees would point to the needing to "get out there" in the gorse and bramble etc.
Only x2 appear to be wearing breeches though.
Stag, otter and beagle hunts have very specific types of "uniform" for each activity. Even an am amount of the hunt followers. These do not, so that's why I'm going for "beaters" ;D ;)
Your Gt granddad with his head tilted...Any family history of spondylitis??
Or was he injured in some way (WW1 etc?)
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The two doors behind the men look like stable doors although the bottom half of the doors looks a bit high.
Jean
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The two doors behind the men look like stable doors although the bottom half of the doors looks a bit high.
Jean
Don't forget that due to poor nutrition etc, most men were only around 5' 2-6" in height....
I know most of my family were from their Army attestation sheets....And they were mainly farm hands /estate workers etc. I even had a Gt Gran who was 4' 8"
I reckon this is why the lower halves look high... ;) ;D
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hi
i have a question....
Acceber ..you say that the photo is of your Gr grandfather William Sellick b 1881 .... on the 1901 he is 19 ...your Gr granddad looks older than 19 , if the pic was taken circa 1900. Maybe his cap makes him look older .... sorry don't mean to be rude
or do i have the info wrong? :-\ :-[
deb
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hi
i have a question....
Acceber ..you say that the photo is of your Gr grandfather William Sellick b 1881 .... on the 1901 he is 19 ...your Gr granddad looks older than 19 , if the pic was taken circa 1900. Maybe his cap makes him look older .... sorry don't mean to be rude
or do i have the info wrong? :-\ :-[
deb
I thought that as well!
I just presumed it was later and the original dates were typos! ;D ;D
I would have put it around 1920-5 actually...Lots of post war boots around! I suppose it could be wartime...Hmmm...Except for the old chap second in from left with long coat and hat...they all appear to have military boots of one description or another on...
But your old boy is certainly older than 19!!
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I have been checking the 1901 census near where William Sellick and family lived (Limebrook Farm)...there is a place named Riding Barn Hill.
Other farms around are;
Toghill Farm
Highfield lodge
Home Apple Hill
Oak Lodge
Holbrook farm
Court farm
Wick Green house and Farm (the parish is Wick ,,,there is a Wick Church ...wonder if Wick Green house and farm is the main farm?)
Wick Rocks (Rock House)
1 farmer living at Nashcombe Hill
the enumerator mentions a Cold Harbour Farm which I didn't see (or maybe missed :P)
deb :)
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Hello!
Thanks for all your replies!! :)
re: the date - I estimated he was in his early 20's but that may be wrong. So if the consensus is that it is post 1914 that would would make him 34+, at which point he was living in Wales (so I currently cant find him on the 1911 census). 1920's would make him in his 40's and back in South Glous, i'm not convinced he's quite that old, the chap on the chair looks to me more like he's in his 40's.
re: his height - I don't have an exact height, but from other later pictures he looks quite tall. His brother was 5' 10 on his WW1 conscription forms and my grandad was 6ft.
re: his neck - I was told that his head was tilted because of a cord in his neck (?) which was trapped at birth, and his mother refused to let him have an operation to correct it, (she died in 1908) but he did so later on. (Although that may not be that accurate)
Looks like the general concensus is that they are probably beaters for a shoot then!
I did find these pictures on the net of a beagle hunt - with a not to dissimilar dress. http://www.hunting-directory.co.uk/gallery/huntname_caynsham-0.php
Deb - yes I had a look on microsoft maps ariel pictures and the land definitly looks good for hunting, with large grassy fields and hedges, so it may well be a local building.
Thanks,
acceber
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Here are similar boots and breeches...If not the same!!
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l102/scrimnet/npton5th.jpg)
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Since we seem to be firmly Gloucestershire-based with this query, I've been having great fun with this website, trying to find a hunt, shooting party, band of decommissioned soldiers ::) ;D who look like Rebecca's ancestor:
http://www.gertlushonline.co.uk/
Enjoy!
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Keep looking at the chap sitting down-there is something distinctly Irish about the style of and the manner in which he is wearing his small hat, very rakish, lots of grooms and stableboys were Irish, coming from the Curragh with Bloodstock bought by English aristocrats. On the other hand the breeches the men are wearing were standard gear for many farmers. Go to Welshpool stockmarket on market days and you can still see them.
Viktoria
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Keep looking at the chap sitting down-there is something distinctly Irish about the style of and the manner in which he is wearing his small hat, very rakish, lots of grooms and stableboys were Irish, coming from the Curragh with Bloodstock bought by English aristocrats. On the other hand the breeches the men are wearing were standard gear for many farmers. Go to Welshpool stockmarket on market days and you can still see them.
Viktoria
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I'd better go and mug a few of them then if front tying WW1 military breeches are still available...They cost a fortune on EvilBay...They are quite, quite rare!
As for the "Irish" hat... Very many men wore hats in that manner in those days, including but not exclusively those form over the water ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Just a thought....
You say that some of the siblings served in WW1....
What were their ranks?? Do you have any service details??
I bet one was a Lt and a couple were Capt / Maj...
The four with military breeches and boots...and puttees...And they could just be on leave...And mum has knitted them all the same cardy!
;D ;D ;D
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Scrimnet
I noticed the cardies too !!!
The guy with the 'bowler hat' also seems to be wearing a cravat .... the guy seated almost looks to be wearing a T-shirt ....as someone said earlier ...it's a very informal picture ... maybe they were not doing anything or going to do anything ..
deb
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Hi Scrimnet, I didn`t think that it had been definitely established that they were WW1 front tying breeches, I thought it was still open to question just exactly what these men were doing and why they were wearing these particular clothes .I still feel there is a strong Irish link. The" cardigans" look to be a kind of uniform too.The height of the division of the half-opening stable type doors would indicate big 17 hands hunters. It is a very interesting topic and I look forward to a solution ,it has really caught my curiosity.Viktoria
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Re the "cardigans" they look very like ones I have seen men wearing, it suddenly came to mind, they are not knitted but corduroy at the front and other woven fabric at the back. They were like a sleeved waistcoat.
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Hello all!
It is a very interesting topic and I look forward to a solution ,it has really caught my curiosity.
Thank you! yes I'm fascinated too, and very grateful for all the replies so far. ;D
Well with regards to his brothers in WW1 - they were all privates in their various regiments and one was a trooper in the Royal Horse Guards. I don't know if my grt grandfather himself fought as he would have been 34 in 1914 and married to his first wife, and I think married men were exempt initially. - I do have a picture of 2 of his bro's in their army uniform and neither are in this picture here.
If we think that this is sometime during the war period, then it could be in Wales, as my grt grandfather moved to S. Wales between 1908-1918.
I agree that it is definitely very informal, some very formal and some the complete opposite! I think my grt grandad looks like he may have a tie on under his jacket. Thats why its such a mystery as to what's going on in the picture and why it was taken!
Arranroots - what a fab website! yes I'm sure theres the odd ancestor or two hidden on there somewhere! ;D
Thanks,
acceber
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Hi
Just looked at the picture again .... trying to find small clues...
The seated man, it looks like, has a wide belt on with something attached to it (right hand side) ...looks like a whistle.
deb
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You've better eyes than I have Gunga Din!! ;D ;D
;D
There is something there, perhaps a close up at high res would be useful!
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Well spotted!! :)
Yes, I can definitely see some sort of chain with something attached! and can also see what looks like a cigarette in the hand of the smartly dressed man in the back row, as pointed out earlier.
Unfortunately this is the only image I have, which is a photograph my cousin took of the original which is in an album of another relative. :-\
Thanks,
acceber
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Oh blimey!
This has done the rounds hasn't it???!!!!
Any chance of approaching said relative??
I'm sure we would all love to get to the bottom of this now!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi
Scrimnet ;D ;D ;D wouldn't it be fabulous if , on the back of the photo, it named everyone, told of the occasion and where it was ....
deb :)
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Hi
Scrimnet ;D ;D ;D wouldn't it be fabulous if , on the back of the photo, it named everyone, told of the occasion and where it was ....
deb :)
Oh...to sleep....perchance to dream....
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;D ;D
we live in hope .............
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;D ;D
we live in hope .............
Do you??
I know of a New Hope in Ohio, and a Mount Hope in New Jersey, a Hope in Arkansas, and one in North Virginia...Didn't realise there is one in North Carolina as well.....
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ahem!
Slightly off topic??
:P
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OK OK...But I couldn't resist it whilst we were waiting for an answer about approaching said relative....
Educate and entertain...They are my watchwords...
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Hello,
I have seen the back of the photo and unfortunatly it doesn't say anything ???
May have the opportunity to see them in Feb, but not sure if they have a scanner to scan it better, or if they would allow me to borrow it to scan. :-\
Will of course let you all know if I can get a better copy!!
Thanks for all your help so far! ;D
acceber
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So the original is part of another relatives album?
It seems that this other relative could therefore also be in the photo. Is that a possibility?
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No this relative, is firstly a lady, and secondly significantly younger than those in the photograph!!
Thanks,
acceber
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Ah, that clears that up then.
You need to flick through that album, you may well find some of those men re-appearing. It's worth a shot.
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I hope your photo has found its way on to local history/genealogy groups by now. I’m aware that Pucklechurch still had a beagle back in 1970s (might be under Abson) I think. Interested in your UptonCheyney connections as belong to Bitton History Group.