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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: WelwynGC1 on Sunday 25 January 09 11:20 GMT (UK)
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Hello All, this is my first post and may be a long shot....attached is a photo of 21 brave airmen of Bomber Command, taken at the end of an air gunnery course in March 1943. My uncle who was lost without trace on ops to Berlin in Sept 43 is pictured front row right, John William Hayton.
Of course it is very difficult to research when you only have surnames, but l am 99% sure that a few are Canadian and am making enquiries. Hope there is someone out there who may spot a relative. Maybe there are one or two that survived the war?
Best Regards.
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Welcome to RC and welcome to the Armed Forces board.
I too have a rellie lost on ops over Germany, but he is not on that pic...But thanks for posting it...It will be very useful to someone out there I don't doubt.
Most of the RAF gurus on the web hide out at http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/index.php
You will have to register, but they are the boys with some most excellent knowledge...
Not that we don't have on here!! ;D ;D
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Welcome to the site. As much information you can give will help, i.e. full name, service number, Squadron he served with etc.
It is possible to get his service records, the following link might help and hopefully someone will come up with further suggestions.
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html
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Thanks for the welcome David, l already have all my Uncles details, his service number, squadron etc., but of course my curiosity is about the other 20 on the photo. I am told it would have been the end of the training course as they all have their wings and the three guys with the armbands would have been the instructors.
They would have all gone off to different squadrons l assume? For the record these are my Uncles details (pictured front right).
John William Hayton 100 Squadron Waltham (Grimsby)
1333343 RAFVR
Lost Without Trace on ops to Berlin 3/4 Sept 43. Lancaster JA969 HW-N
The family were originally from Hebburn (near Newcastle) but moved to Herts in the thirties.
I am told the course was in Canada, and l have already done some research on this which is ongoing. My aim is to know something about each airman on the pic..............Heroes All.
Regards.
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You probably have this already ... but just in case !! ( the names of the rest of the crew ! )
Date 03/04 September 1943 Type Lancaster Serial No JA969
Squadron/Unit 100 Sqn del'd 8-43 HW-N
Classification FTR
Night/Day Raid Night
Target/Tasking Berlin
Crew Names Sgt. E.B. Harvey +; Sgt. A.L. Kent +; Sgt. R.E. Longford +; Sgt. W.F. Garner +; Sgt. C.L. Hamilton +;
Sgt. L.S. Reynolds +; Sgt. J.W. Hayton +
http://www.lancaster-archive.com/lanc_losses_sep43.htm
Annie :)
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In Memory of
Sergeant JOHN WILLIAM HAYTON
1333343, 100 Sqdn., Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
who died age 20
on 04 September 1943
Son of Charles and Annie Hayton, of Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire.
Remembered with honour
RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL
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Well Sgt Reginald Herbert Exon survived to 30/06/44 when he was killed while serving with No.180 Sqn.
Regards
Ross
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Thanks Ross, with an unusual name like that can l comfortably assume that is the one? Is he listed as a rear gunner? If so that is another piece to the jigsaw for which l am very grateful, thanks again. I will have to invest in Chorleys Bomber Command losses of 1944 to help me as l only have the 43 edition for obvious reasons.
Thanks also to Liverpool Annie...l did have those details but appreciate you taking the time to post. Only correction to crew is Langford not Longford.
Regards all!!
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Well Sgt Reginald Herbert Exon survived to 30/06/44 when he was killed while serving with No.180 Sqn.
Hi Ross, l have a question, cant see this in Bill Chorleys 1944 volume, so was it not on ops?? Maybe an HCU?
Regards.
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It seems that 180 Squadron was part of the 2nd Tactical Air Force, and at the time of Sgt Exons death (June 1944) was supporting the push out of Normandy after D-Day.
Flying Mitchells??
I am intrigued to know if its the same Exon on my photo?
Anyone know anymore about this squadron?
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Hi,
Sorry missed this first time around.
Mitchell II was the RAF name for the B-25, twin engined medium bomber used by the Americans.
No.180 Sqn started as a light bomber squadron in Bomber Command flying mostly daylight bombing operations.
When the allies moved into the continent it was agreed that an expeditionary air force would be allocated to the commanders dedicated to their operational needs. No.180 was one of the light bomber units transferred from Bomber Command to the new force. The new force comprised of both bombers and fighters all dedicated to ground support operations and was desginated the 2nd Tactical Air Force (2 TAF).
As the forces moved into Germany it was reformed, some units returning to Air Defence GB and some forming the new force for the occupation.
This is why you cannot find the loss in Chorley as his books only cover Bomber Command. 2nd TAF losses are briefly mentioned by J Foreman in his Fighter Command Diaries but this is not to the level of detail in the Midland Counties Loss series.
For brief details of No.180 Sqn
http://www.rafcommands.com/Bomber/180B.html
http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/180squadron.cfm
Your best source, for any RAF unit, is the Squadron Operational Record Book (ORB) held at Kew. This is the squadron war diary and lists details on a daily and monthly basis that the squadron scribe felt noteworthy.
Regards
Ross
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There is a four volume work on 2 TAF - 2nd Tactical Air Force by Christopher Shores & Chris Thomas which has some casualty details. I found an in law lost Jan 45 in vol 3 so I guess you might need vol 2. I borrowed the book from my local library
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Thanks Ross for the info about 180 Squadron.....so can l safely assume that is the same Exon as on my photo???
I hope to get the ball rolling this week and try to obtain my Uncles full service record. Once l have asked my Dad to help with the next of kin stuff should be interesting. I am told the photo was taking in Canada so l suppose that at least narrows it down to one of the Air Gunnery schools. Ontario??
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Following the arrival of my Uncles service records, l can confidently say that the photo was taken at No. 34 OTU Pennfield Ridge, New Brunswick.
I would like to find out something more about the other 20 on the photo, though of course without initials its a big task. The Bomber Command losses books are a big help as they tend to list the crew in Pilot to rear gunner order, so l have looked at 43/44 and noted down a few possibles but who knows??
Wouldnt it be amazing if there is someone on the photo still alive!!
Steve.
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Hi all, just to refresh, l can also say that my Uncle did some training at No.9 Bombing and Gunnery School, Mont-Joli, Quebec.
Would love to hear from someone who can tell me more about Mont-Joli, and the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan.
Unfortunately, there dont seem to be any records of courses so it looks like l will never be able to put Initials with the surnames on my photo.
Thanks for reading.
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We remember my Uncle this week on the date that would have been his 87th birthday.
Of course he will always be Twenty.
Does anyone have an example of the form/forms he would have filled in when applying for the RAFVR??
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Hi Steve
Was he drafted? If so the notice should be in his records.
Pete
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Hi Pete, hope all is well with you.
I dont think he was drafted, there wasn`t anything in the records to say so.
Somewhere in the recent past l recall seeing an old newspaper cutting with a Join the RAFVR headline. A little bit in the style of the old Your Country Needs You poster.
Just cant remember where though l will keep looking and maybe stumble across it again.
Steve.
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Steve
Just a thought re the Canadians have you thought of seeing whether the archivists at the RCAF museum have any ideas. Fournier is definitely a french name and they may be able to id the course from that. Pity you dont have your rellies log book as that would tell you where and what re the course...
Denise
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Hi dee, apart from my Uncle l currently have definite details about the following and can at last provide initials.
RM FOURNIER
JH BARKWELL
A FRITH
RH EXON
Its a jigsaw puzzle but maybe one day l will find all the pieces.
I am in touch with someone at the military history society at Pennfield Ridge, New Brunswick, where the photo was taken.
Steve.
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hello steve, i`m sorry to go off topic, but i am researching my dad`s uncle you posted about, minelaying ops 1943 on ED583. the name is R.G Evans, he was posted to 625 sqd. i just wanted to know if you found out anymore after your post as i`m researching his service before he went to 625sqd. i was led to your post after doing a name search over the weekend. as i`m a newbie on this forum i`m still trying to figure out how to do a p.m.
steve
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Hi Steve and welcome to roots chat.
I have struggled to find out much about any of the crew on that minelaying op, the second of my Uncles three ops.
I do know that there was nearly an accident because two aircraft on the same op went off the runway and got bogged down so there was a near miss apparently.
I would say that your best option is to apply for service records, someone on here will have the details you require, if you look at some of the other posts there will be a link somewhere. You need next of kin authority....l just got my Dad to give authority in a letter for me to have the records. It costs £30 but the results are well worth waiting for. Remember to ask for actual photocopies of the records or you just get a summary. I had a great time deciphering all the codes, and the folk on here will undoubtedly help you with any queries.
I only knew the end of my Uncles story but the records told me everything else from when he joined up so go for it!!
As far as the PM thing goes, l believe you have to do a few posts before you can PM anyone. Check the requirements on the welcome page.
Best of luck.........
Steve.
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Steve, the page says you need to post three times before you can send a PM.
Go to HELP on the home page.
Steve.
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You could try posting on RAFcommands forum aswell. Scrimnet I am sure will tell you that they have some people with fab information access on there...
Dee
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Just found the link I was looking for applications for service records its:
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.htm
Hope this will help
Dee
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Dee you are a DIAMOND....thats exactly what l was looking for and couldnt remember.
Steve.
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Found it when I was looking at another entry ages ago and wrote it down! I have a memory like a sieve and its so useful for the overseas people...
Dee
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Another 99% certain l now know is "Roy Clifford Haycock" killed on the infamous Nuremberg raid at the end of March 1944.
The one l am researching at the moment is "*******"........the only one l can find that was an A/G and fits the timescale is one (Name removed in case he is still living) who was with 78 Squadron and was shot down in December 43 and became a POW.
Camp 4B Muhlberg-Elbe 267487. (Prisoner no.)
No way of telling if its the same one though, unless someone knows different?
I am also told that P/O Tubman survived the war and died in 2008.
Steve.
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Steve
78 Sqn are having a reunion sometime in the near future. I cant remember which of the forums I saw that on - think its rafcommands I am sure if you emailed the contact for that he would ask his vets for you (or go along to it). if not rafcommands try www.ww2talk.com or www.cfww2.com for the 78 sqn reunion thread.
Dee
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Thanks Dee, have just registered with a WW2 forum, though not one of those....have to activate it from home as l do most of my viewing at work but use my home email.
Will have a look, lots of 78 sq info.
Steve.
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Scrimnet can probably tell you cos I bet he keeps tabs on the other forums too!
Dee
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Wonderful! I have just come across your photo of the 21 brave airman. Reggie Exon was a distant cousin of mine and I have been trying to find out what happened to him. Is it possible to get a better copy (without the slant).
He is buried in my local cemetery
Beevee
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Wonderful reply Beevee.....l was hoping when l originally posted that l would one day have contact with another relative. Unfortunately l do not have a better copy of the photo.
Imagine the job l have had trying to find stuff out without knowing their initials!!
Reginald Herbert Exon was a bit easier because of the unusual surname.
The photo was taken in Canada....no. 34 Operational Training Unit which was at Pennfield Ridge New Brunswick.
Exon somehow found his way to 180 Squadron which was part of the second Tactical Air Force, supporting the invasion after D-Day. sadly he was killed at the end of June 44 when they were shot down.
1601071 Flight Sergeant R H Exon RAFVR
Son of Herbert George and Mary Maud Exon of Keynsham.
Sadly my Uncle was lost without trace.
Try the Pennfield Parish Military history site for a possible better photo.
And again.........thanks for posting.
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Beevee is this any better??
Steve.
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Thanks Steve, I never thought I would get a picture of Reggie after all these years. The second is much better.
He was the son of my great uncle Herbert Exon who ran a dairy in Keynsham and I often worked for Herbert washing out bottles. His death affected Herbert greatly and of course when he in turn died he had no heir and the business had to be sold off. Sadly a few months after Reggie's death Herbert was the one to find the body of another airman impaled on beanpoles after a wellington crashed near Keynsham! Reggies remains were returned to his family who buried him in Keynsham Cemetery.
I am sorry to see that uncle disappeared without trace: its a shame you cant find out where he met his end. Regards Brian
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Great Brian, l wonder if Reggie was at the same gunnery school as my Uncle....No 9 at Mont-Joli,Quebec.
I suspect my Uncles Lancaster went down in the North Sea, but at least he played his part, albeit for only three missions. I have his service records and his medals and the fateful telegram that told the family he was missing.....all very poignant. (See my letters and telegrams thread)
My current project is to find out as much as l can about the other twenty men on the photo......difficult l know but it will keep me occupied!
Regards......
Steve.
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Steve, Are you sure that the photo was taken at Pennfield Ridge Base ?
I notice that a number 9 has been superimposed on the caption. Could it have been taken at No.9 AG course at Mont-joli?
Brian
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Hi Brian, yes it is definitely Pennfield Ridge, No. 34 OTU.
Course No.9 A/Gs 23/3/1943.
When l was researching and looking through various websites l came across a photo of Trainee Pilots....and l thought, there is something about the picture that is familiar.......it was the same background as in my picture. The site was the Pennfield Parish Military History Society....go to photos on there and have a look, amazing. Some of our A/Gs ended up crewing with some of these pilots so it made identification easier.
I also have a photo taken at Mont-Joli but without the names unfortunately and its also not very clear. Will try to attach here .......my Uncle is 3rd from right front row. Maybe Sgt Exon is on there too. There are certainly some resemblances!! WONT UPLOAD, WILL FIND YOU THE LINK AND REPOST
Best regards.......Steve.
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/088m/
Hope it works Brian.
Steve.
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Thanks for clarifying that and the second photo Steve. Yes there might be some similar faces but I cant be sure if one of them is Sgt Exon.
Regards Brian
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/088z/
Have a look at this too Brian, l wonder if you have any similar documentation??
Steve.
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Thanks Steve . Some moving stories there. No I dont have any such material unfortunately because his only direct relative, his sister, moved away from the area when the business was sold and may well have passed on since then. I have been sent similar telegrams etc regarding war casualties in my capacity as a founding member of the Bath Blitz Memorial Project. If you have time and in need of reading material you might be interested to peruse some of the stories on our website www.bathblitz.org.uk
Brian
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Sorry Steve . Correction -Leave off the UK.
Brian
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Many thanks for sending me a photo 0f Reggies actual grave, another piece of the jigsaw!!
Steve.
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Glad to see bits are still falling in to place Steve.
Brian - is there a bath blitz exhibition, we often pop over, nice to have a look if so - only over in Cannington.
Pete
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Sorry Pete. We have mounted exhibitions from time to time but nothing permanent so far - despite representations to the council whom seem to think that Bath's only history consists of the Roman & Georgian periods (they bring in the tourists). We live in hope! Meanwhile we try to keep the website up to date. Brian
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Steve
I presume your relative is on the Runnymede Wall. Have you been there? I hope to go there soon. Will post some photos when I do. If you (or anyone else) want a pic of any specific name please let me know...
Dee
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Dee,
If you have time to look for a Ft/Sgt R.H. Exon I would be grateful
Beevee
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Hi Dee and Beevee..........yes Dee l have been to Runnymede and its a wonderfully peaceful place, (l have tried to attach some pics for you but it says my attachments are too large). Will try a PM.
Brian.......Reggie wont be on there as the memorial is to those who have no known grave.
I found the names of my Uncle and his crew and touched the letters on the walls, feeling a connection with the past.
It is built at the top of a hill.....and for me "Reaches Up and Touches Heaven".
Steve.
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Glad to see bits are still falling in to place Steve.
Brian - is there a bath blitz exhibition, we often pop over, nice to have a look if so - only over in Cannington.
Pete
Hi Pete, yes its great when a piece of info presents itself......one day the lot????????
Hope all is well with you.
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Hi Beevee,
I am interested in learning more about Reggie Exon. Please contact me in regards to my research.
Regards,
G Christian Larsen
President Pennfield Parish Military Historical Society
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nbpennfi/penn8bAirStation.htm
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Hi Christian, and welcome to RC. Lots of great helpful folk on here, just like you!!
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A brief note to thank all those folk far and wide who have helped with this since my first post in Jan 2009.
I started out knowing only that my Uncle was on the photo.....now l know when and where it was taken and have details for another six of the airmen pictured. As l once mentioned it is my aim if possible to find out something about each man, if only to confirm identity.
I am going to try and get the picture to a wider audience in the hope that someone will spot a relative. I will of course report back with anything l find. Some of the success stories l read on this site can only give me the drive and determination to carry on.
Thankyou and good luck in whatever info you seek!!
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Dee,
If you have time to look for a Ft/Sgt R.H. Exon I would be grateful
Beevee
I now have a date to go to Runnymede so will add your guy to my list. I will take pics of the cemetary area as well as the bit on the roll of honour for you.
Dee
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Hi Dee and Beevee..........yes Dee l have been to Runnymede and its a wonderfully peaceful place, (l have tried to attach some pics for you but it says my attachments are too large). Will try a PM.
Brian.......Reggie wont be on there as the memorial is to those who have no known grave.
Hi Dee.....the details wont be there, Ruunymede memorial commemorates those who have no known grave. Enjoy your visit....sure you will be struck by the atmosphere of the place......its special.
Steve.
Steve.
Somehow it got mixed up with the quote but it will save you looking for something that aint there.
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Almost forgot Dee....dont go to the tea rooms....its about 20-30 mins walk up through the wood to get to the memorial......find Coopers Hill and there is a car park right next to the memorial.
Do let us know what you think of it too.
I think its Junction 13 M25?
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Am a member of National Trust (next door) and I think that has directions. Will certainly let you know what I think.... Noted about the tea rooms...
Thanks for that Welwyn.. ;D
Dee
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Hey dee, did you get to Runnymede yet, and if so what did you think???
My research continues on the task of trying to find out more about the airmen on the photo.
Latest bit is regarding Sgt Wellard. There was an RC Wellard who became a POW and was with 78 Squadron. Maybe its the same one as l could not find many with that name and this was the only one that fitted the dates l have for the course pictured etc.
Anyone assist with some contact details for helpful folk with 78 squadron???
Thanks.
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67 Years ago today my family received the fateful telegram to report that my Uncle had failed to return from an operation on Fri 3/9.
We remember him today along with all those who left our shores and saw home no more.
Never forgotten.
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Latest bit is regarding Sgt Wellard. There was an RC Wellard who became a POW and was with 78 Squadron. Maybe its the same one as l could not find many with that name and this was the only one that fitted the dates l have for the course pictured etc.
Welwyn
Have you tried ADM199 hes the POW expert. He goes to Kew on a regular basis and might be able to find out some stuff for you. contact details for 78 Sqn are:78 Squadron Grp Capt Ivor F Easton RAF(Retd), 2 Orchard Lodge, Boverton, Llantwit Major, South Glamorgan, Wales CF61 1UH: tel 01446 793022
RIP for your uncle Welwyn he will not be forgotten and will be commemorated each May with the rest of the brave lads
Dee
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Thanks DEE, l will give it a go, its a while since l had any success with my research so any help is much appreciated.
Steve.
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I remember my Uncle today on the 88th anniversary of his birth.
Though he will forever be 20..........
He will never be forgotten.
Lost without trace on ops to Berlin 3/4 Sept 1943.
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Him and many other brave lads.
If it wasnt for them, it'd probably be us.
Cheers mate.
Pete.
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As my endless task continues l just wanted to take the opportunity to refresh the topic in the hope that once again someone may spot a relative.
Thanks for reading.
Steve (WelwynGC1)
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Hi Steve,
Can not help with names, but I do have a record that states JA969 was lost after a total air time of 96 hrs.
Geoff
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Always worth doing this
As my endless task continues l just wanted to take the opportunity to refresh the topic in the hope that once again someone may spot a relative.
Thanks for reading.
Steve (WelwynGC1)
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Hi Steve,
Can not help with names, but I do have a record that states JA969 was lost after a total air time of 96 hrs.
Geoff
Thanks Geoff, astonishingly after all these years l found a book with a picture of JA969 HW-N Lanc Mk111. It was taken on an air test sometime after it arrived at Waltham.
A great book but hard to find...
LANCASTER OPERATIONS- ONE SQUADRONS CONTRIBUTION TO THE BOMBER OFFENSIVE by IAN REID (All about 100 Squadron).
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Hi Steve,
I have a book by Wing Commander (I think) Bruce Robinson called "LANCASTER - The Story of a Famous Bomber"
Signed by himself & crew. It is No. 311 of ?
It is mainly about the craft rather than the people, but has many photos, plus a whole list of all Lancasters & Manchesters by serial No. & their fate. This is where I got the flight hours of JA969 from. Give me a while & I will go through it to see if I can find any info in it regarding JA969 or people in your photo.
I lent it to a friend a while ago, who's father was in Lancasters. His dad found a photo of himself & crew. He was over the moon, but died shortly after.
I am not an aviation "buff" but have the book passed on by my late father. It is worth so much to me for this reason.
Geoff
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Another feint line of enquiry, and another brazen refresh of my thread (sorry) but l figure as there were so many airmen that trained in Canada...............
Did your relative train at No. 34 OTU Pennfield Ridge, New Brunswick?????
There may well be many mutual benefits in finding out as great research is ongoing with the Pennfield Parish Military History Society.
Have a look at the service records and let me know.
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Once again remembering my Uncle on the 89th anniversary of his birth, though yes he will be forever twenty.
Hopefully this will be the year that the 55573 will FINALLY get their official memorial.
Never forget.
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Still watching this Steve.
Cheers
Pete
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Hi Pete, its all gone quiet but you never know what may be around the corner?? :)
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Not just the usual cheeky refresh as l now have details for 11 of the airmen pictured.
One came by chance as another kind roots chatter sent me details of one of the guys funeral, there listed among the mourners was one of the other guys......amazing and confirmed as the right one.
Just two weeks now folks and the Bomber Boys get their long awaited memorial.
Steve.
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Following on from my previous post, it is clear that at least two of the guys,Flitney & Exon went to the 2nd Tactical Air Force flying Mitchells with 180 squadron. Exon was killed and Flitney was a mourner at his funeral and survived.
As they were 2nd TAF their losses dont appear in Bill Chorleys books, but that makes me wonder if there are books on the 2nd TAF which do contain lists.
I am wondering if any of the others went to 180 squadron too, a long shot l know, but still have 10 or so names to find. As far as l know, only my Uncle, JW Hayton, went to 100 squadron.
One for Ross maybe if you are watching?
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Thats good going Steve. ;D
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My Brother and l attended the unveiling of the first phase of the Bomber Command memorial Spire on Canwick Hill in Lincoln last week and l went round and took photos of my Uncles name and all those in his crew. Therefore a good opportunity to refresh the topic in the faint hope that a family member may see the post and get in touch. i must make an effort to trace some more relatives whom l am hoping are out there somewhere.
Brilliant memorial by the way, still 29000 names to add, already special.
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It was a great day with over 300 veterans there. :) Look forward to the Heritage Centre opening and the other 29K other names going on panels in the next two years. Hope to see you at that opening too!
Dee
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Thanks DEE, certainly hope to be there for further unveilings, nice to see you as always, and elsewhere of course!
Best regards from WelwynGC!!
Steve.
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Thanks DEE, certainly hope to be there for further unveilings, nice to see you as always, and elsewhere of course!
Best regards from WelwynGC!!
Steve.
:) :)
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Another cheeky refresh l know but it is the only way to keep attention on it....
Anyway, l have an exciting couple of leads on new information for this thread, keep watching!
Steve.
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Well, having spent about ten years researching my Uncles RAF history l am now proud to report that his story is now in print for all time in a recently published book.
BOMBER COMMAND BATTLE OF BERLIN-FAILED TO RETURN.
My heartfelt thanks to my friend and local bomber command historian Dr Robert Owen and to all those kind folk on this fantastic site that have helped me along the way.
If you are doing something similar in research, there are always people here to provide help and encouragement.
Don`t ever give up!!
Steve.
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My Uncle and my inspiration for all the research would have been 100 years old tomorrow.
Friday 20th January 2023.
Alas forever 20
Never ever forgotten.
RAFVR 1333343
100 Squadron Waltham (Grimsby).