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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Daisy Loo on Saturday 24 January 09 22:13 GMT (UK)
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Having established that Elizabeth McMinn was born in 1855, in Clonmel, Tipperary Ireland (so she was Irish, not Scottish!... or 50/50!!) (Sources: 1911 census, and baptism record from IFHS), and that her parents were Alexander McMinn (BR & MC) and Bridget Cleary (BR), i think it best to start a new thread...(and lock the old one)
But the links to the two other threads are here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,352924.0.html - Was She Scottish or Irish?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,331644 - McMinn Mystery, Help!
Great appreciation to Kath, Monica & Jap & Andy for all the sources and help and Dimps...who has sent me a pic of the address where Elizabeth was living in 1901 and Caroline was visiting as below. (always nice to see a picture...makes things a bit more real somehow)
Continued in next post....to make it shorter ;D
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Okay, so I am as mad as Monica :-* and I took a deep breath, and looked at all the birth records in Clonmel for McMinn. Some interesting things turned up....
The baptism records were for: Elizabeth b.1855, Isobell b.1857, Matilda b.1857, Alexander b.1859, John Alexander b.1860, William b.1862, Emily Jane b.1864, and George Charles b.1870
So, we know that Elizabeth's parents were Alexander & Bridget CLEARY...
Isobell's parents were Alexander McMinn & Bridget ? in a footnote it says "Name of mother not easy to read could be Nulty or Isobell is entered as an Adult after mothers name"
Matilda's parents were Alexander and Bridget CLEARY(so a definate sister for Elizabeth...)
Alexander & John Alexander also of Alexander & Bridget CLEARY, so maybe one of them did die, there was just about a year between them!)
William - Alexander & Bridget McGRATH
Emily Jane (and here is where it gets most interesting!) - Alexander McMinn & Bridget McGRATH...but there is a civil record for her as well...which I had to look at, and glad that I did...her father's occupation is on the civil record, and guess what it is? Sergeant Major Pensioner...and the address is Royal Artillary Barracks. What's more is, that the informant on the civil record is Isobell, listed as her sister, (she would have been 7!) and on the church baptism, the Sponsor is a Catherine McMinn.
Lastly, George Charles - Alexander and Bridget CLEARY
So first question....were there really two Alexander McMinn's both married to a Bridget, both in the RA, and both apparently Sergeant Major's in Clonmel around the same time????
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Just about to log off when I saw the link to your new post :)
Too tired 8) to get my head round it now - but interesting entry on the civil birth record for Emily Jane - don't understand it but too many co-incidences. We still have the issue of the different surname for Bridget mother (Cleary/McGrath). From this entry, it would seem the family were resident at the Royal Artillery Barracks at Clonmel and Alexander Snr. was by now retired.
Monica
Added: Great photo Dimps!
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My purpose now is to find out:
1. When the family came over to England, and who came over to England,
2. Try and get to the bottom of the Bridget CLEARY/McGRATH mystery...are they two different women, or one and the same?
3. What rank was Alexander McMinn Snr really?
4. Try and find out more about the Royal Hibernian School, and the registration of the boys.
I have been chasing down Matilda McMinn now. I was looking at the record for a marriage in 1874...I think I'm going to order that cert.
Can I order the MC with just her name?
I am getting a bit clearer now on what i want to find out...and have been looking at all sorts of sites. :) Go to bed my dear! This one will wait :)
(Edited for clarification)
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There were 2 options for Matilda McMinn: William BRUNT or Henry HEATH in Woolowich 1874.
I couldn't find an Matilda BRUNT anywhere, but I did find a Matilda HEATH in 1881, in Hackney, as a servant, and as a widower at the age of 23. Says she was born in Woolwich. (RG11; Piece: 312; Folio: 101; Page: 50)
I then found a death for a Henry Heath in 1875, in Hackney.
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Have been doing a bit of rummaging around :) Thought I would just put an update here of what I have done so far, and also some of the suggestions that Monica has pm'd me.
First of all, it appears that Alexander McMinn Snr married Bridget Cleary in 1846 in a protestant church. Monica pm'd me a new link for LDS records for Ireland, and I found the index there, and I have emailed the GRO Dublin to see if I can get a copy of the marriage cert. I have also rang the Old St Mary's Church, in Clonmel and left a message. (from the marriage cert, I'll get the bride and grooms father's, plus the occupation of the groom)
Monica has been looking in TNA for me, but so far, nothing doing!
George Charles (brother to Elizabeth) in 1901 was a Company Segeant Major in the RFA, and he was actually at the base...i wonder if his attestation records still exist, and whether it would have details of his father's rank etc.
Monica has raised a good question...
Bridget McMinn was possibly found in Woolwich with her son George, and another boy Philip, also listed as her son. (RG11 Piece: 743 Folio: 113 Page: 39) Monica suggested that Philip (as he appears to have been registered Alexander Philip in Gravesend) could possibly be a son of one of her daughter's. Perhaps of the elusive Caroline?
I am still trying to ascertain: when they (and who) came to England, who was Caroline, and where was she prior to 1901, and the biggest question of all who was Alexander McMinn? (Eventually, I'd like to be able to trace him, if we could only find out a few details on him!)
Finally, I cannot understand this Cleary/McGrath...are there any possible scenarios that they could have been the same woman?
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Hello all,
what a great photo!
Also a good summary- can I just ask who is Catherine McMinn - sponsor to Emily Jane-? Is it Caroline?
good luck and keep us posted - if I have a flash o f inspiration :o :o :o I'll post but in the meantime wanted to establish my link for notification ;)
Kath
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- can I just ask who is Catherine McMinn - sponsor to Emily Jane-? Is it Caroline?
Kath
I am not sure who Catherine McMinn is...this is the first time I have seen a Catherine McMinn pop up in realtion to this family.
I got the marriage certificate for Emily Jane today. Date of Marriage: October 1885, Emily Jane McMinn aged 21 Spinster Address: 37 King Street: father: Alexander McMinn - Occupation of father: Segeant Major, Royal Artillery (she married a William Foster)
I am also in contact now with St Peter & St Paul's church, where all these children got baptised. I have asked that records be checked for more McMinn baptisms (if any). I have also asked if any light could be shed on the McGrath/Cleary mystery. Just another point that the lady made, was that these records held by the parish are all in latin.
Lastly, with regard to these baptisms...Isabell interests me...as she shows up as an informant on the baptism of Emily Jane, and also for the fact that written on own baptism record, is possbly ADULT....
The theory that is playing in my mind is this...Alexander & Bridget were married in a protestant church/civil marriage. Could Isobel have been born, and not baptised until she was a lot older (she was baptised only 3 months after Matilda McMinn) in 1857. Could Isobel then be our Caroline? (either Isobel Caroline, or Caroline Isobel, but Caroline dropped as not Rc name?)
Any thoughts?
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Not sure at all here- I would have thought that they would have had children baptised young- as they had the others. These are just my musings.
They married in a church linked with Scotland (from memory) and Isobel has Scottish links.
In our time now, baptism in a Christian church is recognised for a Catholic marriage so there is no cause to be 'baptised again'.
Re the names - as neither Isobel or Caroline seem like Catholic names not sure re adopting one or the other would make a difference but being married to someone who has two names but was always known by his middle name- families do that sort of thing ::)
Sorry to ask this 'cos I've forgotten- I know that one Army query was unsuccessful but is there a possibility with Royal Artillery records?
cheers
Kath
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By the way- who were the witnesses to Emily Jane's wedding- anyone we know? ;)
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Okay, regarding Isobel, I'll wait to see what the parish church comes up with.
There could have been an issue regarding religion, they definately got married in a Protestant Church (on the IGI it was listed as Scott's Church, St Mary's, Clonmel.) The reason this must be fact, was that Roman Catholic marriages were not registered in a Civil record until 1864, but non-Catholic marriages were registered in a civil register from 1845.
There could have been a delay in the baptisms, perhaps Alexander didn't want them baptised RC? I'll know a it more once they come back to me regarding all my questions! Isobel seems to be a scottish name? Where does Caroline come from...
Royal Artillery records are proving tougher than we first thought, as none are turning up with rank as Sergeant Major.
I am still waiting for an answer from the Irish GRO, regarding getting a copy of that marriage cert, because that will give an approximate age of Alexander, and maybe pin things down a bit.
As for the witnesses...George Patrick is one (very clear) the second is definately Mary Ann, and I think Horton (i'll scan it later, and see if you agree) This could be a linking factor, because who was witness at Elizabeth's wedding, (in Woolwich as well but three years later) but a Rose Horton.
Lots and Lots of coincidences with this family...
When I've got a bit more time, I might hunt around for an Isobel mcMinn...see if she came to England.
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Thanks Marty.
I did have a quick scout for Isobel and variants but as McMinn also throws up various spellings I was unsuccesful - if she's there I'm sure someone will find her!
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Hi All
More movement...good to see :)
Just a couple of comments/thoughts at this stage:
1. There is an Isabel McMinn showing in Regimental Birth Index for the RA in 1849. No other info on the entry.
2. If the GRO is being slow ::), you could try writing/calling the Registry Office in Clonmel:
Tipperary Sth Civil Registration Office. Community Care Centre, Western Road, Clonmel, Co. Tipperary, 9.30 - 4.00 Mon-Fri, tel. no. 052-77204/5
3. Need to follow up on that Horton link for the witnesses to see what it may throw up!
::) Another 3 hours yesterday at the TNA (you know why Marty!) and trawled though another set of films (only after I tried 3 machines which were broken and wasted a lot of time :-\). I'm going to post later what exactly I have looked at at the TNA, so you have a record on file as such for any future searches. What is becoming clear is that Alexander Snr. is hiding well in the records at the TNA and one thing that would really help for another big line of search at the TNA is the Muster Rolls for which you need the specific Regiment of the RA to be able to search these films.
Monica
Added: I've just double checked on FindMyPast re the Regismental Birth Register and there are some reference to the birth, what they mean I have no idea. Can't see them on FreeBmd, maybe on the full index or perhaps an overseas birth?:
GRO Regimental Birth Indices Supplement (1761-1924) McMahon - McMurray - Isabella McMinn RA Vol. 24 Pg. 120
Googling this register shows:
If you can locate a birth of a child in the index, you can apply for a copy of a certificate via the General Register Office
A birth certifiacte of a child should include his regiment, rank and number which will help you (or someone looking for you) to locate his service record at TNA, Kew (and we need every help we can :)).
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An Isabel...(please note...the baptism is ISABELL, not Isobel have I have previously posted) in 1849...this could fit...
they were married in 1846, Isabell could have been born abroad, and would make her 15, and better for being an informant at Emily's baptism.
The difference in spelling is in the origin of the name...as Isabell is latin in origin, and a scottish name, as is Caroline, latin and scottish.
I have just rung the Tipperary office, and they don't hold the pre 1864 certs, but she gave me a numberffffor the main GRO. Have just spoken to the main GRO, and I am ordering that cert today! :) woohoo! Only costs me €4.00 if I have the vol. & page number. Not bad :)
I was going to pm you Monica to see how you're getting on, but 3 hours at TNA says it all. Have you tried looking for anything on the Royal Hibernian (that should give you at least another 4 hours)
I did have a little look for a Rose Horton in Woolowich before, but couldn't find anything really that fit.
Woolwich definatley seems to be a place that connects them all...so once my Visa has zero'd back again (in a couple of days) I'll be ordering a few more certs :)
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Phew, just got back from school run...miserable out there :-\
I wonder if this could be 'the' Rose Horton's marriage:
Marriages 3rd Qrt 1887 Rose Harriett Horton in Woolwich Vol. 1d Pg.1561
Males names: BASSETT, Harry Ernest and MILLS, Frederick Joshua . Other bride: WELLBY, Grace Mary
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From 1891, this might be Rose under Bassett. Not going to help much at this stage as she shows as born in Plumstead if the right one:
Harry Bassett 32
Rose Bassett 24
Harry Bassett 2
RG12; Piece: 540; Folio 22; Page 38
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oooh, lovely, we've got another little hunt :)
That's assuming Rose horton was single when she stood for Elizabeth...
Would be good to find a Rose & Mary Ann Horton in the same house.
I am going back to my cleaning...but I shall be back on in full hunt gear after kids are in bed...
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From 1891, this might be Rose under Bassett. Not going to help much at this stage as she shows as born in Plumstead if the right one:
Harry Bassett 32
Rose Bassett 24
Harry Bassett 2
RG12; Piece: 540; Folio 22; Page 38
Plumstead was where Elizabeth was living I think in 1901...when Caroline was living wth her...
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Just following though on that Rose Horton, again, not sure if she is the right Rose Horton but just so we have her family details:
Class: RG11; Piece: 752; Folio: 110; Page: 3
Charles Horton 41, Labourer In Royal Arsenal
Harriet Horton 41
Rose H. Horton 14
Charles F. Horton 12
Louisa C. Horton 9
James Horton 29, brother, lab
George Tapsell 27
The family all seem to be relatively local to the area. No sign of a Mary Ann though on this census :-\
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Marty
Did Elizabeth and Emily Jane marry in RC Churches?
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I am pretty sure that Elizabeth was..."Parish Church", in the Parish of t Paul, Charlton
Emily Jane was married at "the parish church" in the Parish of Woolwich...
Am just googling that now...
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:-[ :-[ :-[ I should hang my head in shame being RC myself; read this:
Baptismal registers
The basic information provided in a baptismal register is the name of the child, the name of the father and the date of baptism. The mother’s name will usually be given as will a specific location. The occupation of the father and the date of birth of the child may also be provided. Roman Catholic registers will normally give the names of the sponsors of the child.
The Catholic baptism records for the diocese of Down and Connor, and to some extent the diocese of Dromore, contain valuable annotaions to baptismal records, which often give details of the marriage of the indvidual concerned. Given the high levels of Irish emigration at this time, or indeed the movements of the population internally within Ireland, these annotations often refer to a marriage which took place in another country, or county within Ireland. Such records are an invaluable source for tracing Catholic ancestors. Researchers can maximise the research benefits of these records by using the Foundation's online pay-to-view baptisms and marriages search facility.
www.ancestryireland.com/index.php?id=1055
A couple of years ago I was trying to get a copy of my baptism certificate from the Church in Mexico City where I was baptised. I spoke to the Parish Priest who proceed to recount full details of my life: date of confirmation, full details of my marriage in the UK etc. Spooked was I :o
Might be worth asking the nice lady at St Peter and Pauls if they hold that sort of information ::)
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Scratch that...it was Church of England for Elizabeth
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:'(
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And this is Emily Jane's location
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;) Might still be worthwhile asking St P & P the question in the off-chance anything made its way back ::)
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This is the part of the witnesses...what thinkest thou?
I've included the profession of the fella, coz I couldn't quite make out the second word?
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Monica...thanks for your posts :o
The lady was very helpful, but I don't think it's actually her that checkes the records, she mentioned something about a "sacristan" (sorry if I've got that madly wrong)...and she was telling me that one lady had waited four months for him to confirm something, and he had said it wasn't there! It was in the end!
I've sent a detailed email, lets just hope that gets answered. It may mean I'll have to go down there myself, and see what's what...but we'll see
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When dealing with Church records at source, it is the land that time forgot unfortunately!
From the cert, occupation looks like plumber and glazier to me.
Just realised, the male witness was a George Patrick, had him down as a Horton too. A bit faint on the Horton, can't think at this point what else it could be though.
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That other link you gave me, deals mainly with Northern Ireland...have just gone through their databases...they have very few of Southern Ireland, and those they have, the dates are a bit off to when we are looking at.
I haven't ruled out yet that service record that you saw in TNA. The kids could either have been fibbed to, or they all fibbed...who knows...
I still haven't managed anyone who can really help with the Royal Artillery side of things. On Emily's MC, she says he was a Sergeant Major, but on her birth cert, yes, he was a sergenat major, but he was a pensioner. He could well have been dead when she got married.
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Alexander Snr. certainly deceased by 1886 when son Alexander John married in Glasgow.
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Look, for now, I am going to apply for the MC. This should give Alexander's age (and Bridget Cleary's) and his occupation. I am still waiting of that death cert for the Alexander in Woolwich, was it 1878?
Once I have those, if I need to, I'll have a look at what more I need to order.
I am going to give this McMinn a rest now, because, amazingly, I have had contact from some Canadians on the Hilsden side of my family...and am in email contact, and a cousin of my father, who I have never met, she is seriously ill, and battling luekemia, has written to me, today saying she would be very happy to help...so I need to do a bit of catch up there too.
I'll pm you :)
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Famous last words..."I'm going to give it a rest!" HA!
Another little golden nugget has just come through my door!
Want to know what it is? :P :o
Added:
Okay, was just scanning the death cert :) Yup, the death cert of Alexander McMinn ;D Died: 19th December 1878, at 4 Catherine Square at the age of 71 years, Occupation: Staff Sergeant Major Pensioner RA.
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2 things, first one... Monica, does the address ring any bells of where he died? And, 2ndly, something very odd about this fella's occupation! Because he must be the one you found at TNA, surely?
Lastly...here's a peek at the informant :)
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George Patrick comes to mind from that poss. 1881 census entry me thinks ;)
I can't believe it comes together like that.... :o
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Incredible, isn't it? what do you make of Elizabeth's address? I can't quite get it all.
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Is this the address we had for possible Elizabeth in 1881 b. Woolwich?
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George Patrick comes to mind from that poss. 1881 census entry me thinks
Yes, George Patrick & his family are living at 4 Catherine Square, Woolwich in the 1881 census.
Andy
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And a Stern family living at 5 Cambridge Lodge Villas in 1881 with a couple of servants which would fit with Elizabeth likely to have been working there in 1878 - RG11; Piece: 313; Folio: 5; Page: 7
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Here's Catherine Patrick in 1871 Class: RG10; Piece: 1017; Folio: 78; Page: 20
She's at an army base with 2 kids, husband not there...and sadly, no McMinn's.
The possible Elizabeth in 1881 was RG11; Piece: 1732; Folio: 76; Page: 42 Walthamstowe, Essex
The above address is in Hackney...but what is the whole address...I can't quite get the street name.
Hiya Andy...isn't it great when obscure pieces of puzzle start to fit together!
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Going by the previous page in 1881, address looks like Mare Street.
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Okay...
Have just looked up the Stern family in 1871, they were living in Bethnal green, and no Elizabeth McMinn.
So would it be safe to say, that Elizabeth possibly came over between 1871 & 1881. Perhaps she left her job with the Sterns to be with her dying father...under her name as the informant, does it not say "in attendance" wouldn't that mean to say she was there when he died?
He died of chronic bronchitus by the way :-\
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I can't quite spell the words I am shouting but 'Whooooooooo' - that is such good news and a step forward.
'In attendance' does mean she was present at the death- I feel sure.
:D :D :D
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Lack of knowledge on English certs. on my part :P, I assume Alexander's DC does not show wife's name like Scottish certs. do?
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No - death certificates are very limited - name, cause and informant essentially.
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Pity :-\ If we do have the right death for wife Bridget in 1893 Woolwich, it won't let us confirm much unless we are lucky with the name of the informant then.
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I'd say that's the case and fingers crossed!
Just going back over this (my mind isn't what it was ::)) - just a couple of points which may be totally irrelevant:
I think that the Horton witness is Mary Jane rather than Mary Ann?
Matilda Heath was living in Hackney wasn't she?
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Yes, I did find a Matilda Heath in Hackney as a servant.
Guys...something just dawned on me...
we now have a link, between Emily Jane (mother Bridget McGrath) & Elizabeth (mother Bridget Cleary).
Emily Jane married: witness George Patrick. George Patrick living in 4 Catherine Square, Woolwich; Alexander dies 4 Catherine Sqare, Eliza is informant, and in attendance. So Alexander is definately the same man, and father to all kids.
I was talking today to the lady in my local post office (font of information!)
She said, in those days, the mother rarely went to the baptism. It would either be the father, or a member of the family. In this case, since Alexander was a protestant, it wouldn't have been him. Therefor, it could have been Bridget's mother/sister etc, and confusion could have arisen (albeit 3 times) but it is a possibility, no?
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the link sounds so positive!
I do feel that I am out here but there is a Mary Jane Horton 1881 RG11; Piece: 713; Folio: 81; Page: 3 in Deptford - near to Woolwich, I think. She is born Chart Sutton Kent.
1871 RG10; Piece: 939; Folio: 35; Page: 6 living in Maidstone area with a sister Rose. She is not however the same Rose as Rose H although she is botrn around same time. I can't see her in 1881!
Sorry- pressed wrong key- have found her still at home as Rosanah Horton - if they are the same family I think they are on the peripherary here and may be best to ignore!
Am off now- lunch and then a class. I'm sure there will be all sorts of developments when I return!
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If it is our Bridget in 1893, then she must be around in 1891! Unless she went back to Ireland for a while..but why would she come back to die in England, especially if all her kids were married/and or left home.
Have looked for Phillip McMinn as well (remember him from the 1881 census: RG11; Piece: 743; Folio: 113; Page: 39)
Don't remember seeing him signed up in the Royal Hibernian...yet can't find him anywhere either.
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I do feel as though I am from the Ministry of Useless Information -George Patrick was born Clonmel and Catherine his wife in Downpatrick and they too are living in Deptford in 1891.
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ah, but all these bits of info could link up in the end!
Clonmel, Woolwich/Deptford...they are all connections of some sort.
George Patrick is such a funny name...a perfect mixture of English and Irish, which so sums up this thread.
Just waiting on my rice to cook, casserole smelling very good...kids are playing some sort of game in their bedroom...(well she is, he just crawls around after her grabbing at everything...and her patience! )...I'll have a good old poke around tonight.
Just thought of something else...
If that service record in TNA is for "our" Alexander...which now fits date wise anyway...he was abroad in Gibralter..for nine years, right?...and retired in 1850...then the kids started coming...so the only thing that doesn't fit, is the rank. Right?
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Hi all,
Just to add a little local knowledge (re Mary Horton). Woolwich and Plumstead are next to each other (and share a post code) - and Deptford is not too far away. If you travel along the Thames, east to west, you would go from Plumstead, through Woolwich, Charlton, Greenwich then Deptford.
Dimps
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The issue of the rank worries me Marty re the records at the TNA for the retiring 1850 Alexander :-\
Who else has verified the rank of Staff Sergeant Major? - We have:
1864 - Emily Jane born in Clonmel to Alexander SSM- retired, residing at the RA Barracks, Clonmel
1869 - George Charles born in Clonmel - would include father's details and address
1874 - marriage of Matilda in Woolwich. You haven't viewed it but I'd put money on father showing as we have
1885 - marriage of Emily Jane - father Alexander SSM retired
1886 - marriage of Alexander John in Glasgow - father Alexander SSM retired, also shows as deceased, mother Bridget shows as still alive
1886 - marriage of Elizabeth- father Alexander SSM
If the family lived at the Barracks in Clonmel (from that 1864 BC), would be hard for father Alexander to have talked up his job in a small community with a heavy military presence also, by implication, from the info we have, it would mean that Alexander had come out of retirement and back into the army after 1850 and risen to a much higher rank in the process :-\
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True...
My initial objection when I first read your post, was ah, but they were all on MC's, in England...but it's on the BC as well...and you're right...I don't know...
He was a pensioner in 1864...so we would be looking for records before then anyway. But being a pensioner, the army must have paid him that until his death...and then, would they have continued to give his wife a pension?
Still, we have his approx birth now, and his death...birth 1807, death 1878...
Does anyone have access to Scotland's people...to look up his birth?
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Dimps, that knowledge is good and handy! From what I understand there were a lot of Irish in this area...so it wouldn't be a long stretch to think that people were connected. It would be more likely if you were coming over from Ireland to live in the UK to go and stay with people that you knew.
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I looked at SP before, the only possibilities show slightly later (searching 1802-10) anywhere in Scotland with a wilcards (m*cm?n*):
1809 - THOMAS MCMINNa & JEAN CAMPBELL in Rerrick, KIRKCUDBRIGHT
1810 - DAVID MCMIN in Twynholm, KIRKCUDBRIGHT
1810 - JOHN MCMINN & IRVING in Borgue, KIRKCUDBRIGHT
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hmm. strange. Mind you, I don't know that he was born in Scotland...
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Remember that in Scotland not all births were registered (it cost money ::)). If Scottish, Alexander's family may also have belonged to a breakaway group etc. The OPRs are only for the established Church of Scotland (Presbyterian). Also, the other major factor is that registers have not all survived the test of time, many have been lost or destroyed over the years. Just because we can't find his birth/christening details, other siblings may show...if we knew the names of parents to be able to search by!
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There's another weird entry at TNA...
It says the date of volunteering was 1854, but the date of the document, I think, is 1835... - never mind! It's for the Royal Navy!
That other TNA doc that you looked up, MOnica...can you remember any of the info on it?
You know what, I don't think I'm gonna find anything more on this mysterious Alexander McMinn :(
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This is what I have already looked up at the TNA:
1. W0 97/ 1248 - covering the period 1760 -1854. This is where the retiring Alexander shows in 1850. These records have been indexed on line, you then have to view the films at the TNA.
2. W0 97/ 1336 - covering the period 1855 - 1872. These are original documents that have to been gone through in a box (records sorted alphabetically)
Now, apart from the 1850 Alexander in No.1, there were no other showing. Always the possibility that his records may have been misfiled (I haven't searche the 'misfiled box(es) or you could take the search out to 1878 when he died (although I would think this other Alexander may have been picked up by the researcher you hired to find the Alexander, husband of Alice, whose records would likely have been in the next series from the ones I looked at.
3. I also searched under WO 116/ 131-36 which are the Pension Admission Books for the Royal Artillery and for pensions awarded on grounds of disability. The films I looked at covered 1857 -64...before I ran out of time!
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Okay...was there an option to search pre-1857? for WO116 / 131-36?
If Alexander was born in 1807, he would have signed up perhaps say when he was 22...that would bring him to 1829...20 years say in the army...1849...
What I don't get, which has just dawned on me, is how they were still living in the RA Barracks in Clonmel, if he was a pensioner. (Birth record of Emily Jane.)
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He signed up in Sheffield in 1828, so he had around 22 years service. You can search the WO 16 series up or down the dates I searched, just ran out of time to go earlier than I did. I did eight years with a good couple of hundred names per year to go individually though. I left the TNA with these 8)
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jeez, thats a lot of records!
Okay...so there may still be another Alexander McMinn out there hiding in some dark corner :)
I can't wait for the MC to come through now...hopefully it will be quicker than the English GRO for me...
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Yep, the MC could answer a lot of questions although given the period, not sure how much MCs contained in 1846 ?
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name of bride & groom ages (hopefully) and not written full age :( names of fathers...occupations I think that's was what the Irish GRO said anyway.
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It would be nice to see a Regiment in the RA for Alexander but maybe that's a Santa's wish list item ;D
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Interesting link here...
http://www.tiger2.f2s.com/FamilyHistory/military/army_richard_hulley.shtml
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Have given in a bit, and have ordered MC for Matilda McMinn in Woolwich in 1874, and birth cert for Alexander Philip McMinn in 1876 in Gravesend.
We;ll see what light that sheds. :)
Until then, am going to give this a rest a bit, and go back to my other branches, which need some attention :)
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I agree, probably the way to go now - fingers crossed with what comes back ::)
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Just another dot joined, in the puzzle.
Guess who was informant no.1 on Elizabeth McMinn's bptism records?
George Patrick. Would he then have been her godfather?
Things tying up nicely now :)
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Ahem... rest.... others need attention ;)
Do you mean sponsor? I don't think it would be an informant at a baptism?
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Hi
According to the 1881 census of 4 Catherine Square, George Patrick was born in 1841 so seems a bit young to be sponsor, could he have a father of the same name? I'll have a look at earlier censuses when I get a chance.
Andy
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I was just thinking the same myself Andy but couldn't quite remember Elizabeth's year of birth (shame on me) and knew that when I looked the other day there is another George Patrick in 1881.
He is born Dublin 1820 and is a shoemaker.
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The shoemaker may well be a red herring and is best forgotten for the time being.
However, having confirmed that I was right in my mind with an 1855 birth for Elizabeth, George could have been old enough I suppose- around 14 yrs of age to be a godparent.- who knows.
Somewhere on here we have found George's wife in 1871 - just found who I believe is George!
I'm posting it - just because I like the entry. ::)
1871 RG10; Piece: 1020; Folio: 23; Page: 39
School of Musketry, Hythe
added: and as noted earlier George is born Clonmel.
George Patrick married 30 yrs Private Soldier 2nd Battalion 3rd Regiment b Ireland
now why can't anything else be that specific :)
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Sorry Kath... ...I should be getting the MC next week anyway Will be back on it then.
But...yes, Informant sponsor....not being RC, I just put informant, but the box was for Informant/Sponsor
So we are saying that this is the same George Patrick then...
I might have a look see and see if I can find a baptism for George Patrick in Clonmel then.
Great find Kath...and yes, wouldn't it be wonderful if everything was so clear!
You know what though, I have been thinking about this whole scenario, and I think we are lucky (well I am!) to have found out the information that we have. The early 1850's were just after the Famine, and there was huge emmigration from Ireland to England. So to find such a complete picture as we have so far in really incredible.
And I owe so much to all you guys, so let me say another
THANKYOU!
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Marty- you can tell we all just love it don't we :)
I know you'll keep us posted - enjoy the week with those gorgeous children :D
Kath
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Humph!
Got the MC today. I will scan it later, as there are a few bits that seem to be unclear...but, pretty much useless for what I wanted it for!!!
Date: 02.06.1846 / Alexander McMinn / Full age >:( / Bachelor / Gunner & Driver RA / Residence: Clonmel / Father: Alexander McMinn / Occupation of father: Mason (?)
Bridget Clarey / what looks like 18 / Spinster / Residence: Clonmel / Father: James Clarey / Occupation: Cattle dealer
Married in the Scots Church. Clonmel, (Presbyterian Church) "in ((arrow up) by licence) ????
Witnesses: Francis ?illey & James Smith
My worse case scenario, Alexander is at full age: BUT his occupation is a GUNNER. And those papers, did he not retire 2 years later? There is no way that in two years he would have been promoted to Sgt Major...I am sure!
So...any thing further anyone can offer? Where do I go from here?
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Hello Marty - nice to hear from you! How disappointing though :(
Maybe there are 2 Alexanders and at least though you know that this must be the one you want.
I think you said you had also ordered the marriage certificate of Matilda and the birth of Alexander Philip so I suppose when they arrive, all the info can be collated (again) and compared.
good luck and cheers
Kath
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Okay...have scanned the MC.
Kath, it appears that Alexander McMinn doesn't seem to be that unusual a name, but I think there was only one at the time in Clonmel.
Below, find the age...(please can someone confirm the age of bridget) and the "by licence" can anyone confirm the word after the "by licence" ?
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Hi Daisy Loo
"in Ireland"? I think
Andy
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hmm, okay...wouldn't have thought that...but could be I suppose...
I have a couple more bits to help me read...and Andy, I reckon that those TNA docs that you spotted are the right ones...what do you think?
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hi daisy loo, it seems your thread has been put "on the ferry" and sent to the ireland general board :) six pages of the thread has just magically appeared ;)
tony
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Fresh eyes is just what we need Tony ;) Ferry trip a bit bumpy...but here we are ;D
Monica
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Hi Terry & Monica :)
Not that I have anything against the Ireland board (and might even get more help!) but why the heck was it moved? It covers Ireland Scotland and England...
Surely the place for it was the Common room????
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Hi Daisy Loo
It does look like its the same person as in the NA. What puzzles me is the rank, if he was only a gunner then where does the Saegent Major come from? I can understand someone exagerating a rank some years later but not a son who is in the RA.
If a Scottish family follow the traditional naming pattern (first son after fathers father) then its possible to have several cousins, all about the same age, with the same name and from the same area (as I know unfortunately from my own research) Its also common for relatives in military families to join the same regiment, in this case the RA, and it looks like Clonmel was a major base so it wouldn't be unusual for them to all have a Clonmel connection (similar to Aldershot today)
I'm also puzzled about Caroline, Bridget McGrath and Elizabeths middle name Frances, as to where they fit in. I've been following the topic but I might have a look back over them today and refresh my memory.
Bye for now
Andy
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Daisy Loo
Bridget's age I think does show as 18, as we expected born c. 1828 and matching those late census entries in England. That rank in 1846 for Alexander does confuse matters but what's new ;)
I would say we need to bridge the gap. We have Alexander McMinn and Bridget Cleary in 1846 with Alexander's rank given. The next official document from Ireland would be George Charles' birth in Clonmel in 1869, the last child we think and mother confirmed as CLEARY. The Emily Jane birth in 1864 has always had the issue of mother Bridget showing as McGrath.
What do you think?!
Monica
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Okay...
I have been re-reading the thread too. It has got a bit confusing. Emily's MC and Alexander's DC I think closed a lot of holes and gaps...in that I believe that the father is one and the same. Does that make sense? There were too many connections...ie, the rank (fishy or not!), the George Patrick etc.
You said there was a regimental birth, Monica, of Isabella, and I think that one might be worth getting...because I do think, Isabell was baptised later than all the others...I checked with my mother in law today, and the "Sponsor" can be anyone who has been confirmed...which means I think from the age of about 11 or 12. This would fit.
yes, McGrath does throw a spanner in the works...but I'm leaving that slide for the moment...
So, If Isabella was born in 1849, Caroline could still be out there, and other's...
Elizabeth's middle name Frances is a bit odd, hasn't turned up anywhere YET!
Andy, the other confusing bit, is that on the birth record of Emily, the address is down as the Clonmel Barracks, but Alexander is retired, a pensioner...why would he still be living there? Could he have re-joined?
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Here's my worry :)
What puzzles me is ... if he retired around 1850- why where his children in the Royal Hibernian School years later? I have had another quick look and it was primarily for orphans or serving overseas and were almost destitute. Perhaps he did rejoin?
He would also be getting on a bit in age but was perhaps 'confined to barracks'. I wonder what the retirement age was? I can go along with a 'mature soldier' marrying a young woman that's no problem. Although he would have been over 60 for George's birth and older again for young Philip.
Perhaps those certificates will shed a bit of light.
I have just reread these posts (the ones that show whenh you are replying) and can't see anything about Alexander's death certificate although I think it has been discussed. Did that show a rank?
goodnight all
Kath
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Kath, the rank on Alexander's death cert was Staff Sgt Major...but the informant was Elizabeth, and wouldn't she have been the one to say what his occupation was? It was the same rank as on her own MC, and he was dead by then, but that wasn't on her MC either.
I have ordered the Regimental birth cert for Isabella in 1849...I am convinced she is the same Isabella, and I am praying that this might shed some more light.
I still haven't heard from St Peter's and St Pauls, and I am thinking that a visit there may be in the near future!
I am a bit lost now, and I don't really know where to go on from here...
I think I just have to wait for the new certs, and perhaps look then at what I need to find out. Perhaps then, If I begin a new thread, starting from a new vantage point, giving the info I have...might get some more eyes.
I would dearly love to get hold of some whizz regarding the dealings of the RA!
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Perhaps it is just a time to wait a while- as you say where to now!
You would think that Elizabeth should know but if he was retired before his children were born- perhaps there was some way he could live the 'lie' (I hesitate to say that of someone we know and love so well ::))
He would have been receiving a pension etc but I suppose we are looking at the situation from modern perspective.
You must be exhausted!
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Not exhausted no! Fed up! Feel like we take steps forward, then back...how could I be exhausted when I have had so much help :)
I had yet another email today from another Canadian, another branch of my Hilsden tree, so the timing is perfect :)
Not liking the Common Room at the moment :( Looks like every second post is being shipped out!
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Further confirmation of rank and providing definite proof of same family came from that 1886 Scottish marriage cert for son/brother Alexander John where father Alexander showed as Staff Sergeant Major at the RA and mother Bridget Cleary still alive...the joy of Scottish certificates :)
Monica
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so near and yet so far.. why can't it just come together!! :( :'(
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Just a small correction Monica...he was SGT MAJOR on the Scots cert, not Staff...
And yes, I do agree, that it's odd his son would have maintained the "lie"... however, we do know he was a pensioner by 1864 (Emily's civil birth reg). Agh....
I was just having a rummage around the Irish board...to see if I could find any detailed history on the RA in Clonmel.
I think I am going to walk calmly away from this one...for now anyway....will miss you guys tho :'(
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The certificates will arrive soon and you'll be back ;D
The St Peter and St Paul will visit (not in person we hope)
see you soon :-*
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We said this last week and here we are again ;D
You know what I am going to do....I think I'll go back to Kew next week and photocopy that 1850 Alexander McMinn document. Reading off microfilm is never great and the writing wasn't fantastic to start with. Maybe there is something there that didn't jump out first time when I was just getting the hang of everything!
What certs have you ordered and are still outstanding?
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Monica, I never cancelled that order from TNA...so I am still waiting for that to arrive in the post!
I have ordered the MC of Matilda in 1874, the birth cert of Philip in 1876, and lastly the Reg Birth cert of Isabella.
I'm probably just one of those people that are determined to shove square pegs in round holes ;D ;D ;D...my son is better at doing it than me hehehe :)
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That sounds like plenty to be getting on with ;)
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Well, quicker than I thought...some good news, some great news, and some just more confusing news :)
I see you are both offline, and I'm very disappointed! Coz, Monica, you were spot on :)
Yes, I got the BC of Alexander Philip:
Born on the 16th December 1875, in the Union Workhouse, Gravesend :( , No Father Caroline McMinn, Domestic Servant - Informant: Caroline McMinn, mother, Union Workhouse 14 Chapel Lane, Gravesend (as on cert), registered 4th May 1876
I'll scan in some bits of the BC later, as there is a, maybe irrelevant, maybe not, possible question.
This then confirms, that Caroline was definately in England by 1874. It was 1881 that we found Philip with his grandmother, right? Also confirming then, that it was the right Bridget. I wonder how she ended up in Gravesend. Will check that address in Gravesend, in 1881.
The second cert I got today was the MC of Matilda McMinn. She did marry Henry Heath, and he was a Sergeant in the RA, Matilda was listed as 18, but I think she was younger. Her father was down as Alexander McMinn, but get this, his occupation? wait for it...CLERK! There were three witnesses...2 of them unclear...but the 3rd...Eliza McMinn. Will scan bits of that later too, to get clarification.
Which now confirms, that Elizabeth McMinn was also in England from 1874 at least.
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Great news Marty!
Now you have everyone tied together. Maybe Matilda was telling the truth- perhaps after he retired, the way he managed to stay in Clonmel was to be a civilian clerk ???
Is that it now for certificates? Oh no- reading back it is Isabella's bc.
Looking forward to next instalment. :D
Kath
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Wow, all the chickens are coming in ;D
Great result with that BC for Alexander Philip (I think in my last life I must be a witch - white one mind you 8)). I am also really pleased to get a real reference to the elusive Caroline who has long eluded us!
As for father Alexander....he's still causing trouble ::)
Monica
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Now that we have connected a lot of dots, am adding all the info to my tree on Ancestry...like Caroline, and Alexander Philip...and now we also know that the Bridget is the right one too etc...
Maybe the "hints" will come up with something :-\
Oh yes, Monica, definately a white one! Is this day a special ::) :P one for you?
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Another little thing...
1891 Caroline McMinn : RG12; Piece: 197; Folio 55; Page 32 Now I know she has a load of other kids...can't read the occupation...but where's the husband? Could it be our Caroline? If not, how do I rule her out?
(I knew you had found this somewhere Monica...came across it tonight...)
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1891 Caroline McMinn : RG12; Piece: 197; Folio 55; Page 32 Now I know she has a load of other kids...can't read the occupation...but where's the husband? Could it be our Caroline? If not, how do I rule her out?
This is not your Caroline. In the 1901 census when your Caroline is at Elizabeths this Caroline Mcminn is with her family at RG13 Piece 294 Folio 125 Page 84 On Ancestry its transcribed as MILEN
Andy
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oh rats! She's haunting me this Caroline...especially after discovering that she gave birth to her first child (and maybe only) in a workhouse :(
Maybe she is the lady that went down to Eastbourne then...I wonder what happened to Philip...have looked for him everywhere too, and cannot find any sign of him.
Might ask for a Scavenger hunt on these two.
Thanks for checking that out Andy :)
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I wonder if he followed family tradition and went into the army. It's sad about Caroline and the workhouse - really brings you down to earth.
Are all the major players now accounted for in England. I had been thinking, and I think you may have done too, that there had been some 'toing and froing' between Ireland and England but the workhouse makes me think that this would not have been a habit.
Have a good day!
More snow and ice when we got up but it is sunny now here so fingers crossed.
Kath
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Morning all :) I'm full of cold and this weather is not helping :(
No idea on this, just raising it in case anybody may have an answer. Scottish Poor relief records and applications can provide a wealth of additional personal information. Some areas are phenomenal in the way they have maintained their records over the years, other much less so (including those that decided to destroy them all on purpose :().
Anybody know what the situation re records is for Gravesend Poorhouse for the period we are looking at for the birth of Alexander Philip?
Monica
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Have just blown a bit of money looking for caroline on the 1911 census...nothing really substantial showed up.
I don't think there was any too'ing and fro'ing...especially if both Alexander & Bridget came over, as we now know that they did.
I think we have all of them, apart from Isabella & Caroline, we have Matilda, George, Alexander, Elizabeth & Emily Jane.
I do think there is a strong possibility that there may be more children, but that will have to wait until I get more info out of the parish church in Clonmel.
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I did check that out Monica, I don't know how many records they have, but they aren't online, they are held at Kent County Services, in Maidstone, so that will be one of the places that I'll be visiting. I think they hold birth records for the workhouses, and Gravesend was definatley listed.
Yes, I'm hoping that more will come out.
I still haven't got the TNA records, which has surprised me, as I have certs that I ordered after already...should I chase them, or do they normally take a long time?
I think chasing after Bridget & Alexander is another story altogether, and one I have to decide when and if. The siblings are all pretty much done, apart from Isabella & Caroline...
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This might help: www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?Gravesend/Gravesend.shtml
There is a contact at the bottom regarding Records, is this the one you saw:
* Centre for Kentish Studies, Sessions House, County Hall, Maidstone, Kent, ME14 1XQ. Holdings include: Guardians' minutes (1835-1930); Births (1848-1913); Deaths (1871-1914); Creed registers (1924-39); Children's home superintendent's journal (1899-1916); etc.
I would put a call into TNA and double check your request has not been mislaid, seems a long time now.
Monica
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Yes, that's it. I'll ring them in a while.
Have just done a search for Alexander or a Philip b. 1876 Gravesend, on the 1911 census, still nothing shows up
:-\
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I got the TNA records today, and Monica, I am convinced we have the right ones.
I have posted 4 parts of the document in the new board Artefacts or something, and I am sure there, on the "final description" is Clonmel Bks....but am not 100%. I posted them there to get independant opinions from people who don't know the story, and so don't know what they looking for :)
thing is, being a new board, it isn't getting half the traffic the common room gets :(
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??? Wasn't aware of this board...I'll have a look now.
Monica
Clonmel Barracks to me ;) let's see what everyone else thinks :) Do you see what I mean about the writing, off microfilm with colours reversed is even harder to read in places.
It would be interesting to see whether any of the references on Part 4 actually mean anything in respect of Regiment. It also looks like on his conduct sheet, his years in Gibraltar may have been at least in the early 1840s....when he kept on being told off and reprimanded ;D
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Hi Marty,
as Monica says - I can see he was a bit of a naughty boy but thankfully his conduct improved.
2) refers to his ailments - rheumatic related since 1841 in Gibraltar. Had something in hips and legs ever since.
3) The medical officer at Woolwich, 8 March 1850
"After a careful examination I am of the opinion that Alexander McMinn is unfit for service ........ to be permanently disqualified for Military duty but that he is able to contribute something towards his livelihood".
4) G59981 Increased to 1/7 1/2 (One shilling and seven and a half pence) 15/11/70
H 17680 Inc.A44 * not entitled to increase 7 enclosures returned arrests ....... ret to information afforded to govt .... Clonmel Bks during Fenian riots 13.10.76
what do you think? I have not been able to decipher some bits of it but that's what it looks like!
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Good eyes Kath 8)
Does that mean that at least Alexander was in Clonmel in 1876 ? We know a number of the girls were over in London by this time. I was curious about what the Fenian Riots were - http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/STUDENTS/LoveBrad/fenian.htm
How does someone retired in 1850 due to ill health after c. 22 years in service end up (Staff) sergeant major I wonder some years later... ???
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still thinking about that - the other posts have been moved to Armed Forces
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Oh, I'm pleased they have been moved :) If anyone can make out the finer details, it's these guys!
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Yes I hope so! I think those numbers must be references for his pension.
It is difficult to follow/believe his history - often in trouble/ prison and what seems like a Court Martial - is that when they are dismissed entirely? Then he seems to be quite a poorly man with long established illness.
Next he continues to live in the Barracks and have several children there.
Then somehow is tied up with the Fenian Riots and the government ??? ??? ???
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That's part of what has got us hooked ;D
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Looks exciting...sorry it's taken so long for me to get on line tonight...my little boy's first birthday today, and he's sick as a dog :( He's in his Dad's arms now, while I take a break, and have a look to see what people come up with :)
Fenian riots?? Hadn't got that...how interesting...
So maybe not military duty, but some other duties in the barracks? What posts have been moved? Am going over to the posts now :)
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Yes I hope so! I think those numbers must be references for his pension.
It is difficult to follow/believe his history - often in trouble/ prison and what seems like a Court Martial - is that when they are dismissed entirely? Then he seems to be quite a poorly man with long established illness.
Next he continues to live in the Barracks and have several children there.
Then somehow is tied up with the Fenian Riots and the government ??? ??? ???
A Court Martial is a trial by the army...not necessarily dismissed...but some kind of punishment...he was demoted at one point as well, and imprisoned twice! I think one of the times, he was absent without leave?
He was discharged from Woolwich in 1850, then ends up in Clonmel...BUT he was already married to Bridget BEFORE he was discharged! It looks like his time in Gibraltar was 9 years anyway...perhaps earlier on in his service...
Well, I am quite depressed, as my posts are being shifted about here there and everywhere, and I don't understand why...
I'm sure I would have got more help had I left it all in the Common Room! >:( Sorry...my enjoyment on this find is coloured by bad mood :(
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Happy Birthday to your little one!
Let's just hope that the posts are in a favourable place where someone can help!
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Marty
To cheer you up :-*, I've put on my white witch hat on again 8) Which document did we have Alexander's father as Alexander, a mason by trade.....
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I think you are probably busy with the little one....
I've gone back and double-checked, it was Alexander's 1846 marriage cert that showed father as Alexander, a mason. I have checked the 1841 Scottish census so often that I think I know all the Kirkcudbright McMinns of by heart now! Nothing obvious showed there but as we all know, with transcripts for indexes there are always potential misses....Just thought to check the 1851 census and this is the entry that I have found:
Alex McMin 65, mason, b. Borgue Twynholm, Kirkcudbt
Mary McMin 66, b. Kirkmabreck, Kirkcudbt
Isabella McMin 25, daughter, b. Borgue, Kirkcudbt
James McMin 13, grandson, b. Gatehouse, Kirkcudbt
Address: Knockmuck, Borgue, Kirkcudbright
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Didn't publish my other post...hope this one doesn't disappear as well!
I'm slow....did you see the address somewhere then? Is this his father????
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Don't know if he is 'the' father...but so close to what we have that he has to be a very strong (only ::)) contender ;D Cannot see this family on the 1841 census, just trying to check whether there is any chance that this Alexander made it past the start of official registration in Scotland in 1855...
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would he be old enough to be Alexander's father? My mind and eyes are failing trying to make sense of those extracts!
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ah Kath, you're lovely...hopefully Scrimnet will be able to shed some light. the only thing that was really critical was the Clonmel...because that is what connects him, and possibly indicates that these ARE the right records.
Alexander was born in 1807...would have made his father 21, at the time of his birth...so yes...old enough...Alexander could have been the oldest.
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Ok, I am now in the land of guesswork and speculation which is not the best :-\
I cannot see Alexander and wife Mary in 1861, nor can I see a death for them post 1855 at this stage. On the hopeful side, Gadget here on RC has the MIs for Borgue so you could ask her to have a look to see whether she can find something on them for deaths perhaps.
Whilst searching for Mary's death, there was another one close that I have had a look at the image. :o This Mary McMinn was single, died in 1869 aged 83. I saw her entry earlier in the 1861 showing as born in Twynholm. Parents Alexander McMinn, a mason, mother (blank) Sproat m.s.
Pure speculation part from me at this stage, I would mark her down as possible 'aunt' to our Alexander at this time. If our Alexander was first born to Alexander, mason, and wife Mary, then likely he would have been named after paternal grandfather. Perhaps also the male McMinns were a line of masons by trade. Supporting this (new!) theory, there is a John McMinn showing in 1851:
John McMinn 74, mason, b. Twynholm, Kirkcudbt
Irvine McMinn 67, wife, b. Kirkcudbright, Kirkcudbright
Margret McMinn 35, daughter, b. Borgue, Kirkcudbright
Address: Swin Drum, Borgue, Kirkcudbright
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Hi
In 1841 census it looks like they have been transcribed as MILLIN
Low Borgue, Kirkcudbrightshire
Alexander Millin 50 Mason
Mary 50
Janet 20
Isabella 15
James 3
Andy
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Phew! Well done Andy :) McMillin/McMullen are variant forms of McMinn so that would make sense.
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Well, his papers (have just checked them) say he was born in the parish of Kirkudbright near the town of Kirkudbright, in the county of Galloway.
So these are definate possibilities! Well done Andy...
Isabella seems to be a family name as well then!
Added: Ps, can you guys give me the census ref's please? I can't blo.. find them!
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Remember with the Scottish census entries, there are no number refs. For the 1851 census if you for example put it Alex McMin (as indexed) in Borgue, you will see the entry I found. The same for the 1841 entry I am sure as Andy will have transcribed as it shows.
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Marty, Borgue and Twynholm are bang next door to the Parish of Kirkcudbright in Kirkcudbrightshire ;)
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Hi
The 1841 census is as follows
Parish number 858 (Borgue)
Enumeration District 3
Page 4
I found it oriiginally by searching for Alex*, a Mason in kirkcudbrightshire (there were only a handful) and looked for any name remotely similar to McMinn
Andy
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I had forgotten :-[ thanks...have found the 1851, taking ages to load...
I wonder now, Monica, if there are any other records that I can obtain from the TNA regarding this guy?
Thanks Andy...
:)
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What about pension records- I had a quick look at National Archives site to see if there was any reference to A44 (think that was mentioned on the extract) very naive of me - of course there wasn't ;D
I was also wondering if Alex may have received a pension for service and a pension for his rheumatism- it sounds pretty bad and he was struck with it in Gibraltar!
On either NA site or an army site, I am sure it said there are records of pensions.
That's my last thought for the night- work tomorrow!!
Kath
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Kath
I am hoping that the Army crew on the board can see something we can't from the information Marty has now posted (or kindly had moved ::)) to the Armed forces board. We have his discharge papers as at 1850. It's where to look next that I personally have no idea now at the TNA. Any records that there may be have not been indexed individually by name on line, so we would need to know specifically now where to look :-\
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I'm hoping that too - they are such experts there!
This is the what I was looking at:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=23&j=1
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Night Kath, and thanks :)
Yes, there should be pension records, and I am sure he would have got a pension, as he was discharged due to his poor hips and thighs, not voluntarily...it did say he was a pensioner on one of his daughters birth reg's.
No movement on the Armed Forces Board tonight...don't know why it was moved...anyone can have a go at reading surely!
But hopefully, yes, someone with the know, will tell me what to look for in this record I have, to progress further...
Thought you ladies would enjoy knowing that Our Alex...was tall dark and handsome ;D ;D
5'10" (tall for those days I believe), black brown hair, grey eyes, and sallow complexion :) sounds dishy hehehehe
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Having seen your Nordic blonde genes in your photos, where did it all get mixed up then :P
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He does sound rather dashing!
I think that those references and that he was receiving 1s 7 1/2d and hope that someone will confirm /correct it.
goodnight - definitely ;D
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Night Kath :)
On a more serious note ::) re the pension records, I did look at this in the last couple of weeks. Unless I'm mis-reading it, I think the pension records are organised by regiment. Chicken and egg, we need to know which regiment of the RA he was in to have any chance of locating this info (similarly I think with the Muster Rolls). I wonder if anyone on the Armed Forces board has access to this book:
If you have any information on place of service, you may be able to identify the regiment stationed there at a particular time from J M Kitzmiller, In Search of the 'Forlorn Hope': a Comprehensive Guide to Locating British Regiments and their Records (Salt Lake City, 1988). For the Royal Artillery, there is a similar guide: M E S Laws, Battery Records of the Royal Artillery, 1716-1877 (Woolwich, 1952-1970)
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It says this: "If you know the county or country in which your soldier was living between 1842 and 1862 for England and Scotland, or between 1842 and 1882 for Ireland and abroad, you may be able to find the regiment fairly easily. Between these dates there are records of payment of pensions, arranged by the district pay offices, which name the regiment served in (WO 22 , and PMG 8 for payments in Hanover). For nearly 9,000 pensioners in India, Canada and South Africa between 1772 and 1899, taken from WO 120/35 , WO 120/69 and WO 120/70 , see N K Crowder, British Army Pensioners Abroad, 1772-1899 (Baltimore, 1995)."
I would say that from at least 1855, til 1869, he was living in Clonmel Ireland, as that was where all his children were.
I think I'm going to call it a night now...gonna have a busy day tomorrow....Nordic blonde???? hehehe...I wish! Dirsty blonde more like...and yes...rumour has it I was the milkmans daughter, as my brother and sister were both dark :P
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You and me Marty...must have been the same milkman ;D
Re the Kircudbright family, not sure how we will verify but I can see bits and pieces on them from general google searches. I have the mother Mary as a Milroy (her birth shows also as Milroy in Kirkmabreck in 1783) and potentially the grandmother as a Margaret Sproat....
But that is for another day!
Night :)
Hope your son wakes up much better tomorrow.
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Hello All,
After the main thread (now locked), I'd given the MCMINNs a miss - haven't previously posted on this thread.
But got caught up with deciphering handwriting (I like such threads) on the MCMINN thread on the Armed Forces board ...
So I'm back again ...
If I've understood correctly, "our" Alexander was born ca 1807 and, according to his marriage cert, his father was Alexander McMINN a Mason.
Monica has found a few Kirkcudbrightshire McMINN Masons including an Alexander McMINN, a Mason b ca 1786, who could possibly be the father of "our" Alexander.
So it seems that there might be a line of McMINN masons.
*1851 census John McMINN, a Mason in Borgue, 74 (b ca 1777 in Twynholm), with wife Irvine
*1851 census - Alexander McMIN, a Mason in Borgue, 65 (b ca 1786 in Twynholm), with wife Mary
And Andy found him in 1841 as MILLIN, rounded down age of 50.
Monica also found an 1869 death;
*Mary MCMINN, age 83 (b ca 1786), with parents Alexander MCMINN & --- SPROAT.
*Alexander MCMINN m Margaret SPROAT, 20 Jul 1775, Borgue Kirkcudbrightshire Scotland.
*James McMINN, an Ag Lab, wife Elizabeth, parents Alexander McMINN & Margaret SPROAT, age 65 (b ca 1791), died in Borgue in 1858
He's transcribed as McMEN in 1841.
There's also:
*William McMEN, rounded down age 50, a Mason in Borgue in 1841
He turns up as William McMIN, age 60 (b ca 1791 in Twynholm), a Mason in Borgue in 1851.
William's wife is Margaret, and one of their sons - Samuel 19 - is also a Mason.
I'm still looking.
JAP
PS: I submitted a 'report to moderator' asking that this thread - dealing with England, Ireland, and Scotland as it does - could be returned to the Common Room.
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Good Morning all :)
Nice to see you again JAP :)
Not going to have much time to devote in the next couple of days...so apologies now, if I don't say thanks if anyone finds anything!
Little girl was sick last night, and again this morning :(...got me hands full I 'ave :)
Cannot believe we are on the way to find family for Alexander McMinn now :)... would there be any way to prove these connections?
I have posted in another forum entirely regarding the RA questions...hopefully I might get some answers back from them as well :)
Have a wonderful day all, and hopefully might get on later in eve, ionce kiddies in bed :)
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Hi JAP and Marty
Great that you have re-discovered the McMinn mystery again :)
I agree with your conclusions on the line of masons from Twynholm and Borgue.
Alexander McMinn, mason = Margaret Sproat, son
Alexander McMinn, mason born c. 1786 = Mary Milroy...potential parents to our Alexander
I found Mary Milroy McMinn's DC last night. She died in 1859, husband's name not shown but daughter Isabella reported the death. Her birth entry shows in 1783 in Kirkmabreck, with parents as per her death entry.
There are some children's births for Alexander and Mary (Milroy) showing on the OPRs but they are later, in the 1820s. Can't see a marriage entry for them as yet though, which would help to at least confirm they were married before the likely birth of Alexander c. 1807/8.
Monica
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Hi...kiddies alseep...housework can wait... :P
Monica have you read the Armed Forces Post? Scrimnet & JAP reckon our Alex is a spy :P...
Not something I'll be rushing to tell my in-laws then! :-X
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Have just had a chat with OH
"Seems like my Alex could have been a spy"
"That's not surprising, they all were back then, sure, he was in the English Army"
"But he married an Irish woman, had kids and baptised them Catholic"
"Hmm, not unusual though, but he would have been hated in Clonmel...where was he living, in Barracks or something?"
Guess that does answer then, why as a pensioner he would have been living in Barracks with his family. :(
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So, he was a Rogue from Borgue ::) ....You have to admit, goes with the profile of the search for him, with so many twists and turns. Still don't get the leap to Sergeant Major though :-\
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aggggh...have to re-type this now! RC driving me crazy!
em, what did I say...oh yeah...could be a couple of options, or he was given this rank by promotion or as an empty title to cover his real position as spy, or his kids were ashamed of what he really was...
Gonna have a snooze now, while kids are in land of NOd.
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There was a gap though between his discharge and the rising of the Fenian movement and I can't see that he would be 'reinstated' to a higher rank so late in the day.
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It will be very interesting to see what the BC of Isabella shows (Regimental one). She was born in 1849, not in Ireland...I wonder where they were when she was born?
Alexander must have been in Clonmel though prior to being discharged from the Army, as he was married there, in 1846.
Amazing how after all this time spent on it, we are still intrigued by this man! I am going to spend some time digging around TNA, to see if I can find anything more.
Added: After another examination of his papers, he belonged to the 9th Battn. I have posted this on the other thread, because maybe now, I can look up muster records, or records that show the movement on this Battn?
I have also ordered to books through my library, which another RC found for me, regarding the History of Clonmel during the period we are interested in.
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Daisy Loo, Yes, waiting on tenterhooks for Isabella's bc.
Incidentally, I thought it was the Regiment that was needed to enable follow-up.
It is a tad confusing having discussions about similar matters taking place on two boards ... ::)
Just a reminder for anyone who wants to check it out that the Armed Forces board thread (moved there from the new Family History and Artefacts board) is at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,360433
I think that scrimnet and JAP - while initially using some rather unpleasant loaded words - probably came to the conclusion that Alexander was actually doing his duty, and probably behaving with integrity, as a person who had taken an oath of loyalty to the Crown. And Googling seems to indicate that the Roman Catholic church was not generally supportive of the Fenians.
Heywood, what date was his discharge? I thought 1850? And weren't the Fenian riots in 1848?
Daisy Loo, I'm a bit confused about what TNA/Army papers you have - do you have any apart from those posted on the Armed Forces board. If you do, could you perhaps just list them?
The rank of (Staff) Sergeant Major remains a huge puzzle.
Monica, your Kirkcudbrightshire line looks very likely but if only we could find some proof. (I notice we're still in exile on the Ireland board - moved there from the Common Room despite the fact that Alexander was born in Scotland; lived in various places including England, Gibraltar, Ireland; died in England - and his family had similarly mixed locations ...).
Did anyone ask Gadget about MIs? I seem to remember that someone said she had MIs for Twynholm? And what about MIs for Borgue?
Cheers,
JAP
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Morning JAP :)
I don't know what is needed....I am totally dumb when it comes to Army matters. What papers I have, I believe are his Discharge Papers...? It lists his character & conduct, a statement of his service, (not much info at all on that!) Medical Report, and lastly, a Final Discription, with the added notes.
JAP, no need for explanations as to what this man was, SPY, GRASS doesn't offend me! I can't see that he was too much a man of integrity if he was drunk all the time! Hehehe :) Look, it all adds to an interesting character...if my OH, who is as Irish as you can get (from the Gaeltach, Irish is his first language) can laugh when I told him, and offer sensible explanations, I think we've come along way from treading carefully around the issue of English/Irish.
The date of his discharge was 1850. But I don't think his date of discharge was so relevant...as when he was living in Clonmel, in the Barracks, he was already discharged, and a pensioner...ie, it looked like he was still "working" for the Army in some way or another. Fenian Riots in 1848...just by googling, about fenian, so many other dates come up, as far as the 1860's.
I have rodered two books to my library, on the history of Clonmel during this period, so hopefully I'll gain some kind of an insight there.
I haven't asked Gadget, not yet :)
Now, I'm off to ice a birthday cake :)
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Morning Jap,
I thought the riots were in 1860s.I know the Manchester Fenian incident (Manchester Martyrs) was 1867 and I thought that they were all linked.
However, that doesn't explain his remaining involvement with Clonmel - he was medicall unfit.
What an interesting puzzle!
heywood
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Morning Kath :)
It would make things a bit clearer if we knew exactly WHAT Fenian riots were being referred to, as from all the googling I've been doing, it seems there were many! It also appears that there was a jail in Clonmel, where some of the Fenian's were held. Would like to find out a bit more about the jail!
Alexander was imprisoned twice, once in 1840 for 16 days, and once in 1845 for 43 days. Just as a useless (or not) bit of info. Wonder how he met his wife. :o
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I wish he'd come back and just give us another few clues!
I daresay he met his wife whilst in Ireland as many of these soldiers did.
I also saw a reference to the jail in Clonmel so you would imagine that as he was there giving information that it was a bit of an active area.
It is confusing now with the two threads - I'll go and see what you have posted there now- notification just received ;)
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Regarding the records for the Royal Hibernian, for his sons...
I think if we find any more than what we already have from that website, we will be very lucky. I wrote to the guy who owns that site, and asked if there would be any more info...he said he thought it very unlikely. most of the records were destroyed. Unless there are notations or extra info on the records that he extracted. I have noted down the WO numbers, and I was going to have a look when I get to TNA.
It is a bit confusing having the two threads, but at least we are getting a bit of miltary help...I thought it best if we reserve the other thread just for Alexander and his service...
Added: (lol, sorry Kath, got you running backwards and forwards...sorry!)
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I cannot believe how lucky I have been with the ordereing of all these certs! Not one, not ONE, has come, and not been the one I needed.
Yes, I got that regimental birth today for Isabella in 1849.
She's ours :)
DOB: 9th March 1849 Place of Baptism: 15th April 1849 Parents: Alexander & Bridget McMinn Rank of Father: Gunner & Driver (The cert is headed: Royal Horse Artillery 9th Battallion)
I had a look on the English 1851 census, to see if they were around, but couldn't find them. I am starting to lean towards Scrimnet's take, that Alexander did perhaps sign up to the Militia, and went back to Ireland....perhaps he even signed up there.
A definate search at TNA anyway.
I am curious now, just how many children they really did have?
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Good news Marty - another bit chipped away.
It doesn't say where she was born? That could still be Ireland? Do you think? Or Woolwich prior to discharge?
Were Army births not registered in the normal way - not that this matters as you have the birth anyway ::)
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I don't know, it's odd...it doesn't say where she was born, only where she was baptised, over a month after birth. She was baptised in Woolwich, but you'd think that perhaps she was born abroad/at sea...otherwise if she was born either in England or Ireland, her birth would have been registered in the normal way.
That might be discovered, if I manage to find out any more regarding his movements as a soldier.
However, I'd say that pretty much wraps up the thread doesn't it? I know we're looking for Alexander's family, so maybe not.
Scriment has come up with some very good ideas for searches at the TNA...so we'll see :)
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You (we) have achieved so much! It's been so interesting.
Please keep up posted with any new revelations.
Love and good wishes
Kath
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I don't know, it's odd...it doesn't say where she was born, only where she was baptised, over a month after birth. She was baptised in Woolwich, but you'd think that perhaps she was born abroad/at sea...otherwise if she was born either in England or Ireland, her birth would have been registered in the normal way.
That might be discovered, if I manage to find out any more regarding his movements as a soldier.
Keep in mind that civil registration of births in Ireland only started in 1864.
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I don't know, it's odd...it doesn't say where she was born, only where she was baptised, over a month after birth. She was baptised in Woolwich, but you'd think that perhaps she was born abroad/at sea...otherwise if she was born either in England or Ireland, her birth would have been registered in the normal way.
That might be discovered, if I manage to find out any more regarding his movements as a soldier.
Keep in mind that civil registration of births in Ireland only started in 1864.
Hello :) Yes, but I have found baptisms for all (well, all we could find) seven of the other kids, born in Ireland, and baptised there, from 1855 onwards.
Alexander did serve in Gibraltar, so it is possible I suppose that she was born out there, isn't it?
Added: Even though it appears from this birth reg, that Isabella was baptised in Woolwich, she was baptised again, in 1857, in Clonmel :o Figure the mother must have been a staunch Roman Catholic!
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Regarding the 1849 record- you already have the baptismal record but mentioned trying to find a birth record which is why I mentioned Irish records. Of course it's entirely possible she was born somewhere besides England or Ireland.
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Hi Marty from 'nearly' Sunny Spain :)
I would have thought it unlikely that young Isabella born c. 1849 would have been baptised twice, more likely the first Isabella died and another daughter born c. 1857 was given this name and it is this second daughter's baptism that we are picking up in Clonmel perhaps?
Monica
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lol @ Monica....you just can't keep away!
Aghadowey... What arrived today, was what we found listed on the Regimental Births.., I thought it was going to give details of where she was born, but it relates more to her baptism in Woolwich.
The baptism record I have in Ireland, I had already...but (Monica, this is in answer to your point as well) there was a notation on the record, that said she was an adult...(I believe that means someone who has been confirmed)...and the date for this was 1857, only 3 months after her younger sister was baptised. In 1864, Isabella appears as the "Sponsor" on another baptism record, which, if she was born in 1857, this would have made her only 7 years old...but if her birth was 1849, shewould have been 17, and well able to be an informant.
Hope that all makes sense!
Monica, are you online for a while?
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Back now for a little bit...the children have tired me out today ;D
Does make sense now Marty, you've reminded me of some of the comments you posted when you first read/posted the christening details some weeks ago.
Monica
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Hi Daisy and all :)
Daisy has summoned me but I'd be grateful for a brief summary of what is required from my various Kirkcudbrightshire sources, please. I've read a few pages but there are 12 in all and tis late :-\
I noticed that there was mention of Kirkmabreck - I know that some of the records are missing for there.
Gadget
PS - I have MIs for all the KKD parishes :)
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Monica is not here, and JAP not online to ive summary of what they found, but details are on pg 9 &10, I think...there's a summary of JAP's and a few details of what Monica has found. There's no rush for this though Gadget :)
Alexander McMinn, b. abt 1807 in parish of Kirkudbright, in or near Kirkudbright town....father Alexander McMinn, Mason.
We're trying to find his family from this :-\
I have his marriage, he got married to an irish woman in Clonmel.
Edited.
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Gadget,
I suspect that any McMINN MIs (any spelling - and some are quite innovative!) - especially in Borgue or Twynholm - would be greatly appreciated.
JAP
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There are quite a few MIs for McMinn (variations) in those two parishes but only one Alexander so far. I think he might be too young to be Alexander (b.c. 1806)'s father. Here he is:
Borgue:
Alex McMinn d.Knockmuck 15 Aug 1852, aged 68
wife Mary Milroy d. 25 April 1859 aged 74
also descendants.
Looking through the whole set, there are a considerable number in many of the parishes and it will take a while to go through and sift out any relevant ones and then type them up.
I'll report back.
Gadget
Added - this is the family that Monica gave on the 1851 in reply #124
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Because of it's significance, here is the full list of McMinn's on the MI:
Alex McMinn d.Knockmuck 15 Aug 1852, aged 68
wife Mary Milroy d. 25 April 1859 aged 74
also descendants.
son John d. 27 March 1827 aged 14
daughter Mary d, 2 Oct 1836 aged 7
son William d. Kirkpatrick Durham 30 July 1849 aged 39
son James d Dublin 25 March 1895 aged 85
son Thomas d. London 15 August 1876 aged 56
daughter Janet d. Knockmuck 10 October 1877 aged 61
son Alex d. Knockmuck 15 March 1904 aged 78 - this Alex b.c. 1826
daughter Isabella d Knockmuck 6 Feb 1906 aged 84
grandson Alex Douglas d 17 Mar 1936 aged 84
Seems that it might be a different family :-\
Gadget
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Next to it:
John McMinn d 1 Jan 1864 aged 87
wife Irvine Conning d. Chapeltown Village 8 Dec 1851 aged 68
son John d. 19 April 1827 aged 13
daughter Marion d Viewfield 19 Jan 1884 aged 75
daughter Margaret d Gordon Villas Kirkcudbright 2 Jult 1894 aged 81
daughter Elizabeth d High Street Kirkcudbright 8 July 1897 aged 79
a distance from the other two:
James McMinn d Tongue Croft 23 April 1858 aged 75
Two children~
daughter Eliza d. 1829
son James d 1834
wife Eliz Paple d. Tongue Croft 8 April 1886 in her 88th year
Margaret McMinnd. Bishopton 8 July 1852 aged 51
In Senwick (grouped with Borgue)
John McMinn d 14 June 1761 aged 87
I can't do any more for a while - it's doing my eyes in. Will have another go this evening.
Daisy - what document did the b. Kirkcudbright or close by come from?
Gadget
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Gadget, thanks for doing this... :)
the document was his discharge papers...
"Born in the parish of Kirkudbright in or near the town of Kirkudbright in the count of Galloway"....he attested at the age of 21, in 1828. His age is confirmed on his death cert, where he dies at the age of 71, in 1878.
The discharge papers are the only thing that confirm where he was born, and what age he was, that I have. Of course, he could have been older...but think not, as he married in 1846 (at the age of 39), and between 1849-1869 he had at least 8 children that we know of. So by the time he had his last child he would have been 62! The other option was that he was born later, and was actually younger than everyone thought.
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Nothing in Twynholm or Kirkcudbright, Daisy, that links in :-\
Just wondering if he might have been the illegitimate son of the 'young' Alexander (aged about 16) before he married Mary. The problem is, how would we find out? And how did he get to Sheffield by 1828? OK, many of our Scottish ancestors went considerable distances but it would be interesting to find out what he was doing there.
Borgue, Twynholm and Rerrick all border on Kirkcudbright. There's also Dundrennan Abbey.
Gadget
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Nothing in Twynholm or Kirkcudbright, Daisy, that links in :-\
Just wondering if he might have been the illegitimate son of the 'young' Alexander (aged about 16) before he married Mary. The problem is, how would we find out? And how did he get to Sheffield by 1828? OK, many of our Scottish ancestors went considerable distances but it would be interesting to find out what he was doing there.
Borgue, Twynholm and Rerrick all border on Kirkcudbright. There's also Dundrennan Abbey.
Gadget
hmm...probably going to be questions that I'll never know the answers to!
Thanks for looking though Gadget...if I manage to turn up anything more specific (I am still looking for Attestation Papers, pension records etc), I might come back to you again. really appreciate you looking though. :) :-*
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Just another point, that may be totally irrelevant...
But on the Discharge Papers, when Alexander signs up in Sheffield, his occupation is down as "None", which would be rather unusual for a 21 year old surely? So could indicate he was lying about his age, and he was a lot younger than that. Just a though :-\
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Could be - have there been any searches for a later bpt.?
However, as his age at death is consistent, he was either telling the truth or living/dying a lie :-\
The McMinn name is very much centred on Dumfries and Galloway on the 1881 distribution map, with some in the neighbouring counties.
Are there any other documents at all that give a place of birth?
Gadget
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Just remembered this site:
http://www.old-kirkcudbright.net/
It has some interesting bits and pieces tucked away if you want to spend an hour or so having a read.
Gadget
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Could be - have there been any searches for a later bpt.?
However, as his age at death is consistent, he was either telling the truth or living/dying a lie :-\
The McMinn name is very much centred on Dumfries and Galloway on the 1881 distribution map, with some in the neighbouring counties.
Are there any other documents at all that give a place of birth?
Gadget
Living/Dying a lie wouldn't surprise me...his daughter Elizabeth, my great great Grandmother was the informant, and even his rank was suspect :(
I haven't personally looked for any later baptisms, I don't know if any of the others have or not.
I don't have any other documents as yet that give his place of birth. What other documents would there be?
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Not sure what documents - I've not read all the thread or the previous ones but I assume that you have him on some censuses in England.
I'll have a quick look for later bpts.
Gadget
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Unfortunatley, I don't have Alexander on one single census :( I believe he was in England pre-1851, then went back to Ireland...and he returned to England after 1871, but before 1881, he dies in 1878.
He's been a hard man to track down. To be honest, I am surprised we have found this much out about him, and delighted.
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I think a wider search of the Galloway area might be called for. If he thought he was born near Kirkcudbright, he could have remembered the area as a child rather than being actually baptised there. Tis difficult - we all have them and try all sorts of ways to find out but sometimes the records just aren't there :-\ I have a Robert Roberts b.c. 1822, who's father was John - but can I find him - I've been looking for 8 years and so have various cousins :(
It might be that there would be something in the Kirk Sessions minutes but these are not online yet and can only be viewed in Edinburgh, Dumfries or Kirkcudbright at the moment.
Sorry my lurgy seems to be coming back with a vengeance :(
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget.
Have a rest so, and take a nice hot toddy, snuggle up and relax...get rid of the lurgy! My 2 kids have had Gastric flu over the last few days...ah, the laundry!
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Just thought I would share another little discovery made by Dimps...
She has found Alexander McMinn's grave....he was buried in Woolwich (I have the grave number etc, and it's still there), and joining him there in 1893, was his wife, Bridget McMinn...
and....another person was buried there....a John Thomas Wilder, in 1864!!!!
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Wow, so we also had the right potential death for Bridget in 1893 Woolwich, that's great work Dimps :D
John Thomas Wilder :o, who he ?!!
Could they have shared a grave?
Added: this looks to be John's death: Deaths 2nd Qrt 1864 John Thomas Wilder at Greenwich, 1d/454
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I don't know about grave sharing...I just posted that very question in the common room! It'll probably be moved! Oh well done for finding the death of him.
It seems strange though...if the McMinn family came over after 1971...then how would they have agreed to be buried iwth this guy, who was already dead???
Monica, welcome back, I;ve missed you :)
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:) What a difference in a week since I left, positively balmy in London tonight!
Not sure if the Wilder name will necessarily mean anything Marty. Still of a mind of sharing a grave here! There is a John Wilder, aged 59, and John Jnr, 22, showing in Woolwich in 1861. John Snr a bookmaker, son a carter both born London/Kent. I can see John Jnr in 1881 boarding in Woolwich, an auctioneer's porter...so, maybe father's death in 1864?
Added: Yep, looks v. likely it is the same one. He shows as John T. Wilder in 1851 (HO107; Piece: 1589; Folio: 114; Page: 1)
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"There are Purchased Graves where the applicant purchases the Exclusive Right of Burial in this grave, effectively forming a private grave and giving the family of the deceased control of any future burials in that grave. The owner of the Right must give written permission before any burial can take place in a purchased grave. The Exclusive Right has a fixed term - usually 100 years after which time control of the grave is returned to the relevant authority.
Un-purchased Graves are also known as 'Common' or 'Public' graves. The relevant authority retains control of the burials in these graves. Burial Law used to require a 14 year interval between successive burials in one of these graves, (unless the deceased were from the same family), but this law has since been repealed.
1864-1878 = 14years
Stan " - Stanmapstone's answer in the Common room....seems to make sense. I guess a lot of these people wouldn't have afforded a private grave, I'm sure.
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Hello you two!
I think John snr is a bootmaker (not bookmaker). I would imagine that they just shared the grave - perhaps cheaper?
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You're right Kath, re John Wilder, he shows as a cordwainer in 1851 :)
How did Dimps find Alexander and Bridget's details I wonder? Clever girl!
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Perhaps she went to the office ;)
Or like we have probably all done at some time- tramped around :)
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Well, however you found it Dimps, I think you deserve a gold genealogy star :-*
I always get quite an emotional moment when we've searched good and hard for someone and finally there is a resting place for them. Who would have thought Marty many yonks ago when you first started on Elizabeth's origins that Alexander's gravestone would be found....
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and still there which is fantastic!
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she wrote to Greenwich Council...and they had the grave. Yes, I know, I would never have believed that we would have found out as much as we did, and with still potential for finding out more!
I owe it to you two as well you know...gold stars all round I think
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Just thought I'd share two things regarding this line!!!
I met a guy last weekend, who works in the National Archives in Dublin, he has given me his personal email, and has said he will try and help regarding two things - one, Alexander McMinn and the Clonmel Barracks; he seems to think that the Irish NA have records if the soldiers were discharged in Ireland, and copies were sent to England - he said he would also lookup anything regarding the Fenian riots.
two - He said he would also look and see if they hold anything on the Royal Hibernian School, he also commented that it was unusal that the sons went there, as father still alive.
The OTHER thing, is that I have been in contact with a grandson of Alice O'Hara, the wife of the wrong Alexander McMinn, and he has given me a contact of another man, named McMinn, who has been doing studies on his family name.
So, fingers crossed, I may yet find out more!
I have been re-reading all these posts, and has made me feel quite nostalgic!!!
Edited to add: If anyone can think of any questions to ask this NA guy....:) I know this thread is VERY old at this stage!! ::) ::)
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Hi Daisy,
as you know the McMinns are almost as close to our hearts as they are to yours ;)
What great news! Please keep us updated.
Kath
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As Kath has said, one of our favourite families ;)
Hopefully some new things may come to light!
Monica :)
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Blimey!!!!!
I am nearly CRYING!!!!! Having trawled all through the posts, wanting to give Alexander McMInn another go...printing out all the relevant Scottish posts...I decided to start a fresh thread on the Scottish board...as I went along there, I saw this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,446677.0.html
So thought I would have a quick look....
and here is what I found:
Inscription 142
In memory of Alexander McMinn, who died at Knockmuck, 15th August 1852, aged 66 years. Also Mary Milroy, his spouse, who died 25th April 1859, aged 74. John McMinn, their son, died 27th March 1827, aged 14. Mary their daughter, died 2nd Oct 1836, aged 7. William their son, died at Kirkpatrick Durham, 30th July 1849, aged 38. Jane Crosbie, wife of James McMinn, who died at Gatehouse, 14th Nov 1837, aged 27 years. Thomas McMinn, their son, died in London, 15th August 1876, aged 56 years. Janet their daughter, died at Knockmuck, 10th Oct’r 1877, aged 61 years. Alexander their son, died at Woolwich, 25th Dec’r 1878, aged 71 years. Peter, their son, died at Knockmuck, 15th March 1904, aged 78 years. James their son, who died in Dublin, 25th March 1895, aged 85 years. Isabella their daughter, who died at Knockmuck, 6th Feb’y 1906, aged 84 years. Alexander Douglas, grandson, who died 27th March 1936, aged 84 years.
and to top it off...a picture of the gravestone
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My goodness what a lot of information- that is fantastic :D :D :D
I've had a look myself just to enjoy the moment!
Looking back (I constantly need refreshing re our Alex) Gadget gave that site re old kirkudbright a while ago and there was also a query re Alex and the ages given. However, in this grave inscription, it would fit and of course it does say son ::)
That is brilliant and I nearly cried too ;D
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:):):)
Yes, Gadget gave the MI's, with just one small difference, the Alex she listed, was in fact Peter.... oh, I am dancing inside...really has opened up the world of the McMinn's now. Why oh why didn't I check out that wesbite at the time????
And don't worry Kath, I constantly have to refresh myself too...the only reason that I have come on it all again recently is that someone contacted me regarding the WRONG Alexander that I had at the beginning!
So we finally have a proper family for our dashing dark haired grey eyed rogue from Bogue!
Am now proudly inputting the info on my tree ;D ;D
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It was so meant to be Marty ;D
Which graveyard is it and I will have a look?
Monica
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;D ;D ;D
It's just great though isn't it.
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....it get's better ;). Can't see the wood for the trees (the Ancestry type ;D) Two main trees showing there for this line - we must have checked this when we were first looking around...where have these sprung up from I wonder!
Mother Mary Milroy showing as Margaret Mary Milroy.
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http://www.kirkyards.co.uk/borgue/borgue.asp?Inscription=mcMinn - no.142 :)
The two trees are new...and I am in touch with one of them, who has told me, she copied hers from the other! Have written to the "other", and am awaiting replies. I am also waiting for a reply from the Ian McMInn in Liverpool, who is researching the McMinn name...but you know what...who needs all them, when I have Rootschat???? You guys came up with this info from the beginning! So nice to be able to confirm it all though!
Oh Kath & Monica...so delighted you guys were online...I was fit to burst when I saw the gravestone. What a TRIP!!!!!
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I have a few queries on my "new" found family...would it be better now, to post them on the Scottish boards, d'you think, as a completely seperate thing?
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I would start a new thread if you :) This post focused on our young soldier Alex and his wife and children.
Alexander's mother, Mary Milroy (not sure where the Margaret comes in from the trees on Ancestry as she had a sister Margaret chr. 1800) shows with sisters on batch code C118732 on IGI - maybe the brothers on SP given it looks to be one of those girl only batches. You should be able to verify her parents names of Peter and Janet Muir from her DC.
Plenty of new stuff for you to get stuck into now!
Monica
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Yes, and I am so excited!
Okay...back to my new findings!
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:):):)
Yes, Gadget gave the MI's, with just one small difference, the Alex she listed, was in fact Peter.... oh, I am dancing inside...really has opened up the world of the McMinn's now. Why oh why didn't I check out that wesbite at the time????
And don't worry Kath, I constantly have to refresh myself too...the only reason that I have come on it all again recently is that someone contacted me regarding the WRONG Alexander that I had at the beginning!
So we finally have a proper family for our dashing dark haired grey eyed rogue from Bogue!
Am now proudly inputting the info on my tree ;D ;D
Just in case people think that I overlooked anything, see this message:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,453776.msg3155378.html#msg3155378
Daisy would not have found him, even if she had checked as the online site was only set up this year. The booklets have a whole chunk of the MI missing ::)
Gadget
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Hi to MonicaLesl & Gadget
Thanks for your response to the posting. Yes, I am the missing link who is descended from the "other" Alexander McMinn - a family we all love.
Marty has been kind enough to pass some info we did not have - but we are keen to learn about where our alexander met his wife who died from "the booze" after marrying her 2nd husband (of course fibs were told about her age!) or he would presumably have thought twice!!! poor Alice left with kids without a husband died of cirrh of liver and exhaustion. What a ghastly time she probably went through in the 1890's era poor woman. Since Clonmel now looks likely as where they met - our only other clues from the Military records held are Dublin and Cork. We hope s.k.s. will help to unravel this deepening by the year and minute saga of "how they are likely to have run across each other" when he was stationed in Eire.
One message for Gadget on reading 15 pages of the previous postings - brilliant stuff I must say - is "Please do you have a record for our William McMinn in KKD who was a police supt. (policeman) in the District and would be buried in Borgue area with presumably his wife Grace nee Clark (also nee McMyne) (Perhaps this lady was married before she wed him?). Any assistance might clear the mists which have shrouded this family link for such a long time. Knowing our Alexdr was a "naughty" boy in the Army - court martials etc. but left with a clear g/conduct record and was a Corporal Service No 2468 in the RA who died not long after his pension was paid and he retired/ ???completed his service. ???
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Hi Radhima
Welcome to Rootschat :)
Just to let you know that I've got your message and will try to find something for you in the next few days. I have a few pressing problems to sort out at the moment.
Regards
Gadget
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Hi there Gadget
Have just read your message and thank you for agreeing to have a "mooch" to try to unscramble this McMyne and Clark link to our *Alexander McMinn. Grace Clark on the marr cert in 1832 had our Alexander c. 1835 Kirkudbright - *He was, according to Daisy Loo s of William B c 1811 who marr Grace nee Clark ne McMyne. Hope that's enough info - if not, we shall be stumped out at present!!!
We know the family names carried on i.e. Isabella, Janet and David as well as William and know that a lot must be buried in Twynholm Rerrick Borgue KKd and perhaps elsewhere in the area.
Fingers and toes are crossed something comes up. Thanks a billion Gadget - 'cause we already have your detailed info on MI's from the posting requested by Daisy Loo.
In your own time, of course, as we have only been researching this line since 1981......... pause for breath - never thought we would get this far somehow.
Cheers
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Isanyone interested in the family tree of RSM McMinn after 1900 and up to the present day. I can give much of it (from my father) and some that is missing.
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i am not sure if something in this note helps or not
amongst 111 McMinn listed in peoples trees on Genes Reunited are
George CharlesMcMinn 1869 Clonmel, Tipperary, ... No Lesley
William McMinn 1868 Don'T Know, Tipperar... No Lesley
Alexander McMinn 1861 Tipperary, Scotland ... No Lesley
Alexander McMinn 1860 Tipperary Scotland ... No Stuart A
lexander McMinn 1860 Clonmel, Tipperary, ... No Jennifer
Alexander McMinn 1807 Tipperary, Ireland ... No Mary
re GR British Army Service Recordsmore details about £11 each after you join
Alexander McMinn 1798 no birth locationEighteenth Regiment Of (Light) Dragoons
Alexander McMinn 1807 Kircudbright GUNNER & DRIVER Royal Artillery
Alexander McMinn 1835 Burgh discharged Corporal Royal Artillery
Alexander McMinn 1860 Clonmel no rank
Alexander J. McMinn 1860 Clonmel no rank Royal Artillery Sergeant in 1891 census married living in Folkstone Mary wife aged 20, Katharine aged 1 . Matilda Adelaide 8 months. In 1901 Alexander john is living alone in New Monkland Lanarkshire as
Papermaker's Timekeeper Also Serving As Royal Reservist Sergeant 132nd Batt R F A, Also in 1901 Mary b maryhill lanarkshire now has Elizabeth b 1892, Alexander John b1894, Wm b 1896, and Albert b 1900
Alexander McMinn 1869 Cropmichael no rank no Regiment given
George Alexander McMinn 1881 Woolwich 1881 Royal Artillery
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I believe that Alexander J McMinn, late of 132 Bty RA was my great grandfather. My grandmother was born in Maryhill Barracks where Alexander was a Sergeant Major. MY grandmother married David (Pop) Bole and they moved to Airdrie in Lanarkshire, where my father (David), Alexander (Sandy), Jimmy and Mary were born. Pop was an undertaker in the town.
Mary - served in the WRENS (at Bletchley Park), married and passed on, but has one surviving daughter. She was a McMinn-McGrath before her marriage from the days when you could change your name with ease
Jimmy - joined the RAF and served with with a joint UK/Can squadron (one of the Bison Squadrons) before being commissioned and later joining the SAAF where he was sadly killed at the end of the war. Survived by his son David (my cousin) who became a leading Neuro-surgeon
Sandy - still going strong, has a son and daughter, still lives in Airdrie
David (my dad) now 87 and still going strong (although he falls of his bicycle occasionally). Mum still going at 89 and I have 2 sisters, all three of us rapidly approaching the age where we should consider taking life a little easier.
My father said last week that the McMinn side of the family all came from Clonmel, my great great grandfather being a site manager for one of the big wealthy estates in the area. I will endeavour to ask him how much more he has found out.
Of course we are all Bole's now but the Scottish side of the family is lamentably small now.
We still have and still use, one of the woollen covers that the large rolls of paper used to be wrapped in, an hand-me-down from my great grandfather.