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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Heron Hiker on Friday 23 January 09 22:47 GMT (UK)
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My great grandfather was a member of the Ancient Order of Druids in the 1920s.
I would be particularly interested to know where his Lodges were based, when he joined and left them, the Offices he held and what his two special medals were for. Does anyone know who I can contact to get this information?
I believe he had these letters after his name: PA, FSC, PERA, Arch Druid.
I have his medals:
March 1921 Goodfellow Lodge 452, award for 'services rendered'
1922 and 1924 Benevolent Festival medals
March 1926 Girdler Lodge 679, award for 'esteem'
(no date) Chapter 29, ribbon only
(no date) 2 x medal FSC (Fellow of the Supreme Chapter)
(no date) Grand Lodge of England jewel - bronze on silk ribbon collarette edged with gold braid
Many thanks.
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There's this link:
http://www.aod-uk.org.uk/home.htm
and if you just google Ancient Order of Druids, a whole bunch of stuff comes up.
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Thank you for this reply.
AOD-UK is a modern umbrella organisation. Its website does not have any information about AOD in the 1920s and their named contacts have not replied to my e-mails.
I have spent hours on Google. The most promising thing I found was a RootsChat post from January 2008 in which 'Wittenbury' said he had copies of old directories of Lodge names and mentioned Grand Lodge records.
That is why I joined RootsChat!
I am looking for a person who has information.
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If you do a search on Rootschat and put in the word "druid", all the posts come up. (I just did, and there were too many to know which one you were referring to.)
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Could this be what you were looking for?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,279830.0.html
Ewan
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Hi Heron Hiker
I may be able to help with this.
I have a lodge list for the AOD for 1923,
Lodge 452 is listed as "Whitechapel Lodge£, meeting at Earl of Warwick, Whitechapel Rd E1. Does this make sense relating to whwre your ancestor lived? I have goodfellow lodge listed as 462 meeting at Grosvenor arms, Stockwell.
The PA means he had held the position of the "chairman" of his lodge. The PERA (past excellent royal arch druid) means he was also the chairman of the Chapter (No 23) which is side order in the AOD.
I am not too sure about the other jewels but if you have pictures then I may be able to help.
The AOD survives and there are a small number of lodges left mainly in the south and east of england.
Best Wishes
Barry
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Thanks for your reply Barry.
The back of one of the medals is engraved Goodfellow Lodge 452. Stockwell would make a lot of sense because my great grandfather lived and worked near St James Park.
What about 679 Girdler Lodge and Chapter 29?
I have taken photos of the medals but they are quite large. I will try to attach them...
David, Heron Hiker.
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Oops, it's a 6.
Uploading the pictures was easy.
I haven't seen them this big or this clear before.
I thought it was a 5.
David, Heron Hiker.
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Hi Dave
I am struggling a bit with Girdler Lodge as the nearest Lodge list I have is 1923 and it must have been formed after that. I assume the name comes from either a Girdlers Rd (W14 0PS?) or Girdlers Public House or even the Girdlers (beltmakers) Guild (EC2)
They are nice images. Any chance of showing me the front of the medal for Goodfellow Lodge and the FSC jewels?
Chapter 29 would have been linked to one of the lodges we have mentioned. It is a side order and one which everyone did not join. If your ancestor was a member of the supreme chapter (FSC) he was probably reasonable influential within the order.
I will ask about in the AOD and see if I can find anymore.
Cheers
Barry
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Barry,
Girdler might be near Herne Bay in Kent, or possibly in Ireland.
He moved from London to Kent for health reasons.
There is a family rumour of an Ireland connection but we don't know what.
I attach the Goodfellow front
and the whole set.
David.
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This is a close up of the Grand Lodge of England jewel.
It looks very much like the Freemasons coat of Arms
but it is illustrated and labelled as an AOD jewel
in Victoria Solt Dennis' book
Discovering Friendly & Fraternal Societies.
David.
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Hi David
Yes the collar is that worn by a past arch druid i.e. a past chairman of the lodge. The coat of arms is that adopted by the AOD - a druid on one side and an ancient briton on the other. It also looks a lot like the Victoria Cross shape, I don't know whether that was intentional?
I have amanged to track down Chapter 29. In the earlu 20's it is recorded as meeting at Stanley Restaurant, Lavender Hill, SW11.
It is possible that the lodge was in Kent. I am still working on that one.
Regards
Barry
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It's not a Victoria Cross. The Victoria Cross has square ends.
The indented ends make it a Maltese Cross.
On the Girdler medal,
is the orange letter a C
or is it a P to make the letters for Past Arch?
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Ahh I see now....
The letter is a stylised P - hence making it a past-arch jewel
B
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I have a picture of my Great-grandfather's funeral procession in 1928.
We have identified the chapel in Herne Bay, Kent where he was living at the time.
It is a very low resolution picture but I wonder if there are any other clues.
David.
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Hi Dave
Nice picture. The AOD has its own funeral servcie which goes alongside the normal one.
Good news on the Lodge identification front. One of the AOD members in Margate has a lodge list form 1926, which records:
The Girdler (Lightship) Lodge No 679 was meeting at the Pier Hotel, Herne Bay on Fridays.
At that time Chapter 29 met at the Balham Hotel Balham SW12
Hope this helps
Regards
Barry
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Barry,
Sorry for the delay. Thank you VERY much for the information.
I wonder if there might be records giving dates of membership of Goodfellow Lodge, Chapter 29 and Girdler Lodge? Do the two plain FSC medals refer just to Chapter 29 - or might there be more?
Having grown up with my Grandmother claiming that her father was a Druid, I was very excited by your claim that AOD still survives. What does it do? I guess I've got some more research to do - this time to satisfy my present-day curiosity.
David.
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Hi Dave
Unfortunatley all records of these Lodges/Chapters have now gone. The Order lost most of its records in the war. What is left is all over the place. You may find some records of individual lodges in local history collections.
What is most interesting to me is to collect bits of stories about Lodges I dont know. This is why your photo and the jewels are so interesting.
Yes the Order still survives but there are only about 11 lodges left in the Country although there are many more in Europe, USA, Australia etc. These belong to a sister order the United Ancient Order of Druids, a friendly society which broke away from the AOD in the 1830's.
The AOD are a bit like the masons or the RAOB in that they meet in Lodges and have ceremonies. They mainly have a social and charitable basis to them. The AOD can be described as the oldest of all the "modern" druid orders but like masonry there is no religious or political character to them.
The chapter jewels you show are Supreme Royal Arch medals. These show your ancester was both a member of his local chapter but also the national chapter. The chapter was side order to the normal AOD lodges (called the primitive lodge).
Try having a look at
http://www.aod-uk.org.uk/
I hope this helps. Where abouts are you in the Country?
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As I learn more it is starting to get complicated.
If I have been paying attention:
Goodfellow Lodge in Stockwell is 'normal' AOD'
Chapter 29 in Balham is a sort of higher level, side-order
and the Supreme Royal Arch medals were for a national Chapter,
giving him three separate memberships.
Are the Supreme Royal Arch medals you mention the coloured stars with the letters FSC?
I think you said the Grand Lodge of England was for being a former Lodge chairman
(presumably of Goodfellow Lodge because the collarette is quite worn but he died just a couple of years after receiving his Past Arch jewel from Girdler Lodge).
When I completed my Scout Leader training I became a member of the 1st Gilwell Park Scout Group. It doesn't really exist, it is just a title. I wonder if Grand Lodge of England was like this, or was it something important?
David.
Bishop's Stortford, Herts.
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Hi Dave
Yes you reading of the relationship of the lodges is about right apart from the final bit
Goodfellow Lodge in Stockwell is indeed a 'normal' lodge which in the AOD is called a primitive lodge. A number of lodges in a geographic area were under the custody of Grand Lodges (there were four in London based on geography). A bit like scouts groups being grouped by county say. Above this was the national organisation to which all the grand lodges reported. This was called Imperial Grand Lodge which at that time had its HQ in Theobald's Rd in London WC1 (which was lost in the war). This is the equivalent of the Scout HQ and would have the control of all the lodges in the world. No new lodge could be formed without a dispensation being issued from IGL who also control things like fees, the ritual used etc. There was also a Board of General Purpose which looked after the charitable side of the order.
Chapter 29 in Balham is indeed a side order and at one time membership was quite selectiv. It would have drawn members from a few lodges. It would report to the national Chapter (called the supreme chapter) which met at Anderton's Hotel, Fleet St. This was still subservient to the Imperial Grand Lodge
He would indeed have three probably four separate memberships.
The Supreme Royal Arch medals are the ones with the coloured stars with the letters FSC?
The two lodge medals (Goodfellow and Girdler were for being a former Lodge chairman. It seems he went through the Chair in both lodges - not unusual.
Hope this helps
Barry
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Hi Barry, if you are still able to reply on this thread,
I was fascinated to read all the above, as my grandfather was chairman of Croydon Lodge, No. 458, in 1922. He was also landlord of the Oddfellows Arms, at 30 Waddon New Road, Croydon at that time, which may have been connected with his membership of the AOD. I attach 4 photos of item I recently received which had been kept by my father, but never shown to me until now, several years after my father died. I also have his Grand Lodge 'cross' jewel.
Would the letters NA signify 'Noble Arch', was that the title of the 'Chairman' of the time? Finally, is the period of only 3 months on the medal at all unusual? I assumed one would hold the office for a year, usually?
I wonder if there are any records of Lodge 458 for 1922 which might reveal anything else about my grandfather, T. W. Granger, and whether that might be one of the surviving Lodges today?
Chris.
North Staffs.
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Hi Chris
Unfortunately not much left of the Croyden Lodge now. The only remaining Lodge close to Croyden is in Dartford.
Had a look in the 1923 Lodge lists and Cryden Lodge is listed as meeting at Alhambra Hotel, West Croydon. Meeting on a Thurday. Can't tell you much more about it I am afraid.
Yes Noble Arch was the chairman of the lodge and he was most often in that position from 3 to 6 months, sometimes he might occupy it for a year. He was only in it for three months as the Lodge met every week unlike say Masonic Lodges who always met monthly.
If I can help in any other way please let me know. The closest Lodge that still meets the nearest to you (and me) is in Bedworth. There were some Druids lodges in Stoke and in Leek but these seemed to have switched to become United Ancient Order of Druids Lodges
Barry
Lichfield
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Thanks for that reply, Barry.
I don't think there is any more to be found out - it is interesting, though, as there was nothing ever mentioned in our family while my father was alive. I don't think he ever joined, either, as there were no relics of his own.
Regards,
Chris
North Staffs
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Hi Chris
Unfortunately not much left of the Croyden Lodge now. The only remaining Lodge close to Croyden is in Dartford.
Had a look in the 1923 Lodge lists and Cryden Lodge is listed as meeting at Alhambra Hotel, West Croydon. Meeting on a Thurday. Can't tell you much more about it I am afraid.
Yes Noble Arch was the chairman of the lodge and he was most often in that position from 3 to 6 months, sometimes he might occupy it for a year. He was only in it for three months as the Lodge met every week unlike say Masonic Lodges who always met monthly.
If I can help in any other way please let me know. The closest Lodge that still meets the nearest to you (and me) is in Bedworth. There were some Druids lodges in Stoke and in Leek but these seemed to have switched to become United Ancient Order of Druids Lodges
Barry
Lichfield
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My father was a druid in lodge 642 and chapter 29, does anyone know if these are still going today? I think he was a druid in 1957 his name was Horace Knight or fred to his friends
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Hello All.
I've just discovered some AOD medals dated 1925 relating to my Grandfather at Wood Green Lodge 576 in pretty good condition with all the inscription readable. Happy to upload if anyone interested. I wonder if BarryW in particular could tell me anything about that particular lodge.
Many thanks
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Hello 'Secretary' and 'illidge knight'
Wood Green Lodge 576 met at Three Jolly Butchers, High Rd, Wood Green in 1923 on a Monday. By 1937 it had moved to the Fishmonger's Arms. I think this lodge had closed by the 60's
Lodge 642 was West Norwood Lodge which met at Rosendale Hotel, Park Rd, West Norwood. SE27 again on a Monday in 1923 . By 1937 it had moved to the Norwood Hotel, Knight's Hill. West Norwood. This Lodge survived until at least the 60's.
Chapter 29 met at the Balham Hotel, Balham in the 30's and was still in existence in the 60's.
Hope this helps and always keen to see any pictures
regards
Barry
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Barry
Many thanks. Able to track down using Google Earth the pub that was called the Three Jolly Butchers now called Monaghans and useful background reading on Wood Green and its history from village to multi culture. Now if I can work out how to add attachments I'll show some of the stuff I have . Again many thanks.
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Glad to be of some help.
Nice photos - thanks for sharing them. You have probably guessed that the PNA on the front of the jewel stands for Past Noble Arch. he would also have been presented with a certificate as well.
Regards
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Barry
My grandfather who was born in London the son of an immigrant German possibly Jew christened as Jacob Daniel Backer but known as John Daniel Baker lived in difficult times. His father was interned during world war one even though he came to England in the 1880's and had sons who fought and died for GB. Sad to note that on the War Graves Commission site where his (my great grandfather) sons death is confirmed he was not even acknowledged as the father although his wife was acknowledged as the mother.
Besides being a good man my grandfather to whom the medals were given invented the knee device still used today to lay carpets. You may have used or seen it used it yourself.
Many thanks again.
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That is very interesting and also a sad story.
I am sure he enjoyed his Druids membership. I can only assume the Druids were quite popular with other immigrant communities as there were both Italian and french speaking Lodges in London.
You may also be interested to know that an offshoot of the AOD became popular in America and some German speaking members returned to German taking their druidism with them. Today there are quite a number of Druids Lodges in Germany and other Countries in Northern Europe.
regards
Barry
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Barry
Many thanks.
While my Grandfather was alive until 1969 and I knew him he always lived in London and we in the Peak District. I recall as a smallish child been taken by him for a walk through the financial part of the City of London walking into and out of buildings in use. I recall him saying to me that he was following established rights of way albeit then there were buildings built over the right of way.
Thank you again.
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My grandfather was a member of the Berkshire Lodge of the Ancient Order of Druids in the 1930s. Neither the Local History Library nor the Berkshire County Archives have any information about them. I have a handful of artefacts, including a photo album but am not tec savvy enough to post pictures. If anyone knows of any other places I might search for information about this Lodge I would be very interested in sharing information.