RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: arranquest on Thursday 22 January 09 11:51 GMT (UK)
-
Hello, I am new to the site and came upon it when desperatley seeking "JOHN ARRAN" of the 1st of Foot, who left descendents in Pembrokeshire! - namely me!!
I have managed to trace documentation as far back as his good wife Jane a widow in 1871 census of Pembrokeshire.
I can neither find documentation of his three childrens' birth certificates John (1852/1854), Martha (1854/1855) and Annie (1868/1869) or indeed his marriage certificate to Jane (apparently from Narbeth 1832/1835).
I have been in touch with Colonel Mason of the Royal Scots, who was very informative regarding the movements of 1st of Foot in Wales in 1853/1854. Also with Kew, but they could not trace John in the 1st Battalion musters of 1852-1854.
So, I am hoping that there is someone here that may have a lead on JOHN ARRAN, so that I can follow further back on the genetics trail!!.
Regards, Lynnette.
-
Hi Lynnette
Welcome to Rootschat! :)
I couldn't resist this one!
As you say, no obvious marriage - nor death for John senior.
Do you have a marriage certificate for any of the children, to see what they say about their father?
I find the gap between the children's ages interesting - John 19, Martha 17 and Annie 3 in 1871. Could this have been a second marriage? Do you know Jane's maiden name and could one of more of them have been illegitimate?
I notice that she has another son Albert who is aged 10 in 1881 ...? There is a birth registration for him in December 1871, Pembroke 11a 771 .
Will have another look later.
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
-
Good Morning Arranroots,
Thank you so much for contacting me :)
I will tell you what I have:
Albert was the illegitimate son of Martha, although Jane registered his birth.
On the marriage certificates of the children, all have the name John Arran a soldier, deceased on them.
I cannot find Jane's maiden name as I, nor the exceptionally helpful registrars of Pembrokshire can find birth certificates of the John (jr.), Martha or Annie.
On Jane's death certificate, she is stated as being a widow of John a Private 1st Foot Regiment.
The information that Colonel Mason forwarded to me is as follows:
"Our 1st Battalion moved, in January 1853, from Portsmouth to South Wales - HQ and 5 companies in Newport, 2 Companies at Carmarthen, 2 at Brecon and 1 at Cardigan.
On 24 May the 2 from Brecon relieved the Depot of the 36th of Foot at Pembroke and, on 31 May, 2 from Newport joined them. On 3 March 1854 the Battalion sailed from Plymouth for the Crimea War. The 36th were the Herefordshire Regiment which, through various convolutions, became the Worcester and Sherwood Foresters.
1853 was the only time that the Battalion was in Pembroke or indeed in Wales."
Any advice from you on where to go from here would be would be appreciated!
Many thanks, Lynnette.
-
Have you discounted the John Arran who served with the 20th Dragoon?
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-3877815&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CJOHN%2CARRAN&accessmethod=0
I know absolutely zilch about the armed forces, so for all I know, the Dragoons could be a totally difference time period, but I thought I would let you know about this John Arran just in case.
Best wishes, and good luck with your search,
Spider
Added: I think he may be too early for your John Arran, so I do apologise for leading you up the garden path
-
I find the gap between the children's ages interesting - John 19, Martha 17 and Annie 3 in 1871. Could this have been a second marriage? Do you know Jane's maiden name and could one of more of them have been illegitimate?
Do you mean a second marriage for John? Because I was wondering whether John and Martha were Jane's children - her age is given as 36, which means she would have been about 16 when she had John - not impossible by any means, but may suggest that Jane was John senior's second wife. ???
-
Greetings Spider!
An interesting train of thought! Could be The ONE. If this be my man, I wonder why the alias?
But I am still keeping options open for the Scottish connection.
Much appreciation for the link, Lynnette.
-
Hi Both
Yes, I was suggesting a second marriage for Jane, indicated by the gap before Annie's birth. Also wondered about Albert - but if Martha was Albert's mother, that would explain that.
Have you looked for births for "a Martha" with a different surname in the right year?
If the regiment was only in Pembrokeshire for a short period, that suggests that either Jane met and married him elsewhere, or someone was telling porkies somewhere along the line!
Unless John Arran adopted the children and they took his name?
Confused of Gloucestershire ...
-
Here's one out of left-field -
How committed are you to the idea that the surname is ARRAN? Could it have been misheard? There are a John and a Martha born in Haverfordwest about the right time - surname ALLEN.
I haven't followed this up, just thought I'd throw it into the mix!
:)
-
Incredible! Will positively follow that train of thought - especially as Jane appears as Harran in later census of 1891, living with her daughter Martha and her family (Lumkin). ;)
-
Hiya everyone this is a strange one i cant find a John and Martha with a Mother Jane in 1861 at all under Arran or another surname.
Janes age varies in 1871 shes 36,1881 shes 56,1891 shes 69.
Another thing i noticed but dont know if its an error there are 2 Jane Arrans who passed in Qtr Dec 1896 one age 64 one aged 84 .
Lynette have you looked in St Marys Parish records i have a lot of children around the same time in my own family tree who wernt registered but were baptised.Incase you havent i have asked someone for a look up whos helped me greatly with my own family in Pembs.However dont know if hes transcribed up to the 1850s or 60s yet but have emailed him just incase he has.
Welsh Lady
-
Thank you Welsh Lady. I am really hoping for progress on this line of research that you have mentioned.
The death certificate that I have for Jane Arran is 30th September 1896 age 64 years, the informant being Martha Lumkin, daughter.
Kindest Regards, Lynnette (originally from Penally!)
-
I wonder whether either of these families might be connected with yours?
1841 census HO107/744/10/28/1
John ARAN 25 sergeant do (rifle brigade) No
Mary 20 (born - not stated)
Jane 1
Address: District General Barracks, Trevethin, Monmouthshire
1851 census HO107/2489/140/21
John AARON H (marital status not given) 54 - shoemaker - Carmarthen Abergwilly
Mary W (do) 63 - shoemaker wife - do Llanegwad
John son 18 - shoemaker (ap) - do Llandeilo
John DAVIES lodger 18 - do (ap) - Brecknock Llewell
Address: 7 Trecastle Ward, Llywell, Breconshire
-
:D Good Morning Arranroots,
I will try linking these "Aran-Aaron" up. The John ARAN may be the best bet, as the Royal Scots were stationed at Brecon in 1853,and he is already an enlisted man, he may have transferred to the First of Foot (?).
Could I run this hypothesis by:
John and Jane did meet in Pembrokeshire when he was possibly stationed there in May 1853 with the Royal Scots.
She could have born John(jnr.) in that year or early 1854, and then went on to bear Martha later in the same year (the Battalion sailed from Plymouth 3 March of that year).
Then John (snr.) went to and saw active service in the Crimean War, Ceylon, thence India, the 1st Battalion returning home in 1870, whilst the 2nd Battalion moved to Hong Kong, and saw action in the Second Opium War and returned home in 1861!
Might explain the big gap in the birth of the first two and Annie. (Or Annie could even be Martha's other illegitimate child - as I can find no evidence of Annie's birth certificate, although she states that John Arran, a soldier is her father on her marriage certificate - but maybe that was what she was told, but is not the actual truth!!).
Hope you have a good day, Lynnette.
-
Good morning Arrans Roots and Quest!
Good find Arranroots on the other 2 John Arrans - there are a couple of possibilities on freebmd for the birth of Jane (as mentioned on the 1841 census):
Sep 1838
AARON Jane Llandilofawr 26 464
ARAM Jane Brecknock 26 234
Mar 1840
Arron Jane Patrington 23 64
Arranquest - interesting hypothesis, and totally feasible. The only thing that makes me wonder, is the quick turnaround of babies (but that is probably due to me having a young baby and the thought of having another one any time soon is scary :o )
What about if the John and Mary of the 1841 census had John jr and Martha. Mary died, and John sr met Jane and they had Annie. John jr and Martha could refer to Jane as mother.
-
Hiya Owen Vaughan has kindly done the look ups for us hes very knowledgable in this area of Pembs and has transcribed many Parish Records of the area and is extremely helpful so a big thank you to Owen for letting me pass this info to you.
The following should add quite nicely to your confusion ;
My index of Pembs St Mary Baptism 1847 to 1895 13 Oct 1879 Annie to Jane Arran of Bridge Terrace a washer woman baptised by C.W. Coddington a private baptism the child aged 12 yrs
06 Jun 1872 Albert to Martha Arron of Back Lane a single woman baptised by Henry S. Blink a private baptism.
There is no reference to the baptism of John Arran in the Castlemartin or Narberth hundred 1837 to 1900.
The mrge if there was one would probably have taken place at Pembroke Dock St John can check at the Record Office probably next week.
I can find no burials at St Mary or St Michael for the Arran (various spelling) surname.
It was very common that when a single woman married after having children the children automatically changed their surname to their “new” father, this normally takes place without any reference to authority.. I have my own examples of exactly this happening and have come across it searching for others.
I next turned to my Pembs St Mary Index for 1847 to 1895 and re-engineered the list to forename and date and came up with the following
07 Sept 1852 John to John & Mary Morgans of the Union a Soldier baptised by W.M.D. Berrington.This is the only John baptised at Pembs St Mary 1850 to 1854 and is the only Soldier shown in the period 1847 to 1895 with a son John. Trust this is of some assistance.
Welsh Lady, via Owen Vaughan
-
Lol Spidermonkey! Congrats on the baby & hope you're getting some sleep!
Welshlady, that's wonderful! Do encourage Owen to join in with us on Rootschat - Pembs needs all the help it can get!
I wonder if he would mind answering a question? I' m wondering whether it is usual in his experience for a baptism to say just the wife's name? I've seen plenty of earlier ones that just give the father's name, or both, but often when it is just the wife's name it means she is unmarried. Of course, this theory is immediately contradicted by Martha's being described as "single woman" and Jane not!
Look forward to any other things Owen finds out.
By the way - the ARRANS I posted earlier were just a couple from several options - the name AHERNE comes up quite a bit ...
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
-
:D Brilliant Welsh Lady - please convey my thanks to Owen.
Have a good feeling that this hopefully will be cracked very soon.
I have a fair bit of info. regarding surnames CAVILL and BESANT (Pembrokeshire) - if anyone needs assistance!
Lynnette.
-
Hello Welsh Lady :)
Hope the weekend was a good one.
Took notice of your message regarding 2 Jane Arrans passing in the qtr Dec 1896, did a check to be sure I had right one, and there is only the one listed, agree with you that there is a "clerical error" somewhere on ancestry site!!!
Kindest Regards, Lynnette.