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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: LucyLockett on Wednesday 21 January 09 21:42 GMT (UK)
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Really really stuck...... I have this guy as marrying in 1909 to Elizabeth Louise Mortimer but I cannot find his birth certificate anywhere at all... I have just ordered one but it is wrong. He is listed as 25 on his marriage certificate as is his bride. I have been told that George was known as Fred by everyone but when he died he is still listed as George W F Shepherd. The marriage took place on 23.10.1909 and george's father is listed as Charles Edward Shepherd, Labourer. The wedding was at St Thomas' Church, Bethnal Green. I did manage to have a sneak view of the 1911 census and George is listed as Frederick from what I can remember and his place of birth was Islington on the census return. Elizabeth and Fred moved to Luton a couple of years after they married and that is where they both died. On the marriage certificate George is listed as a Chair carrier (I think) and Elizabeth is a book writer. I know Elizabeth was blind from childhood. On their daughter, Ivy's, birth certificate George is listed as a Blind Society Collector and I think it has been said he was blind or partially sighted too. Does any of this ring any bells to anyone.... I have just come to a dead end... any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
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Hi
I wonder whether he's the Frederick SHEPARD who in 1901 is 16 b Islington, parents Edward (a dustman) & Elizabeth: RG13/159/58/41? There's no indication of his being blind, though.
Which was the birth certificate you purchased but found to be wrong?
Anna
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Hi, Thanks for replying! The birth certificate I have is for George Frederick Shepheard born 7.08.1885, parents Charles William Shepheard and Elizabeth Ann Shepheard formerly Bennett. I always knew the spelling of the surname was wrong but was the closest I could get, the year was out a little too... I suppose in a way I knew it was wrong but this is so frustrating. They are living 32 Bryantwood (possibly) Islington. Obviously the father's first name is the same but way out on middle name. Think found the guy whose certificate I have in 1901 census living with his family in Mitcham. The father's occupation on the birth certificate I have is a pawn brokers manger.
Thanks
Vicky
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OK, well the family I found in Islington in 1901 are in Islington in 1891 as well:
1891 census: RG12/146/7/1
3 Blenheim Rd, Upper Holloway (one of several households at the address):
Edward C. Shepherd Head M 35 Carman Oxford N[ot] K[nown]
Elizabeth do Wife M 26 London Islington
Eliza J. do 13 General servant London Islington
Millie do Daur 12 Scholar London Islington
Fred so Son 6 Scholar London Islington
Edward C. do Son 2 London Islington
John do Son 4m London Islington
The ages and spacing of the children strongly suggest that Elizabeth was not Edward C.'s first wife.
Anna :)
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Hi Anna,
Thanks for all the help. I have this family listed down in my notes and I do think that we may be on the right track for him, I suppose both George and Charles could be using their middle names else George/Fred has gotten confused with his dad's first name. Where I am stuck is trying to locate a birth certificate. Do you have any idea of a quarter, date and location.. I cannot find one to fit????
All your hard work is really appreciated.
Vicky ;D ;D
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I'm just trying to piece together a story step by step at the moment (and I agree, it's not easy to see an obvious birth certificate for Fred).
Likely birth reg for his younger brother Edward C.:
Edward Charles SHEPHERD Jun 1889 Islington 1b 196
Anna :)
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Fred's father does seem to have called himself "Charles" in 1881, if I've got the right chap:
1881 census: RG11/268/99/22
9A Albert Place, Highbury, Islington
Charles Shepherd Widr 27 Carman Oxford
(his likely birth: Edward Charles Shepherd Dec 1853 Oxford 3a 461)
It was not at all uncommon for people to alternate between first and middle names, and/or to switch their order, in the 19th century.
Anna
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Hi Anna,
Your a star!
Been working on this one for about 3 weeks and it is a nightmare!!! I have Edwards Charles Shepherd (Q4 1853 Oxford) as the father. I have him marrying a Mary Ann Onslow or Sarah Smith possibly Q2 1876 Islington and having Eliza Jane Shepherd (Q2 1877 Islington) and Rose Emily "Millie" Shepherd (Q3 1878 Islington). Then I am presuming the wife died but I cannot find a death that matches. I then think he may have married Anne Louisa BANTON Q3 1884 Islington and had George tho this could be wrong. Then maybe she died and he married Elizabeth Shaw maybe Q2 1887 Shoreditch (not sure why Shoreditch but only Elizabeth that fits I can find) and they have Edward Charles that you have, John Q1 1891, William c1896 (cant find a birth for him) and Harriet Mary Ann Q1 1901 Islington. Any help you can give is much appreciated although I do understand you must be busy. I just dont want to spend a fortune out on wrong certificates.... why if he called himself Fred was his proper name, supposedly, George Wilfred Frederick which I can find no trace whatsoever of?? Yes I do think you have the right guy.... Have him in 1881 living with his brother while Eliza and Emily are living nearby described as "nurse child" - Livin with Mary Ann Ward, wid, 54 and her family at 73 Queensland Road, Islington St Mary.
Vicky ???
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I've just found the Elizabeth Shaw marriage myself - 1887 as you say - raising the possibility that Elizabeth brought Fred into the marriage and he wasn't born a Shepherd at all...
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oh blimey... more cloak and dagger lol..... just gets worse. DO you think the father only married twice then. I can't find a death certificate for a wife before Elizabeth. I think I may have looked under shaw but could not see anything obvious but maybe having another fresh eye on it may help... perhaps. When I got the marriage certificate for George and Elizabeth I thought it would be easy sailing... my how wrong I was!
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Have you discounted this birth registration?
Births Mar 1884
Sheppard Frederick George Islington 1b 251
Regards
Valda
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I have him marrying a Mary Ann Onslow or Sarah Smith possibly Q2 1876 Islington and having Eliza Jane Shepherd (Q2 1877 Islington) and Rose Emily "Millie" Shepherd (Q3 1878 Islington). Then I am presuming the wife died but I cannot find a death that matches.
It looks as though he married Sarah Smith, as Mary Ann Onslow seems to have married the other bridegroom on the page (William Barranes).
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Lucy
Who are the witnesses to this 1909 marriage?
Any clues there as to his brothers or sisters.
Just because he collected money for the blind society,doesn't neccesarily mean that he has to be blind himself of course.
Carol
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You probably already have this, but the two daughters of Edward C.'s first marriage seem to be being cared for as nurse children by a widow named Mary Ann Ward at 73 Queensland Rd, Islington in 1881 (their names given as Elizabeth Shephard, 4, and Emily Shephard, 2, both born Islington): RG11/268/82/34.
Anna
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Thanks guys for the postings.... ok will answer in turn...
Valda - yes found this entry Q1 1884 Frederick George Sheppard (Islington). I decided to go for the other one, stupidly, as I thought the spelling "shepheard" was nearer Shepherd and it was George Frederick. I just knew when I read it yesterday nothing seemed to match. I will prob apply for this certificate but Anna did mention earlier in this posting that perhaps Elizabeth Shaw brought Fred to the marriage but I cannot find a George Wilfred Frederick Shaw either.
Anna - I think you are right about Sarah Smith but the only problem being is that I cannot find a death of Sarah Shepherd before the marriage to Elizabeth. I can find a Mary Ann Shepherd but like you say I think she married the Barranes guy so I have discounted this death.
Carol - Witnesses to the wedding were William Henry Hewett and Grace Hewett. I do not have a clue who these people were and I cannot find them on the 1901 census, can you help? I do not think they are brothers or sisters.
Anna - I had found the two nurse children which I guess gels the story a little that Charles was their father as he is listed as a widower living with his brother.... just so frustrating cannot find death of his wife.
Ok, two more puzzles..... George/Fred's occupation on the wedding certificate is listed as a chair carrier (I am pretty sure it does not say carver as there is definiitely an "i" in the second word)... any idea what this occupation exactly is??
I know Elizabeth Louise Mortimer was blind from childhood but in 1901 census she would have been approx 16 but I cannot find her either living at home or anywhere else... can anyone else find her?? Elizabeth's parents were James and Mary Ann Mortimer (nee Callcut) and they were living in Bethnal Green with Elizabeth's siblings but she appears to be pretty illusive.
Any help guys as always, much appreciated
:) ??? :)
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Ok, two more puzzles..... George/Fred's occupation on the wedding certificate is listed as a chair carrier (I am pretty sure it does not say carver as there is definiitely an "i" in the second word)... any idea what this occupation exactly is??
Lucy
Any chance you could post a small section of the marriage cert here so we can all give our expert opinions on what it says ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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Hi carole,
As requested... all information on the marriage certificate:
Marred: 23 October 1909, St Thomas Church in Parish of Bethnal Green in County of Middlesex.
George Wilfred Frederick Shepherd, 25, Batchelor, Chair Carrier (Casiers, Casier ???), residence at time of marriage: 14 Georgina Gardens. Father's name and occupation: Charles Edward Shepherd, Labourer.
Elizabeth Louise Mortimer, 25, Spinster, Book Writer (believe she wrote poems and books in braille as she was blind from childhood), residence at time of marriage: 14 Georgina Gardens. Father's name and occupation: James Mortimer, Labourer.
Sydney L Sarel (?) was the vicar
Both George and Elizabeth put "x" where they should have signed their names. Witchesses: William Henry Hewett (signed his name), Grace Hewett ("x").
Was it usual to live together before marriage or perhaps they were lodging there?
As I said I cannot find Elizabeth on the 1901 Census. Her family are listed in Bethnal Green but Elizabeth is not there.
More than anything George or Fred as he was always known is a complete mystery.
Thanks
Vicky
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Vicky
I was rather hoping that you could post a small section of the cert here,so we could look at the chair carrier...........and try and make sense of it.
It is likely he was doing that job in 1901 and it might make it easier toi track him down.
I too have been searching the 1901 high and low for Elizabeth but can't see her anywhere. You say she was blind from birth,and yet the 1891 census doesn't mention it.
Oh and no luck with Grace and/or William Hewitt/Hewett either I'm afraid.
Hmmmmm ::)
Carol
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I hope this works... scanned marriage certificate as requested...
In addition, I did find an Elizabeth Mortimer in 1901 in Croydon at a blind school but she had a different middle name. I suppose this could have been an error on the part of the person filling out the census? Think school may have been a charity school ... it was called the Normal school for music and something else. Elizabeth must have had a very good education to have been able to write books in braille. Her family were certainly not from money. Have a look at the census and let me know what you think.... she would have been 16.
Thanks
Moderator Comment: Please do not scan & post whole certificates as these are Crown Copyright. Small portion allowed to see if others can identify the groom's occupation
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I've just found the Elizabeth Shaw marriage myself - 1887 as you say - raising the possibility that Elizabeth brought Fred into the marriage and he wasn't born a Shepherd at all...
Hi Anna, did you manage to find out anything more on this? I have just come to a brick wall... do u think I should order the certificate for frederick george sheppard islington Q1 1884?? I dont have much confidence about what Im doing at the min and seem to have lost the thread.
tks
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Vicky
I was rather hoping that you could post a small section of the cert here,so we could look at the chair carrier...........and try and make sense of it.
It is likely he was doing that job in 1901 and it might make it easier toi track him down.
I too have been searching the 1901 high and low for Elizabeth but can't see her anywhere. You say she was blind from birth,and yet the 1891 census doesn't mention it.
Oh and no luck with Grace and/or William Hewitt/Hewett either I'm afraid.
Hmmmmm ::)
Carol
What did u think to the certificate?? can you make out the occupation of george?? Just absolutely stuck in front of a brickwall and have no idea what direction to go?? if you were me would you go for the birth certificate of frederick george sheppard Q1 1884 Islington??
Tk u ??? :) :-\
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Ahhh I have just discovered something ;D
At 14 Georgina Gardens in 1901 lived a Hewett family ,with a 22 year old Grace.
The dad was a porter in a city office. Unfortunately it doesn't give an occupation for Grace,but I bet she was a friend of Elizabeth's and that's why they used that address to marry from!
They only needed to have been there for 3 weeks whilst the banns were read.
Is there any chance you can post just a small part of the cert- the bit that says his job....but slightly enlarged- it is REALLY difficult to read isn't it.
I believe you are contravening copyright laws by posting the whole cert...even if it is sidewards ;D
Possibly others may come online later this evening who can make more sense of the job.Which I think should say Chair Caner.....cos that's often the job that blind people did.........and still do.
Carol
Carol
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I have now followed Grace Hewett's parents James and Mary back and found their marriage in Lincoln in 1879.
She used to be Mary Jane Smith 8)
Sooooo could the families have been related and Grace was someone's cousin?
I'm sure the surname Smith comes into things earlier in this thread?
Carol
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Carol you are fab!!! Point taken, i will try and enlarge the small part of the certificate and try and just post part of it and delete the certificate i have posted.... the bit with the occupation. I will need to do it at work tomorrow so watch this space. Any ideas yet of the birth cert for George / Fred???
chat tomorrow
Vicky
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Despite an incorrect second name it does look a likely candidate for Elizabeth on the 1901 census
RG13 652 folio 202
Royal Normal College and Academy of Music for the Blind Upper Norwood Croydon
Elizabeth Anne Mortimer Pupil Single 16 Student London Blind from Childhood
You can find records for the Royal Normal College and Academy of Music for the Blind at the London Metropolitan Archives which include scholarship and beneficaries records from Gardner's Trust for the Blind, so you might be able to find out quite a lot about Elizabeth.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/subjectView.asp?ID=O53177
There is no indication that Frederick had a disability on the 1901 census (as already stated by Anna)
RG13 159 folio 58
74 Hampden Road Islington
Edward Shepard 48 Head Married Dustman Oxford Oxfordshire
Elizabeth Shepard 38 Wife Married Islington London
Frederick Shepard 16 Son General Labourer Islington London
Edward Shepard 12 Son Islington London
John Shepard 10 Son Islington London
William Shepard 4 Son Islington London
Harriett Shepard 4 months Daughter Islington London
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Thanks for the information...... think Elizabeth could be quite interesting. She must have had a good education to have been a book writer and I know she was blind. Her family certainly did not have money so the info seems to feet.
Do you have any idea about George Wilfred Frederick Shepherd's birth? I think he must have been the offspring of a second wife and perhaps Elizabeth Shaw was a third wife or he was her child but can find no birth record for him. I am at a brick wall for his birth.... after looking at the information I have provided do you have any ideas??
Thanks
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Repeating my previous post
'Have you discounted this birth registration?
Births Mar 1884
Sheppard Frederick George Islington 1b 251'
Regards
Valda
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The occupation could be 'chair caner' written over a word with 'i' in it.
Richard
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Thanks, I think it is Chair Caner as have now been told Fred worked with wicker
Lockett
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Repeating my previous post
'Have you discounted this birth registration?
Births Mar 1884
Sheppard Frederick George Islington 1b 251'
Regards
Valda
Hi Valda,
No, not discounted it BUT and is a big but..... In 1881 Charles Edward Shepherd was a widower with two small girls. In 1891 he is married to an Elizabeth and the only marriage I can find is Elizabeth Shore and they married in Shoreditch in Q2 1887 so she cannot have been Fred's mother unless he was born Shaw but I can find no birth for him with that surname to fit. Do you think there was a marriage in between that resulted in Fred?? Otherwise I think I will just have to take the plunge and go for the certificate you have suggested. Would like your input on the mystery tho....
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Ooops meant Elizabeth SHAW not SHORE
Apologies
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Vicky, I think you're going to have to take a chance on that birth certificate if you're to progress with this. We can speculate all we like about what might have happened, but it's worth nothing without the documents.
You can save money on speculative certificates by using the GRO's "checking points" system, whereby you specify something you know to be true of the correct person (e.g. for this birth certificate - that the father's name is Edward or Charles or some combination of the two) and if the certificate doesn't match the checking point you get a partial refund and no certificate.
If the Sheppard birth turns out to be wrong, there are a couple of Shaw ones at the right sort of time - but probably better to start out with the Sheppard one and see what happens.
Anna :)
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Vicky
With marriages you can never be sure that people use both their names when they marry, marry before the birth of children, or even marry at all. Births can be registered as legitimate when they are not. There was no checking system (until the second half of the C20th) so even if Frederick's parents were not yet married there was nothing to stop them registering their children as legitimate - they just needed to bluff it out with the registrar.
If you are able to eliminate the Frederick George Sheppard birth registration (there is no other Frederick either in or born Islington on the 1901 census of that age, so if he is not yours who is he) then to establish Elizabeth's surname for certain it would be better getting one of the other children's birth certificates.
Births Jun 1889
Shepherd Edward Charles Islington 1b 196
Births Mar 1901
Shepherd Harriet Mary A Islington 1b 167
Regards
Valda
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Hi Anna and Valda,
I am going to take your advice and just plump for the Frederick George Sheppard birth. Hopefully there will be a match. Otherwise I will apply for one of the other children's and see just who their mother was. Your help and advice has been invaluable so as ever.... thanks very much. I will let you know how I get on and / or if the certificate leads to any further confusion.
Vicky :)