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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: emmsthheight on Wednesday 21 January 09 16:43 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Would any kind person be going to Weaste Cemetery for a look up? If they were, I'd really love someone to look for my gggrandfather's grave. I don't know if I have enough information though.
I don't have a map, but I do have the number and the details from the grave papers.
It's burial no.3047 Only thing is I wrote the ref. with my left hand when the other one was injured. It's Plot C26 or possibly C2c. I'm hoping only one of these will make sense.
He's Gurney Patmore and the others buried with him arre children and grandchildren of his.
I know there may not be a stone, but I'd still love a photo of where it is, and the others round it and my older relatives would love to know what state it's in.
Don't worry if the weather's too bad or I haven't given you enough information. But just on the offchance!
Thank you for reading.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Emms, i don't go over that side of town much but if you get no offers i will try and find the grave for you. I will send you a map of the cemetery. I am sure you will be over run with offer after all the kind look ups you do for people on here, but if you don't get any takers in the next week give me a pm and only to willing.
Migky ;)
ps will need to know what religion you think they were ?
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Hi Migky
What a star! Instant response - and the map too! Thank you for the kind comments - not sure totally deserved but I do try!
Thank you for your offer too. I know you do loads of look ups for people too. Actually it's not as straight forward as I thought when I look at the map.
I've slipped up too. That's actually a grave number if I've copied it down correctly originally , not a burial number - whuch makes sense, as there are six burials. I'll see if I can check that.
Religion? Well that's a really big question!m Most likely Catholic or C of E. I'll type the full story - or some of it! - later and also pm you.
Thank you again.
Emms
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Hi and again!
Right, back to the rest of your question Mgky!
I have never found a baptism for Gurney.
His father was widely billed as being agnostic and againsnst religion. His mother was Scottish and of a very religious . I can't remember of which denomination but very strict - Church of Scotland or a Scottish Nonconformist group.
There are baptisms around London for his sister and older brother inthe Church of England but I've not found them for Gurney and his other brother.
After his father lost money and had debts on the railway, he and his brother were left to make their own way, and worked up in the world of letters. He eventuaally had editorshiops on the Derby Mercury and after ma4rrying a Derbt girl he went to the Argus in Australia.
Five children were baptised in the church of England.
Now another mystery. He came back to Salford and stayed there and Essex and the four boys were rebaptised Catholics. We have no evidence of conversion for Gurney though - or his wife or daughter and the youngest daughter born in this country was baptised Church of England.
She by 1911 is working in a convent and I think from what people remember she was a Catholic.
The older brother had already converted - another long story to catholicism.
You would ask!
The son who brought the grave was definitely a catholic, but we're surprised if this is the case that the grave is not at Moston.
So we think it could be either! I've a couple of obituaries but no clue.
I wonder if the boys converted because the older brother who was a Catholic helped out and possibly got places at a Catholic school for them. Maybe he wouldn't convert, maybe because his wife wouldn't? She died soon after the return.
So really, I'm not sure. Every bit of evidence another big mystery!
Thank you again for all your efforts.
Best wishes
Emms
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Gee! now tottally confused :-\
Right are you now saying you don't know if it is Weaste Salford or ST.Joseph's Moston ?
First of all as you have the name of the person and the grave number, why not contact the cemeteries. and ask them to check what details you have?
Weaste records are at Agecroft Cemetery Office
Langley Road
Swinton
Salford
Manchester
M27 8SS
Telephone0161-736 2512
Emailagecroft.cemetery(at)salford.gov.uk
And Moston's
St. Joseph's Catholic Cemetery.
Moston Lane
Moston
Manchester M40 9QL
Tel: 0161 681 1582
Fax: 0161 682 8352
Once you find out which it is , let me know.
Migky ;)
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Emms
If it is St Josephs you will need the section letter or name, this cemetery is all catholic but has something like 22 seperate plot locations.
Migky
If you end up going to Weaste give us a shout I will tag along with you.
Regards
Ken
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Hi all,
Just to add my bit, if you do need someone to check out Weaste I can do it Sunday or Monday for you, just let me know all the details!
Heather :)
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I can go to Weaste as well, but would be the same days as heather - hey maybe we should meet there anyway heather?????
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Hi, I remember nearly 20 years ago the Manchester and Lancashire Family History Society were doing the Monumental inscription recording for Weaste, or they had already done it. It might be worth asking them about it.
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Hi HawkesFH
If they have done it I've never seen them, you can however get a grave description per surname, not per name for £6 from CEMSEARCH, (should come up in google). Elaine has transcribed all of Weaste Cemetery on her own, so if anyone wants a search I recommend her site first, if its not there then email, Agecroft Cemetery as suggested by Migky, when you have a grave number, if you wish for a photo, please post here and either myself or Heather will go and take one.
Debbie
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M & L FHS have many things they transcribed that you simply buy from Their Shop at Clayton House, Piccadilly, Manchester.
They are not necessarily for sale in other venues.
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I remember it as being a private publication in their society library at Clayton house, it was a white B4 booklet I think. May have been redone by now though
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Hi again,
My offer still stands and Debbie it would be great to meet up sometime this year! I am also going back to Southern on these days if anyone needs a lookup - will need the section and grave number though.
Heather ;D
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Hi and thank you so much everybody. :) :) :)
Thank you for the information - nearly all news to me - and the offers to photograph. All really appreciated.
I'm sorry I've not been back on sooner, but my mouse started smoking - by it's tail! a couple of nights ago. so I had to shut the computer off rapidly. I got back pom without a mouse, but I couldn't master the Rootschat system. Anyway I'm back in action.
Sorry I confused you Migky. We're confused too, and that's only the tip of the iceberg! Though it has to be said there was a lot going on in the religious world at this time and they won't be the only ones.
I just meant that we do know that Gurney is buried at Weaste and have all the details for the grave, except that the number was jot quite clear. On our system I can sometimws tell if a digit isn't quite clear what it will be.
Also, in reply to your question about th religion, I just meant that being buried at Weaste when most of the family were at Moston which is Catholic was a bit surprising, so might poiint to him not being.
I'll contact the relative I got this from, for clarity on the number.
Thank you for the kind offers to look at the grave. Only thing is, I don't know if I'll find out in time. We did know he is buried at Weaste, but I would love to see a picture of the area he's in and also what styae it's in and whether it's been taken over or anything?
Thank you all so much .
I will get back with the details.
Emms
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Hi all
This is just a little note to say, thank you all for your kind offers and I'm really sorry I didn't get back with the checked grave number. Maybe I should have picked a week when there was a bit less going on.
Thank you again.
Emms
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Hi Emms
just as well you didn't get back to me because I have been without internet since last Saturday. I am usually free on Mondays and some weekends so if you need a look up just send me a pm and I will trot off. My friend lives on Cemetery road so it is always a good excuse to call for a coffee!! ;)
Best wishes
Heather
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Hi Heather
Thank you! That's really appreciated. My phone's on the blink, but when it's working clearly I'll ring and see if we can find the orginal and check the number.
By the way, is Cemetery Rd all rebuilt or does it have the old houses still? My ggrandmother's family were living there when her brother joined the Alexian brothers and was caring for the cemetery.
Thank you again.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Emms,
It must be a week for gremlins, mine was a five year old busy nosey. My friends hamster chewed through her cable last week ;D
There is one row of terraced houses left on Cemetery Road, what number did your family live in?
If it is still up i will take a pic for you.
Heather :)
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Hi Heather
Thank you and thank you again! I would really love a picture of the road, even if the house has gone, but I will look out the census.
I rang my aunt and she is going to look out the original document from Weaste. She says there was a stone but not the usual kind. If I got it right it's one of those with a kind of flat lid and little walls with writing on but they said it had sunk quite a bit so I don't know if you'll be able to see any writing.
Mind I don't know how fast they sink, but the last burial was only fifty years ago, and it must be over ten years since she started with these I think.
Thank you so much for both your offers.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Heather
Thank you again for your kind offer. I'm wonderinh if I've got my Cemetery Roads a bit mixed. Actually, it was 1891 aand 1901 when the brother was caring for the cemetery and he of course was at Moston. By then the family were at Church Street Pendleton.
In 1881 he was still at home when they lived at Cemetery Road but I'm wondering if there's more than one. I asumed it was by the cemetery where he was working but it wouldn't be Weaste then.
This is 14 Cemetery Road, Pendlebury , two doors from Cemetery Lodge andthen it goes round the corner to 1 Kirkham Street. Is this your Cemetery Road or is there another one?
I'll let you know when I get the grave number confirmed.
Thank you again and best wishes
Emms
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PS Hi Ken
I love your Dancing Men. Nice to see them back!
Emms
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Hi Emms, you sorted out where and who we are trying to get a grave photo of yet? I am getting a little confused now? Have you managed to phone the cemeteries yet and see which one they buried in?
Migky ;)
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PS Hi Ken
I love your Dancing Men. Nice to see them back!
Emms
They needed a short vacation, they were all danced out ;D
Ken
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Hi Migky
Sorry Yes I have confused you. I think you missed out on a bit in the middle.
I always knew which cemetery and the detail. I just decided I've read the plot wrongly as I wrote it with my left hand. We've got all the other details and like I said my aunt's looking it out. I think you've missed out the bit after your question or something's gone in between.
The last bit about Moston was just because Heather was talking about Cemetery Road and my Hoeys lived in Cemetery Road, but I don't know if that's the one by Weaste.
Here's the bit.
Hi and thank you so much everybody. :) :) :)
Thank you for the information - nearly all news to me - and the offers to photograph. All really appreciated.
I'm sorry I've not been back on sooner, but my mouse started smoking - by it's tail! a couple of nights ago. so I had to shut the computer off rapidly. I got back pom without a mouse, but I couldn't master the Rootschat system. Anyway I'm back in action.
Sorry I confused you Migky. We're confused too, and that's only the tip of the iceberg! Though it has to be said there was a lot going on in the religious world at this time and they won't be the only ones.
I just meant that we do know that Gurney is buried at Weaste and have all the details for the grave, except that the number was jot quite clear. On our system I can sometimws tell if a digit isn't quite clear what it will be.
Also, in reply to your question about th religion, I just meant that being buried at Weaste when most of the family were at Moston which is Catholic was a bit surprising, so might poiint to him not being.
I'll contact the relative I got this from, for clarity on the number.
Thank you for the kind offers to look at the grave. Only thing is, I don't know if I'll find out in time. We did know he is buried at Weaste, but I would love to see a picture of the area he's in and also what styae it's in and whether it's been taken over or anything?
This bit just meant I was surprised they'd gone to Weaste if Gurney was a Catholic when everyone else was at Moston. ???
The son who brought the grave was definitely a catholic, but we're surprised if this is the case that the grave is not at Moston.
I'll put the number on as soon as I get it.
Thank you again for all your help.
Sorry I confused you. :(
Emms :) :)
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Hi Emms,
I think we are all getting a bit mixed up but senior moments do occur. ;D
I was on about the Cemetery Road that leads to Weaste Cemetery. I can though go to the Cemetery Road in Pendlebury as well, it's not too far. I am happy to cover Salford and I am sure Debbie is as well and Ken and Migky appear to be happy to cover the Moston side for you.
So as soon as you are certain just let me know and snow permitting I will take them for you.
Heather
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Hi and Thank You all! :) :) :)
Heather, I was only really asking if this would be the same Road. I'm always really thrilled when any of you take any photo's for me, but I don't want you to get more than you bargained for when you replied.
I have looked at maps and things but I still get confused with these Manchester areas. The only ones I know that have all the areas named are so big I get confused anyway, and some roads seem to have different names on different documents.
Yes, the snow does put a different perspective on things doesn't it? very pretty if you're only photographing the garden, but otherwise it's a different matter!" I must admit though, I'm itching to get nearer the fells with a camera.
Thank you again.
Don't worry about it.
Emms
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Hi Emms
I have just re read a post you put on. You mention the Cemetery Road leading to Kirkham Street - this is definitly Weaste Cemetery. Kirkham Street runs parallel to Cemetery Rd in Weaste.
Will take pics for you of it when I go to the grave. :)
Heather
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Hi Heather
Thank you! You're a star!
That bit was written from the sequence on that 1881 Census page, which has a large sector of the Hoey clan plus married daughter with husband and baby at the house.
With the son George on the census, going to Moston Cemetery, I never thought of this being by Weaste until just now!
Good night and thank you again!
Emms
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Hi Emms
glad to be of help, just post the grave plot and I will go. Went past there today on my rounds and thought of you!
Am off for four days from Saturday, so could go then.
Heather
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Hi Everyone and Thank You for all the kind replies.
I know it's a bit late in the day, and people probably have different commitments now, so I'll understand if noone is able to go, but I have got the exact details of the grave at Weaste from my auntie.
The plot number is Grave 3047, Section C 20.
It's a grave bought for Gurney Patmore in 1883 by his son Alfred. Alfred and five other relatives are also buried there.
There may not be as much as I'd hoped even to see. She also told me about a letter I didn't know about, from Weaste a few years ago. They said the stone had sunk about a foot. It was a flat stone, but I'm not sure how high the sides were to start with. I knew it was meant to have sunk but not about the letter.
If anyone does have chance and they're going there anyway, I'd love to know what state it is in or even have a photo of what's ;est of the site.
Just for interest, she's also got some of the reciptsa from the grave and she gave me some quotes of costs - bearing in mind that this would not be the cheepest stone.
To open the grave - £6 2s 6d
Stone and Inscription - £2 10s
Registrar - 3s
I guess that's inflation!
Thank you again, but no pressure as I said, I know it's a while ago.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Emms,
No problem, will go this afternoon for you. By the way the only houses left are a block of terraces on the left as you go in starting with number 3. Will take a pic for you also, don't know if the other side was the same or not though.
See you later Heather
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Hi Heather, you're an absolute star! Thank you very much!
Anything you can do will be brilliant!
Thank you again.
Emms
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Hi Emms,
Just back from the cemetery, sadly the stone is no longer there. Whilst there I met Gerald from the Friends of Weaste Cemetery group. He told me that many stones have been removed to make mowing easier. We did scrabble about to check it wasn't covered over with grass but it has gone. I have taken some pictures of the area for you. Gerald also informed me of an area where removed stones have been placed so I paid a visit and was horrified to find piles of them literally. It was so sad to see them and I will place these pictures for others to see. I doubt anyone had the foresight to take down the transcriptions. I took a couple that had legible ones on.
On a more postive note there is a website that is dedicated to the cemetery:
www.weasteheritagetrail.co.uk
It is in the early stages so keep checking it out. they are also keen to have stories about the people buried there so hopfully some of its history can be kept alive.
Any way Emms if you pm with your e-mail I will forward on to the pictures and I am going to again attempt to post some on here but it may be a while because despite Midgys best efforts I have yet to succeed but I will try again.
Heather
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Okay, about to try and post pic 1 of discarded stones ...........................
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Yeah did it!!!!
Will post more later - many thanks Midgky- no stopping me now!!
Heather x
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Hi Heather
I hope you got Gerald to sign up on Roots ;D
Why not stick that website into resources as well
Ken :)
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Hi Ken,
I did mention RootsChat and asked if he minded my posting their site details. Will take you up on that suggestion of it going on resources board.
He also told me that they have found @200 more war dead than listed through the CWGC !! Quite staggering really. There is also a booklet about the place and when i met him he was in the process of doing more research.
Love the Cat ;D
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Hi Heather
Thank you so much. You must have gone nearly straight away! I've only just got in sand looked. I will send you my email address in a pm.
A shame about the grave stone and that picture really is awful! I've seen stones piled and you could imagine some sort of respect but not like that.
Even so, I guess it's a mammoth task caring for a cemetery - but---
Thank you though - there are a few positive out comes. You've introduced us to a very interesting gentlemen and brought up the Weaste project again!
I think it was Migky told us about it but I didn't get around to doing anything and when I looked on the sith there was no mention. It sounds as if it's up and running. I think I will contact them when I've puit some stuff together. I can write an encyclopedia. Rootscatters will be sick of hearing!
Also, the stone you did get is an Anastasia, and they are few and far between. I'm going to view it properly to see if I can see the surname. It looks longish, so possible link to my Irish family.
One door closes, another door opens - but it's still ajar!
As for those stones *******@@@@####!!
I will really look forward to your photo's.
Thank you again and best wishes
Emms
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PS
Thank you both - Gerald too if he reads it or you see him again for going the extra mile and trying to dig down, and also for going to look at the piles of stones.
I guess you can safely say that even if I come up with Gurney and his family's tale, we won't be seeing the stone again!
Thank you again.
Best wishes
Emms
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PS
Hi again
Thank you for the great link to the Weaste Heritage site, Heather. I will be keeping my eye on it. It does have to be said that the cemetery away from the broken stones seems to be beautifully kept. I guess I will write my own memorial!
Thank you again!
Emms
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Hi Emms,
I did go almost right away but turned the iron off first :) was glad of the excuse. Have sent you the pics.
Heather
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Hi Heather
Thank you for all your photo's. You really did do a thorough job and I'm enjoying looking at them. I'll have another look at the Weaste site too.
Thank you again
Emms
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I have just come across this thread and was horrified to see the photos of the removed stones. I find it very disturbing that this could happen and to read that it was because it enables the area to be mowed. Does anyone know if this stone removal has taken place in one particular area of the cemetery, is it happening over a wide area, or randomly ?? I was interested in the Weaste heritage trail website - will keep checking there for more information. Five years ago I managed to get to Weaste and found a family grave. The stone provided a lot of valuable information and gave me names of family members I did not previously know about. I am so glad I took photographs. I am now concerned that the stone might not always be there and indeed may have already gone.
As another rootschatter pointed out, the stones have not even been placed so that transcriptions can be made. I think this is appalling.
Chirp
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Hi Chirp
Thank you for adding your opinions. It's not just me being fussy.
If this is the right place for our grave, then therte are p[lnty of stones still standing and some of them look to be adjacent to each other. The only difference with ours is that as I said, it had a little wall and was flat.
On the other hand, if it had shrunk as far as they said, I don't see how it would be a problem anyway, You couldn't get the largest machines between the others still standing in the pictures I've been sent anyway.
I don't really follow the logic.
Best wishes
Emms
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Thank you Emms. No I don't see the logic either. I'm just worried that the stone removal which has taken place might just be the start of something bigger. Many people want to be able to see the headstones on their ancestors' graves. It would be tragic for this information to be lost. I know that it is lost often due to time and the weather and there are lots of dedicated people trying to preserve MIs, so when I hear about this sort of destruction it does make me angry.
Good luck in your search.
Chirp
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Hi
Me and Heather are looking into getting something done with those headstones, it may take time though.
I have sent an email to the guy from the Weaste Cemetery Heritage, hopefully, he can tell us what if
anything is being done.
I think the only reason those stones are where they are, is for safety reasons, there are few headstones with
notices on them, and I can quite understandebly see why. I am not saying its right to remove the headstones
but some are in such a dangerous state, they could kill someone.
Anyway, we will keep you all informed on any progress we make, if only a temporary measure to get them transcribed
if nothing else.
Debbie
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Salford just like Manchester are just using this as a money making scam. If they had any thoughts for the people who owned the graves or any family's who were searching for these graves. They would lay them inscription side up, then you could read them. Health and safety is a great excuse to make money and is there way of copping out of there responsibility. I have known family's been charged up to £350 to secure head stone
Migky ;)
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I fear you may be right Migky - H&S is a great way to make money (and for sad little bureaucrats to earn brownie points). Thank you Salford Lass for taking this on -do post if you need any backup, ie letters writing in support of what you're trying to achieve. It is so important that at least the information is preserved. Do you think that only unstable stones have been removed? It would be great if the Heritage people could confirm that no others have been or will be taken down. Good luck to you and Heather.
Chirp
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Hi Heather, Migky, all!
Sounds great what you're doing. I'm sure I was told the reason for ours being moved was to make mowing easier. SAs I said though, it was one with a little wall, etc I've been told.
I'll keep my eye on the post.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi
Migky - I appreciate what you are saying, but and I can only say this for Weaste Cemetery, there are very few burials take place there now, and most of the Headstones haven't got owners, which means there is no one available to make good the damaged or falling headstones.
Chirp - yes I do believe that the only Headstones that have been removed are those that would have caused danger to someone.
Health and Safety - from my point of view only - If i went to a Grave Yard, and say I was transcribing, and I held the top of a Gravestone (which I have done in the past), and it fell on me, (assuming I was only Injured and not dead), Who do I sue ????, so yes I agree that unsafe Headstones should be removed, but I would prefer them to be laid flat for Inscription purposes.
Upkeep of Gravestones - no offence Migky, but if I had paid in the region of £1,000 plus for a burial, headstone etc, I would look after it, if a headstone was not maintained, what are the councils suppose to do ???? There are many Headstones that are not looked after by the people who own them, although Family Researchers like myself and you now know what that means.
I think we all need to look at the wider issue here and not let our hearts rule our heads!!!
To All - thanks for the Support lol
Debbie
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Interesting post
But to be honest I would not pay to have a headstone fixed as it is a complete rip off. It does not matter if I own the grave rights or not, if I find a fallen stone of a family member "near or far" I go back at weekend and refix myself with the aid of a spade and a couple of bags of concrete, and a mate called Stu.
The ones I have reinstalled would need dynamite to get out.
As for the councils, they never see cemeteries as historical places, which I think they should do. I agree, stones in a dangerous condition should be layed down but face up flush with the grass so the mowers can get over them. It's not hard to do
Blackburn Fossil
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Tis a poor excuse to let the council off the hook. It is them who place the headstones face down. It is them that do as little maintenance as possible. It is the people who in the beginning pay for those grave and pay by way of taxes to the council. You only have to look at the state of Weaste or the buildings at Agecroft to see what i mean. Salford council are worst than Manchester for ripping people off with the price of grave infomation. £15 for just who is in a grave. Manchester has been shamed into giving out more FREE grave infomation. Still can't beat Tameside for there great service on burial records
No offense Salford lass
Migky
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Hi & welcome to rootschat Blackburn Fossil. It must have taken you ages to re-erecting the headstone. It is lucky you had a good friend to help you. I see you under stand by what i meant when i said the council laying headstone face down. Not all are to do with health and safety. I have a family members head stone that is a little over 18 inches high, and just because it is leaning forward slightly they have put a notice on it say it is a problem. I bet next time i go to the cemetery it will be laid face down.
Migky ;)
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Thanks Migky
Yes you really need a friend to help.
Thanks for the private message but I cannot reply for some reason. Now hoping to spend more time on here.
Cheers
BF
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Hi BF
Welcome to Rootschat! You'll get loads of help on here. I have.
I think you need three messages to use the pm system. So reply to this one and you should be able to pm Migky.
Best wishes
Emms
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Thanks Migky
Yes you really need a friend to help.
Thanks for the private message but I cannot reply for some reason. Now hoping to spend more time on here.
Cheers
BF
Hi BF, just reply to this post and then you will be able to send PM's. You have to have had a minmum of three post on rooschat before you are allowed to send PM's
Migky ;)
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Stone curbs around the graves are being removed everywhere so as to make mowing the grass more easy and safely done.
Where the gravestones are loose or where no one is now responsible for the upkeep of those stones they are being removed for Health & Safety reasons since a child who was playing in the cemetery had a stone fall on him I think it was Rochdale way , so now all authorities are paranoid about stones. In our cemetery we are getting letters for us to have work done on the headstones even when they are absolutely solid in place with a £120.00 fee for each family grave. the Bills are being sent to the people who have the grave papers in their keeping.
Every stone marked with a sticker has to have them re-set at the bases even though ours are one concrete footings and not directly into the soil.
They are putting the onus on the bereaved and not on the fact that children should not be using the cemeteries/graveyards as a playground.
I have also noticed that my next door neighbour has had some stone slabs put into her garden as a feature and it was quite obvious when they were wet that there had been some sort of engraving on them previously. So obviously re-cycled stones
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Health & Safety gone mad (again) - it's up to parents to make sure their children don't play in dangerous places and I would have thought that graveyards offered several potential dangers.
What happens if the owner of the grave is now in said grave? I guess it means that no one owns it (unless a descendant makes a claim?) and the council feels it can go ahead and do just what it likes.
As for lying the stones face down isn't there a H&S issue here too, after all some people might attempt to stand the stone upright in order to read the inscription................
This is history being destroyed - a sad situation.
Chirp
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Is this thread a bit dried up and defunct - I have some questions about Weaste Cemetry
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Is this thread a bit dried up and defunct - I have some questions about Weaste Cemetry
Hi Manx Hatter
Welcome to rootschat ;)
If it's not already been answered in this thread I would start a new one.
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Thanks Mancs, I'll do that
Manx