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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: joseph clarke on Tuesday 20 January 09 18:57 GMT (UK)

Title: photo help/ added second pic
Post by: joseph clarke on Tuesday 20 January 09 18:57 GMT (UK)
hello,

can anyone tell if this man would have been a private in 2bn rifle brigade?

thank you for any help,
eric
Title: Re: photo help
Post by: forester on Tuesday 20 January 09 21:56 GMT (UK)
Hello Eric,

Your photo has not attached I'm afraid.

Give it another go.

Phil
Title: Re: photo help
Post by: joseph clarke on Thursday 22 January 09 02:25 GMT (UK)
hello Phil,

i had to resize the photo to get it posted.

thanks,
Eric
Title: Re: photo help
Post by: neil1821 on Thursday 22 January 09 10:39 GMT (UK)
Yes, Rifle Brigade looks good, but there's no way we can tell which battalion of the RB. And he's a lance-corporal rather than a private.

I take it you know this chap's identity?
Title: Re: photo help
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 22 January 09 14:47 GMT (UK)
And he has at least x1 good conduct chevron, possibly x2

Have you name and dates at all??
Title: Re: photo help
Post by: joseph clarke on Friday 23 January 09 04:31 GMT (UK)
hello,


thank you!!  these are photos of my grandfather john George bayly .   my grandfather was  supposed to have served 1904-1911 in India and Egypt. i think i have found him in the 1911 census, that is where we got the rifle brigade information from. does the second photo provide anymore clues?

thank you again,
Eric
Title: Re: photo help/ added second pic
Post by: km1971 on Friday 23 January 09 07:56 GMT (UK)
Hi Eric

Regarding the 'cavalry' photograph. He still looks like an infantry man on a horse. The rifle is not a shorter carbine, but the infantry length Long Lee, and his puttees are wound like an infantry man - bottom to top, rather that top to bottom. But he is wearing a mounted man’s bandolier.

The replacement SMLE rifle was introduced in 1904, but it would have taken years to reach all regiments. Part-timers would have carried on using the Long Lee right up to WW2. That is the rifle used in Dad’s Army.

The weight of his tunic looks more Home than Overseas, and I think the hat was introduced in 1904.

Was he born c1886, so he was 25 in 1911 living in Alverstoke? If so he should have still been serving in WW1, but I cannot find a medal index card for him.

Ken
Title: Re: photo help/ added second pic
Post by: scrimnet on Friday 23 January 09 09:28 GMT (UK)
Hi Eric

Regarding the 'cavalry' photograph. He still looks like an infantry man on a horse. The rifle is not a shorter carbine, but the infantry length Long Lee, and his puttees are wound like an infantry man - bottom to top, rather that top to bottom. But he is wearing a mounted man’s bandolier.

The replacement SMLE rifle was introduced in 1904, but it would have taken years to reach all regiments. Part-timers would have carried on using the Long Lee right up to WW2. That is the rifle used in Dad’s Army.

The weight of his tunic looks more Home than Overseas, and I think the hat was introduced in 1904.

Was he born c1886, so he was 25 in 1911 living in Alverstoke? If so he should have still been serving in WW1, but I cannot find a medal index card for him.

Ken




I'm afraid Ken I will have to take issue with that!!! :o :o :o ;D ;D

The Long Lee was used by the Kitchener Armies during WW1 for training, but due to the amount of SMLEs around they were in use throughout the inter war years by secondary units. It was deemed "obsolete" by 1914

Now as for the Home Guard...even in TV progs, they used P17 and P14 rifles (!). They started off with SMLE, but after the evacuation from Dunkirk when most of the BEF kit was left on the beaches, they were withdrawn for use in the "regulars", and the "Lend Lease" P14 and 17 were  issued.



Title: Re: photo help/ added second pic
Post by: scrimnet on Friday 23 January 09 09:30 GMT (UK)
The second pic is pre WW1 as well I reckon, and the dates and int given fit in with what they show.

His bandolier is of an early model, and he is somewhat younger in the mounted pic!

It is in fact a pre 1903 "Mounted Infantry" pattern bandolier....
Title: Re: photo help/ added second pic
Post by: km1971 on Friday 23 January 09 09:59 GMT (UK)
Scimnet

Thanks for the correction about when the Long Lee became onsolete. As a 'uniform' man do you think the second pic is 'Home'? And when did they introduce that style of peaked cap.

Ken
Title: Re: photo help/ added second pic
Post by: scrimnet on Friday 23 January 09 18:08 GMT (UK)
In 1902, the dress regs for a universal uniform was issued, and thence came the SD, full dress scarlets and FS caps, although some had been worn by Regts.

The first titfer that came in was the VERY unpopular "Broderick" cap. It look a bit like a naval hat, and lasted only from 1903-5.

From thence onwards the SD cap was evident.
Title: Re: photo help/ added second pic
Post by: scrimnet on Friday 23 January 09 18:27 GMT (UK)
As for the pic...Probably home service...possibly on exercise. One coy from each Regt in the Boer War was used as mounted Inf, so it is possible the Rifle Brigade were trg for this "in the event of".
Title: Re: photo help/ added second pic
Post by: scrimnet on Friday 23 January 09 18:35 GMT (UK)
On second thoughts...

Movements of the 2nd Bn The Rifle Bde

  1898 Sudan   
  1898 Crete & Malta   
  1899.Oct (embarked at Crete) ship: Jelunga
  1899.26th Oct Natal: Durban 
  1899. South Africa 7 Bde
  1902 Egypt   
  1905 India: Chaubattia   
  1908 Calcutta   
  1911 Rawalpindi   
  1913 Kuldana   
  1914.Nov France and Flanders 8 Div
  1919 England: Aldershot   
  1920 Ireland: Ballyshannon

So...Either he was in trg at home after joining up, or he's "up country" in the winter months in India....

What I think is need needed is his records from Kew, if he was discharged prior to 1913...Though 6yrs with the colours and 6yrs on the reserve, he may well have been called back for WW1....
Title: Re: photo help/ added second pic
Post by: scrimnet on Friday 23 January 09 19:16 GMT (UK)
Right oh...After actually OPENING the pic  ::) ::) ::) ::)

I reckon that the rifle he has is a Lee-Enfield MK1* (Magazine, Lee Enfield) in use to 1902 in some areas,longer esp India I expect, or even in training...

I can't see a charger bar on it, so that would rule out the Lee-Enfield "Charger Loading Lee-Enfield" (CLLE), and the magazine is too short for the Lee-Metford MkI and the sticky out bit below the barrel is too short for the Lee-Metford MkII


Pedants of the world unite!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: photo help/ added second pic
Post by: joseph clarke on Friday 23 January 09 22:57 GMT (UK)
hello,

thank you to all,the depth of knowledge on this site never ceases to amaze me!!
grandfather was born 25 DEC 1882 in London(bermondsey). i looked at my records again and he was in Calcutta so that match's also.

the 1911 has him in barracks awaiting discharge at alverstoke Hampshire( he was married shortly after his discharge).

how would i go about getting his records from kew?

where are the good conduct chevrons on his uniform? please excuse my  lack of knowledge but what is a coy,trg,
and puttees?

i have one other question,the mounted photo on his left forearm there are crossed insignia?? does anyone know what they are?

once again thank you,  :)

Eric
Title: Re: photo help/ added second pic
Post by: scrimnet on Friday 23 January 09 23:36 GMT (UK)
hello,

thank you to all,the depth of knowledge on this site never ceases to amaze me!!

You are to kind to us all.....


grandfather was born 25 DEC 1882 in London(bermondsey). i looked at my records again and he was in Calcutta so that match's also.

the 1911 has him in barracks awaiting discharge at alverstoke Hampshire( he was married shortly after his discharge).

how would i go about getting his records from kew?

It is a manual search in WO97 at Kew...Through the boxes...They are  alphabetical so quite easy and you have his Regt!!

where are the good conduct chevrons on his uniform? please excuse my  lack of knowledge but what is a coy,trg,
and puttees?

The GCC are at the bottom of his left arm on his whites, one for each 3yrs unblemished service (or undetected crime!! 8) )

coy = Company
trg = Training
Puttees are the bandage like things wound at the bottom of his trousers and at the top of his boots!


i have one other question,the mounted photo on his left forearm there are crossed insignia?? does anyone know what they are?

Crossed rifles...Marksman

once again thank you,  :)

No probs mate...We enjoy it!

Eric