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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: osborn on Monday 19 January 09 04:01 GMT (UK)
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I have purchased the 1911 census copy which gives these details:
Joseph BAPTIST. Head,32. M. Coachman (travellers) Bishopsgate St.
Emma BAPTIST, Wife, 43, M, 10 yr., Tower Hill.
Fred BAPTIST, Son, 9, Pimlico.
Rooms two. 21/2 Block Sutton Street.
Also I have a copy of the marriage certificate:
28 Oct. 1906 - Joseph BAPTIST,30, bachelor, postal servant, 21/22 block sutton Street, Goswell Road. (Father) Joseph BAPTIST dec. Law Printer.
Emma EVELEIGH, 34, spinster, 18/22 block sutton st. Goswell Road, (Father John EVERLEIGH, Pensioner.
Witnesses - Charles WALKER and Elizabeth BAPTIST.
There are discrepencies in the ages, but maybe trans. errors??
Any census details would be appreciated. Osborn???
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Hi Osborn :)
This looks like him in 1901:
RG13/249/112/41
22 in 23 Little Sutton St, Clerkenwell, London
Elizabeth BAPTISTE Head Widow 50 Book folder Worker London, Southwark
Joseph BAPTISTE Son Single 21 Mail Driver Worker London, Bishopsgate
Frances HOWES[?] Sister Married 48 Laundress Worker London, Southwark
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Can't find him or his mum on any previous census ???
Maybe someone else iwll have more luck :-\
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Thank you PrueM - I need all the help I can get!! Osborn
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1881 as requested - doesn't look like the same family to me:
RG11/0134/114/47
33 Union St, London
James F. BAPTIST Head age 43 Painter Lambeth
Elizabeth Wife age 42 Bloomsbury
Elizabeth Daughter age 15 Errand girl St Pancras
James J. Son age 12 Errand boy St Pancras
William Son age 8 Scholar St Pancras
John J. Son age 5 Scholar St Pancras
Maria Daughter age 3 St Pancras
Charlotte Daughter age 3 m Marylebone
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...as suspected, that family shows up in 1891 and 1901 and it's not the right lot of BAPTISTS. In 1901 the son John has moved to Newcastle and is a Painter. Happy to post transcriptions if you want them.
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That would be lovely of you. I am finding this a difficult family to trace!!!
Osborn
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Hi Osborn,
So which Baptist family did you want to trace? The fellow you originally mentioned (the postal service driver) is obviously not the same as the one I've found who was a painter - I don't mind getting the census info for you for the painter, but if he's not yours I would be sending you down the wrong track!
If the postal worker is your man, we would be better off trying to find him in the census.
Prue :)
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A possibility in 1871:
RG10/311
3 Banks Court, Finsbury
Joseph Baptist, 23, printer painter
Ellen Baptist, 21, book binder
No places of birth given for either.
Might fit with:
Marriage Dec 1869 Lambeth
Joseph Baptist
Elizabeth Fowler (one of two possible brides).
Death Mar 1901 London C
Joseph Baptiste aged 54
Richard
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Joseph appears to have been born in Lambeth:
1861 RG9/350
1 Providence Place, Lambeth
Joseph Baptist, 43, musician, b London
Margaret Baptist, 39, b Lambeth
Joseph Baptist, 13, colour printer, b Lambeth
Francis Baptist, 10, b Lambeth
Elizabeth Baptist, 5, b Lambeth
Richard
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The Baptist/Fowler looks more likely:
RG9/349 1861
2 Little Charlotte Place
James Fowler, 35, boot closer
Martha Fowler, 32, b Hammersmith
Elizabeth Fowler, 10, dau
Francis Fowler, 7, dau
Lucy Fowler, 5, dau
James Fowler, 3, son
John Fowler, 1, son all rest b Southwark
Right names but odd place:
Marriage Mar 1878 Birmingham
Nathaniel Frederick Howes
Frances Fowler
(probably not the same family: there is another Frances Fowler in he area)
Richard
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Hi Richard
Dont want to chuck a spanner in the works here but Im sure the 1871 image says that Joseph is a painter and not a printer... ;) ;)
Jane
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Have you seen this entry in the 1881 cencus..its a bit dodgy and doesnt make a lot of sense but yer just never know ??? ???
RG11/135/18/29
Jane
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Thank you all so much for all the info. - this is what I can make out so far...
Joseph BAPTIST b. abt 1808 Lambeth. (dont know Father or Mother)
married Margaret [(maiden name?)
died (year??)[
children from marriage - Joseph b. 1848, Francis b. 1841, Elizabeth b. 1846
Joseph BAPTIST b. 1848 (father: Joseph. Mother: Margaret)
married Elizabeth FOWLER 1869. Lambeth
died March 1901, London C.
Children from marriage - Joseph b. 1879
Joseph BAPTIST b. 1879 (father: Joseph . Mother: Elizabeth)
married Emma EVELEIGH . b. 1868. Tower Hill
children from marriage - Frederick James b. 1902. Pimlico, London.
There is a Joseph James BAPTIST b. Oct/Nov/Dec 1880 (vol.1c. Pge 7) in Anc*****, but I cannot get vision or print of the actual document (??)
Did the names Ellen and Elizabeth interchange in the 1800s?
Where is Finsbury?
In 1871 census RG10/311 - I would have thought that maybe a "printer" would have had more to do with a "book binder" than a painter would - just a thought...what are your thoughts?
If you can read through this and help me sort things out I will be ever so happy (and I guess YOU will be also!)
Osborn
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Hi Richard
Dont want to chuck a spanner in the works here but Im sure the 1871 image says that Joseph is a painter and not a printer... ;) ;)
Jane
I agree - the a in painter is quite different from the "r"s on the page, which have a definite loop and flat top...here's the image:
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Osborn - it might be worth spending a few quid on a possible birth cert for your Joseph:
Dec 1880, London City, Vol 1c, Page 7
BAPTIST Joseph James
This would fit with his age and birthplace on the 1901 census.
Prue :)
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I agree that it says 'painter' - indeed I read it as that when I first saw it, so don't know why I wrote printer. That's why I suggested it as a possibility rather than likely.
I still think it is a possibility: his wife in 1901 is the right age, has an occupation linked to books, and may have been called Elizabeth elsewhere. A Joseph Baptist (an unusual name) was a printer when 13; probably married an Elizabeth Fowler; and Elizabeth/Frances Fowler sisters are the right age, born in the right place in the 1861 census.
Richard
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Wow, I'm getting really confused now ??? (nothing new there!)
Let me get this straight:
In 1911 we have
Joseph BAPTIST. Head,32. M. Coachman (travellers) Bishopsgate St.
Emma BAPTIST, Wife, 43, M, 10 yr., Tower Hill.
Fred BAPTIST, Son, 9, Pimlico.
at 21/2 Block Sutton Street.
Working backwards, in 1901 we found
22 in 23 Little Sutton St, Clerkenwell, London
Elizabeth BAPTISTE Head Widow 50 Book folder Worker London, Southwark
Joseph BAPTISTE Son Single 21 Mail Driver Worker London, Bishopsgate
Frances HOWES[?] Sister Married 48 Laundress Worker London, Southwark
Backwards again, we have so far got no potential candidates for 1891 or 1881 for Joseph.
We do have possible parents in various years but none that seem to match 100%.
I think rather than working forwards from a marriage for people who may or may not be Joseph's parents, it would be better for Osborn to buy the birth cert for the Joseph James BAPTIST in 1880 to try to confirm parents that way (sorry Osborn, when I suggested this earlier I didn't notice you'd already found the ref for that cert).
Cheers
Prue
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Let me get this straight:
In 1911 we have
Joseph BAPTIST. Head,32. M. Coachman (travellers) Bishopsgate St.
Emma BAPTIST, Wife, 43, M, 10 yr., Tower Hill.
Fred BAPTIST, Son, 9, Pimlico.
at 21/2 Block Sutton Street.
Working backwards, in 1901 we found
22 in 23 Little Sutton St, Clerkenwell, London
Elizabeth BAPTISTE Head Widow 50 Book folder Worker London, Southwark
Joseph BAPTISTE Son Single 21 Mail Driver Worker London, Bishopsgate
Frances HOWES[?] Sister Married 48 Laundress Worker London, Southwark
I think rather than working forwards from a marriage for people who may or may not be Joseph's parents, it would be better for Osborn to buy the birth cert for the Joseph James BAPTIST in 1880 to try to confirm parents that way (sorry Osborn, when I suggested this earlier I didn't notice you'd already found the ref for that cert).
Prue
We also have a marriage certificate that gives Joseph, deceased, printer, as Joseph's father; but the birth certificate is clearly sensible as it will give his mother's maiden name.
Richard
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Thank you all for your help. It looks as though I will have to apply for Josephs birth certificate as you suggest.
Osborn ::)
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I think that's the best option in light of the confusion with names etc...let us know when you get it!
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...and while we are waiting, this is Joseph's brother in 1871:
RG10/656 (indexed under HAPHOT!?)
Joseph Baptist, 69 (!), musician
Margaret Baptist, 49
Francis Baptist, 21, printer (out of employ) - I think!
Elizabeth Baptist, 21, bookbinder box maker (died Mar 1879)
By 1881 (RG11/588 under Baptish) he had become a box maker; still living with his parents.
Richard
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Wow, good find Richard!! HAPHOT?! I know the writing is a bit awkward to read, but really... ::) ::) ::)
I think you're right about Francis's job description, but Elizabeth is a Box Maker, not a bookbinder.
Prue :)
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Um, yes. I've clearly lost it.
R
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WOW!! How cool are you guys for finding that - keep up the good work.
Osborn 8)
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I love it when most of the work has been done before:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,302209.0.html
Richard
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Darn - and on p.2 of that thread, there's a link to an earlier one:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,280927.0html
Osborn, you should really either continue with old threads, or at least post links to the old threads on any new one that you start, so that we know what's already been done. As it is it looks like a lot of what we have found on this thread has already been found by others, so we are just going around in circles.
Once you get Joseph James BAPTIST's birth certificate, post the info on THIS thread and we can go forward from there :)
Cheers
Prue
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Apologies - Harddrive packed up and had to instal a new one. Lost a lot of data that was not saved. Didn't realize that you kept old 07 information. I am researching too many families at once - should stick to just one at a time
Osborn :'(
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That's OK Osborn...just don't do it again! ;) ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D
Hint: if you want to find old postings of yours, just click on your "profile" button (at top of page) and then on "show the last posts of this rootschatter". All your previous postings will be listed there in chronological order. Click on the title of one to be taken to that thread :)
Cheers
Prue
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Thank you - I never knew that!! Osborn ;D
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Well, there you go - you learn something new every day ;) :)
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Well, here we go - I just received a copy of the birth cert. of Joseph James Baptist......
(Born) 26 October, 1880. 13 Windsor Street.
(Name) Joseph James
(sex) Boy
(Name father) Joseph Baptist
(Mother) Elizabeth Baptist formerly Fowler
(occ. of father) Litho Printer
(Informant) X the mark of Elizabeth Baptist, Mother, 13 Windsor Street.
(Registered) Sixth December, 1880
(Registrar) Wm (?) Bicknell
1880 birth in the sub-district of Sain Botolph in the City of London.
It is definately litho printer on the certificate copy. Osborn
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That's good news; the 1869 marriage certificate looks like the next purchase!
It also means that the 1861 Fowler census seems almost certain, and the 1861 Baptist census seems likely as it is in Lambeth as well. The 1869 marriage will confirm it.
I have looked at the 1881 census for 13 Windsor St (RG11/371/82/28) and there are several families living there, but none is the Baptist family.
Richard
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I haven't sent for that 1869 marriage cert. yet, BUT...
Could you please give me details of:
1891 England Census
Emma EVELEIGH, b. abt. 1861, Devon
residing in Devon in 1891
Spouse - Fredk. ? ???
There is also an Emma EVELEIGH b. 1873 Devon,and another born 1862 in Middlesex.
I have an Emma EVELEIGH marrying Joseph James BAPTIST in 1906.
Many thanks, Osborn
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Hi Osborn,
Emma is still in Devon in 1901, aged 44, married to Frederick aged 39.
Your Emma Eveleigh is shown as a spinster aged 34 on the marriage certificate to Joseph Baptist so I am pretty sure they are two different people.
Your Emma is a Lodger at 12 Westmoreland Place, London in 1901, born Tower Hill London ca. 1862, a general servant (domestic).
Prue
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I have sent away for the marriage cert. of joseph baptist and elizabeth fowler in 1869 and will advise you of any info. when it arrives.
I also sent for a birth cert. for a Frank Eveleigh born 1902. I may be clutching at straws here, but thought it was worth a try.
Osborn
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I have just received the copy of the marriage cert. of Joseph BAPTIST and Elizabeth FOWLER. Details are:
1869 at the Parish Church, Parish of St. Marys Lambeth, county of Surrey.
20th Oct, 1869.
Joseph BAPTIST Jnr. Full age, batchelor, Printer, Gloucester Road, Joseph Baptist (father), Musician.
Elizabeth FOWLER, full age, Spinster, Gloucester Road, James Fowler dec.(father) Boot closer.
Married in the Parish Church after Banns by John C. Wetherell(?). Curate.
Signed: Joseph Baptist Jnr. and Elizabeth Fowler
In the presence of: Ed. Powell and Ann Miles.
So where do I go from here? Do I now try to find the marriage date of Joseph BAPTIST and Margaret? They are the previous generation.
I also received the copy of the birth cert. for Frank Eveleigh, but he is no relation, so missed out there.
Osborn.
:D
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I'm glad it's all coming together.
What you do next depends on whether you want to push back or flesh out what you have. If it's the former, these will help:
1851 HO107/1570
32 Gloster St
Joseph Baptist, 30, musician, b St George's, Surrey
Margaret Baptist, 29, b Christchurch, Surrey
Francis Baptist, son, 9m, b Lambeth
1851 HO107/1570 (indexed under Candell)
1 Apollo Buildings, Lambeth
Francis Cundell, 61, bricklayer's labourer, b Richmond, Yorkshire
Elizabeth Cundell, 59, char woman, b Richmond, Yorkshire
Joseph Baptist, 3, g-son, b Lambeth
Margaret Cundell's birth in 1822 is on the IGI; I'll leave you to look up the details.
1841 HO107/1084/2
St George the Martyr, Southwark
Joseph Baptist, 20, musician, Yes
Unfortunately he is lodging, so no sign of parents. There are Baptists in the area including:
HO107/1057/5 Lambeth
John Baptist, 50, musician, Yes
And lastly the fun part:
Marriage
Jun 1842 Lambeth
Margaret CUNDLE
John Baptist DeLAIN ??!!
(There are other names, but the juxtaposition of Cundle/Baptist/Lambeth at the right time can't be a co-incidence).
One possible explanation for his name is that he was born the illegitimate son of Miss DeLain before she married his father Mr Baptist. Alternatively he changed his name: Jean-Baptiste Delain is quite a common name on the continent.
No prizes for guessing which certificate is the next one to buy!
Richard
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This is wonderful Richard - I have just sent for the marriage cert. of Baptist Delain and Cundle so will have to await this one.
I STILL cannot find trace of the birth cert. for Frederick James BAPTIST, b.1902, Pimlico, London. (the one that started all this research!!) Any ideas here?
Anyway, thank you so much and I will be in touch when this next cert. arrives. Osborn ;D
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I have just looked through your other posts and I'm not sure how you know that Frederick James Baptist is the son of Joseph and Emma (nee Eveleigh) Baptist, as you are still looking for Frederick's birth certificate.
Does Frederick name Joseph on his marriage certificate (anyway not a proof)? Looking at the dates (Fred b 1902; Joseph m Emma 1906) it would seem more likely that Fred was Joseph's stepson.
What is the first reference to Frederick James Baptist?
Before going even further back it would seem important to find Fred's birth certificate.
(As an aside I think Emma was being a little economical with the truth over her age. In earlier censuses (RG10/526; RG11/116; RG12/467; RG13/88) her age is consistent with her birth in Sep 1861. Her father, John, was a soldier in 1861).
Richard
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Hi Richard - in reply to your questions
i. On Frederick JAMES Baptist mariage cert. his father is also named as Frederick James Baptist (and not Joseph) His mother is named as Emma Eveleigh. The marriage was in Australia in 1927.
ii. The copy of the 1911 England Census lists JOSEPH Baptist as father, Emma Baptist as mother and Fred Baptist as son, age 9. b. Pimlico.
iii. I have searched for Frederick James Baptist birth under different variations e.g. Frederick James; Frederick James Baptist; Frederick Eveleigh.
I do have a copy of the marriage cert. of Joseph Baptist and Emma Eveleigh dated 1906.
I also have a photocopy of a "Certificate of Identity" dated 1923 for Frederick James Baptist when he sailed to Australia. I don't know whether this needed a birth cert. to obtain? And where would I go to follow this up?
We always knew my father-in-law as Frederick James Baptist and none of his children know otherwise......
Now, about Emma Eveleigh - She lists her birthplace on the 1911 Census as Tower Hill and her age as either 43 or 48 (smudged). On her marriage cert. dated 1906, she lists her age at 34. Her father as John Eveleigh, pensioner.
I haven't gone any further with her. Could you let me know the details of the census you quoted in your last post please?!! I did find Eveleighs in Devon, but here John Eveleigh married a Sarah A. and not an Elizabeth as the 1881 census shows, so I don't think they are the ones. I didn't know John Eveleigh was a soldier in 1861 either.
Osborn
::)
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Hi Osborn,
Good to see you're making progress on the Baptists! :D
Re. Emma Eveleigh, see below my earlier post with Emma in 1901. Hope that's helpful to you.
Cheers
Prue
Hi Osborn,
Emma is still in Devon in 1901, aged 44, married to Frederick aged 39.
Your Emma Eveleigh is shown as a spinster aged 34 on the marriage certificate to Joseph Baptist so I am pretty sure they are two different people.
Your Emma is a Lodger at 12 Westmoreland Place, London in 1901, born Tower Hill London ca. 1862, a general servant (domestic).
Prue
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Thanks Prue - Yes I still have your info. thank you. I am finding this family very difficult, but will press on with all your wonderful help.....
Osborn ???
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Thanks to Richard for the refs :D
1891 (RG12/467/22/38)
19 Maud Rd, Camberwell
John EVELEIGH, Head, Widower, 59. Porter at St Geo. Hospital, b. Devonshire, Woodbury
Emma EVELEIGH, Daur, S, 29, b. Middlesex, London
ADDED:
1881 (RG11/116/13/19)
121 Lillington St, St John the Evangelist, Westminster
John EVELEIGH, Head, M, 49. Porter, b. Devon, Woodbury
Elizabeth, Wife, M, 48. b. Devon, Erynse? Morehead
Emma EVELEIGH, Daur, S, 19, no occupation, b. London
Eliza, Daur, S, 15, Milliner, b. London
ADDED:
1871 (RG10/526/41/18)
Tower of London (!), St Botolph without Aldgate
John EVELEIGH, Head, M, 39. Soldier, b. Exmouth, Devon
Elizabeth, Wife, M, 38. Wife of above, b. Exeter, Devon
Elizabeth, Daur, 11. Scholar, b. London, Middlesex
Emma, Daur, 10, Scholar, b. London, Middlesex
Sarah, Daur, 7, Scholar, b. London, Middlesex
Eliza, Daur, 5, Scholar, b. London, Middlesex
ADDED:
1861 (RG9/274/40 & 41/12 & 13)
17 Queen St, St Botolph without Aldgate
John EVELEIGH, Head, M, 28. Soldier Coldstream Guards, b. Woodbourn, Devon
Elizabeth, Wife, M, 27, b. Cruysmorehead?, Devon
Elizabeth A, Daur, 1, b. Marylebone, Middlesex
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OK...Elizabeth COBLEY (Mrs John Eveleigh) was born Cruwys Morchard, Devon.
There's a possible marriage showing on FreeBMD for Elizabeth COBLEY and John EVELEIGH: March qtr, Marylebone Vol 1a, p 597.
I can see what I think might be Elizabeth in 1851, in Washford Pyne with her parents JOhn and Mary, and siblings Emma, John and Mary. If you'd like the details I can get those for you.
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Thanks to both of you for so much help. Yes, I would like to have the 1851 details also thank you.
I did come across another EVELEIGH family in Devon, but the wife was Sarah and they were in Ottery St. Mary Devon, so I think they are not my lot.
Re Richards thought that my Frederick James BAPTIST may have been the stepson of James Joseph BAPTIST and maybe NOT the son of Emma, does this mean that perhaps James Joseph BAPTIST may have been married before he married Emma????
I noticed on the 1881 census that Emma, although 19, is listed as "no occupation" whilst her younger sister, Eliza, who was only 15 is a milliner. Would this be common to have the eldest child not working?
I seem to be going around in circles...... OsbornD
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Hi Osborn
In your message of 23 March you mentioned a birth certificate for Frank Eveleigh.
Was his father by any chance Charles William Eveleigh?
Thanks, Paul.
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Hi Paul, The father of Frank was James Eveleigh and the mother was Johanna Eveleigh (nee Shea).
If this is of any help to you I can post you the certificate.
Osborn ???
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Thanks very much, Osborn, for your kind offer. :D
This Frank is from the wrong family, though - I haven't got a James Eveleigh at all - so the certificate wouldn't help.
Paul
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Hi Paul - Sorry that the certificate was of no use. I will keep it in case it ever is of use to someone!
I have an Eveleigh in my family tree.......
Emma Eveleigh, b. abt. 1862 in London. Father John, Mother Elizabeth.
married Joseph BAPTIST in 1906.
If you have any info. re this Eveleigh I would love to hear from you again.
Osborn.
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Hi Osborn, Sorry again, but we don't seem to have a match.
I have a John Eveleigh b abt 1829 in Ottery St Mary, Devon. I thought he might possibly have been the father but, on tracing him through several censuses it turned out that he married an Ellen, moved to Newport, Monmouthshire and there is no sign of a daughter called Emma.
My direct ancestors did move from Devon to London but I haven't found a John or an Emma amongst them.
We just have to keep on trying...!
Paul
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Thanks for that Paul - Osborn :'(
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I now have a copy of the death cert. of Emily Baptiste (We only heard of her as Emma Baptist).
On the cert. it states that there was an inquest held by the coroner for London on 6th February, 1917.
Is there any way I could get copies of the documents relating to this inquest?
Any help appreciated. Osborn
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I now have a copy of the death cert. of Emily Baptiste (We only heard of her as Emma Baptist).
On the cert. it states that there was an inquest held by the coroner for London on 6th February, 1917.
Is there any way I could get copies of the documents relating to this inquest?
Any help appreciated. Osborn
I cannot seem to find my original post, so I will try again.....are more details required?
Osborn
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The London Metroplitan Archives holds a number of records for inquests but, without looking, I have no idea whether they hold the ones you want.
Richard
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Thanks Richard. Where do I go from here - do they accept questions/requests by letter or online and do you know if they will send copies of inquests held in 1917 ? I have never dealt with them befpre.
Osborn???
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They do have a research dept that will look things up for you (for a fee, although they will tell you what they have for nothing). If you can get there yourself, you don't need to book and they are very quick at producing documents. Alternatively I can give you the name of a researcher I have used who is good and charges reasonable rates.
I suggest you contact them and ask them what they have:
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/LGNL_Services/Leisure_and_culture/Records_and_archives/
Did you ever buy the Margaret Cundle/John Baptist DeLain marriage certificate in Jun 1842?
If not, I can tell you that John Baptist De Lain is described as a musician, so it is the same person, and his father was Ambrose Baptist De Lain (deceased), also a musician.
Ambrose Baptist Dolan died at Waterloo Road in Lambeth in 1832 aged 50.
Richard
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Hi Richard - What a great web site you have given me . I will certainly contact them with my query.
Yes, I did buy the marriage cert. mentioned. I did not have the info. you gave re Ambrose Baptist Dolan . Thanks for that also. Would you be able to find any further info. re said Ambrose Baptist DOLAN?? There are SO many different variations of the surname spelling!!
Osborn :D
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I haven't seen anything else about Ambrose Baptist Delane/Dolan.
On the assumption that the Joseph Baptiste, musician, who married a Margaret Cundle some time before 1847/8 is the same as the John Baptist Delain, musician, who married Margaret Cundle in 1842 (and I have found a Jane d Joseph & Margaret, musician, b 1843 Lambeth which adds to the case), the top of your tree now looks like:
John/Joseph Baptiste/Delain, musician, bc1818 son of Ambrose Baptist Delane, musician (c1782-1832).
I can't believe this family isn't connected:
1837 Charlotte and Elizabeth baptised, daughters of John and Charlotte Baptiste Delane, musician of Pleasant Row, Newington
1842 Joseph John Baptist Delane baptised, son of John and Charlotte Delane, showman of Thurlow Place, Newington
1841 Newington HO107/1064/4
John Baptist, 45, hawker, N
Charlotte B, 35, Y
Rose B, 18, Y
Charlotte B, 11, Y
Elizabeth B, 8, Y
Rebecca B, 6, Y
Sarah B, 2, Y
1852 marriage Waterloo
Thomas Poniah Watkins, musician, son of Poniah Watkins, musician
Elizabeth Washbrook Baptiste Delaine, minor, dau of John Baptist Delaine, musician.
They were living in Waterloo Road (see post about Ambrose's death above).
I also came across this chap:
Buried 1831
Lewis Baptist deLane, aged 58, of Justin St, Lambeth
I will look for the above family in later censuses to find a clue as to where they came from, but my guess remains France with John, Lewis, Baptist really Jean , Louis, Baptiste, etc
Richard
Added later: I suspect they are the Baptist family living in Lambeth in 1861 (RG9/342: John, 60; Shorbet, 58; Rosina, 30; Charlotte, 28; Betsey, 27; Rebecca, 25; Joseph, 21; S(a)r(ah), 20?) with some of the daughters married but retaining their surname. If so, all births are 'London' and he has become a bootmaker, so it doesn't help much.
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Hi Richard - While I try and digest all the info. you have supplied I have sent away for the death cert. of Joseph J. Baptiste (b. 1880 St. Botolph London). Maybe this will throw some light on the family....here's hoping!
I still cannot find the above Baptist/e in the 1881 census nor in the 1891 census....any ideas???
Osborn
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Hi Richard - I have just received the copy of the death cert. of Joseph John Baptiste, died 1923, 56y.o. occup. house breaker (master)!!!!! I am sure they mean HORSE breaker....the informant was Susan B. Baptiste, sister-in-law.
I am still searching through all "my" Baptist/es, but I cannot find any of them marrying a Susan. I think I may be on the wrong track with this one..
Osborn.
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Dec 1907 Croydon
Susan Blanche White
Harry Baptiste
They appear together in the 1911 census; he is 41, she is 32.
There is a Harry Baptiste, 10, in the 1881 census with a brother Joseph W, 15; but I haven't looked very hard.
The following are all registered as children of Joseph and Hannah Baptist, labourer of Newington:
Thomas (Apr 1867); Daniel William (Aug 1869); Harry (Jun 1871)
Richard
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Richard - I have today received a copy of the birth cert. of EMMA EVELEIGH (mother of FREDERICK JAMES BAPTIST) She was born on 10th June, 1861. She did tend to "change" her age on different occasions. Her mother and father are as we found.
Osborn
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Is it possible to find a birth knowing only the mother's name, the date and the town?
I am still trying to find Fred Baptist's birth cert. I only have the 1911 census details to go on.
Osborn
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The answer is that you can find a birth knowing just that, but how certain are you about what you do have?
As far as I know you have the 1911 entry where he is Fred Baptist, 9, b Pimlico. Although described as Joseph's son, it is just as likely that he is a stepson as Joseph and Emma didn't marry until 1906.
You also have a marriage certificate where he is described as Frederick James Baptist, son of Frederick James Baptist and Emma Eveleigh. Again, marriage certificates are unreliable and an illegitimate child often makes up a father's name. I can find no mention of a Frederick James Baptist in any of the London baptism/marriage/death records which adds fuel to the idea that Fred jr was illegitimate.
The closest I can see is this:
Mar 1903 Fulham 1a 242
Fred John E Eveleigh
I can't actually find this on the London records to see who the parents were.
Richard
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I have been going over and over the same info. and came up with the same idea that Fred was illegitimate. HOWEVER, would you think I may find out SOME info. if I bought the Fred John E Eveleigh birth cert?? Please advise....
I would be willing to keep the history of his stepfather as his, as that would have been the only family he would have known.
This has been a frustrating project...... Osborn.
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First you will have to decide whether it is the right person. Pimlico is close to, but not in, Fulham; 'Fred John E' is not the same as 'Frederick James'; and someone born in that quarter would have been 8 in 1911 not 9. However, I don't think there are any other strong candidates for Fred John E Eveleigh on the 1911 census.
Even if it is the right person the certificate will almost definitely not name the father (and, since they didn't marry until 1906, Joseph is unlikely to be the father anyway). What it might do is confirm that Fred is the illegitimate son of Emma. I'm not an expert on Bastardy Recognizances, but I think 1906 is well past the date when they existed, and the magistrate records have probably been destroyed, so there is no way back there either.
Richard
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Well, I think I will have to "bite the bullet" and send for the birth cert. I know that I may be wasting money, but I cannot see any other way around it.
Osborn
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Well, I have just received the birth cert. for Fred J. E. Eveleigh and it is not the person I was after (again!)
If anyone is after info. re this person with father Richard and mother Fannie I can email the birth cert to you.
I am not sure what to do now - should I just try and "flesh out" what I have and just accept that Frederick James Baptist has only known Joseph Baptist as his father but make a note of the fact that we cannot find a birth cert. for Frederick????
Any advice would be appreciated. Osborn.
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I think Fred's baptism/birth doesn't want to be found.
In 1901 Emma is living in St George Hanover Square (ie Pimlico) and the 1911 census states that Fred was born in Pimlico in 1901/2.
In 1901 she is living with the Weeks family, who have lots of sons, and there is someone called Fred Ingram, 16 also boarding there. The co-incidence of names is probably just that; but I can't find any Freds baptised in Westminster in 1901/2 with mother Emma that have surnames anything like Eveleigh/Ingram.
Richard
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Thanks for that Richard. What do you suggest I do now? Will I just accept that Fred only knew Joseph as his father/stepfather or can you suggest ANYTHING else I should do????
Osborn
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I can't suggest anything more except putting up a separate posting aimed at establishing whether Emma was Fred's mother, as this is very long and may put people off reading it.
You may then find that some of the London experts, such a Valda, have something to add.
I'll send you a PM.
Richard
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Thanks for that Richard - I will do as you suggest and see how we go.....it certainly has been a LONG struggle!!
Osborn