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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: BougoisSearch on Sunday 18 January 09 03:57 GMT (UK)
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Hi. I am doing ok for a beginner I think with most of my family, but my Grannie's Dad is a mystery, to her as well. His name is as the thread title - Victor Freeman Barkell Bougouis. I found a BMD entry for his birth in 1896, and ordered his birth certificate, but it hasn't come yet. Also after talking to my Gran, she's not sure it will help as she knows he saw his birth certificate eventually (because it led to his realisation he'd celebrated the wrong birthday for years!) but she doesn't think he knew much about his own parents. I got his admiralty file from the National Archives which says 23 July 1896 as his birth year, but we don't know if that was his accurate or misremembered date, and also there was a rumour he lied about his age at some point in order to 'join up'...
Anyway, I have been hitting brick walls searching for Bougouis... he was born in Plymouth according to the BMD, but Gran said something about the Channel Islands being possibly something to do with it too. Well, I found a few Bougois people on Guernsey from the 1891 census, and even some Bougaize from earlier than that, but nothing connects up at the moment. SO, I tried to go down the 'Freeman Barkell Bougouis' route. As they all sounded like surnames i started doing some searches for those names and Devon, and tried crossmatching them a bit... not much luck until I hit upon another thread for Devon talking about Barkells and Freemans, which all sounded really complicated, and in the middle there was a mention of a Victor Bourgeois, who died in 1896 (see 'help I'm so confused' which I just put a reply to in this Devon area, though the original convo started in 2007 - i found it on google!).
I'm wondering if my Victor is descended from whatever that messy tale was, and if so, is it possible that his existence might help clear that up a bit too?! We know he was in some kind of a home atsome point (we assume in the vicinity of Plymouth) because he ran away from one, as the story goes. I'm not having much luck with that aspect either - how would one look for entries into a home/orphanage? I found some names of orphanages in Plymouth but haven't found any way to search any records or indexes online!
I would really appreciate any help at all whatsoever that anyone could suggest with any aspect of this. My Grannie was Victor's youngest child (he married Winifred Harper in 1922, they had 3 girls: Dot, Elsie and Betty), and lived in Oreston, a small village near Plymouth. Grannie (Betty) was quite a bit younger than her sisters, so it is possible that is partly why she doesn't know much about it, but the general impression I get is that Victor had to struggle to get where he was and didn't like to talk about family history one little bit.
Over the years some family members have tried to trace people, but nothing seems to have worked - possibly because they are not computer-literate so their searches would be slower. I'll post back with any more info I get, and would love to hear from anyone else searching similar surnames in Devon, especially if they occur together in some combination! I have an additional problem that I live in Durham, which is like the exact opposite end of the country and no good for popping into archives etc in Devon... :-[
Thanks, and hope someone can help! I'll post back if I get more info!:)
Vicky
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Looks like a Rosetta Emily Barkell married Victor BOURGEOIS Jun. qtr. 1896 at Stoke Damerel, Devon - and that Victor BOURGEOUIS bc.1868 died Sept. qtr. 1896 Plymouth.
On 1901 Census (have got to go out so can't elaborate more right now but you might have this info. already) Victor appears as Barkell but Rosetta shows as his step-mother. This was only viewed on transcript so will delve further and check original later this evening when I return.
Intriguing this one!!
Annette
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I think Rosetta is definitely his mum, and it might refer to him being William Roberts' stepson? The dates (to me) make sense to say that Rosetta marrying Victor Bourgeouis in 1896 is right, though my mum has 'a feeling' it might not have been a lawful marriage... she also thinks that William Barkell (who Rosetta married first off in 1884) might have been a bigamist or otherwise fishy somehow. I'm having trouble tracing which William Barkell he might have been because there seem to have been a good few Barkells in the Devon area, AND mum just said to me on the phone that she has another 'funny feeling' that the Barkells were a well known family, but not necessarily in the precise area... and quite what they were well known for, I'm not sure! There also seem to be Barkells in Stoke Damerel (where the 1896 marriage was, but have been assuming that marriage was to Bourgeouis!). The *only* index record I could find for Victor Bourgeois is his death - I haven't found anything to try to confirm he was the one marrying Rosetta in 1896... think I will have to try to order up that marriage certificate!
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Sorry - you are right of course in that stepson relates to his relationship to William (I was doing it in a rush).
I think the Rosetta Emily Barkell/Victor Bourgeois marriage in 1896 has to be your Victor's parents. Cannot find any others with the name Bougois and suspect this was not the original spelling. Instinct dictates that the spelling of the name on the marriage certificate would be the correct one i.e. Bourgeois.
Think that with Victor maybe already dead by the time Victor junior's birth was registered plus of course Rosetta's re-marriage and name given then, that the subsequent registrars wrote what it sounded like. I agree that you really do need to get this marriage certificate and to hopefully then establish who Victor senior's father was.
Annette
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Me again
I hope if when you get the marriage certificate it states Victor's father was another Victor - if so, I think I may have found them on the census.
1881 - 1 2 3 4 5 Cottages in Rear 7 Charing Cross, St. Helier, Jersey
Victor Le Bourgeois 52 Carter b. France
Angelique Le Bourgeois 42 b. France
Victor Le Bourgeois 14 Blacksmiths apprentice b. St. Helier
Maria Le Bourgeois 12
Angelina Le Bourgeois 9
Alfred Le Bourgeois 6
Albert Le Bourgeois 3
RG11 - 5610 - 3 - 2
In 1891 Victor junior is no longer at home - haven't found him in Channel Islands or England. Victor seniors birthplace is Portbail, France, Angelique born Brehen, France. By 1901 looks like Victor senior is dead and wife Angelique is living with a married daughter Annie (now Keller).
Looked back to 1871 (Ref. RG10 - 5756 - 69 - 24) and the family have been transcribed as LE BEAVSHUE - children are Annie 6 born St. Lawrence, Jersey (obviously the one Angelique with in 1901), Victor 4 b. St. Peter, Jersey and Maria 2 b. St. Peter, Jersey.
If this is the correct family then looks like the family name was actually LE BOURGEOIS.
Annette
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Annette, I'm so touched you went to all this effort! Think I found a few of these Channel Islanders but hadn't managed to link them...but certainly looks possible. I'm going to be hopping about on hot bricks waiting for the certificates to check! All this has really affected me-I cried when I realised what a time of it Victor Jr & Rosetta seemed to have had, and I can't tell you what it'll mean to my gran even just to know who her dad's mum was. Thanks to everyone who's been helping -welling up again now!x
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You may already know this but there is a tree on Ancestry and Rootsweb for Rosetta Freeman and this shows that Rosetta died in 1902. That being so one can understand how Victor ended up in some kind of home and also why he didn't know his parents. With his father dying around the time of his birth and his mother when he was just 6 it explains alot. Presumably William Roberts wouldn't or couldn't care for his step-children.
Let us know (or PM me) when you get the certificates - interested to know how this pans out.
Annette
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Hi again,
I think that's Jess's tree, whose post in 2007 on this website is the one I found which led to me finding these links. Poor Rosetta had a rather eventful 40 years it seems! Jess's tree traces her parents back a bit further too, and apparently her other two children, Thomas and Rosetta jr Barkell, ended up with an uncle (who presumably didn't want to take in, or wasn't allowed to take in Victor - or Victor had already been put into care). Mum thinks Victor jr had a half brother who killed himself - might have been Thomas Barkell... going to try to find a record of his death too. Mum thinks he might have flung himself off a train of all things. She's going to get email addresses for her cousins who're older and might remember more of what their mums might have said (my Grannie's sisters).
I am not sure, but family rumours suggest, in combo with this recent info, that it might have been William Roberts (Rosetta's last husband) who mistreated (at least) Victor. Going to try to follow up a bit on him too... REALLY want those certs!! the website says they're despatched within about 4 days - do you know if it really is that quick? I hope so! Also, any idea on how to find records of children taken ito care? was there a central organisation who did this in the early 20thC, or would I have to look for orphanage records and hope for the best - can't seem to find any orphanage ones, all I've found is a bit of history of some Barnardos homes near Plymouth (no records) but most of them seem to have been in operation too late for this story.
I've also informed my brother he is going to have to get helping - at least he is in Somerset so he can start some tape recording of conversations with Gran for tidbits that could be clues!
Thanks so much again for your help and interest - I had known there was some sad stuff in my family history but I'd no idea how much so!
Vicky xx
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I'm afraid there was no central registration of children taken into care at that time and without knowing where he went seems an impossibly task.
Should be good news though re. the certificates. They say 4 days and generally they are nowadays - in fact, the last ones I ordered actually arrived on the day they said they'd be despatched so finger's crossed! I know the feeling when you are impatiently waiting.....
Annette
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That's what I feared re the care homes. I'm hoping talking about it with Gran and her sisters' daughters might jog a relevant memory. He definitely ran away from the home, so I think the story about the home must have been repeated a few times. When did you get into this family history/genealogy stuff? I've been doing it less than a week and I can already tell I'm addicted!
Vxx
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A week!!!! I've been researching since 1981 - this was pre-internet so research meant going to a record office and scouring fiche and film, no indexes. Took forever. I was brought up in my fathers home town - Ipswich -so needed Ipswich Record Office. However, I was married and lived in Essex then so my research was crammed into a Saturday once a month when we visited my parents. You could make a list of all you wanted to check, scan the records all day and come away with nothing! Most frustrating. Plus, to complicate things further alot of the early parish records are virtually unreadable. Nowadays it is so much easier, thank heavens.
My mother was Scottish and tracing that half of me was so difficult then but thanks to the internet have found out more in the past 5 years than the preceding 23!
Sounds like your interest stems from your grandmother and it was the same with me. Although she had died before I started researching I remembered all the chats we used to have about family - I was the only one of her grandchildren who loved to listen to them. I have been involved in a One-Name Study of her maiden name - SCOPES - and like to think she'd be proud of what I have uncovered over the years. You are lucky that your Gran is happy to talk about her family so treasure it all.
It certainly is addictive but in a good way since you can find 'new' relatives, share information, receive information, and even make new friends. People on this site are generally very helpful and can often break down peoples 'brick walls'. Sometimes just reading the various posts can give you an insight into something you might not have considered. I like to visit at least once a day and scan through the 'unread' posts since my last visit. Sometimes something catches my eye (like yours) and I will help if I can. As you gain more experience you'll no doubt do the same in due course.
Annette
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Hurray!
The birth certificate for Victor Freeman Barkell Bougouis came! Sadly, owing to something to do with the poor quality of the original filmed record, it's just typed onto the cert (and I'm not sure if they've mistranscribed the name of the street for a start)... but it does reveal:
Victor Freeman Barkell Bougouis born 23rd November 1896 (reg'd 28th December 1896) - son of 'Victor Bougouis' (a coal porter) and 'Rosetta Bougouis, formerly Freeman', at 10 'Love Street' (think this might be Looe Street) in the Charles District of Plymouth (which covers Plymton St Mary as well I think... and is one of the many parts flattened by WW2 - think it's where a bombed out church still remains in the middle of a roundabout!)... so it looks as though this Victor (the dad) may well have been the one who had lived in Jersey and had French parents!
Also, my mum has since remembered that the place Victor jr ran away from was the farm he worked on (so the census entry with Victor Burgaise must have been him at 16 in 1911 when he was there 'tending cattle') because the farmer mistreated the animals very badly, which is when we thin he fibbed about his age and joined the navy (though amusingly he apparently also thought the wrong date was his 'real' birthdaythat he had fibbed about!
Going to try to trace more of this Victor-the-dad now I think, to see if can definitely link him to the Jersey family... and maybe try again with seeing if I can figure out where/how he went into care!
It's so exciting, and so good to see that what we thought probably true was correct! :-)
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Hi Vicky
Glad to hear that the birth certificate confirms things. Hopefully the marriage certificate will again confirm the apparent scenario and enable you to link to the Jersey family found.
Annette
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Hi again,
I think that's Jess's tree, whose post in 2007 on this website is the one I found which led to me finding these links. Poor Rosetta had a rather eventful 40 years it seems! Jess's tree traces her parents back a bit further too, and apparently her other two children, Thomas and Rosetta jr Barkell, ended up with an uncle (who presumably didn't want to take in, or wasn't allowed to take in Victor - or Victor had already been put into care). Mum thinks Victor jr had a half brother who killed himself - might have been Thomas Barkell...
Have sent you a PM but forgot to mention - No Thomas Barkell lived until 1940 so it wasn't him.
perhaps William Roberts had a son (a step brother rather than a half brother) that did?