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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Saturday 17 January 09 17:02 GMT (UK)
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Hi, Everyone.
Recently said I'd try and find out all I could about his grandmother for an elderly gentleman living down in Devon. But I never thought it would turn out as complicated as this...
So, his gran Ellen JOEL, who married a Harry Thomas THATCHER in 1898, can be seen as an 18 year-old servant in Upton cum Chalvey in the 1891 Census.
But in the 1881 Census, there she is with her apparent family, but their names list as follows:
Henry House, head
Makala House, his wife, followed by three children aged between 6 and 5 months, all with the HOUSE surname.
Then follows Joseph JOEL aged 19, brother; Thomas JOEL aged 12, brother; and then appears Ellen JOEL, aged 8, sister... Census ref: RG11/ 1460
Now, I realise that these last three individuals could possibly be siblings of Makala, the wife. But when I searched for a marriage between a Henry HOUSE and someone called Makala in the area, the only one I could come up with was a Henry James HOUSE marrying a Zilpah Sophia HESTER in the Eton registration district in Dec. quarter vol 3a page 755...
The family legend is that Ellen JOEL may have been from a Jewish family, so is there something I should know about the way Jewish families name their individual members. In fact, are any of these forenames I have quoted Jewish in origin.
Totally confused, any suggestions...?
keith
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Hi Keith,
From the IGI:
Christening:
Ellen Joel 11 Aug 1872, Upton cum Chalvey, Bucks
Parents: Joseph Joel & Martha
An extracted record
Also from FreeBMD:
Births:
Ellen Joel SepQ 1872 Eton 3a 463
Nanny Jan
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RG10; Piece: 1401; Folio: 125; Page: 52
This is the 1871 census for Joseph & Thomas
Doesn't solve the mystery of why they were living with HOUSE, but it does show the parents were :)
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Here's Thomas from the IGI:
Christening:
Thomas Alfred Joel 17 Nov 1868 Upton cum Chalvey, Bucks
Parents: Joseph Joel & Martha
Also Martha 5 May 1870
William 17 May 1870 both at Upton cum Chalvey
Nanny Jan
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although some of the names may be typically Jewish, (ie Joseph, Rebecca...) if they were christened, they wouldn't have been Jewish, at least not practising!
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A clue?
Marriage:
Joseph Joel Dec 1852 Staines 3a 15 (From FreeBMD)
possible bride: Martha House
Nanny Jan
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Ladies! Nanny Jan and Daisy Loo,
You're both wonderful! And that last post surely must contain the clue to why Ellen and siblings were in the HOUSE household (so to speak). I've got to pop out for a couple of hours, but I'll be back to chew things over with you later.
Very many thanks,
keith
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Right, I've had time to take a long cool look at this, and after the marriage in Dec quar. 1852 between Joseph JOEL (son of a James JOEL and a Sarah in the 1841 Census in Stanwell, Mx) and a Martha HOUSE, these children were produced: Henry JOEL b. 1852; Rebecca JOEL b. 1856; Joseph JOEL in 1862; Thomas JOEL in 1869; and Ellen JOEL in 1873.
So, it looks as though by the 1881 Census that the individual baptised as Henry JOEL is calling himself Henry HOUSE, and that Joseph, Thomas and Ellen are indeed his brothers and sister, but still using their JOEL name.
Have I read somewhere that Jewish people sometimes take on their mother's surname, or am I completely going mad here...?
keith
p.s. The other possibility I've just noticed is perhaps that Henry, b. 1852 might have already been born to his mother Martha HOUSE before Joseph and Martha were married in late 1852, and may already have taken his mother's name...
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There are very big gaps between the children aren't there!
I don't know about taking on the surname of the mother, but certainly children are Jewish from their mother. Ie, if a Jewish woman married a non-Jewish man, the children would be Jewish, whereas if a Jewish man married a non Jewish woman, they would not be. Martha is certainly not a Jewish name per se...it comes from the New Testament.
Nothing about the namess really rings any Jewish bells but who knows they could have changed them.
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I am just wondering if the first lady was named Maacah I have several girls with this name in one family line and often they have been listed as Martha or by some strange spelling. My oldest Maacah was married to a Parish Clerk so definitely not Jewish.
Trees
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A certificate or two might help solve this! ;)
Nanny Jan
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Daisy,
At this moment I'm only taking the children's birth years from the respective Censuses, so there could well have been more births and perhaps deaths in infancy.
That Makala (as I have interpreted it in the 1881 Census) is indeed an unusual forename, Trees, and I am by no means certain of its accuracy.
And Nanny Jan, a certificate or two would certainly solve one or two conundrums here, but I'm not sure whether the elderly gentleman in Devon would be willing to stump up all that extra money...
What puzzles me as well is that I cannot get a sighting of this JOEL family in the 1861 Census, either,
keith
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Hi Keith and others: From FreeBMD. Marriage of Henry House Joel (both names in the entry) and Mahalah Griggs June qtr 1873 Eton Vol. 3a Pg 629
Looks like the 1881 census enumerator may have neglected to write Henry House Joel's full name. Or he was in the process of changing his name?
Family Search's 1881 British census has spelling Mahala.
Also from FreeBMD
Mahala Griggs
born Mar qtr 1853 in Bishops Stortford
vol. 3a pa 169
Henry Joel
born Sep qtr 1851 in Brentford
vol. 3 pg 1
Henry Francis Joel
born Mar qtr 1851 in St Pancras
vol. 1 pg 365
I live in a "little" town at GMT minus 5 where people like to land very large aeroplanes in the middle of rivers on the coldest day of the year, so I'm not up on the exact birth locations of the two Henry Joels. Of course I know that St. Pancras is in London, and we have a church of the same name over here, not far from where I live. I've heard this church's name pronounced as St. Pancreas (the hymns are played on an internal organ--har de har har). So I would favor that Henry Joel if not for the middle name of Francis that goes with it. I vote for Henry Joel born Sep qtr 1851. He would still be 29 on census night/day in 1881.
There was an Alfred Henry Joel born in 1853, but no Henry Joels born 1852.
Rebecca Joel born Alverstoke Jun qtr 1857
Hope this helps,
John :o :o :o
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Hello again--and so soon: I might be just confused here, but I may have to rescind my vote for the Henry Joel born Sep qtr 1851 and without the middle name Francis as the Henry Joel being sought.
I re-read the entire thread and decided to check the IGI for Henry Joel births. The only IGI birth is Henry Francis Joel, and he is listed as the son of a John Joel (note John) and Martha (no surname). But when I checked FreeBMD for the marriage of John Joel, only one in Rotherham and one in Sheffield were returned in the Sep 1850 and Dec 1850 qtrs, respectively, were returned, and neither of those was to a Martha House
Perhaps Henry Joel was born out of wedlock. He must have been FreeBMD if is correct about Joseph Joel and Martha House marrying in 1852 and Henry being born in 1851. That might also explain why he used House in the 1881 census. Wouldn't it?
Edit: Keith: I read the thread a third time and noticed that you also thought Henry might have been born out of wedlock. Not a case of my plagiarizing you, but a case of great minds thinking alike. ;)
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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possible birth reg for Henry?
Henry House march qtr 1852 Uxbridge vol 3a pg 11
Uxbridge covered Hillingdon which was given as his place of birth on 1871 census.
:-\
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John,
Congratulations on a splendid piece of detective work from - can't quite work out from where in the world you might be!
Anyway, that 1873 marriage for a Henry House JOEL and a Makala GRIGGS looks exactly the right one. I wonder what the origin of her forename is then, might it be biblical; it doesn't appear in my Oxford Names Companion.
I think the 1852 Dec quarter marriage between a Henry JOEL and a Martha HOUSE in the Staines Reg. district must be the correct one too for this family.
And I think that the likelihood that Martha had Henry before that marriage took place, is the best theory at the moment.
But I wonder under what strange mistranscription the family of parents Henry and Martha, and children Henry and Rebecca appear in the 1861 Census, somewhere in the area of Staines or possibly now Eton or Slough. Perhaps I need to do some Census walking with my fingers...
keith
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Osprey,
Sorry, posts crossing in the ether! This thread is being more finely tuned by the minute - that looks even more logical than the 1851 birth for a Henry JOEL in Brentford, for I would imagine it would be more likely that a child born out of wedlock to Martha would have been given her surname.
Now, can anyone find them in the 1861...?
Thanks so much for finding that,
keith
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transcribed as Jock ::)
1861 Dawley, Harlington RG9/764 folio 72 pg 17
Joseph Joel head mar 30 labourer b. Middx, Stanwell
Martha wife 28 b. ?
Henry son 8 b. Uxbridge
Rebecca dau 4 b. Harlington
Thomas brother 24 labourer b. Stanwell
James Davis lodger 40 b. ?
;)
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Osprey, That's brilliant!
Perhaps I should be looking into Scottish connections, not Jewish ones...
Not a very exciting link this, but I did google "Makala" just now:
http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Makala.html
It means "set at liberty", and has Hawaiian associations. Perhaps someone in the GRIGGS family had been there as a sailor?
keith
N.B Makala was fairly popular as a forename between 1997 and 1999, but not particularly in the 1850's in England
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John,
Congratulations on a splendid piece of detective work from - can't quite work out from where in the world you might be!
Anyway, that 1873 marriage for a Henry House JOEL and a Makala GRIGGS looks exactly the right one. I wonder what the origin of her forename is then, might it be biblical; it doesn'r appear in my Oxford Names Companion.
I think the 1852 Dec quarter marriage between a Henry JOEL and a Martha HOUSE in the Staines Reg. district must be the correct one too for this family.
And I think that the likelihood that Martha had Henry before that marriage took place, is the best theory at the moment.
Not to go to far off topic: I am in New York City. I searched Mahalah on the Internet and found a Hebrew-English dictionary that gives these definitions of the name:
1. From Mahalath, sickness; a company of dancers; a harp
2. (disease), one of the three children of Hammoleketh the sister of Gilead. (1 Chronicles 7:18)
3. Grandson of Manasseh 1Ch 7:18.
I looked at the King James bible and found Mahalah in 1 Chronicles 7:18, but whose child he was is unclear because the name comes in a long list of descendancies.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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FreeBMD shows a Henry House born Uxbridge Mar qtr 1852, which agrees with the place of birth for the Henry given in the 1861 census.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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All very interesting, John, and thanks for the name research...
I think that the March quarter 1852 birth registration looks spot on now. Interesting that when I sent away for the birth certificate for one of Ellen JOEL's sons (became THATCHER after her marriage in 1898), even though he was born in late August, his parents took the whole 6 weeks to register the birth, which then appeared in the December quarter.
What I'm saying is, can't discount the fact that Henry HOUSE might actually have been born late in 1851, with his birth registered early in 1852.
Things getting considerably clearer, though,
keith
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Keith: I think a delay in registering Henry's birth could be a possibility. Someone having a child out of wedlock might understandably have been reluctant to register the birth (though that's looking at the issue from a Victorian's perspective).
Earlier in the thread there was some discussion of Jewish naming patterns. What I've learned from my Jewish friends is that families might name a child for someone but would chose a name that only began with the first letter of the namesake's name. I mention that because I was wondering if Martha House might not have had Jewish antecedents. How else to account for her familiarity with obscure names from the First Book of Chronicles?
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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John,
Many thanks again for all that...
I think I might try and trace back Martha HOUSE's family and see what I come up with.
keith
p.s. Perhaps I ought to look into Makala GRIGGS' family too, while I'm at it. I also thought that JOEL might have been a Jewish name before I began this thread...
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Keith: My last reply was logical, but my command of the facts was faulty. When I mentioned what I knew of Jewish traditions in naming a child, I had in the back of my mind that Martha House might have had Jewish forebears because Henry Joel's wife was named Mahalah. But Martha House Joel is related to Mahalah Griggs only by marriage (mother in law). Martha had nothing to do with Mahalah's naming. Ergo you can open the window and throw out my last reply.
One thing: we have to keep in mind that England in the 1830s, 1840s, 1850s was quite religious in some respects, and Biblical names were commonly given to Christian children.
I think I give up for today.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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John,
But you've been a huge help to me - and I need to keep re-reading the thread myself, as in fact that marriage you found for 1873 was for a Mahalah, not a Makala, and I've probably been barking up slightly the wrong tree when looking for definitions of forenames...
Anyway, as you say, probably enough on this topic for today. Think I'll send the thread to the gentleman who started this all off by wanting to know more about his grandmother Ellen JOEL, and see what comments he has to make - perhaps some remembered family tales that might help.
keith
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Sorry, this is not really a reply but the only Chat that I found discussing the House surname.
One of the most frustrating things is trying to research such a surname that is a usual English word in such common use.
Does anyone have any good ideas for researching ancestors with such a name on the Internet?
Many thanks.....
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I see that the original post was started in 2009, however I will put the below in:-
HOUSE, HENRY -
GRO Reference: 1852 M Quarter in UXBRIDGE UNION Volume 03A Page 11
No mother's maiden name given which would suggest he was illegitimate.
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Ellen's birth from the GRO website
JOEL, ELLEN mmn HOUSE
GRO Reference: 1872 S Quarter in ETON, BUCKS Volume 03A Page 463