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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: seahall on Friday 16 January 09 12:13 GMT (UK)
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Hi All
My friend has been sent a generation record of a William and Matilda Gwynne child James born in IRELAND.
Can anyone please direct me to any source that may help me find where.
I have tried the LDS site yet can no see any information to assist.
T.I.A.
Sandy
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full civil registration started in 1864 - so too late for the birth of James.
to go back earlier you would need to know a place - probably county, townland or parish... and religion to check parish registers - if available
Gwynne does not sound like a common name here so maybe a search of Griffith Valuation might give some clues as to location :
http://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/gv_family_search_form.php
this is a land valuation for taxation purposes - carried out between 1847 and 1864, and includes all the occupiers of land owners and long term lease holders. edited 22nd Jan 09
Shane
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Hi
I have looked on the IGI but couldnt find anything. I think with Irish research a location is essential as otherwise it can be tricky if they were from Ireland.
Ben
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as far as I know IGI only includes extracted (civil) info for 1864 to about 1880,
and not that many parish register extracts. Anything else on family search is submitted data - with very patchy coverage
Shane
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Gwynne entries from Pigots commercial directory of 1824 :
W. J. Gwynn 4, upper Dorset-street, Dublin - Attorney
Joseph Gwynne, King-st, Kilkenny - Tailor
Patrick Gwynne, William-st, Kilkenny - Tailor
Geo. Gwynn, Cork - Plumber
Robt. Gwynn, Main-street, Mallow, Co. Cork Saddle & Harness Maker
-- Gwynne , Mill-row, Antrim Town - Attorney
Rev. Stephen Gwynne, rector, Glebe, Larne
John Gwynne esq, Bishop St., Londonderry (Gentry & Clergy section)
Richard Gwynn , Main-st, Strabane - Tailor
Shane
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Hi
That W Gwynne in Dublin looks promising.
It is possible he was of Welsh extraction as Gwynne is a Welsh name.
Ben
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Hi Shane/Ben.
Thank you both for the information you have listed and linked to.
It is greatly appreciated.
I am afraid that my friend only received what is listed above and I
totally agree a place would have helped greatly. :)
As James moved to Lanarkshire and married there, all links from then
on are known.
It is the Irish connection that I would not accept as factual without
knowing the source, which we don't.
Thanks again if I can pin the place down I will add to topic.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy,
James Gwynne and Elisabeth 'Betsy' Dale were my 3 x Great Grandparents. Their daughter Agnes, born c.1854 in Shotts was my 2 x Great Grandmother.
James and Elisabeth are recorded has having been born in Ireland on one of the Census records. It just states 'Ireland', rather than a place. I can't remember which Census but I'll check tomorrow when I'm able to access the PC, rather than the laptop I'm using tonight.
I know of a couple of people who had/have William and James born in Wales, but I haven't seen any proof of this, although it is apparently a Welsh name.
Part of the problem is that is has been spelled as Gwynne/Gwyn/Gwynn/Guin/Guyan/Gwine and Quin!!
Best wishes
Rockford
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Hi Rockford
Thank you so much for replying and more so for being a link to the same family.
Looking at the generations they are also my friends 3gt grandparents.
The lineage is through from James of 1824 to John Gwynne of 1853 daughter Mary
Gwynne born in 1878 who married James Whyte.
Thanks again and I look forward to hearing from you.
Sandy
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Hi again Rockford. :)
I can not thank you enough on mine and especially my friend Patricias behalf
for the amazing amount of information you have shared with her in an instant.
I have been helping people to trace their Family Histories for over 24 years and
feel you have been more than generous with the information you have given
Patricia so quickly.
I will try and get some original documents to share with you so it is not just one way. :)
Thanks again.
Also to Rootschat for enabling us to make the connection.
Sandy
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Hello from New Zealand. Although 13 years on since this subject was last discussed, I too am interested in William and Matilda and their son James who married Elizabeth (Elisabath, Betsy, Bessie) Dale.
Is there any update on the information of 2009 and the record that substantiates it?
Happy Christmas one and all
Scott
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Hello Scott
It is indeed a long time since we last discussed William and Matilda Gwynne! I don't think Sandy (Seahall) and I have been in touch since.
The record that confirmed that James Gwynne (son of William and Matilda) was born in Ireland was the 1871 Census, when he and his wife Betsy/Bessie/Elizabeth Dale (also born Ireland) were living at West Glentore Cottage, New Monkland Parish. This is north of Airdrie, and just to the north of the village of Greengairs. They are transcribed as James and Elizabeth Gwynne.
The various misspellings of Gwynne can make it really hard to find the family on the ScotlandsPeople site
The records / transcriptions I have seen are:
1849 Marriage record for James Gwynne and Betsy Dale in Airdrie/New Monkland. This is likely to be a record of Banns being proclaimed rather than the actual marriage, but the date on the record is 31/07/1849. James is indexed as James Giveen. The actual handwriting isn't much better, and could be read as Giveen, Gwan, Gwiin, Gween.
1851 Census [James / Betsy]
From Ancestry, they are listed as born Ireland, no place given. They are listed as Quin, and Betsy is recorded as Elizabeth. They at at East Blacktongue [which is near Wester Glentore] in New Monkland Parish.
1861 Census [James / Betsy]
This is an Ancestry transcription, and also states both James and Betsy [transcribed as Bessie this time] were born in Ireland, but no specific place given. They are living at 48 Aitchison Street, Airdrie.
Ancestry has indexed this record as Quen, and ScotlandsPeople has indexed them as Quin.
1871 Census - as noted at the top of the message.
James dies in 1878
1881 Census [Betsy]
Betsy is the head of the household, living at 61 Greengairs, New Monkland parish, with 3 daughters, 1 son, 1 granddaughter, and a lodger. Birthplace is again just given as Ireland and she is transcribed as Eliz Gwynn.
1891 Census [Betsy]
This time, Betsy has been transcribed by Ancestry as Elizabeth Guyne, living at Blacktongue Rows, with her son Joseph and three grandchildren. Birthplace is again just Ireland.
Betsy died in 1908 at Larkhall, so she must be on the 1901 Census somewhere. However, my notes show that I hadn't found her at the time I was in touch with Sandy, and a quick look this afternoon hasn't turned up a 1901 record for her either. I'll keep looking, and update this message if I find one!
I hope that makes sense and is of some use to you.
Best wishes
Brian
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HI Scott-Rockford.
Good to see you have a connection to each other.
Sadly (Patricia) Patti died in 2010 and I miss her still daily.
Sandy
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Hi Brian
Family research keeps trucking on. There is no doubt about that. Sad to see that Patricia has passed on. I sadly made the mistake on starting on this journey too late in life to gain knowledge from my parents and elderly relatives. People with an interest in genealogy are so very very helpful ... none more so than yourself.
I have printed off your reply and will digest it over the next couple of days. Have a happy Christmas ... I will be in touch
Regards
Scott
from way down under
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Hello
Glad to have been able to pass the information on.
@Seahall - I know from our past communication how much your friendship with Patti meant to you, and it's lovely that you remember her often. I think I remember you saying how surprised she was to see herself as a young girl in one of the wedding photos I sent you, and I'm sure you will have many memories of her.
My great, great grandmother was Agnes Gwynne [c1854 - 1912], the daughter of James and Betsy. I think it's wonderful that 100 years after she died, family connections are still being made, as these unexpected contacts are a part of this hobby that I really enjoy.
I meant to say in my email yesterday that I think I may have found a brother of James Gwynne living nearby in Airdrie.
A William Gwin [indexed by ScotlandsPeopl as GUIM], aged 27 married Margaret Grant, a 27 year old widow, on 11th August 1857 at Airdrie. William was a Miner, and gave his parents as William Gwin, Soldier, and Matilda Gwin [no other maiden name given]. Margaret's parents were Walter Grant and Margaret Millar. Interesting, Walter is show as "dead", but no such annotation is given for William's parents, indicating that he must have known or believed that they were still alive at that point.
Tracing them through the 1861 Census at Slamannan (where, inexplicably, William is recorded as William Thornton), and 1871 (Greengairs, New Monkland) William is recorded as born in Ireland.
William dies on 14th March 1880 at Baird's Rows, Bothwellpark, and on his death record his father is recorded as William Gwynne, Coal Miner, [deceased], with no mother's details provided. I haven't traced Margaret Grant's death yet, but in 1881 she has moved to East Lothian and is working as a Farm Servant, with adult daughters Martha, aged 19, and Elizabeth, aged 17. All three are indexed by Ancestry as GUIEN.
This doesn't add anything re the birthplace discussion for William / Matilda or James / Betsy, but I thought the potential link to William Gwynne who married in 1857 at Airdrie and the reference to his father being a soldier was interesting to mention.
Best wishes
Brian
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My son-in-law is a Gwynne.
Have traced his line back to Charles Gwynne (b1765, Bridgenorth, Shropshire).
Family were in Oldham by 1891.
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Goodness I have just found this link.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01s03/
Interesting reading.
Sandy
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My son-in-law is a Gwynne.
Have traced his line back to Charles Gwynne (b1765, Bridgenorth, Shropshire).
Family were in Oldham by 1891.
Hello,
I'm sure we are all related somehow!
With Gwyn meaning White in Welsh, it does seem that the surname originated there and using some websites that show a 'heatmap' of where the name is most common, Wales and to a much lesser extent, Ireland, seem to be the hotspots.
Although my Gwynne folks have an Irish connection rather than a Welsh one, the reference to William Gwynne being a soldier opens up the possibility that he may have arrived in Ireland from elsewhere. That's certainly the case with another branch of my family.
Some of my Gwynne relations moved from Kirkcaldy and Stirling to Worcester and Kidderminster in the early 20th century, but I've no evidence yet from any travel the other way. The attraction for the move south was continued employment in the carpet industry, in which various members of the family had worked in Scotland.
I haven't spent a lot of time trying to established the family tree beyond James Gwynne and Bessie Dale, as the sheer number of permutations of spelling make it very hard to be definitive - especially once the confusion with Quin starts making an appearance! It makes my research on my Smith line seem so much easier :)
@Seahall - I hadn't made the connection to the chat earlier in the year on TalkingScot - at least the information I've given in both places matches!
Best wishes
Brian
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Well I have some new info that I did not have yesterday. I now have Joseph Gwynne 1890 soldier record.
Also Joseph on the 1911 and 1921 census info.
Still researching as I can send to Patti's relatives.
Sandy
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Now found Elizabeth on the 1901. Phew that took some searching and she was in front of me all the time lol.
Sandy
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Now found Elizabeth on the 1901. Phew that took some searching and she was in front of me all the time lol.
Sandy
Where was she, Sandy? She has eluded me so far!
Best wishes
Brian
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Look for Elisabeth Quin, Back Row.
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I take it you have found it now Rockford.
Sandy
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I think I have but can't get a copy of the certificate until next week. As a relative beginner I find it fascinating how you experienced researchers track down information
All the best for 2023.
Scott
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I take it you have found it now Rockford.
Sandy
Thank you, yes I have.
Hiding in plain sight, right enough. No idea why it's taken so long for me to find her there.
Best wishes
Brian
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All the best for 2023 to you too Scott.
If I can help you with anything that Rockford can't just ask.
Sandy
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My son-in-law is a Gwynne.
Have traced his line back to Charles Gwynne (b1765, Bridgenorth, Shropshire).
Family were in Oldham by 1891.
Hello,
I'm sure we are all related somehow!
With Gwyn meaning White in Welsh, it does seem that the surname originated there and using some websites that show a 'heatmap' of where the name is most common, Wales and to a much lesser extent, Ireland, seem to be the hotspots.
Although my Gwynne folks have an Irish connection rather than a Welsh one, the reference to William Gwynne being a soldier opens up the possibility that he may have arrived in Ireland from elsewhere. That's certainly the case with another branch of my family.
Some of my Gwynne relations moved from Kirkcaldy and Stirling to Worcester and Kidderminster in the early 20th century, but I've no evidence yet from any travel the other way. The attraction for the move south was continued employment in the carpet industry, in which various members of the family had worked in Scotland.
I haven't spent a lot of time trying to established the family tree beyond James Gwynne and Bessie Dale, as the sheer number of permutations of spelling make it very hard to be definitive - especially once the confusion with Quin starts making an appearance! It makes my research on my Smith line seem so much easier :)
@Seahall - I hadn't made the connection to the chat earlier in the year on TalkingScot - at least the information I've given in both places matches!
Best wishes
Brian
Hi my ancestors are also Matilda gwynne, James Gwynne, Elizabeth Dale, John Gwynne.
Suzi09
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Hello Suzi09
We must be cousins too! If there is anything that you think I may be able to help with in your family research, please let me know
Best wishes
Rockford